Elvis And Religion

[DOC]

Here is a list of the King of Rock and Roll's religious recordings:

Amazing Grace • Reach Out To Jesus • He Touched Me • He Knows Just What I Need • Lead Me, Guide Me • How Great Thou Art • His Hand In Mine • I'm Gonna Walk Dem Golden Stairs • In My Father's House • Milky White Way • Known Only To Him • I Believe In The Man In The Sky • Joshua Fit The Battle • Swing Down, Sweet Chariot • Mansion Over The Hilltop • If We Never Meet Again • Working On The Building • Crying In The Chapel • In The Garden • Somebody Bigger Than You Or I • Farther Along • Without Him • So High • Where Could I Go But To The Lord • By And By • If The Lord Wasn't Walking By My Side • Run On • Where No One Stands Alone • We Call On Him • Who Am I? • Life • Only Believe • I've Got Confidence • Seeing Is Believing • He Is My Everything • Bosom Of Abraham • An Evening Prayer • There Is No God But God • A Thing Called Love • I, John • Miracle Of The Rosary • Put Your Hand In The Hand • I Got A Feelin' In My Body • Help Me • If That Isn't Love • Why Me Lord • Farther Along • Oh Happy Day • Bosom Of Abraham • You Better Run • Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus • Nearer My God To Thee • When The Saints Go Marchin' In • Just A Little Talk With Jesus • Jesus Walked That Lonesome Valley • I Shall Not Be Moved • Peace In The Valley • Down By The Riverside • Farther Along • Blessed Jesus • On The Jericho Road • I Just Can't Make It By Myself • I Hear A Sweet Voice Calling • Softly And Tenderly • It Is No Secret • I Believe • Take My Hand, Precious Lord • I Asked The Lord • He • Oh How I Love Jesus • O Lord, Show Me Thy Ways • Hide Thou Me • Sing You Children • ''Let Us Pray • Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child • Where Could I Go But To The Lord • Up Above My Head • Saved • The Lord's Prayer •

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley

[brodski]

And?

Are you saying that Christianty leads crappy acting, obesity and drug use?

[DOC]

And?

Are you saying that Christianty leads crappy acting, obesity and drug use?

No, I just thought it was interesting how the "King of Rock and Roll" had such an obsession with Gospel Music. I also know that people didn't want him to play "Peace in the Valley" on the Ed Sullivan Show, but he insisted on playing it.

[DOC]

And?

Are you saying that Christianty leads crappy acting, obesity and drug use?

Are you saying that Christianity is the cause of crappy acting, obesity, and drug use?

[brodski]

No, I just thought it was interesting how the "King of Rock and Roll" had such an obsession with Gospel Music. Not really, considering his background.


I also know that people didn't want him to play Amazing Grace on the Ed Sullivan
Show, but he insisted on playing it.
Is this true? and if it is, what does it mean or mater?

[plumjam]

No, I just thought it was interesting how the "King of Rock and Roll" had such an obsession with Gospel Music. I also know that people didn't want him to play Amazing Grace on the Ed Sullivan
Show, but he insisted on playing it.

I just hope he insisted in a graceful manner.

[Lonewulf]

Y'know, my grandfather met Elvis once. Called him a "nice young man".

Didn't consider it a big deal. Didn't invite my mom (who was a young girl at the time) for the meeting, either, because Elvis was "just a singer". My mom could've killed him at the time. :p

Either way, what Elvis likes or doesn't like is meaningless to any religious argument. It's an Appeal to Authority, and a rather stupid one at that.

[DOC]

Oh Excuse me Elvis insisted on "Peace in the Valley" on Ed Sullivan not Amazing Grace.

PEACE IN THE VALLEY


Oh well, I’m tired and so weary
But I must go alone
Till the lord comes and calls, calls me away, oh yes
Well the morning's so bright
And the lamp is alight
And the night, night is as black as the sea, oh yes

There will be peace in the valley for me, some day
There will be peace in the valley for me, oh Lord I pray
There'll be no sadness, no sorrow
No trouble, trouble I see
There will be peace in the valley for me, for me

Well the bear will be gentle
And the wolves will be tame
And the lion shall lay down by the lamb, oh yes
And the beasts from the wild
Shall be lit by a child
And I'll be changed, changed from this creature that I am, oh yes

There will be peace in the valley for me, some day
There will be peace in the valley for me, oh Lord I pray
There'll be no sadness, no sorrow
No trouble, trouble I see
There will be peace in the valley for me, for me

http://www.the-synergy.com/lyrics/pvalley.html

[Southwind17]

This is why I don't consider him the King. He's way down my list of possible candidates!

[DOC]

This is why I don't consider him the King. He's way down my list of possible candidates!


Most of these people would disagree with you:

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

[Southwind17]

Most of these people would disagree with you:

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

I'm sure they would. He stays put though!

[DOC]

This website quotes Elvis as saying:

"I believe in the Bible. I believe that all good things come from God.…I don't believe I'd sing the way I do if God hadn't wanted me to. My voice is God's will, not mine."

http://www.thunderstruck.org/elvis.htm

[Seismosaurus]

You know, my next door neighbour is religious too. Should I start a thread about it, do you think?

[Southwind17]

You know, my next door neighbour is religious too. Should I start a thread about it, do you think?

Reconciling religion with that great American icon proving a little hard to stomach?!

[brodski]

Are you saying that Christianity is the cause of crappy acting, obesity, and drug use?

Only in the same way that Christainity is eth casue of rock and roll.

elivs wasa christain. he was "the ring of rock and roll", he was also a crappy actor, died obese and was a prolific drug user.

I can't seem to see a link between any of those things, but you started the thread, what do you think?

[Seismosaurus]

Reconciling religion with that great American icon proving a little hard to stomach?!

Um, no, not really. Coming up with a reason to care is a bit difficult though.

[brodski]

Oh Excuse me Elvis insisted on "Peace in the Valley" on Ed Sullivan not Amazing Grace.


Still looking for both evidence and relivence.

[Foolmewunz]

Yet another strange variation of the 'argument from authority' by DOC.


Considering that most of America was/is Christian, and considering the gospel roots of other luminaries as Ray Charles, why should it be any surprise that Elvis was a Christian?

Other Christians whom I admire for reasons (their musical talent) other than their religion:

Bach
Hayden
Berlioz
Beethoven
Jerry Lee Lewis
Aretha Franklin
Whitney Houston

Atheists/Agnostics whom I don't admire at all, other than their lack of religious belief:

Anton Szandor LaVey
Aldous Huxley
B.F. Skinner
Ayn Rand

[Southwind17]

Um, no, not really. Coming up with a reason to care is a bit difficult though.

I think DOC might be just trolling here, given the absence of any direction in the OP. It's at least provocative though, and, in my opinion, worthy of discussion, not because it's Elvis, but because of the relationship between religion and revered people/icons.

I suspect you're a bit of an Elvis fan and, as such, would rather the matter be quietly disregarded. That's understandable, but not a good reason to dismiss it.

If you wish to be excused from this particular class that's OK with me.

[Southwind17]

Yet another strange variation of the 'argument from authority' by DOC.


Considering that most of America was/is Christian, and considering the gospel roots of other luminaries as Ray Charles, why should it be any surprise that Elvis was a Christian?

Other Christians whom I admire for reasons (their musical talent) other than their religion:

Bach
Hayden
Berlioz
Beethoven
Jerry Lee Lewis
Aretha Franklin
Whitney Houston

Atheists/Agnostics whom I don't admire at all, other than their lack of religious belief:

Anton Szandor LaVey
Aldous Huxley
B.F. Skinner
Ayn Rand

I wonder if it's significant that I've heard of everybody on your 'Christian' list but none on your 'A/A' list, notwithstanding it's a shorter list.

[kmortis]

I wonder if it's significant that I've heard of everybody on your 'Christian' list but none on your 'A/A' list, notwithstanding it's a shorter list.

With your avatar and you've never heard of Anton LeVey?

Foolmewunz, what's your beef with Huxley?


ETA: Oh yeah. To the OP. That list is thouroughly unremarkable considering that he started out as a Gospel singer. In fact, most of Rock and Roll started out with religious roots in the form of African Spirituals (via the Blues), Gospel or traditional songs. This is not unknown, nor is it a sign that there's any validity to religion, in general, or Christianity, specifically. Much like Roger Martinez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance_Rising)'s conversion to Satanism neither detracts from the credability of Christianty, nor adds to the validity of Satanism.

[JoeEllison]

Logical fallacy, DOC loses again.

[Southwind17]

With your avatar and you've never heard of Anton LeVey?

It's true. Maybe I've led a sheltered upbringing around these parts!

[kmortis]

It's true. Maybe I've led a sheltered upbringing around these parts!

Well, don't let Foolmewunz's negatve impression sway you away from investigating him. He was an interesting character.

[Foolmewunz]

Foolmewunz, what's your beef with Huxley?



Nothing, really. Just acting as agent provocateur. I picked four names who've always had considerable pro and con discussion, but who never really even piqued my interest.

I did find Brave New World a little dull... I suppose that's why I include him in the "don't admire" list.

[joobz]

elvis' music is typically boring to me, but I respect him for coming out when he did. He made soul and blues accessible to white america. That's definitely a good thing.

On a side note: Marylin Manson went to catholic school.


ETA: I can assume that DOC starting this thread is as close to an admission that he was completely pwned in the 94% thread.

[grayman]

Elvis served in the Army.

Elvis liked fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

Elvis is an anagram for "lives".

Elvis had a twin.

Elvis made 33 movies.

[Lisa Simpson]

One of the very first threads I participated in here was by a troll who thought that because some astronaut (Buzz Aldrin, I think) is religious, religion must be right. It's comforting to note that people may come and go, but logical fallacies will live on and on and on. Or maybe it's not comforting, but there it is.

[madurobob]

Hmmm... actually, in singing those songs I think Elvis was simply alluding to what most of us already know: Elvis was the Messiah.

"Let me tell you.
Wellllllll...

Elvis is everywhere,
Elvis is everything,
Elvis is everybody,
Elvis is still the King.

...

Man, there's a lot of unexplained phenomenon out there in the world.
Lot of things people say What the heck's going on?
Let me tell you!

Who built the pyramids? ELVIS!
Who built Stonehenge? ELVIS!

Yeah, man you see guys walking down the street pushing shopping carts,
and you think they're talking to Allah, they're talking to themselves?
Man, no they're talking to ELVIS! ELVIS! ELVIS!

You know whats going on in that Bermuda Triangle?
Down in the Bermuda Triangle?
Elvis needs boats. Elvis needs boats. Elvis Elvis Elvis Elvis Elvis Elvis
Elvis needs boats.

Aahh! The Sailing Elvis! Captain Elvis! Commodore Elvis it is!
Yeah man, you know people from outer space, people from outer space they come up to me.
They don't look like like Doctor Spock. They don't look like Klingons, all that Star Trek jive.
They look like Elvis. ELVIS!
Everybody in outer space looks like Elvis.

Cause Elvis is a perfect being.
We are all moving in perfect peace and harmony towards Elvisness

Soon all will become Elvis.
Everything everywhere will be Elvis.

Why do you think they call it evolution anyway?
It's really Elvislution!
Elvislution!

... "
Mojo Nixon, with apologies
Gopc3fgnXDw

[Lisa Simpson]

Everyone knows Elvis is the Taco Prophet of the GTITS. All those religious songs are really sung for the GTITS. Anyone who says different is a heretic and shall be punished with 50 lashes with a churro.

[joobz]

Elvis did have a lot of women screaming the lord's name...
I wonder if you could consider those private one on one revival sessions?

[wollery]

Damn the new rules, if ever there was a thread in need of kittening, this is it! What a waste of bandwidth.

DOC, pointing out that certain people believe in God, no matter who they are, why they're famous, or how famous they are, does absolutely nothing, except show that religion is influential, and a lot of people believe in God. That's it. It's not interesting, except possibly as a point of study for anthropologists.

[Southwind17]

This website quotes Elvis as saying:

"I believe in the Bible. I believe that all good things come from God.…I don't believe I'd sing the way I do if God hadn't wanted me to. My voice is God's will, not mine."

I don't know if this is true, but if it is it's one of the reasons that Elvis is way down my list. Talk about absolving yourself from responsibility, or was he just covering all the bases!

[Foster Zygote]

I see DOC is writing his own parody threads now. How convenient.

[brodski]

I think DOC might be just trolling here, given the absence of any direction in the OP. youre on the money here

It's at least provocative though, how so? Elvis was a Christian- who has denied this, and who finds it a problem? Thai thread is only provocative because of the pattern of posting which doc has.


and, in my opinion, worthy of discussion, not because it's Elvis, but because of the relationship between religion and revered people/icons. which relationship are you talking about?


I suspect you're a bit of an Elvis fan and, as such, would rather the matter be quietly disregarded. how the hell did you get that from his quote- he was comparing Elvis to his next door neighbour in terms of relivence- I really don't see how you made the leap you did.

That's understandable, but not a good reason to dismiss it. firstly it appears to be entirely your fantasy, secondly, dismiss what?


If you wish to be excused from this particular class that's OK with me. And what, pray, do you intend to teach us? And how do you propose to teach anyone anything when you post in such a condescending manner?

[GeeMack]

You know, my next door neighbour is religious too. Should I start a thread about it, do you think?


Yes, you should start a thread about your neighbor's religiosity. But not until after he/she's been dead for thirty years. ;)

[Lonewulf]

And what, pray, do you intend to teach us?
1) Elvis was religious.
2) ????
3) PROFIT!

[Southwind17]

Elvis was a Christian- who has denied this, and who finds it a problem?

Nobody, which is, I think, precisely what DOC is getting at.

which relationship are you talking about?

The relationship between religion and revered icons (where such a relationship exists, that is). DOC chose Elvis, for obvious reasons, but he could have chosen others, I suppose.

how the hell did you get that from his quote- he was comparing Elvis to his next door neighbour in terms of relivence- I really don't see how you made the leap you did.

I don't know where he lives, but I doubt it's next door to a revered icon, which is the differentiator here.

firstly it appears to be entirely your fantasy, secondly, dismiss what?

Im sorry - you've lost me - what does? Dismiss DOC's inference.

And what, pray, do you intend to teach us? And how do you propose to teach anyone anything when you post in such a condescending manner?

I don't intend to teach anything here. I didn't mean to sound condescending. Sarcastic, cynical - possibly - but if wanted to sound condscending I think I could make a much better effort.

So you're an Elvis fan too?

[Lonewulf]

Personally, I'm not quite an Elvis fan. Yet, I don't honestly care if he was religious or not. His religious preferences, or lack thereof, is of no more consequence than the average Joe Shmoe's, or than of my next-door neighbor.

Caring about his religious preferences is like caring about an actor's political beliefs. It's interesting, but unrelated to what they were actually known for. And it's next to useless information, outside of personal interest or trivia.

[Southwind17]

Personally, I'm not quite an Elvis fan. Yet, I don't honestly care if he was religious or not. His religious preferences, or lack thereof, is of no more consequence than the average Joe Shmoe's, or than of my next-door neighbor.

Caring about his religious preferences is like caring about an actor's political beliefs. It's interesting, but unrelated to what they were actually known for. And it's next to useless information, outside of personal interest or trivia.

You see, you're completely missing DOC's inferred point. I'm certainly not a fan either, which is why I, too, don't care about his religiosity. It's only if you are a fan that the question could become relevant.

[Lonewulf]

You see, you're completely missing DOC's inferred point.
I am?

Wait a minute, you mean we actually have someone on the forum that thinks that DOC has a point...?
I'm certainly not a fan either, which is why I, too, don't care about his religiosity. It's only if you are a fan that the question could become relevant.
Okay, but in what way?

[Foster Zygote]

Elvis is Dead by Living Colour

Tabloids scream
Elvis seen at a shopping mall
That's the kind of talk
That makes my stomach crawl

Picture a zombie Elvis
In a tacky white jump suit
Just imagine a rotting Elvis
Shopping for fresh fruit

You can't 'cause

Chorus:
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead

When the King died
He was all alone
I heard that when he died
He was sittin' on his throne

Alas poor Elvis
They made us know you well
Now you dwell forever
In the Heartbreak Hotel

Chorus

Elvis was a hero to most
But that's beside the point
A black man taught him how to sing
And then he was crowned king

The pelvis of Elvis
Too dangerous for the masses

They cleaned him up and sent him to Vegas
Now the masses are his slave
Slave? slave
Yes, even from the grave

Elvis is dead

[Little Richard]
Presley was a good performer
On stage he was electrifying
When he was ill his fans got sick
And moaned when they heard he'd died
To all you pimps makin' money on his name
How do you sleep don't you feel no shame?
He went through the test he's out of this mess
Be my guest and let him rest
[/Little Richard]

I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland

[Foster Zygote]

Caring about his religious preferences is like caring about an actor's political beliefs. It's interesting, but unrelated to what they were actually known for. And it's next to useless information, outside of personal interest or trivia.

And it has no real weight in determining the validity of those political beliefs.

[brodski]

The relationship between religion and revered icons (where such a relationship exists, that is). DOC chose Elvis, for obvious reasons, but he could have chosen others, I suppose. yes but which relationship between religion and revered icons?



I don't know where he lives, but I doubt it's next door to a revered icon, which is the differentiator here. Well, he does say where he lives. And that's not the point, you have assumes that he reveres Elvis, despite him comparing him to his next door neighbour. You then went on a flight of fancy bout how he must feel uncomfortable when it is pointed out that Elvis was a Christian.



Im sorry - you've lost me - what does? Dismiss DOC's inference.
The idea that Sismosaruas is in some way upset about the reminder that Elvis was a Christian, you say that it is "understandable", despite terse being no evidence what so ever that Sismosaraus is upset about it. I have no idea what doc's inference may be , his implication (as with every other thread he starts) is that Christianity is the one true faith- in this case because an uneducated red neck who became a popular singer was a Christian- classic appeal to authority.


So you're an Elvis fan too?
Yes i am, as my first post in this trhead clearly shows. And I hate anyone who ever dares mention that Elvis was Christian. They're evil, evil I tell you.

[Southwind17]

I am?

Wait a minute, you mean we actually have someone on the forum that thinks that DOC has a point...?

I've not read DOC's posts before, so I'm not really in a position to judge him. I don't see any great harm in his OP here though, even if the intent isn't clear to all.

Okay, but in what way?

Well, it seems to me that DOC is inferring a degree of hypocrisy amongst avid Elvis fans who claim to be non-religious, or better still atheists. I'm not judging one way or the other, but I'm interested in reading the responses, that is if anybody will face the inferred allegation head on.

My interpretation and reading between DOC's lines could be wrong, though.

[Foolmewunz]

You see, you're completely missing DOC's inferred point. I'm certainly not a fan either, which is why I, too, don't care about his religiosity. It's only if you are a fan that the question could become relevant.

Southwind17, have you familiarized yourself with DOC's other threads. He tries to sell Christianity, as I mentioned, through the logical fallacy of argument from authority. To date, he's started threads on the underlying (and evidently very surprising [to him] ) Christian beliefs of Leif Ericson, Christopher Columbus, Thomas Jefferson, the founders of all the nation's universities, and now Elvis.

I'd say he started off on the historical firsts to set foot in North America (Ericson and Columbus), figuring that would convince us. Then he went to Jefferson, since he's taken by many to be the great philosophizer of the founding fathers. Having run head-on into people who knew a lot more about Jefferson than he does, he then went to our achilles heel - education, figuring we'd surely crumble when we realized that our major institutions of higher learning were originally founded with religious underpinnings. (Gasp! What a surprise! I'd have never thunk it! In 18th and 19th century heavily Christian America universities were founded on Christian principles? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!)

Now, we're evidently incapable of grasping the first explorers, founding fathers or higher education..... So we're off to Elvis. When that doesn't work? Who knows? Since we seem to be heading into popular culture and he keeps lowering the target, I'm reckoning he's going to post on the Christian beliefs of Charlie O'Connell.(*)

His approach reminds me of my first day in school in Tulsa, having arrived mid-year from New Orleans via Memphis. Some kid leaned over to me to chat, and the first words out of his mouth were, "You know, Oklahoma's a famous state?" Uhhh, yeah, I've actually heard of all 50 of them for one reason or another.


(*) 5 cents for the obscure reference. Admit it if you had to Google.

ETA: I see you've already answered my opening question. I make it a habit before attacking or defending anyone to check some of their posts, and particularly the threads they've started. But that's just me - YMMV.

[Cleon]

Most of these people would disagree with you:

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

So what?

[kmortis]

So what?

So what? SO what? SO WHAT??? How can you say that? Can't you see the point that's as obvious as that ray gun thingy hanging off of your face? Elvis was a Christian, that means you should be too. Give up your Jewy ways, Cleon, come join the One True Religion. Don't you realize that if a talent like Elvis can see the Way, that you should too? Elvis was everything. He started Rock 'n' Roll, so you should model your life off his.


Well, him and James Kennedy.

and Suklow.

And Barton.

See? Look at all these people who were convinced that Christianity is The Relgion of Choice. 3 billion of them, they can't all be wrong, can they? They started the schools in this country. Atheistism never got anyone off of drugs, it MUST be false then. And don't even get me started on the USSR, they would have succeeded if they'd only been Christian. Only Christian empires survive. This country is a Christian Nation and it's surviving, not like that Pagan Empire - Rome. And it's all thanks to the hard work and dedication of Leif Erikson.

If Jesus hadn't been born, the Native Americans would be languishing in their own filth.

Did I get them all?

[wollery]

Well, it seems to me that DOC is inferring a degree of hypocrisy amongst avid Elvis fans who claim to be non-religious, or better still atheists. I'm not judging one way or the other, but I'm interested in reading the responses, that is if anybody will face the inferred allegation head on.

My interpretation and reading between DOC's lines could be wrong, though.I'm afraid that you'll have to explain how it could possibly be hypocritical to like the music of someone with whom you don't share a religious belief. Quite frankly I think it couldn't be less relevant.

[joobz]

Did I get them all?
You forgot about his foray into unitarianism.
Actually I was being quite conservative concerning the number of people who believe in God. I gave Christians 2 billion and Islam 1 billion although its probably higher. I didn't include all the Jews and tribal people who believe in God or a Great Spirit. I'm not an expert on all the Asian religions but many of them probably believe in a single primary deity.

[articulett]

I thought they were forbidden to film Elvis below the waist on Ed's show because of all that suggestive pelvic swinging which caused young lasses to swoon.

Isn't pelvic swinging a sign of Satan?

[kmortis]

I thought they were forbidden to film Elvis below the waist on Ed's show because of all that suggestive pelvic swinging which caused young lasses to swoon.

Isn't pelvic swinging a sign of Satan?

Not that I know of.

:mdance::monkeyr::mdance::dewink:


Then again, I could be wrong

[articulett]

So what? SO what? SO WHAT??? How can you say that? Can't you see the point that's as obvious as that ray gun thingy hanging off of your face? Elvis was a Christian, that means you should be too. Give up your Jewy ways, Cleon, come join the One True Religion. Don't you realize that if a talent like Elvis can see the Way, that you should too? Elvis was everything. He started Rock 'n' Roll, so you should model your life off his.


Well, him and James Kennedy.

and Suklow.

And Barton.

See? Look at all these people who were convinced that Christianity is The Relgion of Choice. 3 billion of them, they can't all be wrong, can they? They started the schools in this country. Atheistism never got anyone off of drugs, it MUST be false then. And don't even get me started on the USSR, they would have succeeded if they'd only been Christian. Only Christian empires survive. This country is a Christian Nation and it's surviving, not like that Pagan Empire - Rome. And it's all thanks to the hard work and dedication of Leif Erikson.

If Jesus hadn't been born, the Native Americans would be languishing in their own filth.

Did I get them all?

Yeah... but Christians die young... like Elvis... and Jesus.

If religion helps you get famous (and it has for the likes of Haggard), I think Scientology is the way to go. Xenu gives his minions the ability to fly airplanes along with their millions. Just saying...

[articulett]

Not that I know of.

:mdance::monkeyr::mdance::dewink:


Then again, I could be wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc5sDt4ppnE&mode=related&search=

jail... hell... you be the judge.

[kmortis]

You forgot about his foray into unitarianism.

Aww, crap. I knew I should have consulted my notes.



What? You don't DOCument every interaction you have?

[Cleon]

I'm honestly just confused by this new Elvis preoccupation. This is not exactly a board full of Elvis fans, here. I can think of a number of Christian singers I enjoy listening to, none of whom got in trouble for sexually suggestive dancing or died of a drug overdose.

Hell*, I've probably sung more gospel songs than DOC knows exist.


* Yes, that was intentional.

[kmortis]

I'm honestly just confused by this new Elvis preoccupation. This is not exactly a board full of Elvis fans, here. I can think of a number of Christian singers I enjoy listening to, none of whom got in trouble for sexually suggestive dancing or died of a drug overdose.

Hell*, I've probably sung more gospel songs than DOC knows exist.


* Yes, that was intentional.

How many songs go well with the lyrics "exterminate. EXterminate. EXTERMINATE!"?

[articulett]

you guys are going to hellvis.

[Miss Anthrope]

Well, by Doc's "logic", Scientology must be right. Just look all those famous people who are Scientologists! They even have a celebrity center. Does the Vatican have a celebrity center? Hmmm? Hmmm?

[DOC]

Several people in here are talking about many of my other threads. And some are even giving false or misleading info about them. This is no doubt confusing to people who have not read my other threads. In order to make things clearer for them here are some of my other threads:

Jefferson and Separation of Church and State

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...43#post2347743

Peter, the apostle

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...00#post2714200

Could Communism in Russia have been successful with Christianity?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...54#post2782654

Christopher Columbus and the Bible

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...13#post2806813

The Viking, Leif Ericson

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...55#post2792555

The Chrisian Roots of American Schools

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2953472#post2953472

[wollery]

Yes, people should go and read those threads, to see just how badly DOC has fared in his attempts to show that the US is a Christian nation, and that Christianity is the one true religion.

[Hokulele]

Is anyone else as amused as I am that DOC is posting this on a Sunday?

"A little less conversation, a little more action." - Elvis

[strathmeyer]

Most of these people would disagree with you:

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

So what? People say similar things about the Beatles, Michael Jackson, and the Backstreet Boys. What is your point?

Several people in here are talking about many of my other threads. And some are even giving false or misleading info about them. This is no doubt confusing to people who have not read my other threads. In order to make things clearer for them here are some of my other threads:

Jefferson and Separation of Church and State

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...43#post2347743

Peter, the apostle

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...00#post2714200

Could Communism in Russia have been successful with Christianity?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...54#post2782654

Christopher Columbus and the Bible

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...13#post2806813

The Viking, Leif Ericson

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...55#post2792555

The Chrisian Roots of American Schools

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2953472#post2953472


Do you understand why it's a little stupid of you to point out the threads that you have ran away from because people asked you simple questions?

[Lonewulf]

And it has no real weight in determining the validity of those political beliefs.
Well, yeah. Hence, "next to useless". ;)

[DOC]

Do you understand why it's a little stupid of you to point out the threads that you have ran away from because people asked you simple questions?

Well then, you should be happy I posted the threads in post #60. And by the way, your use of the word stupid is a violation of Randi's rules on civility.

[kmortis]

Peter, the apostle

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...00#post2714200


Christopher Columbus and the Bible

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...13#post2806813



Aw, ****, I missed those two. I guess they're just buried under the mind-numingly inane nature of them all.

[articulett]

Aw, ****, I missed those two. I guess they're just buried under the mind-numingly inane nature of them all.

I'll also note that you missed my "evidence" that pelvic swinging is a sign of satan...
Isn't that convenient? Are you by chance, a pelvic swinger?

[joobz]

Several people in here are talking about many of my other threads. And some are even giving false or misleading info about them. This is no doubt confusing to people who have not read my other threads. In order to make things clearer for them here are some of my other threads
I wonder who you are talking about?

BTW, is this Elvis thread another premise for your Proof of Christianity, or is this thread meant to prove the awesomeness of elvis?

[kmortis]

I'll also note that you missed my "evidence" that pelvic swinging is a sign of satan...
Isn't that convenient? Are you by chance, a pelvic swinger?

Actually, if you look closer, you'll notice that I do concede the point being possible. I'll just need a bit more evidence.

[Southwind17]

yes but which relationship between religion and revered icons?

I think I might have read too deeply into DOC's OP, but my interpretation is possibly an extension of what everybody else believes he's inferring. I thought he was inferring the following logic:

1. Elvis is a revered icon
2. ... but many of Elvis's songs had a highly religious content and/or message
3. If you're non-religious, or better still an atheist (as are many of the JREF members), how can you possibly revere Elvis and all he stood for?
4. If you claim to be non-religious or an atheist but revere Elvis than you're either lying or a hypocrite

Please be clear: my interpretation of his inference; not necessarily my view. I don't want to receive all the flack that DOC might otherwise deserve!

Well, he does say where he lives. And that's not the point, you have assumes that he reveres Elvis, despite him comparing him to his next door neighbour. You then went on a flight of fancy bout how he must feel uncomfortable when it is pointed out that Elvis was a Christian.

I'll readily admit that I did consciously assume that. He did not go on to deny it, though, which could have been somewhat embarrassing for me! His comparison with the nextdoor neighbour was, I believe, a ploy to play down his reverence, but again, I could be wrong. Flight of fancy? I wouldn't go so far as to say that. It's not that Elvis was a Christian that struck a chord with me, but that he was, seemingly, highly religious, and his artistry reflected and reinforced that.

Southwind17, have you familiarized yourself with DOC's other threads.
ETA: I see you've already answered my opening question. I make it a habit before attacking or defending anyone to check some of their posts, and particularly the threads they've started. But that's just me - YMMV.

Thanks for the heads up Foolmewunz, and the tip. BTW - never confess to attacking anyone, well, not unless the plea bargain's worth it!

[DOC]

BTW, is this Elvis thread another premise for your Proof of Christianity, or is this thread meant to prove the awesomeness of elvis?

I have never given "proof" for Christianity anymore than science has proven life came from a freak collision of nonliving chemicals. I'm just putting info out there. What you do with it is your business.

[Lonewulf]

1. Elvis is a revered icon
2. ... but many of Elvis's songs had a highly religious content and/or message
3. If you're non-religious, or better still an atheist (as are many of the JREF members), how can you possibly revere Elvis and all he stood for?
4. If you claim to be non-religious or an atheist but revere Elvis than you're either lying or a hypocrite

Ahhhhh, what a fun fallacious argument.

[joobz]

I have never given "proof" for Christianity anymore than science has proven life came from a freak collision of nonliving chemicals. I'm just putting info out there. What you do with it is your business.
Well, I agree that you have failed to prove anything, but that doesn't mean you haven't attempted it.

DOC, I need only give one example to prove your claim of merely providing information is false.

So when I talk about Peter being in Rome for a few years and then in post 13

Ducky asks "so what" and I answer

Well Christ did call Peter "the Rock" that he would build his Church on. If the altar of St. Peter's Basilica (maybe the biggest Church in the world) is built directly above the grave of Peter that would be quite a prediction ol' Christ made.

And then you say I didn't answer the question and even state in a forum you put up about me that the question goes unanswered, I really think you "lose credibility". You can't give a more direct answer as to why Peter being in Rome is important. St Peter's Basilica is in Rome in case you didn't know.

i know you posted this to prove me wrong about you answering the So what question. you were correct, I was wrong. You did answer it at least once. Yet, you failed to realize the implications of answering this question. It proves that you are attempting to bolster up christianity as the one true faith through your series of threads. This is tantemount to attempting to prove christianity.

In other words, I proved you wrong.

[Lonewulf]

...anymore than science has proven life came from a freak collision of nonliving chemicals.
Except that "science" has demonstrated that it is A) Possible, and B) Have replicated various processes that would have led up to the evolution of life (such as the Miller-Urey Experiment).

There's also evidence of genetics, genetic mutations, natural selection... and what do we have for proof of Xianity?

"Some dude predicted where another dude would be buried!"

"ELVIS WAS RELIGIOUS!1111111oneoneoneoneleveneleven."

Well, I'm convinced.

[Southwind17]

Ahhhhh, what a fun fallacious argument.

So do you agree with my interpretation Lonewulf, or do you think I dug too deep?

Perhaps the man himself would care to comment. I'm surprised he hasn't clarified matters for us already. DOC?

[jond]

Elvis is Dead by Living Colour

Tabloids scream
Elvis seen at a shopping mall
That's the kind of talk
That makes my stomach crawl

Picture a zombie Elvis
In a tacky white jump suit
Just imagine a rotting Elvis
Shopping for fresh fruit

You can't 'cause

Chorus:
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead
Elvis is dead

When the King died
He was all alone
I heard that when he died
He was sittin' on his throne

Alas poor Elvis
They made us know you well
Now you dwell forever
In the Heartbreak Hotel

Chorus

Elvis was a hero to most
But that's beside the point
A black man taught him how to sing
And then he was crowned king

The pelvis of Elvis
Too dangerous for the masses

They cleaned him up and sent him to Vegas
Now the masses are his slave
Slave? slave
Yes, even from the grave

Elvis is dead

[Little Richard]
Presley was a good performer
On stage he was electrifying
When he was ill his fans got sick
And moaned when they heard he'd died
To all you pimps makin' money on his name
How do you sleep don't you feel no shame?
He went through the test he's out of this mess
Be my guest and let him rest
[/Little Richard]

I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland
I've got a reason to believe
We all won't be received at Graceland

The VERY first thing that popped into my head!

[Lonewulf]

So do you agree with my interpretation Lonewulf, or do you think I dug too deep?
Don't know, don't care.

Either he's making (another) fallacious, easily-refuted argument that honestly is meaningless, or he's making a meaningless thread in another vein. There is nothing of value here, nor will there be, judging by previous DOC threads. He spouts falsities as reality, and ignores any evidence to the contrary.

In this case, he probably IS right, and that Elvis was religious. But that means nothing, in any particular way.

Perhaps the man himself would care to comment. I'm surprised he hasn't clarified matters for us already. DOC?
See, this is evidence that you haven't read enough DOC threads: You're surprised that he hasn't clarified matters. ;)

[cyborg]

I'm just putting info out there.

Thanks DOC. Your threads have certainly educated me to the fact that Christianity exists and people are adherents of it.

:) :) :) :) :) :)

[Ryan O'Dine]

And speaking of the Beatles, John Lennon has outsold Elvis Presley by tens of millions of units, and his little band "the Beatles" is the number one selling musical group of all time (at least as of 10/10/06). (Source ( http://www.ultimatetoptens.com/index.cfm/method=main.viewList/id=37.cfm))

Lennon has arguably been more influential in terms of both technical and artistic innovation in popular music than Elvis ever was. For example (do please correct me if I’m wrong), Elvis never wrote an original song in his life.

Now let’s see... what were Lennon’s religious beliefs?

...God is a concept
By which we measure
Our pain

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus...


My point?

I'm just putting info out there. What you do with it is your business.

[gypsey]

Elvis Presley (Cherokee) - Singer/ Entertainer
His great-great-great-grandmother, Morning White Dove, was full-blooded Cherokee and Elvis Presley was quite proud of his Native heritage - and many Cherokee's are quite proud of him - but Colonel Tom Parker advised him against identifying his Native heritage due to racial tensions of that time. Elvis won three Grammy Awards, has more multi-platinum sales than any other performer, had 18 #1 songs, sold over a billion albums worldwide (more than any other artist or group, including the Beatles), and the first ever musical video was Jailhouse Rock (1957).


doc would he still be some one you held up as a symbol if he had followed his ggg grandmothers path and why was it so important to hide his native ancestry? doesn't the native blood taint him for you since you believe what you do about natives ?

DOC
gypsey
so you are saying that if christ had never been born my fathers people would still be on their ancestral lands there would have been no trail of tears no small pox epidemic no being almost driven to extinction because we would have never been "discovered" and our lands "settled"
If Christ had never been born I have a feeling there would have been constant wars between tribes, and maybe later somebody like Hitler, Napolean, or the atheist Russians would have come along and completely wiped out all of the Native Tribes with their modern weapons.


http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/gypsey31055/misc%20pics/elvisjesus.jpg

[slingblade]

DOC lives his life on the "appeal to authority" plan. If a famous person said something, DOC is impressed, and the words become those by which one ought to live.

[Miss Anthrope]

Well, by Doc's "logic", Scientology must be right. Just look all those famous people who are Scientologists! They even have a celebrity center. Does the Vatican have a celebrity center? Hmmm? Hmmm?

Just putting info out there for you, Doc.

[Lisa Simpson]

Well, by Doc's "logic", Scientology must be right. Just look all those famous people who are Scientologists! They even have a celebrity center. Does the Vatican have a celebrity center? Hmmm? Hmmm?


Actually, I think Scientology would have more going for it. Elvis died fat and drug-addled on the toilet. Tom Cruise is an idiot, but he doesn't appear to be a fat, drug-addled idiot. Therefore, Scientology must be right.

[blobru]

... Therefore, Scientology must be right.

Plus Priscilla and Lisa Marie are Scientologists.
Therefore, two out of three Presleys prefer Scientology.

BTW, I'm now eagerly awaiting the follow-up thread: "Bigfoot and Religion".

[Mojo]

Actually, I think Scientology would have more going for it. Elvis died fat and drug-addled on the toilet. Tom Cruise is an idiot, but he doesn't appear to be a fat, drug-addled idiot. Therefore, Scientology must be right.


But, on the other hand, Elvis was a government agency, funded on the direct orders of Thomas Jefferson.

[Lisa Simpson]

But, on the other hand, Elvis was a government agency, funded on the direct orders of Thomas Jefferson.



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

It loses some of the poetry, you know?

[Mojo]

Do you understand why it's a little stupid of you to point out the threads that you have ran away from because people asked you simple questions? And by the way, your use of the word stupid is a violation of Randi's rules on civility.


No it isn't: it describes your arguing tactics as stupid, not you personally.

[brodski]

How many songs go well with the lyrics "exterminate. EXterminate. EXTERMINATE!"?

Two,one by the KLF (as "The Time Lords") and annother, unrelaetd song by the 90's dance pop ..um.. "sensation... "Snap", entitled "exterminate". therefore I accept Dr Who as my personal lord and saviour.

http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=211

[kmortis]

Two,one by the KLF (as "The Time Lords") and annother, unrelaetd song by the 90's dance pop ..um.. "sensation... "Snap", entitled "exterminate". therefore I accept Dr Who as my personal lord and saviour.

http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=211

so, two out of a few bazillion? I think my point is made.

[brodski]

so, two out of a few bazillion? I think my point is made.

I think you're missing the point, both songs reached the top 10 in the UK ("the time lords" even made number 1), therfore the USA is a Whovian nation, ALL HAIL TEH TIMELORDS.

[Lisa Simpson]

I think you're missing the point, both songs reached the top 10 in the UK ("the time lords" even made number 1), therfore the USA is a Whovian nation, ALL HAIL TEH TIMELORDS.

I've already admitted to worshiping Doctor Who (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2903715#post2903715). I worship the 9th Doctor a bit more than the 10th Doctor, who's a bit too Barty Crouch, Jr. for my taste.

[sackett]

DOC, are you saying that a Southern pop singer deliberately recorded gospel and sold it for actual money? Whoever heard of such a thing?

Read your bibles and pray, children, for surely these be the last days.

[sackett]

If Catholics pray to saints, can I pray to Elvis?

[Miss Anthrope]

If Catholics pray to saints, can I pray to Elvis?

I advise lighting candles fabricated from bacon grease on alter located below a velvet oil painting of Elvis.

[sackett]

Pray not with vain repetition, after the manner of the heathen, but pray on this wise:

“Elvis, I know that you’re with Jesus now, but if you can hear me, please show me them Powerball numbers in a dream or some damn thing, see the bank are a going to repo my pickup if I don’t score some bucks real quick, Elvis, and I need that sucker, the truck I mean, to haul them racing slicks to Bismarck that I lifted off the Tires R Us loading dock. You was born poor same as me, so you know what it’s like to need something real bad when you ain’t got a fart’s chance in a whirlwind of getting it without somebody deevine helps. Sorry to bother you, Elvis, but I had to let you know what’s up with me these days, it’s a bitch right now and that’s a hunnerd-proof fact. Anyways, amen.”

[Tanstaafl]

Actually, I think Scientology would have more going for it. Elvis died fat and drug-addled on the toilet. Tom Cruise is an idiot, but he doesn't appear to be a fat, drug-addled idiot. Therefore, Scientology must be right.


I agree, that Tom Cruise is a thin, wide-awake idiot.

[Irony]

I think I might have read too deeply into DOC's OP, but my interpretation is possibly an extension of what everybody else believes he's inferring. I thought he was inferring the following logic:

1. Elvis is a revered icon
2. ... but many of Elvis's songs had a highly religious content and/or message
3. If you're non-religious, or better still an atheist (as are many of the JREF members), how can you possibly revere Elvis and all he stood for?
4. If you claim to be non-religious or an atheist but revere Elvis than you're either lying or a hypocrite

Please be clear: my interpretation of his inference; not necessarily my view. I don't want to receive all the flack that DOC might otherwise deserve!


Regardless of whose view it may be, that is one of the worst lines of reasoning I have seen in the last ... well I've seen worse fairly recently, but it's still remarkably laughable. Just because I like someones singing does not mean I have to consider them an authority in all things religious, or that I have to respect their political opinions, or that I have to respect them in any way whatsoever aside from their singing ability.

[joobz]

I agree, that Tom Cruise is a thin, wide-awake idiot.
Wouldn't he be a thin, Eyes wide Shut idiot?

da dum bum.

[DOC]

he was "the ring of rock and roll", he was also a crappy actor, died obese and was a prolific drug user.

Well, Walter Mathau disagrees about him being a bad actor. And if he was so bad, why did they keep making so many movies with him.

And Jim Morrison died obese and a drug user but nobody ever says much about that. Elvis outlived him and Hendrix by 15 years and Elvis probably played hundreds of more live performances then them, not to mention all the movies.

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

[Lisa Simpson]

Well, Walter Mathau disagrees about him being a bad actor. And if he was so bad, why did they keep making so many movies with him.

$$$$$$$ - that's why.

And Jim Morrison died obese and a drug user but nobody ever says much about that. Elvis outlived him and Hendrix by 15 years and Elvis probably played hundreds of more live performances then them, not to mention all the movies.

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

What does Jim Morrison have to do with anything?

[JoeEllison]

Well, Walter Mathau disagrees about him being a bad actor. And if he was so bad, why did they keep making so many movies with him.

And Jim Morrison died obese and a drug user but nobody ever says much about that. Elvis outlived him and Hendrix by 15 years and Elvis probably played hundreds of more live performances then them, not to mention all the movies.

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

Ozzy Osbourne outlived all of them... which means Satan is Supreme!!

[Hokulele]

Elvis was an adulterer. Clearly he was no True ChristianTM.

[JoeEllison]

Elvis was an adulterer. Clearly he was no True ChristianTM.

But he sang gospel music!!! And slept with underage girls!

Of course, sexual deviance is a hallmark of Christian heroes, isn't it?:cool:

[Lisa Simpson]

Yes, he was a fat, drug-addled, adulterous, pedophile BUT he was a Christian who made many popular movies and outlived Jim Morrison. Therefore, we should all be Christians.


At least, I think this is the moral of this thread.

[Hokulele]

I wonder which of the other 10 commandments Elvis broke? I'm sure I read somewhere about him performing on Sundays (unless you read Sabbath to mean Saturday, in which case I will guarantee he did not keep that holy!). Anyone else?

[Lisa Simpson]

You might be able to argue that he stole (thou shalt not steal) from blues artists who could not be popular due to the racism of the day.

[JoeEllison]

Yes, he was a fat, drug-addled, adulterous, pedophile BUT he was a Christian who made many popular movies and outlived Jim Morrison. Therefore, we should all be Christians.


At least, I think this is the moral of this thread.

Kind of a dumb "moral", isn't it?

[DOC]

Yes, he was a fat, drug-addled, adulterous, pedophile BUT he was a Christian who made many popular movies and outlived Jim Morrison. Therefore, we should all be Christians.


No, Elvis wasn't perfect, but I'm kinda of glad so many of you are trashing him -- its bad public relations for the atheist side.

[Lisa Simpson]

It's time for the Wheel of Morality!

fv5wawGCnhk

[JoeEllison]

No, Elvis wasn't perfect, but I'm kinda of glad so many of you are trashing him -- its bad public relations for the atheist side.

Why is "telling the truth" against your personal beliefs? Why don't you value honesty?

[Hokulele]

You mean like the way he is bad public relations for the christian side? :confused:

[JoeEllison]

You mean like the way he is bad public relations for the christian side? :confused:

No, somehow DOC thinks that Elvis is OK for doing those things, but we're evil for bringing them up.



....





....




....no, I don't get it either.

[Lisa Simpson]

No, Elvis wasn't perfect, but I'm kinda of glad so many of you are trashing him -- its bad public relations for the atheist side.

I'm not trashing him because he was Christian. I'm trashing him because he was a drug-addled, adulterous pedophile. Personally, I would never admire such a person nor would I use that person as an example of a good Christian. I guess you have different standards than me.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Okay, let’s see...

So we have two Presleys of Scientology, one Osborne of Satanism, an Elvis of Christianity, and a Lennon of atheism.

We'll just pull out our calculator... multiply those... carry the pi... integrate with respect to the thingie... cancel the units, and.... All right. As anyone can plainly see, Lennon is way tipping the scale. I mean, Norwegian Wood, for crying out loud!

[Lisa Simpson]

Oh hell, John Lennon was a drug-addled adulterer. Hardly a sterling example of an atheist. Although he wasn't a pedophile as far as I know.

[Hokulele]

Okay, let’s see...

So we have two Presleys of Scientology, one Osborne of Satanism, an Elvis of Christianity, and a Lennon of atheism.

We'll just pull out our calculator... multiply those... carry the pi... integrate with respect to the thingie... cancel the units, and.... All right. As anyone can plainly see, Lennon is way tipping the scale. I mean, Norwegian Wood, for crying out loud!


I hate to be a pedant, but did you include the Plastic Ono Band factor?

[Ryan O'Dine]

I hate both of you. I really do. Stupid knocking my idol down...

THE CALCULATOR DOESN'T LIE!

[Hokulele]

I will admit that of the bunch, Lennon is the most talented musician.

(Not that I have any idea of why DOC would think that talent matters in a moral discussion, nor why he would think Elvis best represents either talent or morality . . .)

[Miss Anthrope]

No, Elvis wasn't perfect, but I'm kinda of glad so many of you are trashing him -- its bad public relations for the atheist side.

But nothing compared to Catholic Priests!

[Lonewulf]

Oh hell, John Lennon was a drug-addled adulterer.
Considering the time period, doesn't that put him in the majority?

Honestly, I think a person can be a good person, and still be big on drug use.

[JoeEllison]

I hate to be a pedant, but did you include the Plastic Ono Band factor?

Hey... doesn't the Eric Clapton factor just barely counteract the Yoko Ono factor?

[Lisa Simpson]

Considering the time period, doesn't that put him in the majority?

Honestly, I think a person can be a good person, and still be big on drug use.

What's good for the fat, drug-addled king of rock 'n' roll is good for the drug-addled mop-topped Brit. If we are going to criticize Elvis for his faults, we cannot overlook John Lennon's.

[Lonewulf]

What's good for the fat, drug-addled king of rock 'n' roll is good for the drug-addled mop-topped Brit. If we are going to criticize Elvis for his faults, we cannot overlook John Lennon's.
To be fair, I rather think that calling Elvis "stupid" is going too far. I've also personally never criticized him for his drug use or eating habits, which I also disagree with. I don't consider them truly detrimental to the character that was Elvis.

But hey, screw me if I can't take a joke, right? :D

[quixotecoyote]

I think we should taking turn listing all the Christians we know one by one and see what the tipping point is for all the JREF non-believers to crack and admit the hole in their heart that only the Lord Jesus Christ can fill.

I'll start:
George W Bush.

[Lonewulf]

I think we should taking turn listing all the Christians we know one by one and see what the tipping point is for all the JREF non-believers to crack and admit the hole in their heart that only the Lord Jesus Christ can fill.

I'll start:
George W Bush.
Wow, you're so right.

George Bush is a Christian, and he has shown to be a truly great, intelligent, well-spoken, exemplar emporer... er, I mean, President. Only one that has been endowed with great abilities by a Higher Power can be all that I just listed; and as George Bush has all those abilities, that means God must exist.

Oh, the hole in my heart hurts so much... *takes some Pepto Bismal*

Ahh... better.

[Lisa Simpson]

Pat Boone

[Lonewulf]

Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
Fred Phelps and his minions

[Lisa Simpson]

To be fair, I rather think that calling Elvis "stupid" is going too far. I've also personally never criticized him for his drug use or eating habits, which I also disagree with. I don't consider them truly detrimental to the character that was Elvis.

But hey, screw me if I can't take a joke, right? :D

Obviously, you are not getting the point. Let me sum up:

Christians often claim drug use is bad, bad, bad.
DOC is holding up Elvis as an example of a Christian.
Elvis used drugs.

Hence, hypocrisy. In order to not be hypocritical, I pointed out that atheistic John Lennon also used drugs. Personally, I think if someone wants to fry their brains with drugs they should be able to.

[JoeEllison]

Ted Haggard

[Lisa Simpson]

Dennis Rader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btk_killer)

[Hokulele]

Mr. T

(I pity the fool who doesn't praise jeebus! I pity the fool!)

[Lisa Simpson]

Mel Gibson

[JoeEllison]

Kenneth Lay

[Miss Anthrope]

Tammy Faye
Benny Hinn
Those horrid freaks who run TBN

[Miss Anthrope]

Oh, and the incredibly honest and humble Jeff Fenholt, who has stretched the truth (http://www.black-sabbath.com/personnel/fenholt.html) in the name of Jesus in order to claim he was in Black Sabbath.

I saw him live once when I believed. Uhh.........yeah, he's hardcore.

[Hokulele]

Read the YouTube comments before you question my sanity.

K0FCeIKTrL0

[JoeEllison]

Oh, and the incredibly honest and humble Jeff Fenholt, who has stretched the truth (http://www.black-sabbath.com/personnel/fenholt.html) in the name of Jesus in order to claim he was in Black Sabbath.

I saw him live once when I believed. Uhh.........yeah, he's hardcore.

Wow, that guy's a giant suck, isn't he?

[Miss Anthrope]

Wow, that guy's a giant suck, isn't he?

:wackybiglaugh:

[kmortis]

Tammy Faye
Benny Hinn
Those horrid freaks who run TBN

Jan and Paul Crouch




No, I didn't have to Google that.


Yes, I used to watch it, um, religiously.


Gotta problem with that?


On the side of "really talented, but really should stick to a simpler conversion story, like - reality" Mike Warnke.

Phil Keaggy is, AFAIK, both a good Christian and great guitarist (the legend about him and Hendrix is just that, a legend)

On the "Why would I let my worst enemy listen to them?" you have
Both Bakkers (yes, you just did Tammy, but Jimm was just as bad)
Jimmy "Sobby" Swaggart
Falwell
Ooo...does Larry Flint still count?
Pat "It was the homersexuals" Robertson
Petie Popov
Oral "No jokes please" Roberts
Kenneth Copeland
and of course, the loverly D. James Kennedy

[UnrepentantSinner]

The KKK!

Kenneth Copeland, Kent Hovind and Ken Ham

[Cleon]

Well, Walter Mathau disagrees about him being a bad actor.

Oh, well, if Walter Matthau says so....


And if he was so bad, why did they keep making so many movies with him.


For the same reason they keep making movies with Tom Cruise. He brings in the money.


And Jim Morrison died obese and a drug user but nobody ever says much about that.

Nobody says much about Elvis, either. Well, outside of Memphis, anyway.

Elvis outlived him and Hendrix by 15 years and Elvis probably played hundreds of more live performances then them, not to mention all the movies.

http://www.elvis.net/whattheysay/theysay.html

Er...So what?

I still don't get what your point is, DOC.

[Miss Anthrope]

Er...So what?

I still don't get what your point is, DOC.

Neither do I. I'm seriously wondering why this thread isn't in entertainment given he's implying it's simply Elvis trivia.

[strathmeyer]

Well then, you should be happy I posted the threads in post #60. And by the way, your use of the word stupid is a violation of Randi's rules on civility.

No, doing stupid things is uncivil. Pointing stupid actions out to the people that commit them in the hopes that they will better themselves is civility.

[Achán hiNidráne]

You know DOC , you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel when you're dredging up dead rock stars to lend credibility to your Bible-beating.

Pitiful really.

[joobz]

Jimmy Carter
Vlad Tepes
Bill Clinton
Tomás de Torquemada
John F Kennedy
Jeffery Dahmer
mendel
John Wilkes Booth
Gallileo
....

[Achán hiNidráne]

I still don't get what your point is, DOC.

I don't see the logic either.

Elvis Presley used Christian themes in his music.
? ? ?
Ergo: Christianity is right.This has got to be one of the lamest Appeals To Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority) in the history of rhetoric. The only thing that could possibly be more pathetic would be... oh... citing James K. Kennedy as an authority on U.S. History.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Read the YouTube comments before you question my sanity.

K0FCeIKTrL0

PLEASE tell me that was some sort of parody.
:boggled:

[Hokulele]

That was some sort of parody.

[Ducky]

So did DOC ever tell us why we should care that Elvis was an Xian?

Seriously, DOC, please answer the following question:

SO WHAT?

[Foolmewunz]

Reading through all of this, I have to say, that finally,

(.... best Marjoe Gortner voice...)

I have seen THE LIGHT!

If Elvis was a Christian, then by all things I hold dear, well I'll be a Christian, too! And so shall you all if you just open your hearts and let the spirit of The King (not King of Kings) into your lives!

Speak to me, brethren! Can somebody give me an "Amen"? Please??!! I am touched by the hand of The King!

Why wasn't it Elvis who cut his hair and joined the army? And didn't we all follow him?

And didn't we all marry a virginal teenager? C'mon, Testify, brother!

Didn't we all forget our roots and sell out for a million bucks for every B-Film we could crank out.

I know I personally spent ages trying to get it on with Juliet Prowse and Ann-Margaret. It was The King who pointed the way. The King, I tell you! Not my pubescent lust!

Haven't we all been wearing white jumpsuits with sparkling studs on them, accesorized by red scarves for the last thirty years?

Don't you want to have a bunch of worthless unemployed hangers-on to cruise downtown Memphis with in you Caddie Convertibles?

Don't you keep loaded guns in your rec room and shoot out the TV, now and then? ([idiot mode off] Well, okay, we all want to do that from time to time. [/idiot mode off])

Don't you all keep a healthy supply of barbiturate-and-speed cocktails in the fridge? Say, "Ye-es!"

I have turned from my evil atheist ways. The King showed me the way, and he will show it to you. Stand up. Be counted in the Court of The King.

Amen, brother!

C'mon! Somebody give me an "Amen"!

[Ducky]

Reading through all of this, I have to say, that finally,

(.... best Marjoe Gortner voice...)

I have seen THE LIGHT!

If Elvis was a Christian, then by all things I hold dear, well I'll be a Christian, too! And so shall you all if you just open your hearts and let the spirit of The King (not King of Kings) into your lives!

Speak to me, brethren! Can somebody give me an "Amen"? Please??!! I am touched by the hand of The King!

Why wasn't it Elvis who cut his hair and joined the army? And didn't we all follow him?

And didn't we all marry a virginal teenager? C'mon, Testify, brother!

Didn't we all forget our roots and sell out for a million bucks for every B-Film we could crank out.

I know I personally spent ages trying to get it on with Juliet Prowse and Ann-Margaret. It was The King who pointed the way. The King, I tell you! Not my pubescent lust!

Haven't we all been wearing white jumpsuits with sparkling studs on them, accesorized by red scarves for the last thirty years?

Don't you want to have a bunch of worthless unemployed hangers-on to cruise downtown Memphis with in you Caddie Convertibles?

Don't you keep loaded guns in your rec room and shoot out the TV, now and then? ([idiot mode off] Well, okay, we all want to do that from time to time. [/idiot mode off])

Don't you all keep a healthy supply of barbiturate-and-speed cocktails in the fridge? Say, "Ye-es!"

I have turned from my evil atheist ways. The King showed me the way, and he will show it to you. Stand up. Be counted in the Court of The King.

Amen, brother!

C'mon! Somebody give me an "Amen"!



AMEN! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hour_Church_of_Elvis)

[Foolmewunz]

AMEN! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hour_Church_of_Elvis)

Nice link! Looks like just about the right size to hold all of the converted atheists DOC's going to get.

[Miss Anthrope]

God I wub you guys.

[Foolmewunz]

God I wub you guys.

I don't suppose I'd be the first to comment, given your sig....

You can wub me the wong way, anytime.

[quixotecoyote]

That was 36 by my count.

You catch that DOC? Valuable evangelical information, provided by me to you at no cost whatsoever!








(bill's in the mail)

[skeptifem]

a whole new level of irrelevance has been reached with this thread

it is a winning fail

[UnrepentantSinner]

George Harrison discovered Hinduism and lived a happy, successful and contented life post Beatles.

[Ducky]

George Harrison discovered Hinduism and lived a happy, successful and contented life post Beatles.

Which, given that horrific cover of "Got my mind set on you" with the completely horrific accompanying video for it, is evidence for DOC's point.

;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Which, given that horrific cover of "Got my mind set on you" with the completely horrific accompanying video for it, is evidence for DOC's point.

I used "successful" not "creative". :p

[Ducky]

I used "successful" not "creative". :p

Point taken ;)

[Mojo]

Elvissey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvissey)

[DOC]

If Elvis was a Christian, then by all things I hold dear, well I'll be a Christian, too! And so shall you all if you just open your hearts and let the spirit of The King (not King of Kings) into your lives!

Speak to me, brethren! Can somebody give me an "Amen"? Please??!! I am touched by the hand of The King!


Actually according to one of Elvis's buddies (on a PBS special) -- one time at a concert (I believe it was at Notre Dame campus) -- a group of ladies held up a big banner at a concert that said "The King". Elvis saw it and said there is only one king, and that's Jesus Christ.

Yes, Elvis had his faults, but "the king" knew who "the Real King" was. Maybe that's one of the reasons God gave him such incredible talent. Oh and by the way he was also world class at obeying the "5th Commandment".

[Henners]

... Maybe that's one of the reasons God gave him such incredible talent...

Am I the only person who finds it thoroughly offensive to see extraordinary human achievements being credited to a mythical sky fairy.

[Lonewulf]

Am I the only person who finds it thoroughly offensive to see extraordinary human achievements being credited to a mythical sky fairy.

Nope, not at all.

Elvis was world class at the fifth commandment? What about the other commandments? Did he never covet, did he never work on Sunday, did he always go to church? Curious questions...

Also, what about all of the skillful people that AREN'T Christians? I guess all those skilled Buddhists were right all along. I mean, they have skill, and they're Buddhists, so therefore...

[Mojo]

Oh and by the way he was also world class at obeying the "5th Commandment".


How was he on No. 9?

[Zep]

He was probably very good at number twos too.

[kmortis]

Am I the only person who finds it thoroughly offensive to see extraordinary human achievements being credited to a mythical sky fairy.

I would be if it came from anyone but DOC. He's shown himself to be a, and I'm being generous here, less than true witness. Oh, sure, he'll present ideas as they were presented too him faithfuly enough. Unfortunatly, they rarely have anything to do with reality.

Go, re-read what he really wrote. See all the equivocations in there? Do we have any REAL evidence that Elvis said that? Even if we did, we still come back to the number one response to all of DOC's posts; "So what?"

Let's assume that he did (and I do find it to be a believable story, I just don't believe it, see the difference?), let's assume that Elvis proclaimed, from the stage, that Jesus is the REAL King. Ok, so what? IT still doesn't lend any credability to the idea that a) there is a God b) that if there was a god, it's NECESSARILY the Christian one. It just means that some schlub from Tupalo, MS thought that that was the case. And that leaves us with the phrase "so what?".

DOC,
Until you can answer the "so what?", there is no discussion. Present all the little tidbits about Elvis (which is an anagram for "evils", you know) you want, until you can tell us just WTF we shoud care, we won't. Prostelization just doesn't work around these parts....

[Zep]

DOC is apparently working on the principle of: "If it's good enough for Elvis, it's good enough for me." So I wonder what his position is on deep-fried peanut-butter-and-bacon sandwiches is. Or mixing his mega-overdosed illegally-obtained prescription medications...

[brodski]

Oh and by the way he was also world class at obeying the "5th Commandment".

Well, I haven't murdered anyone either, do I get a gold star? or are you talking about some other version of "the" ten comandments?

[kmortis]

DOC is apparently working on the principle of: "If it's good enough for Elvis, it's good enough for me." So I wonder what his position is on deep-fried peanut-butter-and-bacon sandwiches is. Or mixing his mega-overdosed illegally-obtained prescription medications...

Well, on the sammich front, the King was the King. peanu' buttah n' nanner sammiches are tastey, tastey, tastey. i can only imagine that deep-frying them would only increase their "Good Eats" quotient.

the pharmacology...not so much. Although, he WAS a DEA agent, so maybe he was just in deep-cover? :p

[Lonewulf]

DOC was a DEA agent?

[Cleon]

Yes, Elvis had his faults, but "the king" knew who "the Real King" was. Maybe that's one of the reasons God gave him such incredible talent. Oh and by the way he was also world class at obeying the "5th Commandment".

Look, Hound-Dog, let me spell this out for you: Nobody here gives a damn about Elvis. Seriously. We just don't care. There are lots of talented musicians out there. Some are Christians, some are not.

So, for the love of God, what the **** is your point?

[Hokulele]

...Present all the little tidbits about Elvis (which is an anagram for "evils", you know)....


And "Levis". Elvis is in your pants!

[Lonewulf]

Look, Hound-Dog, let me spell this out for you: Nobody here gives a damn about Elvis. Seriously. We just don't care. There are lots of talented musicians out there. Some are Christians, some are not.

So, for the love of God, what the **** is your point?
Do you really think that you'll get an answer out of him?

[joobz]

Elvis (which is an anagram for "evils", you know)
It's been right there staring us in the face!?!!:eek:

I Think DOC is right to raise the Elvis issue.

If Elvis was the King, and "the King" supported Jesus....
Well, then if Elvis was evil (which is obvious now), that means SO IS JESUS!!! AH!

No wonder why DOC is so intent on missrepresentations and historical innacurracies. His true god is the Prince of Lies!! Jesus is the devil, the devil has had all the christians fooled!

Good thing our government is secular. It prevents such a vile evil from gaining true power in this country.

[UnrepentantSinner]

DOC was a DEA agent?

I didn't dig far enough to see if he ever got his coveted badge but a quick check shows that the Nixon/Elvis meeting took place before the advent of the DEA. The bureau he wanted to be an agent for was Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs.

[Safe-Keeper]

As others have stated before me, the logic of... certain forumers appears to be that a select few good people (the bad ones don't count) practiced Christianity, and a select few evil nations were atheist (the atheist nations doing fine don't count), and that Christianity is thus good, while atheism is necessarily bad. Confirmation bias and appeal to authority. Not to mention a stubborn belief that this time - this time it's going to work.

Watch me start scattered threads listing good light-haired people and then start a thread entitled 'Why societies led by dark-haired people kill several times more citizens', listing as examples the USSR, Mao's China, and Hitler's Third Reich.

Doc and plumjam, give it up. Please.

[strathmeyer]

Actually according to one of Elvis's buddies (on a PBS special) -- one time at a concert (I believe it was at Notre Dame campus) -- a group of ladies held up a big banner at a concert that said "The King". Elvis saw it and said there is only one king, and that's Jesus Christ.

Gee, you'd think if he really thought that, he'd have gotten everyone to stop calling him that, then. Your made up stories are really wearing thin, DOC.

Why don't you tell us about the second coming of Elvis?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Actually according to one of Elvis's buddies (on a PBS special) -- one time at a concert (I believe it was at Notre Dame campus) -- a group of ladies held up a big banner at a concert that said "The King". Elvis saw it and said there is only one king, and that's Jesus Christ.


Gee, you'd think if he really thought that, he'd have gotten everyone to stop calling him that, then. Your made up stories are really wearing thin, DOC.

Why don't you tell us about the second coming of Elvis?

So according to your logic it would be highly unlikely for a person who recorded these songs:

Amazing Grace • Reach Out To Jesus • He Touched Me • He Knows Just What I Need • Lead Me, Guide Me • How Great Thou Art • His Hand In Mine • I'm Gonna Walk Dem Golden Stairs • In My Father's House • Milky White Way • Known Only To Him • I Believe In The Man In The Sky • Joshua Fit The Battle • Swing Down, Sweet Chariot • Mansion Over The Hilltop • If We Never Meet Again • Working On The Building • Crying In The Chapel • In The Garden • Somebody Bigger Than You Or I • Farther Along • Without Him • So High • Where Could I Go But To The Lord • By And By • If The Lord Wasn't Walking By My Side • Run On • Where No One Stands Alone • We Call On Him • Who Am I? • Life • Only Believe • I've Got Confidence • Seeing Is Believing • He Is My Everything • Bosom Of Abraham • An Evening Prayer • There Is No God But God • A Thing Called Love • I, John • Miracle Of The Rosary • Put Your Hand In The Hand • I Got A Feelin' In My Body • Help Me • If That Isn't Love • Why Me Lord • Farther Along • Oh Happy Day • Bosom Of Abraham • You Better Run • Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus • Nearer My God To Thee • When The Saints Go Marchin' In • Just A Little Talk With Jesus • Jesus Walked That Lonesome Valley • I Shall Not Be Moved • Peace In The Valley • Down By The Riverside • Farther Along • Blessed Jesus • On The Jericho Road • I Just Can't Make It By Myself • I Hear A Sweet Voice Calling • Softly And Tenderly • It Is No Secret • I Believe • Take My Hand, Precious Lord • I Asked The Lord • He • Oh How I Love Jesus • O Lord, Show Me Thy Ways • Hide Thou Me • Sing You Children • ''Let Us Pray • Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child • Where Could I Go But To The Lord • Up Above My Head • Saved • The Lord's Prayer •

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley

to have said there is only one King, Jesus Christ, at a "Notre Dame" college concert. And that I was making it up. If you really do believe that would you be willing to apologize if I could show you he said that at the concert.

[Achán hiNidráne]

As we asked you months ago when you started this inane thread...

...SO WHAT???

[DOC]

As we asked you months ago when you started this inane thread...

...SO WHAT???

If you think a thread is inane, why go into it. One could make an argument that it doesn't make sense to do so. Obviously some people found it interesting and worth their time to post in it.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by DOC
Actually according to one of Elvis's buddies (on a PBS special) -- one time at a concert (I believe it was at Notre Dame campus) -- a group of ladies held up a big banner at a concert that said "The King". Elvis saw it and said there is only one king, and that's Jesus Christ.

Gee, you'd think if he really thought that, he'd have gotten everyone to stop calling him that, then.

So according to your logic it would be highly unlikely for a person who recorded these songs:

[snip pointless list of songs]

to have said there is only one King, Jesus Christ, at a "Notre Dame" college concert. And that I was making it up. If you really do believe that would you be willing to apologize if I could show you he said that at the concert.


Strathmeyer didn't actually say that. He said that Elvis didn't stop people calling him "The King". And he didn't. People are still calling him that to this very day. If Elvis professed a belief that "there is only one King, etc." but didn't really try to stop his fans calling him this then don't you think that Elvis may have been something of a hypocrite?

[kmortis]

Strathmeyer didn't actually say that. He said that Elvis didn't stop people calling him "The King". And he didn't. People are still calling him that to this very day. If Elvis professed a belief that "there is only one King, etc." but didn't really try to stop his fans calling him this then don't you think that Elvis may have been something of a hypocrite?

Even simpler answer - he was too stoned to care.

[Ladewig]

Surely we are living in the end times..

Oh Excuse me Elvis insisted on "Peace in the Valley" on Ed Sullivan not Amazing Grace.

..DOC has admitted he made a mistake.

[grayman]

I'm waiting for DOC to give us examples of people that martyred themselves for their belief in Elvis.

[Achán hiNidráne]

If you think a thread is inane, why go into it. One could make an argument that it doesn't make sense to do so.

And I could make an argument that religious stupidity (oops, sorry for the redundancy) needs to be smacked down and ground into powder where ever and when ever it slithers out from under its rock. Even when it's recycling the same pointless fallacies over and over and over.

Obviously some people found it interesting and worth their time to post in it.

Did you actually READ the rest of the posts on this thread?

With the exception of your own posts and one by your fellow bible-humper, plumjam, everyone else essentially pointed in one form and degree or another that you're full of it.

Of course, ignoring reality is SOP for you and your ilk, isn't it?

[Foster Zygote]

If you think a thread is inane, why go into it. One could make an argument that it doesn't make sense to do so. Obviously some people found it interesting and worth their time to post in it.

You still haven't answered the question. What is your point? Are you really saying that because Elvis was a Christian his fame is a verification of Christian beliefs? Seriously DOC, what is your point?

[Kopji]

Did I miss this somewhere? This is one of the oldest internet proofs:

Jesus said: "Love thy neighbor." (Matthew 22:39)
Elvis said: "Don't be cruel." (RCA, 1956)

Jesus is the Lord's shepherd.
Elvis dated Cybill Shepherd.

Jesus was part of the Trinity.
Elvis' first band was a trio.

Jesus walked on water. (Matthew 14:25)
Elvis surfed on water. (Blue Hawaii, Paramount, 1965)

Jesus' entourage, the Apostles, had 12 members.
Elvis' entourage, the Memphis Mafia, had 12 members.

Jesus was resurrected.
Elvis had the famous 1968 "comeback" TV special.

Jesus said, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." (John 7:37)
Elvis said, "Drinks on me!" (Jailhouse Rock, MGM, 1957)

Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights.
Elvis had irregular eating habits. (e.g. 5 banana splits for breakfast)

Jesus is a Capricorn. (December 25)
Elvis is a Capricorn. (January 8)

Matthew was one of Jesus' many biographers. (The Gospel According to Matthew)
Neil Matthews was one of Elvis' many biographers. (Elvis: A Golden Tribute)

"[Jesus] appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow." (Matthew 28:3)
Elvis wore snow-white jumpsuits with lightning bolts.

Jesus lived in state of grace in a Near Eastern land.
Elvis lived in Graceland in a nearly eastern state.

Mary, an important woman in Jesus' life, had an Immaculate Conception.
Priscilla, an important woman in Elvis' life, went to Immaculate Conception High School.

Jesus made reference to a Canaanite woman, saying, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." (Matthew 15:26)
Elvis made reference to a woman, saying "You ain't nothing but a hound dog."

Jesus was first and foremost the Son of God.
Elvis first recorded with Sun Studios, which today are still considered to be his foremost recordings.

Jesus was the lamb of God.
Elvis had mutton chop sideburns.

Jesus' Father is everywhere.
Elvis' father was a drifter, and moved around quite a bit.

Jesus was a carpenter.
Elvis' favorite high school class was wood shop.

Jesus wore a crown of thorns in the style of royalty.
Elvis wore Royal Crown hair styler.

No one knows if Jesus had a middle name.
No one was really sure if Elvis' middle name was "Aron" or "Aaron".

Jesus is often depicted in pictures with a halo that looks like a gold plate.
Elvis' face is often depicted on a plate with gold trim and sold on TV.

Jesus said: "Man shall not live by bread alone."
Elvis liked his sandwiches with peanut butter and bananas.

Jesus was regarded by some to have been an extraordinary prophet.
Elvis was regarded by some to have made an extraordinary profit.

http://www.mit.edu


And besides, Christians have already claimed that god hates rock and roll, which is it?
http://www.av1611.org/rockdead.html

[kmortis]

Did I miss this somewhere? This is one of the oldest internet proofs:


And besides, Christians have already claimed that god hates rock and roll, which is it?
http://www.av1611.org/rockdead.html

Well, that's good enough for me. I'm de-de-converting.


Oh, Holy Elvis, come into my heart and wash away my sins. I have transgressed by thinking that the Beatles were bigger than you. Forgive me.

In Elvis's name
A-men.

[joobz]

As we asked you months ago when you started this inane thread...

...SO WHAT???
I believe the point DOC is making is that even though Elvis was a man of deep christian faith, his faith couldn't save him from his personal demons, which resulted in drug abuse and death.

Indeed, it seems the lesson to learn is the christianity doesn't truly help anyone.

[DOC]

If Elvis professed a belief that "there is only one King, etc." but didn't really try to stop his fans calling him this then don't you think that Elvis may have been something of a hypocrite?

Not really, Christ said render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God's. Notice one of his friends said this incident happened at a concert at Notre Dame, a Catholic University. Elvis probably thought in this setting at Notre Dame it would be appropriate to state his beliefs. There were probably a lot of Jewish fans and even atheist fans at some of his other concerts. Yes, Elvis probably felt the Notre Dame concert was the right place to state his beliefs.

[Hokulele]

And he used pretty much all of his other concerts to demonstrate his beliefs in womanizing as well as drug and alcohol abuse. :cool:

[DOC]

I believe the point DOC is making is that even though Elvis was a man of deep christian faith, his faith couldn't save him from his personal demons, which resulted in drug abuse and death.

I never said Elvis was a man of "deep" Christian faith. His lifestyle bears that out. I believe Elvis was searching for God but never really found Him or true peace. Elvis was not a born again Christian.

I think Christ described the life of Elvis very well in the parable of the sower and the seeds in

the book of Matthew Chapter 13 vs. 1 -8


1
On that day, Jesus went out of the house and sat down by the sea.
2
Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd stood along the shore.
3
And he spoke to them at length in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
4
And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and birds came and ate it up.
5
Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep,
6
and when the sun rose it was scorched, and it withered for lack of roots.
7
Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it.
8
But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirty fold.

As Christ later said in that chapter, the seed represents the word of God. Elvis heard the word and was basically a good guy but the thorns of wealth and fame choked him.


Indeed, it seems the lesson to learn is the christianity doesn't truly help anyone.

I've heard at least 100 testimonies in my life of people who have gotten off of drugs or had life changing experiences through the power of the gospel. I think that Elvis just got so famous at a young age that it was extremely difficult for him to change. He also had a lot of friends who were dependent on him for their livelihoods. Elvis was by no means perfect, but I think he instinctively knew there was something to this Christianity. He was just so choked by the thorns (fame and wealth) as Christ referred to them that he never reached his full potential in Christ. He did give a lot of people happiness though with his God given gift.

But I believe Elvis will be judged the same as all of us will be judged. As the Bible says, God is no respecter of persons.

[H3LL]

I've heard at least 100 testimonies in my life of people who have gotten off of drugs or had life changing experiences through the power of the gospel.


Why are so many of your fellow Christians crackheads?

I've never met 100 junkies or ex-junkies...Is this a special Christian thing?

Are ex-druggies the best source for explaining the power of the gospel?

How long were these cokeheads addicted before Jesus payed attention?

Does he wait until they're face down, destitute, stinking and dribbling into a gutter or catch them early after a week or two?

Has Jesus got them on ignore?

Has DOC got me on ignore?

.

[Cleon]

Not really, Christ said render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God's.

Huh. So even Jesus supported the separation of Church and State. Who'd'a thunk it.


Notice one of his friends said this incident happened at a concert at Notre Dame, a Catholic University. Elvis probably thought in this setting at Notre Dame it would be appropriate to state his beliefs. There were probably a lot of Jewish fans and even atheist fans at some of his other concerts. Yes, Elvis probably felt the Notre Dame concert was the right place to state his beliefs. Odd place to do so, considering that Elvis was Pentecostal.

[Foster Zygote]

There were probably a lot of Jewish fans and even atheist fans at some of his other concerts.
You do know that Elvis' grandmother was Jewish, yes?

[joobz]

I never said Elvis was a man of "deep" Christian faith. His lifestyle bears that out. I believe Elvis was searching for God but never really found Him or true peace. Elvis was not a born again Christian. So him believing in god


So, Elivs was destined to fail because of his fame and wealth?
I think Christ described the life of Elvis very well in the parable of the sower and the seeds in
[snip]
Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it.
Yet, this thorn was obssesed with gospel.
No, I just thought it was interesting how the "King of Rock and Roll" had such an obsession with Gospel Music.

Gave credit to god for his talent
This website quotes Elvis as saying:

"I believe in the Bible. I believe that all good things come from God.…I don't believe I'd sing the way I do if God hadn't wanted me to. My voice is God's will, not mine."

and knew who the "real king" was.
Yes, Elvis had his faults, but "the king" knew who "the Real King" was. Maybe that's one of the reasons God gave him such incredible talent. Oh and by the way he was also world class at obeying the "5th Commandment".
Yet, despite this fervent faith in the lord, you still pronounce him weak because of the torns?

He was just so choked by the thorns (fame and wealth) as Christ referred to them that he never reached his full potential in Christ. He did give a lot of people happiness though with his God given gift.
But others live with those "thorns" and leave good christian lives. Why did god allow him to be choked by them? Especially sinice he was doing god's work? Isn't the message there that no matter what you do, god will leave you high and dry?


And How do you explain the rich and famous* (those living in thorns) who do wonderful chartiable work without any christian influence? They lead enriching lives and work to enrich the lives of others. They seem to embody the ideals that christian claim to aspire to yet so often fail. The fact that they acheived such good seems to completely contradict the claim that jesus is "the way". Seems to me that there must be some other "seed" that produces a plant more wholesome and lifegiving that what christianity offers.

Examples include
*Brad and Angelina
and the two greatest philanthropists in american history are the atheists
Bill gates and Warren Buffet

[grayman]

"Elvis is everywhere, man. Elvis is still the King..." :xelvis

Gopc3fgnXDw

[madurobob]

"Elvis is everywhere, man. Elvis is still the King..."

:) "great minds..." See my post #29.

[Foster Zygote]

I love Mojo Nixon. "Where the Hell's my Money?"

[grayman]

:) "great minds..." See my post #29.

I can't remember what I did yesterday, let alone four months ago. :boggled:

[DOC]

Examples include
*Brad and Angelina
and the two greatest philanthropists in american history are the atheists
Bill gates and Warren Buffet

The above might not be Christians but do you have any sources that they are atheists and not agnostics.

And any money people give to ungodly causes will ultimately be a detriment to humanity. For example if Jolie adopting a foreign child and bringing that child to the US is not of God, it will do more harm than good even if on the surface it looks like a good deed. Hopefully it is a Godly act, I don't know for sure. But I do believe anything not of God will ultimately fail, and I think history bears that out. For example, the atheistic Soviet Union was definitely not of God and it failed.

[Fitter]

For example if Jolie adopting a foreign child and bringing that child to the US is not of God, it will do more harm than good even if on the surface it looks like a good deed.
How can giving an orphan child the opportunity to experience the unconditional love of a family ever be wrong? If you truly believe that because your god is out of this loop it is doomed to failure you are as evil as you've as your imaginary crutch.

[Ryan O'Dine]

...SNIP...
Hopefully it is a Godly act, I don't know for sure. But I do believe anything not of God will ultimately fail, and I think history bears that out.
SNIP...


Serious question here, DOC.

With all due respect, do you know "for sure" that your contributions to these boards are "a Godly act"? If so, how? If not, what might the consequences be?

[joobz]

The above might not be Christians but do you have any sources that they are atheists and not agnostics.
http://www.nndb.com/people/493/000023424/
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Bill_Gates
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Warren_Buffett


[quote=DOC;3308130]And any money people give to ungodly causes will ultimately be a detriment to humanity.
So,
http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/2-angelina-jolie

Afghanistan Relief Organization (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/848-afghanistan-relief-organization)
Cancer Schmancer Movement (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/660-cancer-schmancer-movement)
Clinton Global Initiative (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/750-clinton-global-initiative)
Daniel Pearl Foundation (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/340-daniel-pearl-foundation)
Direct Change (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/478-direct-change)
Doctors Without Borders (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/208-doctors-without-borders)
Global Action for Children (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/308-global-action-for-children)
Jolie-Pitt Foundation (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/307-jolie-pitt-foundation)
Millennium Promise Alliance (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/351-millennium-promise-alliance)
Millennium Villages (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/353-millennium-villages)
ONE Campaign (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/3-one-campaign)
Peace One Day (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/659-peace-one-day)
Reporters Without Borders (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/590-reporters-without-borders)
UNHCR (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/5-unhcr)
UNICEF (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/1-unicef)
UN Millennium Project (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/352-un-millennium-project)
Yéle Haiti Foundation (http://www.looktothestars.org/charity/491-y-le-haiti-foundation)

Are a detriment to soceity?

For example if Jolie adopting a foreign child and bringing that child to the US is not of God, it will do more harm than good even if on the surface it looks like a good deed.
Prove this.

I state that the church's stance on contraception and the spread of AIDS in africa is the biggest detriment to world health. Unless, of course, you believe that people dying of AIDS is good.

Hopefully it is a Godly act, I don't know for sure. But I do believe anything not of God will ultimately fail, and I think history bears that out. For example, the atheistic Soviet Union was definitely not of God and it failed.
Then How do you explain
The success of:
China
India
Japan
The United States (which is decidedly secular in it's constitution)

How do you explain the failure of:
the holy roman empire
christian monarchies

How do you explain the morality of:
Christian led genocide of the aztecs
Christian led torture and violence of the inquisition
Christian led violence between catholics and protestants

How do you explain the success of Islamic states:
the UAE

If you are honest with yourself you will see that your claim of anything "ungodly" will fail is just completely unfounded. The only way you can support this argument is if you ignore all the facts that contradict your claim.

[cyborg]

If you are honest with yourself you will see that your claim of anything "ungodly" will fail is just completely unfounded. The only way you can support this argument is if you ignore all the facts that contradict your claim.

Who else is thinking, "Duh, well that's what he's gonna do?"

[kmortis]

Who else is thinking, "Duh, well that's what he's gonna do?"

Cyborg,
You know in that other thread where I argue for tolerance and understanding? DOC is the counterexample to that. He's only worthy of ridicule and hostility. He's demonstrated that he's not interested in a conversation at all. Might as well play with the troll while he's here.

[e-sabbath]

Random Trivia: Elvis, as I'm sure you all know, based his stage presence on Captain Marvel Junior.

... but did you know his favorite movie was Monty Python and the Holy Grail? He used to rent out the whole theater to watch it.

[DOC]

How can giving an orphan child the opportunity to experience the unconditional love of a family ever be wrong? If you truly believe that because your god is out of this loop it is doomed to failure you are as evil as you've as your imaginary crutch.

Why do you have to go 10,000 miles to do that, that's what I don't understand. And some papers are implying that she is giving less unconditional love to her biological blond hair child.

[Cleon]

Why do you have to go 10,000 miles to do that, that's what I don't understand.

That's a good question, actually (albeit slightly off-topic for this thread).

The basic answer is that the foster/adoption system in the United States is, to use a Yiddish word, completely ferkakte.

(For those who don't speak the mame-loshn, that's our little word for saying it's ****-ed up ten ways 'till Tuesday.)

Adopting in the US is a major headache--it is incredibly expensive, complicated, bureaucratic, and unpredictable. Lots of people find it easier and cheaper to adopt by going through international adoption agencies. Not just Africa, but the Far East and South/Central America, as well. (Personal anecdote: My aunt adopted a toddler from Guatemala; said child is now a college student, and doing very well.)

[DOC]

The above might not be Christians but do you have any sources that they are atheists and not agnostics.

Sites brought in by joobz in response:

http://www.nndb.com/people/493/000023424/
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Bill_Gates
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Warren_Buffett

_______

So according to the sites you brought in, this statement you made:

and the two greatest philanthropists in american history are the atheists
Bill gates and Warren Buffet

would not be accurate, because they both claim to be agnostics in the above websites.

[joobz]

So according to the sites you brought in, this statement you made:
would not be accurate, because they both claim to be agnostics in the above websites.
Agnosticism is also known as weak atheism.

therefore...........my statement was correct.

In either case, they both represent individuals who do not have a religion or faith nor do they believe in god, which still proves my point.

notice, that regardless of semantics you try to bring in, my argument's context is still valid.


ETA: Buffet is categorized atheist

[DOC]

Agnosticism is also known as weak atheism.

therefore...........my statement was correct.

What is your source for agnosticism is known as weak atheism.


ETA: Buffet is categorized atheist

But, for the record he did write down "Agnostic" to describe his beliefs according to the site you brought in.

[joobz]

What is your source for agnosticism is known as weak atheism.
Happy to provide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism

But, for the record he did write down "Agnostic" to describe his beliefs according to the site you brought in.
actually, no. The website made the mistake of include a quote for Warren Allen Smith. It was Warren Allen Smith who did that, not Warren Buffet.


The first quote on the site is the one that is needed.
"He did not subscribe to his family's religion. Even at a young age he was too mathematical, too logical, to make the leap of faith. He adopted his father's ethical underpinnings, but not his belief in an unseen divinity." --from Buffett: The Making of an American Capitalist, by Roger Lowenstein (Doubleday, 1995), page 13
which comes from a biography on warren buffet.

[DOC]

Here is what Wiki, says regarding atheism and agnosticism:

While agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism,[35] most agnostics see their view as distinct from atheism, which they may consider no more justified than theism, or requires an equal conviction.[36] The supposed unattainability of knowledge for or against the existence of gods is sometimes seen as indication that atheism requires a leap of faith.[3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[joobz]

Here is what Wiki, says regarding atheism and agnosticism:

While agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism,[35] most agnostics see their view as distinct from atheism, which they may consider no more justified than theism, or requires an equal conviction.[36] The supposed unattainability of knowledge for or against the existence of gods is sometimes seen as indication that atheism requires a leap of faith.[3
Of course, becuase classical considerations of athiesm is STRONG atheism, which says no gods exist...period. weak atheists (agnostics) say that there is no evidence that god exists. Functionally, they both do not believe in a god or gods.

But What is your point to this diversion?

You made the challenge that no good can come if god isn't involved.
It is clear that god isn't involved if the person is agnostic or if they are atheist. Both have nothing to do with a god. Neither point helps your argument. Indeed, any atheist or agnostic philathropist would support my argument. This seems to be merely an attempt to argue semantics to avoid admission of error.

And there is still the issue of
But I do believe anything not of God will ultimately fail, and I think history bears that out. For example, the atheistic Soviet Union was definitely not of God and it failed.

Then How do you explain
The success of:
China
India
Japan
The United States (which is decidedly secular in it's constitution)

How do you explain the failure of:
the holy roman empire
christian monarchies

How do you explain the morality of:
Christian led genocide of the aztecs
Christian led torture and violence of the inquisition
Christian led violence between catholics and protestants

How do you explain the success of Islamic states:
the UAE

If you are honest with yourself you will see that your claim of anything "ungodly" will fail is just completely unfounded. The only way you can support this argument is if you ignore all the facts that contradict your claim.

[DOC]

The website made the mistake of include a quote for Warren Allen Smith. It was Warren Allen Smith who did that, not Warren Buffet.

This website did not make a mistake.

http://www.celebatheists.com/index.p...Warren_Buffett


Wiki also claims Buffet describes himself as an agnostic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

[joobz]

This website did not make a mistake.

http://www.celebatheists.com/index.p...Warren_Buffett


Wiki also claims Buffet describes himself as an agnostic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett
Ok. your first link is dead, the second link clears up my misconception. Warren buffet sent a letter to Warren Smith saying he was agnostic..
If he calls himself agnostic, that's what he is.

But again, this doesn't help your position at all.
Neither atheist nor agnostic accept god.

My whole original point is

And How do you explain the rich and famous* (those living in thorns) who do wonderful chartiable work without any christian influence? They lead enriching lives and work to enrich the lives of others. They seem to embody the ideals that christian claim to aspire to yet so often fail. The fact that they acheived such good seems to completely contradict the claim that jesus is "the way". Seems to me that there must be some other "seed" that produces a plant more wholesome and lifegiving that what christianity offers.


I gave examples of weak atheists (agnostics). No matter what you call them, they still prove my point.

How do you answer that?

[Hokulele]

Ok. your first link is dead, the second link clears up my misconception. Warren buffet sent a letter to Warren Smith saying he was agnostic..
If he calls himself agnostic, that's what he is.


DOC, this is what you are supposed to do when you get something wrong. Not deny it and post the same nonsense hoping everyone has forgotten your mistakes and outright dishonesty.

Joobz, thank you for showing how an honest person discusses things.

[DOC]

DOC, this is what you are supposed to do when you get something wrong. Not deny it and post the same nonsense hoping everyone has forgotten your mistakes and outright dishonesty.

empty non-informative attack the messenger post #105 and counting.

[Hokulele]

How is it non-informative? I informed you of the proper way to acknowledge corrections. The fact that you take this to be an attack speaks volumes reagrding your arrogance.

[joobz]

empty non-informative attack the messenger post #105 and counting.DOC, may I assume that your rapid reply to Hokulele, but lack of reply to my question is an indication that you are delaying a response until you have developed a well reasoned rebuttal?

[DOC]

How is it non-informative? I informed you of the proper way to acknowledge corrections. The fact that you take this to be an attack speaks volumes reagrding your arrogance.

I've admitted to mistakes at least 3 times, yet you imply that I never have. Your latest attack the messenger post was just a derail of the topic we were discussing.

[Hokulele]

I've admitted to mistakes at least 3 times, yet you imply that I never have. Your latest attack the messenger post was just a derail of the topic we were discussing.


Please show me the posts where you have admitted to 3 mistakes.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I've admitted to mistakes at least 3 times, yet you imply that I never have.

Interesting because you've made many many more than that.

Your latest attack the messenger post was just a derail of the topic we were discussing.

Oh drop the indignant act troll. You're the one derailing the topic by bitching about her comment rather than actually replying to joobz.

Crap or get off the pot DOC.

[DOC]

Please show me the posts where you have admitted to 3 mistakes.

Here we go again, will you agree to apologize if I bring in the 3 times I've admitted to making mistakes.

[joobz]

Here we go again, will you agree to apologize if I bring in the 3 times I've admitted to making mistakes.
I would like to try to bring this thread back to the discussion of Elvlis and religion.

you had originally said
He[elvis] was just so choked by the thorns (fame and wealth) as Christ referred to them that he never reached his full potential in Christ. He did give a lot of people happiness though with his God given gift.
Then I replied
But others live with those "thorns" and leave good christian lives. Why did god allow him to be choked by them? Especially sinice he was doing god's work? Isn't the message there that no matter what you do, god will leave you high and dry?


And How do you explain the rich and famous* (those living in thorns) who do wonderful chartiable work without any christian influence? They lead enriching lives and work to enrich the lives of others. They seem to embody the ideals that christian claim to aspire to yet so often fail. The fact that they acheived such good seems to completely contradict the claim that jesus is "the way". Seems to me that there must be some other "seed" that produces a plant more wholesome and lifegiving that what christianity offers.

Examples include
*Brad and Angelina
and the two greatest philanthropists in american history are the atheistsagnostics
Bill gates and Warren Buffet
Considering now that you agree that these examples are, Indeed, non-christian, and do not believe in any god. How do you address my point?

[Hokulele]

Here we go again, will you agree to apologize if I bring in the 3 times I've admitted to making mistakes.


Only if you also admit to debating dishonestly. Deal?

[SezMe]

Six frickin' pages of pasture pizza based on DOC's OP. Amazing. Stunning. Shock and awe.

DOC, I'd like to thank you for participating in these here fora. If you didn't exist, we'd have to invent you just to keep the pot boiling. Your servce to God, JREF, Elvis and unbridled stupidity is second to none.












Well, OK, One-Inch-Christ might still hold top billing.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Here we go again, will you agree to apologize if I bring in the 3 times I've admitted to making mistakes.



Only if you also admit to debating dishonestly. Deal?


Translation:

I have no problem attacking Doc, but just don't ask me to back it up with an apology if I'm wrong.

___

Come to think of it, didn't you just praise joobz for owning up to a mistake. Joobz didn't ask "for conditions" to admit making an inaccurate statement.

[UnrepentantSinner]

**** or get off the pot DOC.

You could have spent all the time and energy you wasted bitching replying to joobz.

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by DOC
Here we go again, will you agree to apologize if I bring in the 3 times I've admitted to making mistakes.

Translation:

I have no problem attacking Doc, but just don't ask me to back it up with an apology if I'm wrong.


Translation:

I cannot admit that I debate dishonestly, such as refusing to read posts that demolish my position, for to do so would shred what little self-esteem I have left.

Come to think of it didn't you just praise joobz for owning up to a mistake


Of course I praised him. He did it immediately following your correction, and I am sure he will not bring up that as a point of debate again.

You on the other hand . . .

[DOC]

Here's a YouTube video of the King of Rock and Roll.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-S3K6wXYpg

[plumjam]

Wow,
I have to admire that you guys have managed to go at this one for 6 pages.
Pins and angels spring to mind. :D

BTW. No disrespect to Elvis.... uh-huh-HUH

[DOC]

DOC, may I assume that your rapid reply to Hokulele, but lack of reply to my question is an indication that you are delaying a response until you have developed a well reasoned rebuttal?

Yes, you may assume that. I will respond at my leisure.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Here's a YouTube video of the King of Rock and Roll.

**** or get off the pot DOC (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3310577&postcount=227).

[kmortis]

empty non-informative attack the messenger post #105 and counting.

No, what Hokulele did was to point out proper behavior, in a naive hope that you'd learn.

What I'm about to do is an empty non-informative attack on you.

Moron.

See the difference?
DOC, this is what you are supposed to do when you get something wrong. Not deny it and post the same nonsense hoping everyone has forgotten your mistakes and outright dishonesty.

vs.

Moron

Get it? Jackass.

[joobz]

Yes, you may assume that. I will respond at my leisure.
Well, I wait with interest to hear your response.

It seems that as a person who very much presents a "christ is the way" view, I would love to hear how you reconcile the fact that our biggest philantropists are indeed non-christian. Even further, they don't hold to any religion or notion of god.

As such, the conclusion is religion(in particular christinaity) is not required for someone to be good.

[DOC]

Well, I wait with interest to hear your response.

It seems that as a person who very much presents a "christ is the way" view, I would love to hear how you reconcile the fact that our biggest philantropists are indeed non-christian. Even further, they don't hold to any religion or notion of god.

As such, the conclusion is religion(in particular christinaity) is not required for someone to be good.

Giving money does not necessarily guarantee one is a good person. It is no secret that Microsoft spends a lot of time in court from being sued by several companies concerning questionable business practices. While Gates seems like a decent guy on the surface, I get the impression that his company does not always play by the rules which hurts other businesses.

Also, you have to look at how much of a sacrifice the money given is. When you have 44 billion in assets left after giving 8 billion one could argue that the sacrifice is not that great and if he was a Christian the amount given could have been much higher.

Also, you have to look at where the money is going. There has been criticism a substantial portion of the money given is going to companies whose social concern standards are questionable. Also the money given is very tilted to tech and medical companies which doesn't always help those in most need.

Here is a site that says some of the money given to Medical Industries is even potentially harmful

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10101

And here is a site that talks about a Los Angeles Times article entitled:

Dark cloud over good works of Gates Foundation: By Charles Piller, Edmund Sanders and Robyn Dixon, Times Staff Writers
January 7, 2007

"Using the most recent data available, a Times tally showed that hundreds of Gates Foundation investments — totaling at least $8.7 billion, or 41% of its assets, not including U.S. and foreign government securities — have been in companies that countered the foundation's charitable goals or socially concerned philosophy."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story?page=2&coll=

[Seismosaurus]

I think DOC might be just trolling here, given the absence of any direction in the OP. It's at least provocative though, and, in my opinion, worthy of discussion, not because it's Elvis, but because of the relationship between religion and revered people/icons.

I suspect you're a bit of an Elvis fan and, as such, would rather the matter be quietly disregarded. That's understandable, but not a good reason to dismiss it.

If you wish to be excused from this particular class that's OK with me.

Wow, I only just saw this so sorry for the delay...

No. Not a fan of elvis at all actually, never have been. His style of music really isn't my taste.

And it's not that I think his religiousness (is that a word?) should be disregarded... I just don't care very much. I mean, I care in a general sense that it interests me how any person manages to be religious. But that Elvis specifically is religious? Well so what? Like I said, my neighbour is religious but you don't see me starting threads about it.

Really I see this thread as no different to people who talk about Britney's political views or Tom Cruise's opinion of racism. Politics is interesting, racism is interesting, but a singer or actor's opinions thereof are not, at least not to me.

I just don't really get why anybody would care.

[joobz]

Giving money does not necessarily guarantee one is a good person. It is no secret that Microsoft spends a lot of time in court from being sued by several companies concerning questionable business practices. While Gates seems like a decent guy on the surface, I get the impression that his company does not always play by the rules which hurts other businesses.
He's no longer CEO of Microsoft. You can't judge Gates' Current actions based upon it. Yes, Bill was a shrewd business man, but lets say he did do unsavory things as a CEO. Are you saying a man can't atone for his previous errors? Doesn't that contradict christian notions of forgiveness and salvation. INdeed, I appears that his ability to do good now further undermines the utlity of christianity. Afterall, if christianity was "needed" for healing the soul, his turn arround in good will would have been impossible.

Also, you have to look at how much of a sacrifice the money given is. When you have 44 billion in assets left after giving 8 billion one could argue that the sacrifice is not that great and if he was a Christian the amount given could have been much higher.
Speculation, with no proof. Anyway, even based upon your numbers, he's exceeded christian requirements. (15% vs. 10%Tithe).

Also, you have to look at where the money is going. There has been criticism a substantial portion of the money given is going to companies whose social concern standards are questionable. Also the money given is very tilted to tech and medical companies which doesn't always help those in most need.Now, this is something that will have to wait and see who's right.

What is more benefiicial:
1. A charity who goes and tries to convert others while they suffer and die?
or
2. one that helps develop technologies that will improve the health care of impoverished nations.

My money is on 2, becuase one has no hope of ever improving thier status. Judging by the number of poor christian nations, I'd say that such ministries haven't helped a lick. In 2, The Foundation attempts to address a issue. There is no development being done by companies to help improve the treatment of health care in africa. There's no money in it. For instance, we take for granted that we can refridgerate medicines without concern. Access to refridgerators isn't a guarantee, so what do you do? We can develop medicine to account for such limitations, but there was no money supporting such research. Now there is.

The article deals with a chicken/egg issue. Do you counter act the poverty and hope over time that the people's health would improve, or do you treat people so they are healthy, empowering them to improve thier econmic status?


Dark cloud over good works of Gates Foundation: By Charles Piller, Edmund Sanders and Robyn Dixon, Times Staff Writers
January 7, 2007


"Using the most recent data available, a Times tally showed that hundreds of Gates Foundation investments — totaling at least $8.7 billion, or 41% of its assets, not including U.S. and foreign government securities — have been in companies that countered the foundation's charitable goals or socially concerned philosophy."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story?page=2&coll=

This is a result of a management ethic that they decided to use.
At the Gates Foundation, blind-eye investing has been enforced by a firewall it has erected between its grant-making side and its investing side. The goals of the former are not allowed to interfere with the investments of the latter.
Having written grants, I can speak intelligently on this subject.
For a granting institution, They want to minimize the politics of granting and fund purely the best proposals that come along. Period. NOw if the best proposal comes from a investigator working at a big pharma, it's going to get funded. but because big pharma has a bad rap, such negative press is bound to occur. This is a rather minor point and one that is more related to management then effectiveness.


I find it interesting that you are trying to prove my claim wrong by attempting to attack the success of Bills foundation and about the committment he has put into this area Remember that it isn't' pure money. He and his wife have put a time into it as well.

Consider the time investment that Angelina Jolie has put into her chartiable actions... I stand by my statement, and you haven't yet offered any evidence that would prove it wrong.
And How do you explain the rich and famous* (those living in thorns) who do wonderful chartiable work without any christian influence? They lead enriching lives and work to enrich the lives of others. They seem to embody the ideals that christian claim to aspire to yet so often fail. The fact that they acheived such good seems to completely contradict the claim that jesus is "the way". Seems to me that there must be some other "seed" that produces a plant more wholesome and lifegiving that what christianity offers.

Examples include
*Brad and Angelina
and the two greatest philanthropists in american history are the atheistsagnostics
Bill gates and Warren Buffet

[Ryan O'Dine]

Giving money does not necessarily guarantee one is a good person. It is no secret that Microsoft spends a lot of time in court from being sued by several companies concerning questionable business practices. While Gates seems like a decent guy on the surface, I get the impression that his company does not always play by the rules which hurts other businesses.

Also, you have to look at how much of a sacrifice the money given is. When you have 44 billion in assets left after giving 8 billion one could argue that the sacrifice is not that great and if he was a Christian the amount given could have been much higher.

Also, you have to look at where the money is going. There has been criticism a substantial portion of the money given is going to companies whose social concern standards are questionable. Also the money given is very tilted to tech and medical companies which doesn't always help those in most need.

Here is a site that says some of the money given to Medical Industries is even potentially harmful

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10101

And here is a site that talks about a Los Angeles Times article entitled:

Dark cloud over good works of Gates Foundation: By Charles Piller, Edmund Sanders and Robyn Dixon, Times Staff Writers
January 7, 2007

"Using the most recent data available, a Times tally showed that hundreds of Gates Foundation investments — totaling at least $8.7 billion, or 41% of its assets, not including U.S. and foreign government securities — have been in companies that countered the foundation's charitable goals or socially concerned philosophy."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story?page=2&coll=


Now I'm really, really confused. Because you can find problems with Gates’ philanthropy, it has a bearing on atheism. But when we find problems with Elvis’ morality, that has no bearing on Christianity?

[Tanstaafl]

Easily explained. Hypocrisy is the highest virtue in the Church of DOC.

[DARK LORD XENU]

missing the point of what effect on our daily lives does what a dead singers religious beliefs are meant to have here.

Further more who cares?

[Gazpacho]

Also, you have to look at where the money is going. There has been criticism a substantial portion of the money given is going to companies whose social concern standards are questionable. Also the money given is very tilted to tech and medical companies which doesn't always help those in most need.

Here is a site that says some of the money given to Medical Industries is even potentially harmful

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10101

And here is a site that talks about a Los Angeles Times article entitled:

Dark cloud over good works of Gates Foundation: By Charles Piller, Edmund Sanders and Robyn Dixon, Times Staff Writers
January 7, 2007

"Using the most recent data available, a Times tally showed that hundreds of Gates Foundation investments — totaling at least $8.7 billion, or 41% of its assets, not including U.S. and foreign government securities — have been in companies that countered the foundation's charitable goals or socially concerned philosophy."

Gates has been asked about this. His response is that he doesn't know how to run all the companies the foundation is invested in and he isn't going to try. He wants to solve problems, not preach to people about how they should solve problems.

As to whether someone's a good person or not, I'll take the person who accomplished something over the person who accomplished little, but felt good about it.

[joobz]

DOC, may I assume that you admit that agnostics (people who have no belief in any god, not just the christian god) are fully capable of doing acts of charity and altruism?

That(using your parable's analogy) these agnostics had seeds grow and thrive into a healthy altruistic flower. That the source of these seeds weren't obviously jesus, but something else. As such, the claim that a person requires christianity to make someone a good person is completely false.