My housemate is doing this 12 step program thing

[Undesired Walrus]

My housemate has a mental problem with food, and she is going along to AA meetings (She has never touched the booze) to learn about has to use the power of God to stop eating, or whatever her specific problem is. She is not a large girl, so I think the problem is more complex then I, or my other housemates understand.

Sadly, as mentioned, she is getting all Gody. Am I a bad person if I question her faith, the only thing that appears to be getting her through this? Or am I a good person if I ask her if it is wise allowing some potentially ficitional creature to take her problems away?

How do these things work?

[ImaginalDisc]

They try to convince you that you are inherently helpless against the siren call of alcohol. They say that drinking even a drop, ever, represents "falling off the wagon" entirely, and is a mortal failing. Then, they aleviate the very fears they have caused by pushing Jesus like a shady street vendor hawking fake Rolex watches.

ETA: Ok, that wasn't actually helpful advice, now that I think of it. Maybe it's better to encourage your housemate to find a more effective treatment program in the area? Preferably something that doesn't villify her?

[Undesired Walrus]

The moral question I have is: If I challenge her beliefs against God, am I a bad person by doing this?

Say she got comfort by weeding a garden, that could no longer grow plants, would I be wrong in saying it was a lost cause?

[Lisa Simpson]

If she's going through a tough time, then challenging her beliefs is bad right now. The time to "challenge" them is when she's on her feet emotionally. Don't kick someone when they're down.

If she's not overweight but feels she has problems with food, she may have an eating disorder of some kind. There are better programs for that than AA.

[ImaginalDisc]

The moral question I have is: If I challenge her beliefs against God, am I a bad person by doing this?

Say she got comfort by weeding a garden, that could no longer grow plants, would I be wrong in saying it was a lost cause?

Considering there's no evidence showing that AA is effective I don't see the conumdrum.

No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems. One large study focused on the prognostic factors associated with interventions that were assumed to be successful rather than on the effectiveness of interventions themselves, so more efficacy studies are needed.

source (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005032.html)

Even though interventions can help, there's no indication that religious intervention is any more effective than any other program.

I think that if you are going to broach the subject of theodicy to her, you might want to tell her you fully support her desire to treat her alcoholism, which is why you're concerned about her getting into a program that may be needlessly based on religion.

If I were in your position, I'd tell her that she can rely on me for support, and her friends and family, and we all hope she gets better, and that there's no need to either blame herself for wanting alcohol, nor any need to seek help from Jesus.

[brettDbass]

Try to steer her away from the AA.
Here's why:-

AA is focussed on curing an addicition to a non-essential, addictive substance.
Someone with compulsive eating problems needs to learn how to cure the compulsion but they obviously cannot completely give up food and go cold turkey (ooh, bad pun, sorry). Clearly better to go to a specialist in eating disorders.

[Lisa Simpson]

Considering there's no evidence showing that AA is effective I don't see the conumdrum.



source (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005032.html)

Even though interventions can help, there's no indication that religious intervention is any more effective than any other program.

I think that if you are going to broach the subject of theodicy to her, you might want to tell her you fully support her desire to treat her alcoholism, which is why you're concerned about her getting into a program that may be needlessly based on religion.

If I were in your position, I'd tell her that she can rely on me for support, and her friends and family, and we all hope she gets better, and that there's no need to either blame herself for wanting alcohol, nor any need to seek help from Jesus.

She doesn't have an alcohol problem. She has a food problem.

[ImaginalDisc]

She doesn't have an alcohol problem. She has a food problem.

I was just noticing how completely I had missed that.

:boggled: Oi. That was dumb of me.

It's just too strange for me to understand. Why would anyone do that?

[Lisa Simpson]

I have no idea. She acknowledges a problem with food, so why not go to an eating disorder specialist?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I was just noticing how completely I had missed that.

:boggled: Oi. That was dumb of me.

It's just too strange for me to understand. Why would anyone do that?

Easy enough to miss. You would assume a person with a booze problem would go to the "booze people" and a eating problem would go to the "eating people".

LLH

[ImaginalDisc]

LLH, Lisa, your acceptance of my complete stupidity warms my feebleminded soul.

[Undesired Walrus]

She's a strange girl.....

I'm worried about her. 23 and never had a boyfriend, and now she is putting faith in whatever diety the AA group support (Jesus?).

She may be on the floor, but wouldn't giving her a kick about a somewhat questionable bearded man, motivate her to stand up?

[Lisa Simpson]

She's a strange girl.....

I'm worried about her. 23 and never had a boyfriend, and now she is putting faith in whatever diety the AA group support (Jesus?).

She may be on the floor, but wouldn't giving her a kick about a somewhat questionable bearded man, motivate her to stand up?

Or it could motivate her in another, less happy direction.

[Fnord]

Am I a bad person if I question her faith, the only thing that appears to be getting her through this?

Not at all, keep questioning her faith. While you're at it, let her know that only imbeciles and fools believe in anything supernatural, and that if she would only take charge of her life by eating less and exercising more, her problems would go away.

Or am I a good person if I ask her if it is wise allowing some potentially ficitional creature to take her problems away?

Every one knows that it makes you a good person to point out the fallacy of someone else's beliefs, regardless of whether or not those beliefs could enable her to overcome her "eating disorder."

How do these things work?

The end should never justify the means. Keep after her about the old "Eat less and exercise more" method, as it is a scientifically proven method that works in the vast majority of weight-related issues. Show her the fallacy of supernatural belief, and how important it is for normal, sane, and intelligent people to adhere to reality rather than fantasy.

She will either overcome her "eating disorder" or leave you. Either way, you're off the hook.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

She's a strange girl.....

I'm worried about her. 23 and never had a boyfriend,

What's her phone number? Just kidding, just kidding (kind of).

LLH

[ImaginalDisc]

Not at all, keep questioning her faith. While you're at it, let her know that only imbeciles and fools believe in anything supernatural, and that if she would only take charge of her life by eating less and exercising more, her problems would go away.



Every one knows that it makes you a good person to point out the fallacy of someone else's beliefs, regardless of whether or not those beliefs could enable her to overcome her "eating disorder."



The end should never justify the means. Keep after her about the old "Eat less and exercise more" method, as it is a scientifically proven method that works in the vast majority of weight-related issues. Show her the fallacy of supernatural belief, and how important it is for normal, sane, and intelligent people to adhere to reality rather than fantasy.

She will either overcome her "eating disorder" or leave you. Either way, you're off the hook.

Ever the paragon of the kindly Christian, I see. You've diligently followed the intructions of Jesus in Mark 89:62, "Blessed is the scarastic twit, who hears the cries for advice from acquaintances and responds with words as bitter as burned olive pits, for he truely is my follower."

[Apology]

I agree with Lisa that if she's having some sort of crisis right now, it's not a good time to address her religious beliefs at all. An extra dose of reality/unreality right now could make it much worse.

However, she did give you an opening to step in and help her anyway. Try to help her find a good, affordable weight loss support group. Find out from her if she's tried Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers; it's sort of natural for us to assume she's tried those things and failed, but if she hasn't, they have a better success rate with weight loss than AA, that's for sure. Find out if there are any psychologists or psychiatrists that deal with morbid obesity. The main problem with getting help for her is the cost, and of course AA is free. If she can get in a low/no cost sliding scale program she will get better treatment that's more designed towards her problem. You can "steer her" away from AA in this instance without ever addressing her belief in God.

Mentally unstable people's religious beliefs should only be handled by a licensed mental health professional. Any time that you spend trying to debunk a mentally unstable person's religious beliefs is time that would have been better spend trying to convince them to get professional help.

I'd like to add that you don't have to tolerate a holier-than-thou attitude from her. If she becomes aggressive or attacks your beliefs please just try to be the better person and maintain your position of rationality and reason. Obviously this girl needs help (or she would not have gone to AA), and we both agree God's not going to help her solve these problems. The best thing to do is try to find her someone who really is going to help her as soon as possible.

[supercorgi]

The end should never justify the means. Keep after her about the old "Eat less and exercise more" method, as it is a scientifically proven method that works in the vast majority of weight-related issues. Show her the fallacy of supernatural belief, and how important it is for normal, sane, and intelligent people to adhere to reality rather than fantasy.

She will either overcome her "eating disorder" or leave you. Either way, you're off the hook.

Sorry it just not that easy. Eating disorders are very real conditions but they're psychological in nature. Usually the eating is to cover up dealing with emotional issues.

UW, you say she's not large. Unless she's binging and purging she may not actually have an eating disorder by more a body dysmorphic disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder). I used to suffer from this. I thought I was hugely fat and hideous when in actuality at that time in my life, I was pretty skinny. Encourage her to go talk to her doctor about how she feels and what she's doing. He may refer her to someone for psychological counseling. It sounds like she may need help from an objective third-party to get some perspective.

Oh and Fnord, I object to you putting eating disorders in quotation marks as though such things aren't very real problems. Someone doesn't starve themselves to death or eat themselves to death just because they are either hyper or lazy.

[Undesired Walrus]

I'd like to confirm that she does not have a problem with loosing weight. It is more an OCD type thing, she measures out her food, prepares it in little cups.

Just... saying 'someone more powerful' is helping you get out of this is setting yourself up for a fall is it not? She has been like this for many, many years now, and I fear she may give herself completly to God.

I have been on Sertraline for 6 months, and only had 3 'great' days in the last 2 years. But... I take comfort in medical science and personal responsibility showing the way. Do people just need a kick up the arse and told to take responsibility for their own body? That is what I got. It worked.. almost.

[Miss Anthrope]

Sounds to me like she needs help with the OCD. It's likely a 12 step program will just give her more to obsess about.

[zooterkin]

She's a strange girl.....

I'm worried about her. 23 and never had a boyfriend, and now she is putting faith in whatever diety the AA group support (Jesus?).



If ever that mis-spelling was appropriate, it would be in this thread ;)

My understanding is that the deity invoked by AA is non-specific higher power, though atheists and agnostics are not excluded (though I suspect the mental gymnastics may be too much for some). However, as others have said, I can't see how going to AA can be the right thing to do for your friend.

[Dancing David]

If she's going through a tough time, then challenging her beliefs is bad right now. The time to "challenge" them is when she's on her feet emotionally. Don't kick someone when they're down.

If she's not overweight but feels she has problems with food, she may have an eating disorder of some kind. There are better programs for that than AA.


Or Overeater Anonymous, I think individual therapy and medication works best,then specific group work. IMOO

[Dancing David]

She's a strange girl.....

I'm worried about her. 23 and never had a boyfriend, and now she is putting faith in whatever diety the AA group support (Jesus?).

She may be on the floor, but wouldn't giving her a kick about a somewhat questionable bearded man, motivate her to stand up?


My higher power was sobriety, I'm not an alcoholic but a drug addict. Sounds like she has an eating disorder AA is not a good place for that, it is meant for anti-social alcoholics.

[Fnord]

Ever the paragon of the kindly Christian, I see. You've diligently followed the intructions of Jesus in Mark 89:62, "Blessed is the scarastic twit, who hears the cries for advice from acquaintances and responds with words as bitter as burned olive pits, for he truely is my follower."

LOL ... you can't refute the message, so you attack the messenger. Would it have made any difference for an Atheist to have posted the same message? Or are you just sore that I beat you to it?

If the girl needs psychiatric treatment, then she should get it from a psychiatrist; preferably one who more-or-less specializes in eating disorders.

I'll swear on any stack of Bibles that I have NEVER witnessed a successful faith-based treatment of a medical, psychological, and/or behavioal disorder, and that I have sincere doubts that they're effective in the long run. Religion is for social/political activities. Science is for more practical concerns, like getting needed treatment for an eating disorder.

Faith-based weight loss programs may work in the short-term, perhaps ... a year or three down the road, when the "spiritual" mood is no longer upon her, she will again be right back where she is now; stuffing her face and seeking a "miraculous" cure.

[Dancing David]

I'd like to confirm that she does not have a problem with loosing weight. It is more an OCD type thing, she measures out her food, prepares it in little cups.

Just... saying 'someone more powerful' is helping you get out of this is setting yourself up for a fall is it not? She has been like this for many, many years now, and I fear she may give herself completly to God.

I have been on Sertraline for 6 months, and only had 3 'great' days in the last 2 years. But... I take comfort in medical science and personal responsibility showing the way. Do people just need a kick up the arse and told to take responsibility for their own body? That is what I got. It worked.. almost.

Yeah that is most likely not an addiction issue. AA is meant to be a way to pass the time while you choose not to loose. Or least that is my take on it, if you think that you will freak out if you don't use, the idea is that you don't use and ask your higher power to help you not use freaking out as an excuse for using. If you have used a drug to solve every problem in your life then you freak out a lot when you don't use that drug and you have all these rationales and other excuses you have to face down.

I like Jack Trimpey's idea of Rational Recovery (he is kind of obnoxious but no more so then most atheists.).

This is my intrusion please ignore if it offends you:
On the Setraline, I got benefit from the dose of 100 mg, but also had sleep apnea, I also have to really watch my caffine intake. If you don't begin to feel 'normal' , whatever that is, you might want a different medication. It takes about 6 months for my mood to become normal, the OCD stops right away. I had to go up on my dose because I was having a lot of agitation. I was miserable for the year and one half that I was off the medicine, disturbed sleep, anxiety, obsession and compulsions.

[supercorgi]

AA is meant to be a way to pass the time while you choose not to loose. Or least that is my take on it, if you think that you will freak out if you don't use, the idea is that you don't use and ask your higher power to help you not use freaking out as an excuse for using.

I'm not entirely sure what that last sentence is saying. :o
If you have used a drug to solve every problem in your life then you freak out a lot when you don't use that drug and you have all these rationales and other excuses you have to face down.

Actually that is exactly how a compulsive eater feels. They've been using food to distract themselves from the things they don't want to face. It really is a type of self medication because basically you're pushing down the bad feelings with food which is something we often learn in childhood (Feeling bad? Hurt yourself? Here have a cookie) In addition to the psychological effects, there's also physiological effects from certain foods. Eating lots of starches can have a sedating effect.

While someone won't have physiological withdraw effects from not eating, they'll still have psychological effects such as panic attacks when they can't eat to calm down or make themselves feel better.

[ponderingturtle]

Actually that is exactly how a compulsive eater feels. They've been using food to distract themselves from the things they don't want to face. It really is a type of self medication because basically you're pushing down the bad feelings with food which is something we often learn in childhood (Feeling bad? Hurt yourself? Here have a cookie) In addition to the psychological effects, there's also physiological effects from certain foods. Eating lots of starches can have a sedating effect.

This seems to be a bit odd, as escape from problems is a general issue with compulsive behaviors. It could well be reading novels and the like.

[supercorgi]

This seems to be a bit odd, as escape from problems is a general issue with compulsive behaviors. It could well be reading novels and the like.

I'm not sure what you find odd. You're right that escape is an issue with compulsive behaviors and anything can fill in the gap. I thought that was the point I made, that food is the escape and so the person gets "addicted" to what allows them to escape even if it causes problems in the long way. It's not really that different from people that get addicted to playing online computer games until they die (there's a thread somewhere on that topic).

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not sure what you find odd. You're right that escape is an issue with compulsive behaviors and anything can fill in the gap. I thought that was the point I made, that food is the escape and so the person gets "addicted" to what allows them to escape even if it causes problems in the long way. It's not really that different from people that get addicted to playing online computer games until they die (there's a thread somewhere on that topic).

It just seemed to be being linked to the physiological effects of food, more than the nature of compulsion.

[supercorgi]

It just seemed to be being linked to the physiological effects of food, more than the nature of compulsion.

I was just trying to point out that compulsive eating can have some physiological effects. It's mostly psychological/behavioral but you can't completely dismiss the physiological effects of certain foods. If we did, how would you understand why people drink so much coffee? :)

[ponderingturtle]

I was just trying to point out that compulsive eating can have some physiological effects. It's mostly psychological/behavioral but you can't completely dismiss the physiological effects of certain foods. If we did, how would you understand why people drink so much coffee? :)

Masochism, the same reason people eat hot peppers.

[andyandy]

try and get her to see her GP - I don't think OCD would be helped by more rules to follow - indeed i would have thought that it's likely to have a detrimental effect.

[Dancing David]

I'm not entirely sure what that last sentence is saying. :o

Actually that is exactly how a compulsive eater feels. They've been using food to distract themselves from the things they don't want to face. It really is a type of self medication because basically you're pushing down the bad feelings with food which is something we often learn in childhood (Feeling bad? Hurt yourself? Here have a cookie) In addition to the psychological effects, there's also physiological effects from certain foods. Eating lots of starches can have a sedating effect.

yes a compulsive eater , no for a person with an eating disorder.


While someone won't have physiological withdraw effects from not eating, they'll still have psychological effects such as panic attacks when they can't eat to calm down or make themselves feel better.

I believe my stance is there is only addiction, no psychological addiction or physical addiction (physical withdrawl syndromes yes).

[Beerina]

They try to convince you that you are inherently helpless against the siren call of alcohol. They say that drinking even a drop, ever, represents "falling off the wagon" entirely, and is a mortal failing. Then, they aleviate the very fears they have caused by pushing Jesus like a shady street vendor hawking fake Rolex watches.

ETA: Ok, that wasn't actually helpful advice, now that I think of it. Maybe it's better to encourage your housemate to find a more effective treatment program in the area? Preferably something that doesn't villify her?

Yeah, food is it's own ballpark. Unlike drugs or alcohol or gambling or sex or Internet or whatever, you have to keep eating every day.

How well would a drunk do if he had to drink 4 drinks a day, no less, but careful, no more either! Or a gambler who had to play $50 in a slot machine every day, but careful, no more either!



And the worst part of it all is the psychological aspect. We presume there's something wrong with people's minds. This is not true. I don't believe most people are "substituting" a lack of personal contact with food, or some such.

I think it's just a combo of the sedentary, modern lifestyle combined with access to cheap, calorie-rich foods. (And scientifically engineered to taste good, too.)

When I was in college, I worked physical labor jobs. I lost weight easily, without changing my eating habits.

A normal person should be able to consume 2500-3000 calories a day, if they are physically active in their day job. This is the normal eating habit, and the body/mind is designed for it.

Instead, everybody sits on their butts at many jobs all day, then are surprised to see they suddenly weigh 250 lbs. or more?

[slingblade]

What bothers me, regardless of the problem one feels one must alleviate, is how AA wants you to give up personal responsibility for the problem.

"Came to see we are powerless..."

Look, if you can't do it (and frankly, there are some things we just can't change, regardless of strength of will), then how the heck is some invisible sky-daddy supposed to do it?

Is he stupid, in that he didn't have a clue you were struggling with <insert problem>, and had to wait for you to bring it to his attention?

Is he cruel, in that he knew, but waited for you to ask first?

Either this god knew you had a problem and ignored it or put special conditions on his help, or didn't know and thus is not omnipotent OR involved in your life.

But the clincher for me is: why do you want to give your power to anyone else?

[Dancing David]

What bothers me, regardless of the problem one feels one must alleviate, is how AA wants you to give up personal responsibility for the problem.

"Came to see we are powerless..."

Look, if you can't do it (and frankly, there are some things we just can't change, regardless of strength of will), then how the heck is some invisible sky-daddy supposed to do it?

Is he stupid, in that he didn't have a clue you were struggling with <insert problem>, and had to wait for you to bring it to his attention?

Is he cruel, in that he knew, but waited for you to ask first?

Either this god knew you had a problem and ignored it or put special conditions on his help, or didn't know and thus is not omnipotent OR involved in your life.

But the clincher for me is: why do you want to give your power to anyone else?

I am not an apologist for AA, it is meant for antisocial males who have an experience of power in their lives.

The key is this

1. Came to understand that we were powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable.

The problem that most addicts have is that the won't accept that they can't control their use. You have to choose to not use.

But i think that Jack Trimppey and Jeanne Kirkpatrick have a better take.