PDA

View Full Version : Win $125,000 by proving global warming (or not)


DRBUZZ0
24th September 2007, 07:44 PM
I don't have time right now to say all that I think of this page: http://ultimateglobalwarmingchallenge.com/


But it's ridiculous. It's from the junk science people at junkscience.com. it offers a $125,000 prize to prove global warming thus disproving two things:

UGWC Hypothesis 1

Manmade emissions of greenhouse gases do not discernibly, significantly and predictably cause increases in global surface and tropospheric temperatures along with associated stratospheric cooling.
UGWC Hypothesis 2

The benefits equal or exceed the costs of any increases in global temperature caused by manmade greenhouse gas emissions between the present time and the year 2100, when all global social, economic and environmental effects are considered.


Okay... hypothesis 1. I think these guys (who get to judge this) are going to make it pretty hard to prove number 1, because I am going to guess that proving that the earth is warming, that the earth's warming cannot be attributed entirely to natural forces, that the CO2 emissions from humans can account for this and that the amount of warming from humans exceeds that which might occur due to random variation...

I'm sure that will be *difficult* to prove to their satisfaction. But the second one is *IMPOSSIBLE*

How can you predict the future with any certainty? Could Global Warming end up benefiting the world?

Sure it could. The increase in temperature could save humanity if there were a couple of major volcano eruptions that would otherwise cause a small ice age. And I cannot prove that will not happen in the next 93 years.

And what kind of temperature increase will be expected?


Will China continue to grow economically? What if there is a popular revolt which leads to a civil war in china and sets them way back?

Will there be a major war elsewhere? Will cheap and efficient nuclear fusion be discovered? Will the price of oil increase? What if an economic slowdown combined with the discovery of better deep-sea drilling methods cause the price to fall?

And how do you define "benifits" vs "costs"?

If the great barrier reef is destroyed and the majority of Africa becomes a dust bowl and much of Western Europe have a huge drop in temperature... But eastern europe gets a much more moderate climate and in East Asia there is a longer growing season and North atlantic fisheries have bumper harvests, while Canada needs way less energy in the winter and millions are saved on the cost of snow cleanup...

Can you *prove* that the "costs" are worse than the "benefits"?


What if the energy supply of the US is vastly improved when unlimited drilling in Alaska and the Arctic Ocean is approved on the grounds that "There's not much left there to worry about protecting. All the native species are dead anyway" Then... is the cost more than the benifit?

What if dikes have to be built around cities which cost billions but reduce unemployment?

So... even if you *could* predict the future with enough accuracy to qualify, how do you define when the benefit exceeds the cost?

Somebody needs to make a judgement call and guess who it is? The junkscience.com crowed.


Oh and by the way: Theres no gaurenteed winner. The context ends at the end December 1 2008. And you have to pay $15 to just submit an attempt at this.


This is such a sham it's shameful. They want to be paid for this crap?

If I were a Nobel Prize winning climotologist who had one of the most complete studies on global warming, I would NOT submit to this, since I'm just paying them 15 bucks. If it were free I would to make a point, but I doubt anyone serious would submit to this crap.

Simon Bridge
24th September 2007, 08:33 PM
It sounds a bit like my 0900 (NZ version of US 1800) scheme: 0900 politics: <insert idiot's name here> is really on the ball - call 0900 OPINION to prove me wrong, (calls cost $3.99 per minute...)

It also shows why you have to be very careful setting up legitimate "$X Challenge" contests. JRF has been criticized along the same lines. Can we make the difference clear to a first impression?

JoeEllison
24th September 2007, 08:34 PM
That site is a fraud, run by liars, frequented by idiots, and by people who want to point and laugh at the idiots who believe that nonsense.

Slimething
24th September 2007, 08:43 PM
I don't know how one would go about proving AGW vs plain old GW. I suspect that the proof would be onerous enough to cost you more than the $125K they're offering. Also, the rules are just ridiculous. There are no safeguards for the entrants.

a_unique_person
24th September 2007, 08:54 PM
The IPCC have already provided their proof. Clearly, that was not good enough for them.

DRBUZZ0
24th September 2007, 11:22 PM
I don't know how one would go about proving AGW vs plain old GW. I suspect that the proof would be onerous enough to cost you more than the $125K they're offering. Also, the rules are just ridiculous. There are no safeguards for the entrants.

This site is bills themselves as ones who "demand debate" and are motivated by looking for the truth.

What is so absolutely shameless is that they want you to pay them just for the opportunity to submit your "proof." I don't think never heard of any circumstance where a challenge was offered to prove or demonstrate something where they want you to pay them upfront!

And what's worse... It's a finite length of time with no gaurenteed winner and it's basically implied that there will not be one. Besides, since it's vague and designed so they can decide on a whim. And where does this $15 go? If (read: when) nobody wins they pocket it. Do they donate it or use it for any kind of charitable cause? Doesn't look like it.




Actually... I'm just noticing something. They're offering a prize and charging for submissions. That's something that you can sometimes do if you're a charity and have state permission. They also have intentionally vague rules. I wonder where they're based. I think I might call my attorney general on this one tomorrow.

JoeEllison
24th September 2007, 11:26 PM
I don't think never heard of any circumstance where a challenge was offered to prove or demonstrate something where they want you to pay them upfront!

I think there was a thread about some anti-immunization crackpots that expected you to put up cash.

mhaze
25th September 2007, 04:55 AM
It sounds a bit like my 0900 (NZ version of US 1800) scheme: 0900 politics: <insert idiot's name here> is really on the ball - call 0900 OPINION to prove me wrong, (calls cost $3.99 per minute...)

It also shows why you have to be very careful setting up legitimate "$X Challenge" contests. JRF has been criticized along the same lines. Can we make the difference clear to a first impression?

Good point. I have heard pretty (otherwise intelligent) people state the JREF prize rules were ridiculously biased.

But of course with AGW, the "science is settled", right?:rolleyes:

Cuddles
25th September 2007, 07:10 AM
This site is bills themselves as ones who "demand debate" and are motivated by looking for the truth.

Just like the 9/11 conspiracy nuts and many religious types. It seems that the louder someone claims they want the truth, the less they are actually interested in finding it.

Graham Jackman
25th September 2007, 10:51 PM
Regardless of your position on climate change, I would concede that they do have a point. Proponents of global warming are pushing an approach based on reducing our non-renewable energy usage in the hope that temperatures will not rise. This requires a great deal of investment and change and while good in itself may not have any impact. Those proposing such actions should be able to justify the enormous expense. If we seriously believe that temperatures are going to rise it would make sense to plan for this occurring, regardless of any efforts on our behalf. I'm not aware of any plans to build sea dikes or to move low lying neighbourhoods to higher ground. If we're serious about this, shouldn't that be the rational course of action?

DRBUZZ0
25th September 2007, 10:59 PM
Regardless of your position on climate change, I would concede that they do have a point. Proponents of global warming are pushing an approach based on reducing our non-renewable energy usage in the hope that temperatures will not rise. This requires a great deal of investment and change and while good in itself may not have any impact. Those proposing such actions should be able to justify the enormous expense. If we seriously believe that temperatures are going to rise it would make sense to plan for this occurring, regardless of any efforts on our behalf. I'm not aware of any plans to build sea dikes or to move low lying neighbourhoods to higher ground. If we're serious about this, shouldn't that be the rational course of action?

It is difficult to know exactly how it will end up. If we stopped creating all CO2 now, it would continue to rise. If we keep at the rate we are now, it will rise more. If we cut back reasonably, it may rise a little less. Enough that it's not too late? hard to say.

Sea levels rising just a small amount will not flood major cities, but they will mean that those cities may flood during a storm surge, where they would have been safe before.

The consensus is that a rapid change in the earth's climate is likely to have some very negative effects, but again, it's impossible to say for sure what the numbers will be. Weather is ultimately chaos theory. It takes supercomputers to predict the weather for a few days.

It's definitely something to be concerned about.

mhaze
26th September 2007, 10:22 AM
It is difficult to know exactly how it will end up. If we stopped creating all CO2 now, it would continue to rise. If we keep at the rate we are now, it will rise more. If we cut back reasonably, it may rise a little less. Enough that it's not too late? hard to say.

Sea levels rising just a small amount will not flood major cities, but they will mean that those cities may flood during a storm surge, where they would have been safe before.

The consensus is that a rapid change in the earth's climate is likely to have some very negative effects, but again, it's impossible to say for sure what the numbers will be. Weather is ultimately chaos theory. It takes supercomputers to predict the weather for a few days.

It's definitely something to be concerned about.

Note that
it isn't certain that CO2 has any detrimental effects in any concentration that man is capable of placing into the atmosphere
using up all fossil fuel reserves (possibly by 2074) would not release enough CO2 to double the concentration in the atmosphere (2xCO2, that is the "Climate sensitivity" number)
sea level rise per year has recently been downgraded to 1.3mm per year or about a foot in an entire century
sea level rises are basically due to water stored on and under land masses from the last ice age slowly making it's way down to the oceans
the oceans hold far more CO2 that the air and release it or absorb it in accordance with temperature
the IPCC report itself does not hold in the so called "tipping points" alarmists harp about, based on incorrect understanding of feedbacks in the climate systemIs it possible to win the money? Not as far as I can see.

But if it isn't a fair wager, blame the people who have propagated the CO2 hypothesis of man made climate change for their won unverifiable hypothesis, not those who have exposed the lunacy by offering the wager.

This is the same issue "for which the science is settled" and for which "urgent action is required now"....