Sylvia Browne is an ATHEIST??

[kittynh]

Reading the latest article from Robert Lancasters site (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/novusspiritus_thesefreaks.shtml) I was struck by a puzzling question. How can Sylvia Browne claim to be the leader of a religion and yet behave in the way she does? Those of you that know my own personal story (though with another psychic, who is mentioned in the article) know that I know the personal and deep tragedy these supposed psychics can cause with their "heavenly powers". Yet there is always that arguement that THEY think it is real. THEY think God has allowed the dead to talk to THEM. I really haven't bought it myself, but I figured it could be a possibility.

But the more I read Robert Lancasters site, the more I don't buy it. It seems to me that if you KNEW GOD had picked you to communicate with the dead, it would be a very humbling experience. Money, fame, material things, that would really mean nothing. Heck, you would have dead people TELLING you that all the time. "heaven here is wonderful and we are all at peace" you know what the dead are always saying. They never say "hey, go get a big automobile and some plastic surgery, that's really important".

How would you treat other people? Awfully nice. Heck, you KNOW God has allowed a whole bunch of dead people to keep in close communication with you. Certainly one or two of them is going to say "you know that Sylvia? She charged my mother $200 to talk to me! And you don't want to know what she says about those nice people from the church in Delaware!" I would rather think if Sylvia believed, she would worry about what the heck is going to happen when one day she faces the God that gave her this "gift". This very lucrative and financially enriching gift. At the very least she would quit smoking to stave off that day as long as possible!

Yet, she doesn't seem worried at all. Is it possible that Sylvia has no belief in an afterlife? No fear of an avenging God as she simply does not believe in a God?

Now, before the blast from all my atheist friends, I want to say that I had a hard time even thinking this. All my atheist friends from Mr.Randi to everyone I've met at all the TAM meetings have been warm, wonderful, nice, generous. In fact, my own daughter is an atheist. She is the most warm and genuine human being I know, and I admire her more than anyone else I know. What made it hard for me to think of Sylvia as having no religious beliefs was that I have a hard time of thinking of any atheists as BAD.

The point is that almost every atheist that will outright tell you they are an atheist is a good person to be trusted. Because it takes a lot of bravery to come right out and say that. A lot of people fudge "well I don't belong to a church" or "I'm just not into religion". But someone that comes out and says "I am an atheist" is pretty much putting it all on the line. They are being honest, and willing to take the prejudice and sometimes even revulsion that comes from that admission.

I have a saying "Atheists are good for nothing" and it takes a bit of thinking to GET IT. It's not an insult, it's a compliment.

But certainly as there are bad Christians and probably bad Buddhists and bad Pastafarians, I imagine there must be bad atheists. So maybe she can do WHAT she does the WAY she does it, because she is an BAD atheist?

But then I went, hmmmmm, no. I remembered all the Popes that had kids and sold indulgences. I remember the Crusades where religion was warped for political reasons. I remember the conversion of the natives in the New World. I remember people sitting idly by during WWII and the horrors of Bosnia.

I guess Sylvia Browne can believe in God. I guess she CAN somehow, like so many through history, do what I and others might consider truly evil acts (like charging a family to talk to a dead relative, Gods ok with Mastercard and VISA) and yet still believe in God.

I'm not so sure God believes in Sylvia Browne anymore! I think he probably stopped a long time ago.

And so I felt humbled myself, because it was wrong of me to think that a really bad person HAD to be an atheist or how could they face their own death one day. HA! Believers have been doing this throughout history. Religion or the lack of religion in your life does not determine your behavior. Bad is bad. Wrong is wrong. We make our own choice to hurt others or not.

Robert Lancaster, THANK YOU. You are doing good work. You have made the choice to do good, and at no financial gain to yourself. If there is a God, He's probably reading your site

[ChristineR]

Many religions claim that the wicked will be punished in an afterlife, and many religious claim that they feel that threat and behave themselves accordingly. Yet the religious are no better behaved than the secular. Perhaps its because what they really claim is that people they don't like will be punished in the afterlife. Me and my friends are going to heaven.

Sylvia Browne's religion makes me think of those what-if, do-it-yourself things that are common among neo-pagans. They don't really believe that there's a beautiful woman running around on the planet Venus, and they don't really think that she casts spells to make you feel sexy. They think instead that sex is a major psychic force and that the sum total of human thoughts are personified by, or perhaps even manifested as the goddess of love. To Sylvia and company, the fundamental organizing principle of the human psyche is the father and mother, so they get themselves gods.

If I recall correctly, if Sylvia is completely sincere in her beliefs, she thinks that at worst she will be reincarnated. She'll get to choose her new life, and perhaps she will choose to be the parent of a kidnapped child so that she can learn what it's like to be strung out by a fake psychic. But more likely she is planning to choose a quiet, happy incarnation as far away from James Randi and Robert Lancaster as is possible.

[thaiboxerken]

She knows she's fake, I'm sure. However, that doesn't mean she has to be atheist because of it. Perhaps she thinks her god will forgive her as long as she asks for it before death. The christian "get of of hell free" card comes to mind. She could be atheist as well and just has no ethical concerns. Her god could be Loki and likes for her to be deceptive.

[jimlintott]

Judge people based on what they do, not on what they say they believe.

[Apology]

Just as religion is not proof positive of morality, neither is atheism I'm afraid.

People are still arguing about what group should accept Hitler. There's been argument that he was a Catholic (his original and best-documented faith) but evidence shows that he did not practice in adulthood. Much of his writing indicates he was strongly anti-Christian, but atheists don't want to claim him either. Part of membership in a group is accepting the fact that some members may prove to be an embarrassment to the group sometime in the future.

I don't think we really have any proof either way what Sylvia believes since we do have evidence that she will say whatever it takes to convince her supporters. Frauds come from every walk of life. If she is indeed an atheist, her fraudulent behavior shouldn't reflect on atheism as a group. If people try to make that case, then you just remind them about all the religious frauds in history and ask them if they really think it's fair if you hold all that against them.

[TheAnachronism]

You know, it's really odd.

I was thinking the exact same thing about Sylvia after reading Robert's article, and was even going to post something of the sort here.

I've heard it professed that MANY followers of NS have seen the real side of Sylvia, but ignore it to some extent in order to focus on spirituality. I wonder if any of them have ever thought about whether or not SB is an atheist.

[thaiboxerken]

Proof positive of morality? WTF?

[Apology]

Proof positive of morality? WTF?

Membership in either group does not automatically confer "moral" status on its members. This is what I meant by "proof positive". It's a figure of speech.

[kittynh]

Yeah Robert Lancasters site has opened up the private life of a very public psychic. What is coming out isn't very pretty.

What bothers me is the sad fact that most "mainstream" religions are afraid to take on Sylvia Browne and her warped view of what is most sacred to them.

I'm so proud to be a part of JREF, and to know Robert Lancaster.


The best part is reading at Roberts site that Sylvia keeps tabs on not only his site, but JREF. Well Sylvia...this threads for you.

[lolurigeller]

Judge people based on what they do, not on what they say they believe.

Yup, Sylvia's an atheist for sure if she's knowingly commitng fraud.

[Macoy]

Not so much atheists, but more likely egoists.

Like ron hubbard, hitler, osama bin laden, mother teresa, and pretty much all other cult leaders, sb's ego has inflated to fill her entire universe, so while there's no room for god, it's not quite atheism.

[kittynh]

Sylvia is her own god. Much like Oprah, only Oprah does some good stuff too.

[kittynh]

I just enjoy bumping this as I picture Sylvia and her minions logging on here and I want them to see the thread title.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I've often wondered if frauds that know they are frauds still retain the belief in the religions they exploit.

Like Sylvia Browne- she knows her "church" is nothing but a money sucking con and knows her "powers" that "come from God" are total bull as well as we do but does she still consider herself a Gnostic Christian? A Christian?

Benny Hinn is probably an atheist and I'm sure alot of televangelists are cynical nonbelievers in it just for the money.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Being an atheist doesn't automatically make you a good person any more than being a theist does (or anymore than being an atheist automatically makes you a bad person).

You can be an atheist and be anything from a monster to a very highly flawed person. Cases in point: Joseph Stalin and Woody Allen.

[thaiboxerken]

Yup, Sylvia's an atheist for sure if she's knowingly commitng fraud.

Yes, and murderers are always christian. :rolleyes:

[thaiboxerken]

Not so much atheists, but more likely egoists.

Like ron hubbard, hitler, osama bin laden, mother teresa, and pretty much all other cult leaders, sb's ego has inflated to fill her entire universe, so while there's no room for god, it's not quite atheism.

I'm pretty sure 100% of all those mentioned by name were theists.

[thaiboxerken]

Benny Hinn is probably an atheist and I'm sure alot of televangelists are cynical nonbelievers in it just for the money.


What do you base this absurd notion on?

[Hindmost]

It is most likely impossible to determine what is in the heart and mind of a person like sylvia. (or any other of the really creepy people) However, christianity always gives one a free pass...you can do what you want and then--10 seconds before judgement, ask for forgiveness and receive it. I have always wondered how many christians have used this to justify whatever they have done on planet earth. sylvia may be of that ilk.

glenn

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

What do you base this absurd notion on?

This movie makes me think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe

[thaiboxerken]

So a documentary of one guy makes you think all frauds of this ilk must be atheist?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

This guy was an atheist and a con man preacher for years before coming clean. Based on his expose of the world of Pentecostal preaching, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find that many of these people are fake evangelists. Con men who realized what the money was in religious scams, not Christians who realized how much more money they could make and became con men.

[ChristineR]

The overwhelming majority of evangelists and faith healers are sincere. Marjoe Gortner began as a child preacher and must have been sincere as he could not possibly have known any better. Even Tammy Fae Baker, who was an out and out crook, appears from her reality show appearances to have been sincere in her faith.

The truth is that its not all that easy to go up there day after day and rob people. You have considerable theological knowledge and considerable preaching skills. Here's a podcast (http://infidelguy.libsyn.com/?search_string=hinn&Submit=Search&search=1) interviewing two guys who went to work for Benny Hinn for a laugh and were horrified and depressed by the endless parade and sick and desperate people. So as cons go, it's not a fun one.

My best estimate of Benny Hinn is that he started out sincere and has now gone whole hog crooked. He uses various stage techniques and magic tricks that indicate he is consciously deceiving. But I also think that Kennedy, Falwell, the Baker's, Swaggert, Robertson, and the majority of others are sincere in their beliefs.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't think you can have the techniques and tricks these guys do and still believe in, first and foremost, spreading religion. I mean, the things they do I think only someone very deluded or a cynical nonbeliever could do. You can't con people like this and not know what you're doing.

I disagree about the considerable theological knowledge but the considerable preaching skills are all too true.

[thaiboxerken]

The problem is, minnie, that the "get out of hell free" card let's christians lie, cheat, steal and murder and still be true believers.

[Walter Wayne]

Yes, and murderers are always christian. :rolleyes:
Well, they all seem to find religion before getting to the parole hearing anyways. ;)

[ChristineR]

Yeah, partly it's the "get out of hell free" part but mostly it's "for the greater good." Tammy Faye Baker was living in a huge mansion and all, but she also believed that the money she was cheating people out of was going to go into a sort of Christian Disneyland. The numbers didn't add up, but that didn't stop them. I think they kept telling themselves that they could continue taking a huge cut and continue putting the leftovers into the actual resort, and that some how God would put in the sewers for free.

About theology...there's theology and there's theology. These sort of lowest common denominator Christians will teach some pretty unsound doctrines, like Biblical inerrancy. That requires them to know a lot of lame apologetics. It would make a real theology student groan, but in my experience they are familiar with a huge body of lameness that has been built up over the years.

Based on the Christians I have known over the years, the majority simply accept the theology as they've been taught it and never bother reading the Bible, except for those Bible study type things where they read one chapter and then skip around looking for verses that have some nominal connection to their teaching. The classic example is the claim that we need to keep the ten commandments but not the Levitical laws. That's the kind of argument these guys learn inside and out.

Most evangelists do not use the sort of out and out conjuring tricks that you'll find in a Benny Hinn show. It's one of life's little ironies that the really impressive guys are the ones that are out and out frauds. The same certainly holds true for psychics and tarot card reads.

[kittynh]

Well, they all seem to find religion before getting to the parole hearing anyways. ;)

SO TRUE!

Then they get out and preach some MORE!


I remember reading that Peter Popoff and his wife would take their kids to Catholic Mass every Sunday.

So maybe believing as Catholics do that THEY are the only true religion... fooling those idiot non Catholics is alright. But I found it absurd that they would take their kids to Catholic Mass. It was like he knows he's not a real religion, just a money making scam artist, but he wants God for his kids. And he can't give them God, only the Catholic faith can.

[ChristineR]

That's interesting kittynh, where did you read that Popoff was a Catholic? Certainly his ministry is at odds with the Catholic church. I'm quite sure that the priests would have something to say to him in confessional!

One possibility is that is wife is Catholic, and that to avoid her ex-communication he agreed to let the children be raised Catholic. However she was the voice on the other end of the hearing aid when Randi exposed them on the Tonight Show, so she might get in trouble with the Catholics over that....

[karmicserenade]

I really think Sylvia is sooo full of herself, that she does not even consider what she is doing as wrong. I am pretty positive also that she is not smart enough to be an atheist.

This would imply that just because she does not believe, she can knowingly fool others in good conscience. I personally feel she is just a godless twit, who likes to scam spiritual people, then laugh at them after.

It makes me feel sorry for her Grandaughter who is supposed to take over the organization after Sylvia is long gone (has anyone ever put two and two together about Angelina? The whole story of her being her Grandmother reincarnated, then Sylvia writing that she still communicates with Ada Coil?? Seems to me that she contradicts herself yet again!)

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Yeah, partly it's the "get out of hell free" part but mostly it's "for the greater good." Tammy Faye Baker was living in a huge mansion and all, but she also believed that the money she was cheating people out of was going to go into a sort of Christian Disneyland. The numbers didn't add up, but that didn't stop them. I think they kept telling themselves that they could continue taking a huge cut and continue putting the leftovers into the actual resort, and that some how God would put in the sewers for free.

They also rationalize their wealth as a reward from their god for their righteousness. Something like: "God approves of what I'm doing, because He's bestowed great blessings ($$$) on me."

[Apology]

They also rationalize their wealth as a reward from their god for their righteousness. Something like: "God approves of what I'm doing, because He's bestowed great blessings ($$$) on me."

I think this is the category Tammy Faye Baker fell into. I don't think she had any control over the money and genuinely believed that the reason they were rolling in bucks was because God loved them. I don't think she ever considered the fact that Jim might have stolen the money from the congregation until it was much too late. I also don't think she was terribly bright, so it's not a horrible stretch to imagine that she just got tricked. Tammy Faye is sort of a red herring because we'll never really know if she was just a stooge or not. I tend to think that she was, and her behavior after the fact seems to support this notion.

I also tend to believe that people like Jim Baker and Sylvia Browne are the gods of their own religions, and any resemblance to any other religion is purely fraudulent in nature.

[kittynh]

just bumping in case Sylvia pops on here...

I want her to scream when she sees the title of this thread

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Well, as it's such a good cause, I'l do my bit to keep this thread at the top...

Perhaps it ought to be a "Sticky"?

YBW

[Phlebas]

I really think Sylvia is sooo full of herself, that she does not even consider what she is doing as wrong.

I think this is pretty close to the truth. I'm sure she would say she is helping people and bringing them comfort and all that stuff -- especially those people who are willing to count the flimsiest of coincidences as a win.

Or she'ss brainwashed herself into thinking that her ridiculous fees are actually donations.

Robert could answer this better than any of us, I'm sure, but I wonder how much she's deluded herself into thinking she really DOES have some sort of power. Clearly she doesn't believe it so strongly that she will submit to Randi's challenge, but she might sometimes think that she's getting hints that often lead to successsful "other avenues of investigation." With the standard of evidence set remarkably low, it's not hard to talk yourself into that.

God is ridiculously easy to fool too, by all reports.

[ponderingturtle]

Benny Hinn is probably an atheist and I'm sure alot of televangelists are cynical nonbelievers in it just for the money.

Cynical sure, but why does that equate to nonbeliever? I am thinking about Marjoe, in that he was a total cynic about what he was doing, but was still not an atheist.

Marjoe being the best example I can think of where a evangelist came clean.


You can be an atheist and be anything from a monster to a very highly flawed person. Cases in point: Joseph Stalin and Woody Allen.

Stalin was a Stalinist, again it is hard to tell what personal beliefs are in such individuals.

If using religion for personal advantage makes one an atheist then most religions are founded by atheists. I don't think that makes sense, so I get rid of the assumption that people must fit their behavior into their theology.

[ponderingturtle]

This movie makes me think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe

He was not an atheist though. At least the movie never gave me that impression. More of a hippy deist or something like that. He never seemed to lack a belief in any form of god, just not much of a christian one.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think you can have the techniques and tricks these guys do and still believe in, first and foremost, spreading religion. I mean, the things they do I think only someone very deluded or a cynical nonbeliever could do. You can't con people like this and not know what you're doing.

I disagree about the considerable theological knowledge but the considerable preaching skills are all too true.

The problem is that you are incorrectly assuming that just because they don't believe in what they are preaching, means that they must be atheists.

You seem to think that only atheists are capable of that level of hypocrisy, and that does not seem to be true.

[Darth Rotor]

I want her to scream when she sees the title of this thread
"I want to hear her scream."

Rumor has it that the last time she screamed like that was during a visitation from the spirit of John Holmes. She discovered that the physical and spiritual can indeed interact. She wasn't so much channeling as he was ploughing. Poor dear, she walked with a limp for a week after that. Can you blame her for her subsequent adherence to her schtick?

DR

(This was a humor attempt. For those who think John Holmes actually returned from the spirit world to practice his profession with Sylvia, I suggest liberal dosages of Everclear(TM) to clear up the higher brain function.)

[Silly Green Monkey]

I assume you're referring to the porn star, not the politician?

[Apology]

I assume you're referring to the porn star, not the politician?

I'm not positive, but I do believe he meant both on the same night!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Cynical sure, but why does that equate to nonbeliever? I am thinking about Marjoe, in that he was a total cynic about what he was doing, but was still not an atheist.

Marjoe being the best example I can think of where a evangelist came clean.

Stalin was a Stalinist, again it is hard to tell what personal beliefs are in such individuals.

If using religion for personal advantage makes one an atheist then most religions are founded by atheists. I don't think that makes sense, so I get rid of the assumption that people must fit their behavior into their theology.

Well, I could be wrong but it seems to me that these people are either sincere Christians who over time became major league con artists, like Jerry Falwell, or con artists who jumped aboard the gravy train and became false Christians.

It seems to me that if the person doesn't believe in their own preaching and knows full well how false they and everyone else in the buisness are, they wouldn't take any religion seriously.

Maybe "atheist" isn't the right word for it. Maybe "apathetic" or "irreligious" or just "cynical."

[ponderingturtle]

Well, I could be wrong but it seems to me that these people are either sincere Christians who over time became major league con artists, like Jerry Falwell, or con artists who jumped aboard the gravy train and became false Christians.

It seems to me that if the person doesn't believe in their own preaching and knows full well how false they and everyone else in the buisness are, they wouldn't take any religion seriously.

Maybe "atheist" isn't the right word for it. Maybe "apathetic" or "irreligious" or just "cynical."

I will grant those. But they do not equate to deciding that no god exists.(well I might argue that there is nothing irreligious about hypocrisy)

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

My impression is that they're all basically ME-ists, who get hooked on the power, attention and - of course - the money. :)

I think that the statement, "man (or woman, or in this case, witch :)) created God in his/her own image" was never more true. They worship themselves....

So - I guess I'm agreeing with "cynical".

YBW

[SomeGuy]

I assume you're referring to the porn star, not the politician?

Talk about a rock and a hard place ;-p

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I will grant those. But they do not equate to deciding that no god exists.(well I might argue that there is nothing irreligious about hypocrisy)

I wouldn't call a con man running a religious scam a hypocrite because while he may be fake preacher, he is honest with himself in that he knows he's a fraud.

I'd also imagine someone running an out and out scam would be living a totally secular lifestyle, outside of their public persona. For example, I doubt Sylvia Browne would bother with church if she wasn't running one.

[shalomsteph]

It is most likely impossible to determine what is in the heart and mind of a person like sylvia. (or any other of the really creepy people) However, christianity always gives one a free pass...you can do what you want and then--10 seconds before judgement, ask for forgiveness and receive it. I have always wondered how many christians have used this to justify whatever they have done on planet earth. sylvia may be of that ilk.

glenn

Hmmm....I am a very Reform Jew, and we just completed Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. It says that if you sin, KNOWING you will be forgiven, you WON'T be forgiven. I do believe Christians follow the same "rules" in the Torah...(not the kosher rules, but the "moral" rules)

[ponderingturtle]

I wouldn't call a con man running a religious scam a hypocrite because while he may be fake preacher, he is honest with himself in that he knows he's a fraud.

Then you have just redefined hypocrite.

I'd also imagine someone running an out and out scam would be living a totally secular lifestyle, outside of their public persona. For example, I doubt Sylvia Browne would bother with church if she wasn't running one.

But this isn't about lifestyle this is about belief.

[ponderingturtle]

Hmmm....I am a very Reform Jew, and we just completed Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. It says that if you sin, KNOWING you will be forgiven, you WON'T be forgiven. I do believe Christians follow the same "rules" in the Torah...(not the kosher rules, but the "moral" rules)

How can you not know that you would be forgiven? This forgiveness is not something that is not common knowledge.

[ChristineR]

I am quite certain that Jerry Falwell was 100% sincere and never thought of what he was doing as a con.

For one thing, he wasn't into the whole selling of holy water and non-existent-real-estate time shares thing and was quite critical of those who were. He did not do the sort of hands-on fake healing characteristic of a Benny Hinn.

He made his money through inflammatory books and videos, and of course by soliciting for donations. Throughout it all he gave no sign of not believing that Hillary Clinton, gays, atheists and liberals in general are depraved murderers and criminals. His money went to political causes, often illegally. I'm sure he justified this as for the greater good. If he enjoyed a lavish lifestyle, I'm sure he thought God wanted him to be happy.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Then you have just redefined hypocrite.

But this isn't about lifestyle this is about belief.

I don't think so. A hypocrite is someone who contradicts themselves. Such as a preacher who condemns homosexuals but is gay himself or one who tells others how to behave but solicits a hooker. A person who runs a religious scam is a liar and a cheat but not a hypocrite because he/she isn't fooling himself/herself.

There's a difference between being a liar, which was what Marjoe was, and a hypocrite, which was what someone like Jimmy Swaggert was.

Well, you know that the majority of woos, from tarot card readers to pseudoscientists believe in their own BS (which is very amusing to me, that their biggest con was conning themselves and that they've fallen victims to their own lies) and I would agree that the majority of all clergymen are one hundred percent sincere.

However, just as there are a good deal of palm readers and astrologers who don't believe in themselves any more than we would, it stands to reason there are people in religion who would be the last to buy what they are selling.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Hmmm....I am a very Reform Jew, and we just completed Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. It says that if you sin, KNOWING you will be forgiven, you WON'T be forgiven. I do believe Christians follow the same "rules" in the Torah...(not the kosher rules, but the "moral" rules)


I can answer this, if you really want to hear it.

According to the Catholic priest who taught my Sunday school classes, the key to atonement and forgiveness is sincere regret and repentence. Before God, not whoever is taking your confession. It is not a matter of simple apology; you have to feel real guilt.

If you, say, steal something and just show up and say a few Hail Mary's and you don't feel sincere guilt and sorrow towards the person you stole from but are actually only worried about yourself, the confession is invalid. Cause the priest might not know what's in your heart but God always does.

Of course, this makes me wonder what confession before a clergyman is needed for in the first place, if God's the only judge of forgiveness anyway...

[Hindmost]

Hmmm....I am a very Reform Jew, and we just completed Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. It says that if you sin, KNOWING you will be forgiven, you WON'T be forgiven. I do believe Christians follow the same "rules" in the Torah...(not the kosher rules, but the "moral" rules)

This gives me something to research. Never heard it in my religious classes--not that it wasn't said, but it does make more sense. It would seem to make an awful lot of people de facto atheists including sylvia.

glenn

[PAC]

Reading Sylvia's website and her many statements (a form of humor) it would seem that Sylvia can not claim to fit the definition of monotheist or Christian.
Yet, my Christian fundamentalist relatives love her! She would appear to represent so many things they fear! Good marketing on her part.
They no longer bring her up as I usually respond with some Sylvia data that
drives them nuts. stopsylviabrowne.com is a great source

[Floyt]

The point is that almost every atheist that will outright tell you they are an atheist is a good person to be trusted. Because it takes a lot of bravery to come right out and say that. A lot of people fudge "well I don't belong to a church" or "I'm just not into religion". But someone that comes out and says "I am an atheist" is pretty much putting it all on the line. They are being honest, and willing to take the prejudice and sometimes even revulsion that comes from that admission.

If I may jump in here with a side question - this seems a surprising notion to me, Kitty. I mean the fact that you tend to feel positively towards a person for openly admitting to being atheist, because it shows bravery in the face of prejudice etc. Do you think (if that doesn't sound too trite) that this is an American thing? From my own experiences, in Europe and New Zealand, I'd approach an unknown person with a kind of default categorisation of "disinterested in religion / practical-if-not-intellectual atheist", and would have to re-categorize (and turn down the heretical quips :D ) if the person turned out to be religious.
No automatic brownie points, just because I think it's more the norm than brave exposure. I'd actually say around here it takes more guts and willingness to take sh*t to be openly religious than to be a standard apathetic everyday atheist.
(Which, btw, is not a breed I particularly like. Whether intellectual inquisitiveness leads you to faith or to atheism, it's loads better than just not caring.)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

See, what you call a "practical but not intellectual atheist" or "apathetic everyday atheists", I'd call "irreligious". That's what the majority of the people I've known in my corner of the United States are. They grew up practising no religion, it doesn't appear often one way or another in their world and they just don't care.

An atheist is different. An atheist, whether they have any religious background or not, rejects religion. There are "weak atheists" but they also deny the existence of any deities or belief systems so they are atheists.

Being an agnostic, I personally don't care about anyone's religion or therefore lack of but I, like the OP, respect anyone willing to publicly express an unpopular belief. It shows alot about someone that they are open about their lack of religious beliefs in a society where that's the minority view.

I'd probably say the same thing about, say, a Buddist or Shinto practioner in Kansas, though.

[Floyt]

"Irreligious" might have been the better term, you are right.
So, would the brownie-worthy distinction be between irreligious and openly atheist, rather than religious and (irreligious + atheist)? Fair enough, that seems more sensible.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think so. A hypocrite is someone who contradicts themselves. Such as a preacher who condemns homosexuals but is gay himself or one who tells others how to behave but solicits a hooker. A person who runs a religious scam is a liar and a cheat but not a hypocrite because he/she isn't fooling himself/herself.

There's a difference between being a liar, which was what Marjoe was, and a hypocrite, which was what someone like Jimmy Swaggert was.

Why both did not act in the fashion of their expressed belief. Remember the scene in the beginning when Marjoe is telling the crew how to fake being saved? That would seem to well fit into public stated beliefs not being followed in private.

What makes you think a hypocrite must be fooling themselves? That is not part of the usual definition of hypocrite and in general it is impossible to tell, how do you tell the ones who are fooling themselves to the ones who pretend to?


Well, you know that the majority of woos, from tarot card readers to pseudoscientists believe in their own BS (which is very amusing to me, that their biggest con was conning themselves and that they've fallen victims to their own lies) and I would agree that the majority of all clergymen are one hundred percent sincere.

However, just as there are a good deal of palm readers and astrologers who don't believe in themselves any more than we would, it stands to reason there are people in religion who would be the last to buy what they are selling.

But that still does not mean that they are atheists. You can reject all religion and still not be an atheist. Atheist is about belief in god, and really can be entirely independent of religion.

[thaiboxerken]

An atheist is different. An atheist, whether they have any religious background or not, rejects religion. There are "weak atheists" but they also deny the existence of any deities or belief systems so they are atheists.


Wrong on both accounts. Atheists are simply people that do not believe a god/gods exists. Most americans believe a god exists, they may be irreligious, but that just means the god they believe in (created for themselves) will accept them no matter what they do. People create their own gods, often, whether they admit it or not.

[Apology]

Wrong on both accounts. Atheists are simply people that do not believe a god/gods exists. Most americans believe a god exists, they may be irreligious, but that just means the god they believe in (created for themselves) will accept them no matter what they do. People create their own gods, often, whether they admit it or not.

eenieminniemoe's post describes pretty well what most of the atheists I know profess to believe. They reject religion and deny the existence of God on any level. They profess to believe that there is no God. The fact that they can't prove that God doesn't exist doesn't sway them. There are many atheists like this.

[ponderingturtle]

eenieminniemoe's post describes pretty well what most of the atheists I know profess to believe. They reject religion and deny the existence of God on any level. They profess to believe that there is no God. The fact that they can't prove that God doesn't exist doesn't sway them. There are many atheists like this.

But the point is that we have no way of knowing if Silvia Browne is an atheist, being non religious does not make someone an atheist.

[Apology]

But the point is that we have no way of knowing if Silvia Browne is an atheist, being non religious does not make someone an atheist.

I agree with you entirely. The only one who knows what Sylvia Browne believes is Sylvia Browne. I don't like assigning de facto labels to people.

[bjb]

The fact that they can't prove that God doesn't exist doesn't sway them. There are many atheists like this.

Time for a derail! I would guess that all atheists are not worried about 'disproving' the non-existence of god or gods because it is equally impossible to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Instead, atheists are more interested in the inability of believers to prove the existence of their god. The fact that believers can't prove that God exists doesn't sway them. There are many believers like this.

Atheists are also interested in the fact that believers are convinced that their god is real while the other gods they don't believe are not. But believers are also atheistic in that they reject all gods except the one they happen to believe in. Atheists are 'atheists' because they take one extra step and disbelieve in that one last god.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Atheists are simply people that do not believe a god/gods exists.

You're forgetting about all of the religions in the world that do not have deities. "Not believing in God" is a definition of atheism that's only good in the Western world that wouldn't fit, say, someone raised Taoist who rejected it.

[Apology]

Time for a derail! I would guess that all atheists are not worried about 'disproving' the non-existence of god or gods because it is equally impossible to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Instead, atheists are more interested in the inability of believers to prove the existence of their god. The fact that believers can't prove that God exists doesn't sway them. There are many believers like this.

Atheists are also interested in the fact that believers are convinced that their god is real while the other gods they don't believe are not. But believers are also atheistic in that they reject all gods except the one they happen to believe in. Atheists are 'atheists' because they take one extra step and disbelieve in that one last god.

I understand your point. What I'm saying is, there are many atheists who see the logical fallacy in proclaiming "God does not exists," don't care about the logical fallacy, and continue to simply believe that God doesn't exist. The fact that it's a belief without any more evidence than a belief in God does not change their opinion. I just see certain people trying to explain away strong, gnostic atheism because it doesn't represent what they personally believe, but it actually does exist. The fact that not many people feel this way doesn't make it nonexistant. That's my whole point really.

[ChristineR]

You're forgetting about all of the religions in the world that do not have deities. "Not believing in God" is a definition of atheism that's only good in the Western world that wouldn't fit, say, someone raised Taoist who rejected it.

Sure it would. There are many atheist religions. You may be confusing atheism with naturalism. Many new age religions are both highly supernatural and atheistic, but if Sylvia Browne can be taken at her word she believes in at least a mother and father god figure.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

No. Yes, there are religions that are somehow compatible with atheism, like Hinduism, but it makes no sense to call them "atheistic religions" just because they don't have deities. That's- I think, anyway- a really Western idea.

If you are defining atheism as lack of a belief in God, you are showing yourself to be ignorant of non-Western religion; in fact, all but three religions in the world.

I'm just saying there should be another definition for it that also works for non Abrahamic religions.

[ChristineR]

No. Yes, there are religions that are somehow compatible with atheism, like Hinduism, but it makes no sense to call them "atheistic religions" just because they don't have deities. That's- I think, anyway- a really Western idea.

If you are defining atheism as lack of a belief in God, you are showing yourself to be ignorant of non-Western religion; in fact, all but three religions in the world.

I'm just saying there should be another definition for it that also works for non Abrahamic religions.

I define atheism as lack of belief in God or gods. There are many more than three religions that are not atheistic. I certainly would not call Hinduism atheistic.

Nonetheless, there are atheistic religions. I don't see why western religious concepts even come into it. I'm not even sure you can correctly class Islam, Christianity, and Judaism as "western."

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Why both did not act in the fashion of their expressed belief. Remember the scene in the beginning when Marjoe is telling the crew how to fake being saved? That would seem to well fit into public stated beliefs not being followed in private.

What makes you think a hypocrite must be fooling themselves? That is not part of the usual definition of hypocrite and in general it is impossible to tell, how do you tell the ones who are fooling themselves to the ones who pretend to?

But that still does not mean that they are atheists. You can reject all religion and still not be an atheist. Atheist is about belief in god, and really can be entirely independent of religion.

Well, would you call Uri Geller a hypocrite, then? He knows full well that he's just a third-rate magician but puts on an entirely different act in public. That's not being a hypocrite, though- that's being a fraud.

With all woo woos, you have the ones who believe in what they are doing and those who don't. Michael Shermer says Rosemary Altea must be self-deluded but that Sylvia Browne is a fraud. Same with religious hucksters.

Right you are. No, that you can't know, what someone's personal religious beliefs are.