Energetics

[Kumar]

Hello,

Energetics

Energetics is the scientific study of energy flows and storages under transformation. Because energy flows at all scales, from the quantum level, to the biosphere and cosmos, energetics is therefore a very broad discipline, encompassing for example thermodynamics, chemistry, biological energetics, biochemistry and ecological energetics..
..As a general statement of energy flows under transformation, the principles of energetics include the first four laws of thermodynamics which seek a rigorous description.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energetics

Dependending upon biological and ecological energetic status, energy flow into and from the body may be depandent on bloded one above, which many people may think some super energy waves. Any change in biological and ecological's status may shake whole body and ecology in view of thermodynamics. Probably, Non-equilibrium in body's thermodynamics may mean disorder and equilibrium in it may means order in body.

Best wishes.

[TheRedWorm]

So, you're saying it's a bad idea to stick my finger in an electrical outlet?

[fagin]

So, you're saying it's a bad idea to stick my finger in an electrical outlet?

Only if it's a Super Energy One

Sounds like an ad for a sports drink

[TheRedWorm]

Ohh, Super Energy Electrical Outlets! Drink one and be wired all day! :D

[Ziggurat]

Dependending upon biological and ecological energetic status, energy flow into and from the body may be depandent on bloded one above, which many people may think some super energy waves.

That's a pretty strange term for food.

Probably, Non-equilibrium in body's thermodynamics may mean disorder and equilibrium in it may means order in body.

Non-equilibrium status is what we like to call being alive. The phrase "he's achieved room temperature" is a euphemism for being dead. Which state you want to call "order" and which "disorder" is up to you, but I'd consider being dead a rather serious disorder. Personal preference, I guess.

[krazyKemist]

Hello,



Dependending upon biological and ecological energetic status, energy flow into and from the body may be depandent on bloded one above, which many people may think some super energy waves. Any change in biological and ecological's status may shake whole body and ecology in view of thermodynamics. Probably, Non-equilibrium in body's thermodynamics may mean disorder and equilibrium in it may means order in body.

Best wishes.

You really, really need to get your hands on a good chemistry book to know anything about thermodynamics, equilibrium, and non-equilibrium conditions. Let's start this way : life supposes a certain fight against entropy (which you might call disorder, although that is a little simplistic). In a closed system (one that does not receive energy or matter from outside), a spontaneous chemical reaction always results in a net increase of entropy, and proceeds until thermodynamic equilibrium is reached.

Life results in a decrease of entropy, therefore, it must receive energy from outside the system (for us, our body, for nature as a whole, the biosphere) to continue. For our bodies, this energy we take in food, when we ingest sugars, fats or proteins, and transform it into the biological energy currency, ATP. Ultimately, all the energy that life needs comes from the sun, which plants are able to transform into sugar, which animals may consume for their own continued life. So broadly, life is a state of thermodynamic desequilibrium, depending as it does on external energy sources, and remains so until death.

the Kemist

[Kumar]

You really, really need to get your hands on a good chemistry book to know anything about thermodynamics, equilibrium, and non-equilibrium conditions. Let's start this way : life supposes a certain fight against entropy (which you might call disorder, although that is a little simplistic). In a closed system (one that does not receive energy or matter from outside), a spontaneous chemical reaction always results in a net increase of entropy, and proceeds until thermodynamic equilibrium is reached.

Life results in a decrease of entropy, therefore, it must receive energy from outside the system (for us, our body, for nature as a whole, the biosphere) to continue. For our bodies, this energy we take in food, when we ingest sugars, fats or proteins, and transform it into the biological energy currency, ATP. Ultimately, all the energy that life needs comes from the sun, which plants are able to transform into sugar, which animals may consume for their own continued life. So broadly, life is a state of thermodynamic desequilibrium, depending as it does on external energy sources, and remains so until death.

the Kemist

Thanks for telling in my language. As bodt temp. is different than surrounding temp. we can say it is disordered state of TE in respect of atmosphere. Body temp. in most times may be higher than atmospheric temp., will it mean body tends to lose energy in this state and gain when atmospheric temp. is higher than body temp. in view of TE? How body will be benefited, if we live in similar temp. as of our body?

About non-equib. and equib., I meant within body.

Let us think, if any chemical/biochemical or energetic change happens in our body(change in body status) or in surroundings/ecological, will it not result in to either energy moving from our body to atmosphere or from atmosphere to body due to TE?

[Kumar]

That's a pretty strange term for food.



Non-equilibrium status is what we like to call being alive. The phrase "he's achieved room temperature" is a euphemism for being dead. Which state you want to call "order" and which "disorder" is up to you, but I'd consider being dead a rather serious disorder. Personal preference, I guess.

Yes, as body temp. remains most of the time different from surrounding temp. What about living in somewhat same temp. as of our body? It is not going to make us dead.

When body status is changed due to chemical, biochemical or energy changes in our body or by such changes in our surrounding/ecological, will there be flow of energy from or to our body in view of TE?

[ben m]

Yes, as body temp. remains most of the time different from surrounding temp. What about living in somewhat same temp. as of our body? It is not going to make us dead.

Sorry, that is wrong. It is "going to make us dead". Sitting around in a humid, 98.6 degree room will kill you. Every part of your body produces heat energy. Normally, the heat produced IN your body is equal to the heat LOST through your skin and sweat, so your body stays the same temperature. Your skin cannot lose heat unless the air is cooler or drier than the skin. If your body produces heat faster than your skin loses it, then your body temperature will go up. This is called "heat stroke" and it can kill you.

[Kumar]

Sorry, that is wrong. It is "going to make us dead". Sitting around in a humid, 98.6 degree room will kill you. Every part of your body produces heat energy. Normally, the heat produced IN your body is equal to the heat LOST through your skin and sweat, so your body stays the same temperature. Your skin cannot lose heat unless the air is cooler or drier than the skin. If your body produces heat faster than your skin loses it, then your body temperature will go up. This is called "heat stroke" and it can kill you.

Do you mean, if surrounding temp. is 98.6 degree, is its going to kill us? Can't we consider temp. alone, why we need to consider humudity?

[ben m]

Do you mean, if surrounding temp. is 98.6 degree, is its going to kill us? Can't we consider temp. alone, why we need to consider humudity?

If it is hot and dry, you can lose heat by sweating. If it is too humid, sweat does not evaporate and it cannot carry away heat.

[Kumar]

If it is hot and dry, you can lose heat by sweating. If it is too humid, sweat does not evaporate and it cannot carry away heat.


Yes, still heat is ultimate. My other question was, if we live in 98.6F environmental temp., how it will effect us?

[PixyMisa]

Yes, still heat is ultimate. My other question was, if we live in 98.6F environmental temp., how it will effect us?
Is it just me, or is there an echo in here?

[arthwollipot]

Yes, still heat is ultimate. My other question was, if we live in 98.6F environmental temp., how it will effect us?

Is it just me, or is there an echo in here?





:D
Sorry, couldn't resist. Another Kumar thread! Whee!

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks for telling in my language. As bodt temp. is different than surrounding temp. we can say it is disordered state of TE in respect of atmosphere. Body temp. in most times may be higher than atmospheric temp., will it mean body tends to lose energy in this state and gain when atmospheric temp. is higher than body temp. in view of TE? How body will be benefited, if we live in similar temp. as of our body?

About non-equib. and equib., I meant within body.

Let us think, if any chemical/biochemical or energetic change happens in our body(change in body status) or in surroundings/ecological, will it not result in to either energy moving from our body to atmosphere or from atmosphere to body due to TE?The body cannot absorb energy in the form of heat. The body can at best save energy because the surrounding temperature is ideal. Btw, the ideal ambient temperature is lower than the body temperature, because the body produces heat for other reasons than for keeping warm.

Hans

[Kumar]

Can't body absorb any energy, light, magnetic or heat?

Eventhough it can't, will there be variation in saving and releasing energy by body due to different ambient temperature?

To understand biological ecological energy exchanges one can gett following conditions;

Skin hot & dry.
Skin hot and moist.
Skin cold and dry.
Skin cold and moist.
Feeling hot but skin is cold.
Felling cold but skin is hot.

How we get these?

Though body's thermoregulation mechanism regulate normal temperature but still body may have to work more or less or spend more or less energy due to vatiations in ambient heat and humidity?

[Zep]

Can't body absorb any energy, light, magnetic or heat? No.

Eventhough it can't, will there be variation in saving and releasing energy by body due to different ambient temperature?

To understand biological ecological energy exchanges one can gett following conditions;

Skin hot & dry.
Skin hot and moist.
Skin cold and dry.
Skin cold and moist.
Feeling hot but skin is cold.
Felling cold but skin is hot.

How we get these?

Though body's thermoregulation mechanism regulate normal temperature but still body may have to work more or less or spend more or less energy due to vatiations in ambient heat and humidity?Why do you bother asking questions if you agree it isn't going to happen?

[Deetee]

Kumar,
Do you have any idea what the "tag" function is for?

[Zep]

Kumar,
Do you have any idea what the "tag" function is for?Fixed. :D

[fagin]

Kumar, I think your answer is to dye yourself green and call it photosynthesis.
I think you can absorb heat though. Like putting a kitten in a microwave.

[Mashuna]

Kumar,
Do you have any idea what the "tag" function is for?

In this case, to warn people that this is a Kumar thread.

[Kumar]

Sorry, though body thermoregulate normal temperature, this is another aspect, but how thermodynamic principles will not apply to body, if ambient temperature is bit higher than body's normal temperature?

Thermoregulation is the ability of an organism to keep its body temperature within certain boundaries, even when temperature surrounding is very different. This process is one aspect of homeostasis: a dynamic state of stability between an animal's internal environment and its external environment (the study of such processes in zoology has been called ecophysiology or physiological ecology). If the body is unable to maintain a normal temperature and it increases significantly above normal, a condition known as hyperthermia occurs. The opposite condition, when body temperature decreases below normal levels, is known as hypothermia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoregulation

I am reading it. But I want to evalute body's efforts and variations in spending energy in maintaining normal temperature.

Few people standing at same place, same time with same abient temperature and humidity. Can they experiance different conditions(skin hot and moist, hot & dry etc.) realated to heat and moisture in their body? If yes, how inspite all maintain normal temperature?

[Zep]

Sorry, though body thermoregulate normal temperature, this is another aspect, but how thermodynamic principles will not apply to body, if ambient temperature is bit higher than body's normal temperature?



I am reading it. But I want to evalute body's efforts and variations in spending energy in maintaining normal temperature.

Few people standing at same place, same time with same abient temperature and humidity. Can they experiance different conditions(skin hot and moist, hot & dry etc.) realated to heat and moisture in their body? If yes, how inspite all maintain normal temperature?You say you are reading it, then you say "but". That means you aren't really reading it at all.

[Kumar]

Avoid Nit-pick. I am reading not studied and yet understood.

[Zep]

Avoid Nit-pick. I am reading not studied and yet understood.Suggestion: Why don't you come back here when you HAVE studied it, and you DO understand?

[Ziggurat]

Sorry, though body thermoregulate normal temperature, this is another aspect, but how thermodynamic principles will not apply to body, if ambient temperature is bit higher than body's normal temperature?

It's called sweat - surely you've noticed your body tends to do this when it's hot? The entropy increase due to evaporation of water allows the body to dump heat even when the external environment is higher temperature. No violation of thermodynamics is involved. If you ever think there is, it's because you're missing something, not because thermodynamics is wrong.

[Kumar]

It's called sweat - surely you've noticed your body tends to do this when it's hot? The entropy increase due to evaporation of water allows the body to dump heat even when the external environment is higher temperature. No violation of thermodynamics is involved. If you ever think there is, it's because you're missing something, not because thermodynamics is wrong.

That is thermoregulation. Whether body has not to do more or less work to regulate normal temperature if ambient temperature is less or more?

Btw, when few people are standing in a hotter area at same time, few get sweat and feel differently than others who don't get sweat, still maintaig normal body temperature? ??

[krazyKemist]

Thanks for telling in my language. As bodt temp. is different than surrounding temp. we can say it is disordered state of TE in respect of atmosphere. Body temp. in most times may be higher than atmospheric temp., will it mean body tends to lose energy in this state and gain when atmospheric temp. is higher than body temp. in view of TE? How body will be benefited, if we live in similar temp. as of our body?

As I said, speaking of entropy as disorder is a little simplistic. Entropy designates, or is proportional to, the number of degrees of freedom available to a system.

Body temperature being higher than the surroundings means that it is not at thermodynamic equilibrium. It supposes a kind of 'order' rather than 'disorder'. Like having red balls and blue balls separate supposes is a more ordered state (which is at desequilibrium) than mixing them all together (which is at equilibrium).

Body temperature is regulated for us warm-blooded creatures (mammals and birds). That allows us a greater range of environments than cold-blooded creatures (reptiles). Why is body temperature so important ? It's because life is a chemical phenomenon, and reaction rates are dependant upon temperature. Our bodies are maintained at the optimal temperature for good functionning of the chemical processes that keep us alive.

When it is cold, we do lose energy in an effort to keep warm. Another thing than happens is that blood circulation is decreased to extremities (fingers, nose, ears, toes, ect.) in an effort to avoid losing too much heat and maintain vital organs at the correct temperature. However, when it is too hot, the reverse situation happens in an effort to shed heat. If the body cannot keep the correct temperature, key chemical processes are disturbed, and it dies.

Unfortunately, our bodies are not made to absorb energy in heat form. Think of energy as money. Some currencies are accepted by some systems, and not by others. Example : your TV runs on electricity, and cannot be run on food. However, your body takes food, but will react quite badly to electricity.

About non-equib. and equib., I meant within body.

Let us think, if any chemical/biochemical or energetic change happens in our body(change in body status) or in surroundings/ecological, will it not result in to either energy moving from our body to atmosphere or from atmosphere to body due to TE?

Not as such. Homeostasis and thermodynamic equilibrium are two very different things. The first is about the conditions needed for our bodies to function, the second about the state of a chemical system where product concentrations have stopped changing because they have reached the lowest free energy conditions available.

Therefore, homeostasis is not about energy as such, except for the fact that it demands a given amount of energy in the form of food to be maintained. It is about maintaining correct levels in all the conditions (temperature, elements that our bodies can't produce, ect.) necessary for continued life.

the Kemist

[Ziggurat]

That is thermoregulation.

Yes it is. But it still obeys thermodynamics.

Whether body has not to do more or less work to regulate normal temperature if ambient temperature is less or more?

Your english skills are bad enough that I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to ask. But there is an optimal temperature range for the human body (not identical for everyone, and it can shift for individuals too by aclimatizing to different temperatures).

Btw, when few people are standing in a hotter area at same time, few get sweat and feel differently than others who don't get sweat, still maintaig normal body temperature? ??

Because people's bodies aren't all the same. The amount of heat different people generate, as well as their body's efficiency in getting rid of that heat, isn't the same for everyone.

[Kumar]

Yes it is. But it still obeys thermodynamics.



Your english skills are bad enough that I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to ask. But there is an optimal temperature range for the human body (not identical for everyone, and it can shift for individuals too by aclimatizing to different temperatures).



Because people's bodies aren't all the same. The amount of heat different people generate, as well as their body's efficiency in getting rid of that heat, isn't the same for everyone.

Sorry, pls try to manage.

A person standing in ambient temp. 40 degree C, still not getting sweat. How can he maintain normal temperature?

[arthwollipot]

He can't.

[Kumar]

As I said, speaking of entropy as disorder is a little simplistic. Entropy designates, or is proportional to, the number of degrees of freedom available to a system.

Body temperature being higher than the surroundings means that it is not at thermodynamic equilibrium. It supposes a kind of 'order' rather than 'disorder'. Like having red balls and blue balls separate supposes is a more ordered state (which is at desequilibrium) than mixing them all together (which is at equilibrium).

In term of body, normal temp. by thermoregulation can be considered as ordered state but not in terms of environment. When we lose or gain heat due to any reason, don't we feel energy is going out or coming in to body? If so, will it not interpret, what people feel or say about incoming waves/energy etc.?

Body temperature is regulated for us warm-blooded creatures (mammals and birds). That allows us a greater range of environments than cold-blooded creatures (reptiles). Why is body temperature so important ? It's because life is a chemical phenomenon, and reaction rates are dependant upon temperature. Our bodies are maintained at the optimal temperature for good functionning of the chemical processes that keep us alive.

When it is cold, we do lose energy in an effort to keep warm. Another thing than happens is that blood circulation is decreased to extremities (fingers, nose, ears, toes, ect.) in an effort to avoid losing too much heat and maintain vital organs at the correct temperature. However, when it is too hot, the reverse situation happens in an effort to shed heat. If the body cannot keep the correct temperature, key chemical processes are disturbed, and it dies.

As such by manipulating heat and cold can we manipulate circulation to different parts as per need?

Unfortunately, our bodies are not made to absorb energy in heat form. Think of energy as money. Some currencies are accepted by some systems, and not by others. Example : your TV runs on electricity, and cannot be run on food. However, your body takes food, but will react quite badly to electricity.

It is due to manipulation/thermoregulation. What about light and magnetic fields? How body can't absorb these? We do get results from sunlight(vit.D) and gravity.



Not as such. Homeostasis and thermodynamic equilibrium are two very different things. The first is about the conditions needed for our bodies to function, the second about the state of a chemical system where product concentrations have stopped changing because they have reached the lowest free energy conditions available.

Therefore, homeostasis is not about energy as such, except for the fact that it demands a given amount of energy in the form of food to be maintained. It is about maintaining correct levels in all the conditions (temperature, elements that our bodies can't produce, ect.) necessary for continued life.

the Kemist

Yes. Can you tell about, how different people experiance differently (as under) in same ambient temp. to them;


Skin hot & dry.
Skin hot and moist.
Skin cold and dry.
Skin cold and moist.
Feeling hot but skin is cold.
Felling cold but skin is hot.

[Kumar]

He can't.

Ok then, i shall try for him, whatever best.

[Ziggurat]

Sorry, pls try to manage.

A person standing in ambient temp. 40 degree C, still not getting sweat. How can he maintain normal temperature?

What makes you think he isn't sweating? The fact that his skin isn't wet? All that means is that the sweat is evaporating as fast as it's getting expelled from the skin. It doesn't mean he isn't sweating.

[Kumar]

double posting deleted.

[Kumar]

What makes you think he isn't sweating? The fact that his skin isn't wet? All that means is that the sweat is evaporating as fast as it's getting expelled from the skin. It doesn't mean he isn't sweating.

Ok, I might have not observed particularly.

Whatever, I think, it is sure that body has to manipulate to maintain normal temperature depending on body and surroundings heat and moisture status. As such, if we manipulate surroundings or body status, body has to manipulate a lot as per these status.

Can such manipulations and their impacts express as if some energy is either coming in or going out of body?

[s-c spell-checked]

[krazyKemist]

In term of body, normal temp. by thermoregulation can be considered as ordered state but not in terms of environment. When we lose or gain heat due to any reason, don't we feel energy is going out or coming in to body? If so, will it not interpret, what people feel or say about incoming waves/energy etc.?

What you feel is fatigue, because your body is fighting to maintain its temperature, using mechanisms I'm not very familiar with (a doctor could describe those better). These mechanisms consume calories, which come from the food you eat. So in this case, you use the energy stored in food, transform it into ATP, and ATP is transformed into heat. That is the way energy circulates in different systems, by different transformations. Energy, like money, always has some form, which is or isn't compatible with a given system.

As such by manipulating heat and cold can we manipulate circulation to different parts as per need?

Yes. This is the principle behind the application of heat pads to strained muscles by physiotherapists. Cold is also used to reduce inflammation. However our bodies are made so that this is not easily possible for vital organs. Temperature in those vary only when all control has been lost, as happens in hypothermia or heat stroke, which are very dangerous phenomena.

It is due to manipulation/thermoregulation. What about light and magnetic fields? How body can't absorb these? We do get results from sunlight(vit.D) and gravity.

Not in any meaningful way. Weak magnetic fields only have a measurable impact on ferromagnetic materials, such as iron metal. The iron in blood is in oxidized form, and therefore not ferromagnetic. The magnetic field of an MRI machine is several orders of magnitude stronger than that of any everyday magnet and has no measurable effect on the body.

Light (in a restricted range of wavelenghts) is absorbed by plants as energy, but not by us. We only happen to be sensitive to it as as stimulus. UV light promotes the synthesis of vit. D in the skin from lanosterol, but this is not an energy source as such, as a coenzyme, or necessary building block if you prefer. Lanosterol happens to be present in the skin because it is also the precursor of cholesterol, with is extremely important in skin.

Yes. Can you tell about, how different people experiance differently (as under) in same ambient temp. to them;

Stimuli are different from energy. Higher animals like us have a nervous system which, with the help of sensitive organs, enables us to react rapidly, and thus survive, to changes in environment.

Imagine your brain is a computer. Peripherics such as drives, screen, mouse, ect. allows it to receive information and react to it, just like our eyes, nose , ears and skin sense things and limbs can react to them. The computer has a power supply to give it energy just like we have food to give us ours. The mouse does not give energy to the computer; on the contrary, it has to expend a little energy to allow it to work. Similarly, our eyes do not give us energy via the light they sense, but they must be fed energy in order to work.

Skin hot & dry.
Skin hot and moist.
Skin cold and dry.
Skin cold and moist.
Feeling hot but skin is cold.
Felling cold but skin is hot.

These are sensations due to the physical phenomena happening to your skin. If you feel hot, you are sweating. Sweating is one of the mechanisms by which your body gets rid of exces heat. It works by evaporation. Evaporation is the transformation of a liquid (water), which has lower energy, to a gas (vapour), which has higher energy. Since in the universe, nothing is created nor destroyed (only transformed), the energy that goes into the gas has to come from somewhere. It comes from you, in the form of exces heat. Thus your skin feels cold. Similarly, if you're cold, your body will try to generate heat. If you touch your skin with your hand, in which the circulation has been decreased for protection and is thus colder than the rest of your body, your skin will feel hot.

the Kemist

[Ziggurat]

Can such manipulations and their impacts express as if some energy is either coming in or going out of body?

Energy must go into the body on a regular basis. It's called food, I already pointed that out to you. Food provides the energy we need to survive, and as food is used up, it generates heat. That heat must be expelled from the body one way or another, or you'll overheat and die. Is any of this "manipulation"? Depends what you mean by that word, and the fact that I've got no clue about what you mean suggests that you probably don't have a very good idea either. It seems mostly that you're setting yourself up for confusion by using a term that doesn't really mean anything in this context.

[Zep]

There's a heap of good books on the function of the human body, Kumar.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=human+body+info&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

[Kumar]

Energy must go into the body on a regular basis. It's called food, I already pointed that out to you. Food provides the energy we need to survive, and as food is used up, it generates heat. That heat must be expelled from the body one way or another, or you'll overheat and die. Is any of this "manipulation"? Depends what you mean by that word, and the fact that I've got no clue about what you mean suggests that you probably don't have a very good idea either. It seems mostly that you're setting yourself up for confusion by using a term that doesn't really mean anything in this context.

Many people, esp. those mediating, do feel as some energy is coming or going out of body, what is this?

[Ziggurat]

Many people, esp. those mediating, do feel as some energy is coming or going out of body, what is this?

The body doesn't have nerves capable of sensing "energy" coming into or flowing out of the body. They're feeling various sensations which they interpret that way, but that's not the same thing.

[Kumar]

What you feel is fatigue, because your body is fighting to maintain its temperature, using mechanisms I'm not very familiar with (a doctor could describe those better). These mechanisms consume calories, which come from the food you eat. So in this case, you use the energy stored in food, transform it into ATP, and ATP is transformed into heat. That is the way energy circulates in different systems, by different transformations. Energy, like money, always has some form, which is or isn't compatible with a given system.

In brief, can we say that body's normal temperature regulation/manipulation is an interpretaion to feeling of enegy going out or coming to the body?

When a person is relaxed or physically inactive AND actice/tensed, naturally his blood circulation might be affecting. It can cause variations in heat flow out of body.



Yes. This is the principle behind the application of heat pads to strained muscles by physiotherapists. Cold is also used to reduce inflammation. However our bodies are made so that this is not easily possible for vital organs. Temperature in those vary only when all control has been lost, as happens in hypothermia or heat stroke, which are very dangerous phenomena.

Yes, these may be affecting blood flow? Tell me how we feel hot inspite of skin is felt cold and opposite?



Not in any meaningful way. Weak magnetic fields only have a measurable impact on ferromagnetic materials, such as iron metal. The iron in blood is in oxidized form, and therefore not ferromagnetic. The magnetic field of an MRI machine is several orders of magnitude stronger than that of any everyday magnet and has no measurable effect on the body.

Light (in a restricted range of wavelenghts) is absorbed by plants as energy, but not by us. We only happen to be sensitive to it as as stimulus. UV light promotes the synthesis of vit. D in the skin from lanosterol, but this is not an energy source as such, as a coenzyme, or necessary building block if you prefer. Lanosterol happens to be present in the skin because it is also the precursor of cholesterol, with is extremely important in skin.

As such, can we conclude that magnet and colour therapy can't be affective in meaningful way?



Stimuli are different from energy. Higher animals like us have a nervous system which, with the help of sensitive organs, enables us to react rapidly, and thus survive, to changes in environment.

Imagine your brain is a computer. Peripherics such as drives, screen, mouse, ect. allows it to receive information and react to it, just like our eyes, nose , ears and skin sense things and limbs can react to them. The computer has a power supply to give it energy just like we have food to give us ours. The mouse does not give energy to the computer; on the contrary, it has to expend a little energy to allow it to work. Similarly, our eyes do not give us energy via the light they sense, but they must be fed energy in order to work.



These are sensations due to the physical phenomena happening to your skin. If you feel hot, you are sweating. Sweating is one of the mechanisms by which your body gets rid of exces heat. It works by evaporation. Evaporation is the transformation of a liquid (water), which has lower energy, to a gas (vapour), which has higher energy. Since in the universe, nothing is created nor destroyed (only transformed), the energy that goes into the gas has to come from somewhere. It comes from you, in the form of exces heat. Thus your skin feels cold. Similarly, if you're cold, your body will try to generate heat. If you touch your skin with your hand, in which the circulation has been decreased for protection and is thus colder than the rest of your body, your skin will feel hot.

the Kemist

Is there difference between feeling hot or cold and actual hot or cold?

[Kumar]

The body doesn't have nerves capable of sensing "energy" coming into or flowing out of the body. They're feeling various sensations which they interpret that way, but that's not the same thing.

Does it mean, as we feel sunlight as hot and cold waves as cold? On relaxing/mediating, whether blood circulation increases or decreasing resulting increase or decrease in radiation of heat? When a person is relaxing or mediating, whether he is leaving more heat of of body or lesser?

[PixyMisa]

In brief, can we say that body's normal temperature regulation/manipulation is an interpretaion to feeling of enegy going out or coming to the body?
No, because that made no sense.

When a person is relaxed or physically inactive AND actice/tensed, naturally his blood circulation might be affecting. It can cause variations in heat flow out of body.
Blood circulation does effect heat loss, and as has been noted, is part of the body's temperature regulation mechanism.

Yes, these may be affecting blood flow?
These what?

Tell me how we feel hot inspite of skin is felt cold and opposite?
Your sense of body temperature isn't a simple, reliable thermometer. It's largely relative, for one thing.

As such, can we conclude that magnet and colour therapy can't be affective in meaningful way?
YES!

Is there difference between feeling hot or cold and actual hot or cold?
Yes.

Put one hand in a bowl of ice water, and the other in a bowl of hot water. Wait a minute or so. Now switch hands.

[Zep]

Put one hand in a bowl of ice water, and the other in a bowl of hot water. Wait a minute or so. Now switch hands.Or put them both in the same bowl of tepid water. The water is one temp, but it feels very different for each hand.

[PixyMisa]

Yes, that's even better.

[Kumar]

No, because that made no sense.

How one practicing meditations or otherwise feel as if energy is coming in or going out of body?


Blood circulation does effect heat loss, and as has been noted, is part of the body's temperature regulation mechanism.

Can feeling of flow of energy into and out of body be variations in blood flow dependant?


These what?

I meant, various meditations, spritual or so thought as energetic practices results just manipulating blood flow?


Your sense of body temperature isn't a simple, reliable thermometer. It's largely relative, for one thing.


YES!


Yes.

Put one hand in a bowl of ice water, and the other in a bowl of hot water. Wait a minute or so. Now switch hands.

That is a point. What is physiology behind feeling differently?

When we put hand in hot water than body temp., whether body absorb heat?

[Kumar]

Or put them both in the same bowl of tepid water. The water is one temp, but it feels very different for each hand.

How it happens, physiologically?

[Kumar]

Furthur;

When we put one palm of hand on any body part, it is felt warmer and actually become warmer. How it happens? Whether blood flow changes at that part?

[PixyMisa]

How it happens, physiologically?
Your sense of temperature is largely relative. This sort of thing is common across all the senses - you are generally far more aware of change than of stead state.

[arthwollipot]

How one practicing meditations or otherwise feel as if energy is coming in or going out of body?

Imagination.

People in a meditative state try to reduce all active thought, which means that the mind goes partially into dream mode. When they start off by learning that meditation is a way to manipulate energy, their brain naturally interprets the semi-dream state in these terms.

You should have heard some of the stuff my old tai chi instructor used to go on about. As a warmup he got us to whirl our arm around from the shoulder as fast as we could. When we stopped he said "feel that tingling sensation in your fingers? That's chi!"

No, it was blood. But the mind interprets sensations in accord with what we have learned.

[Kumar]

Imagination.

People in a meditative state try to reduce all active thought, which means that the mind goes partially into dream mode. When they start off by learning that meditation is a way to manipulate energy, their brain naturally interprets the semi-dream state in these terms.

Whether blood flow is not affected by meditations, relaxations or following other spritual practices? A person practicing these do feel warming or cooling sensations. I think, body or some parts also become warmer or cooler during or after such practicing. Is it not some kind of variations in local or systemic blood flow or congestion (due to relaxed conditions)? Mind on any sensation may manipulate blood flow.

You should have heard some of the stuff my old tai chi instructor used to go on about. As a warmup he got us to whirl our arm around from the shoulder as fast as we could. When we stopped he said "feel that tingling sensation in your fingers? That's chi!"

No, it was blood. But the mind interprets sensations in accord with what we have learned.

Is it local hyperemia?

[fagin]

Imagination

Bit late but hopefully short enough to be understood

[Kumar]

Your sense of temperature is largely relative. This sort of thing is common across all the senses - you are generally far more aware of change than of stead state.

Is it just a sensation or actual warming of that area? When touched after sometime of removing palm, that area is warmer on touch? If putting palm on a part for some time make that part warm, there should be increase in blood flow to that part due to heat. When we are covered during sleep with a blanket, it also warms us, probably radiation from body is not going into air.

[Belz...]

Many people, esp. those mediating, do feel as some energy is coming or going out of body, what is this?

Physics.

[Zep]

Is it just a sensation or actual warming of that area?It is both, It feels warmer because your hands are used to feeling relatively cool air around them most of the time. If they hold something warm, they will dilate and transfer heat more readily in or out of your body.

Your hands have a very good blood supply in them. Surface blood vessels are not distributed evenly all over your body. They are denser on your hands, feet and head for the specific purpose of radiating and absorbing heat as required, which is why cuts to those areas bleed more readily than others.

When touched after sometime of removing palm, that area is warmer on touch?Yes, for a few moments.

If putting palm on a part for some time make that part warm, there should be increase in blood flow to that part due to heat.Yes.


When we are covered during sleep with a blanket, it also warms us, probably radiation from body is not going into air.Wrong. Heat from your body DOES go into the air that is trapped between your body and the blanket. Some heat does escape through the blanket, so the temperature will eventually balance out. The blanket and warm air are what keep your body at a comfortable temperature while sleeping.

If you have a blanket that is too efficient (usually too thick), it keeps too much heat in, and you will feel too hot. If it is too thin, it lets too much heat escape, and you feel cold. On nights when it is very hot, you need moving air or cool air to take excess body heat away to feel comfortable. That is why a fan or air-conditioning is needed. Your body will also sweat while you sleep in an effort to increase the cooling effect by evaporation. However if it is too humid, this evaporation will not happen, and that is when you get to feel too hot and sticky to sleep comfortable.

Kumar, this is the sort of thing that children learn in junior school, well before high school. Can I ask if this is the level of education we need to pitch our responses at?

[Kumar]

It is both, It feels warmer because your hands are used to feeling relatively cool air around them most of the time. If they hold something warm, they will dilate and transfer heat more readily in or out of your body.

If hands temp. is more due to very good blood supply, then when we shall keep it on other part of body, it will enable that area to get more blood supply and become warmer. Ok?

Your hands have a very good blood supply in them. Surface blood vessels are not distributed evenly all over your body. They are denser on your hands, feet and head for the specific purpose of radiating and absorbing heat as required, which is why cuts to those areas bleed more readily than others.

Yes, for a few moments.

Yes.
Thanks. So it is clear that Flow of energy imagination, on meditation and other practices, might be felt more in head and hands due to very good blood supply and manipulations in blood flow. I can't say about feet.


Wrong. Heat from your body DOES go into the air that is trapped between your body and the blanket. Some heat does escape through the blanket, so the temperature will eventually balance out. The blanket and warm air are what keep your body at a comfortable temperature while sleeping.

Right, we do feel cold later by light coverings. Anyway, Whether heat is trapped between hand and body part, when hand is kept on body part?

If you have a blanket that is too efficient (usually too thick), it keeps too much heat in, and you will feel too hot. If it is too thin, it lets too much heat escape, and you feel cold. On nights when it is very hot, you need moving air or cool air to take excess body heat away to feel comfortable. That is why a fan or air-conditioning is needed. Your body will also sweat while you sleep in an effort to increase the cooling effect by evaporation. However if it is too humid, this evaporation will not happen, and that is when you get to feel too hot and sticky to sleep comfortable.

Kumar, this is the sort of thing that children learn in junior school, well before high school. Can I ask if this is the level of education we need to pitch our responses at?

1. Why we feel hot if ambient temp. is below body temp and need fan or airconditioning? Is there any normal temp when we need airconditioning/fan and heating?

2. During night, do we usually dilate and relax our blood vessels by sleep or by covering?

My short thought was, whether manipulation in blood flow and ambient atmosphere can be an impression of energy from in and out of body, which people may take it as super/cosmic ray or otherwise. But as different discussions are started, things are moving from basics. No problem, we can refresh. I love your this type reply.

[Kumar]

Imagination

Bit late but hopefully short enough to be understood

In short, all impressions of energy flow (other than we can sense easily as fire/sunlight etc.) are due to variations or manipulations in blood flow & ambient temp/humidity. As there is very good supply of blood in hands & head (feet?), such impressions can be better felt in these parts. Ok?

Previously, elaswhere I discussed lot about strange cosmic rays but, i just remember, existance and interactions with us were rare. Ok?

[Belz...]

You're a weird bird, Kumar.

[Ziggurat]

As there is very good supply of blood in hands & head (feet?), such impressions can be better felt in these parts. Ok?

Hands and feet do not have better blood flow than other parts of the body - in fact, it's often the reverse. What they have is a high density of nerves, plus the fact that the variability in blood flow to the hands and feet is larger. Because you don't have much muscle in your hands or feet (they're mostly controlled by muscles in your forarm and your calf/shin), blood flow to these parts of the body can be decreased by a large amount very easily, which is what your body does (in order to conserve heat) when you get cold.

Your head does have very good blood flow as well as lots of nerves, though. Since your brian is a rather vital organ and doesn't work very well when too hot or too cold, the body will try very hard to keep your head (at least, the inside of your head) at a constant temperature.

[krazyKemist]

In brief, can we say that body's normal temperature regulation/manipulation is an interpretaion to feeling of enegy going out or coming to the body?

Not exactly an interpretation. Energy is actually going out, in the shape of heat. Keep in mind that energy must always have a form. We feel or sense it in some forms, with our senses, and not in others. In that particular case, you feel cold, and tired from shivering.

But if for example I put a radioactive source in your hand, energy is getting out of it in the form of gamma radiations. Your body isn't equiped to sense this, so you wont feel anything peculiar while your hand is getting irradiated.

When a person is relaxed or physically inactive AND actice/tensed, naturally his blood circulation might be affecting. It can cause variations in heat flow out of body.

Yes. Somebody who feels stress may feel cold because of the blood leaving extremities to concentrate near vital organs in preparation for what is called the 'fight or flight' response. Some people with blood circulation diseases also constantly feel cold (I know one such person).

Yes, these may be affecting blood flow? Tell me how we feel hot inspite of skin is felt cold and opposite?

That is because of the evaporation which takes place locally on your skin due to perspiration. Evaporation takes energy in the form of heat. You will feel the same if you get wet and don't wrap yourself in a thick towel. For the opposite, it is because you are losing heat to the environment via your skin, and because hands are colder than the rest of the body when it's cold, your skin feels hot to the touch.

As such, can we conclude that magnet and colour therapy can't be affective in meaningful way?

These haven't been proven effective in any way by sound science. As a chemist I (and many others) have worked with machines possessing the most powerful supraconducting magnets ever made (orders of magnitude more powerful than the Earth's magnetic field) with no adverse or beneficial effect. Only my credit card and memory stick have suffered, because those are magnetic storage media.

Is there difference between feeling hot or cold and actual hot or cold?

Actual 'hot' or 'cold' are relative terms. For a star like the sun, 'hot' means millions degrees in its core and 'cold' means a mere 2000 degrees at its edge. For us, 2000 degrees is quite hot !

Feeling 'cold' or 'hot' is something that is reported by yours senses, and thus is subject to interpretation. And that interpretation is influenced a lot by your actual state. Somebody can be in the same room as you, and you may feel it's cold, and the other person may feel it's hot. It can be for many reasons : maybe that person is more used to cold than you are, or has just come in the room running and needing to shed excess heat, ect.

the Kemist

[Kumar]

Hands and feet do not have better blood flow than other parts of the body - in fact, it's often the reverse. What they have is a high density of nerves, plus the fact that the variability in blood flow to the hands and feet is larger. Because you don't have much muscle in your hands or feet (they're mostly controlled by muscles in your forarm and your calf/shin), blood flow to these parts of the body can be decreased by a large amount very easily, which is what your body does (in order to conserve heat) when you get cold.

Your head does have very good blood flow as well as lots of nerves, though. Since your brian is a rather vital organ and doesn't work very well when too hot or too cold, the body will try very hard to keep your head (at least, the inside of your head) at a constant temperature.

As such, will these parts not get much impression of energy/heat flow due to more nerves and due to more impact of blood flow variations?

[Kumar]

Not exactly an interpretation. Energy is actually going out, in the shape of heat. Keep in mind that energy must always have a form. We feel or sense it in some forms, with our senses, and not in others. In that particular case, you feel cold, and tired from shivering.

But if for example I put a radioactive source in your hand, energy is getting out of it in the form of gamma radiations. Your body isn't equiped to sense this, so you wont feel anything peculiar while your hand is getting irradiated.

That can be an impression by less or more heat is going out from head o hands. As tols, these part can experiance much variations in blood flow and have more nerves. We don't commonly interact and experiance radioactive forms of energy.



Yes. Somebody who feels stress may feel cold because of the blood leaving extremities to concentrate near vital organs in preparation for what is called the 'fight or flight' response. Some people with blood circulation diseases also constantly feel cold (I know one such person).

On meditation or on other spritual practices, I think blood flow is increased to head and hands. Therefore these are felt as warmer and actually more heat is leaving the body which may create an impression of energy flow. I don't think such impression is there when one is cold due to decreased blood flow in these parts or in extremities.



That is because of the evaporation which takes place locally on your skin due to perspiration. Evaporation takes energy in the form of heat. You will feel the same if you get wet and don't wrap yourself in a thick towel. For the opposite, it is because you are losing heat to the environment via your skin, and because hands are colder than the rest of the body when it's cold, your skin feels hot to the touch.

Means, when we put hand on any part of body 1. evaporation can be resisted 2. radiating heat can be trapped between hand and that part. So we feel both palm and that part warmer and they are really warmer resulting increase in blood flow due to heat. Ok?



Actual 'hot' or 'cold' are relative terms. For a star like the sun, 'hot' means millions degrees in its core and 'cold' means a mere 2000 degrees at its edge. For us, 2000 degrees is quite hot !

Feeling 'cold' or 'hot' is something that is reported by yours senses, and thus is subject to interpretation. And that interpretation is influenced a lot by your actual state. Somebody can be in the same room as you, and you may feel it's cold, and the other person may feel it's hot. It can be for many reasons : maybe that person is more used to cold than you are, or has just come in the room running and needing to shed excess heat, ect.

the Kemist

If a person eat less, will he feel colder that others who eat more? How physical excercise can cause a peson to feel warmer or colder normally during the day after excercising?

[arthwollipot]

I'm very happy to see that people are generally trying to answer Kumar's questions and not just deriding him. However, I am still unsure what Kumar is trying to find out.

Kumar, may I ask you to please state as best you can what it is you are trying to establish by these questions?

[Zep]

Hands and feet do not have better blood flow than other parts of the body - in fact, it's often the reverse. What they have is a high density of nerves, plus the fact that the variability in blood flow to the hands and feet is larger. Because you don't have much muscle in your hands or feet (they're mostly controlled by muscles in your forarm and your calf/shin), blood flow to these parts of the body can be decreased by a large amount very easily, which is what your body does (in order to conserve heat) when you get cold.

Your head does have very good blood flow as well as lots of nerves, though. Since your brian is a rather vital organ and doesn't work very well when too hot or too cold, the body will try very hard to keep your head (at least, the inside of your head) at a constant temperature.While this is indeed far more accurate in the total context than what I posted for Kumar, it is also more likely to be confusing for him.

Please remember that his level of education is at the "beginner" level, and when he doesn't understand he then makes up weird stuff to fill in his gaps. So you need to give him unambiguous and simple responses he cannot misconstrue (deliberately or otherwise).

His grasp of human anatomy, for example, seems stuck at about the level of Galen and Vesalius... Really.

[Zep]

That can be an impression by less or more heat is going out from head o hands. As tols, these part can experiance much variations in blood flow and have more nerves. We don't commonly interact and experiance radioactive forms of energy. I'm not sure what you are saying here, and I think you have mixed two things up.

Yes, your hands can experience variations in blood flow. As explained above, this is a response to extreme cold or heat. Plus the density of nerves in the fingers and palms make them fair heat sensors (not perfect - you can burn your hands easily enough before you actually feel the heat).

I don't think you are using the term "radioactive forms of energy" accurately, but I'm not sure what you do mean. Do you actually mean radiant energy like light and heat?

On meditation or on other spritual practices, I think blood flow is increased to head and hands. Therefore these are felt as warmer and actually more heat is leaving the body which may create an impression of energy flow. I don't think such impression is there when one is cold due to decreased blood flow in these parts or in extremities.It is quite possible to consciously override the body's automatic responses to extreme heat and cold. It requires practice only, not spirituality. Rats can be taught the same thing in labs.

Means, when we put hand on any part of body 1. evaporation can be resisted 2. radiating heat can be trapped between hand and that part. So we feel both palm and that part warmer and they are really warmer resulting increase in blood flow due to heat. Ok?1) No, it doesn't "resist" evaporation. It prevents evaporation. Hot skin will sweat regardless. If the covering hand was hot enough and left long enough, you will get sweaty skin, i.e. unevaporated sweat.

2) Yes, that is exactly so. This is why you put your hands under your arms when it is very cold - your hands need to keep warm, and your underarms are warm!

If a person eat less, will he feel colder that others who eat more? How physical excercise can cause a peson to feel warmer or colder normally during the day after excercising?1) Yes, that is quite possible. Explorers in extremely cold places know that the body needs energy from food to keep warm. So they eat very energy-rich meals. The human body uses a LOT of energy to keep warm in extreme cold.

2) Physical exercise simply increases the body's rate of energy usage. It is like stoking a fire. More energy is burned up, more heat is produced, and it needs to be taken away from the body. The mechanisms for doing this include using the skin like a car radiator to cool the blood, sweating to increase the cooling effect, and using the lungs like bellows to blow heat away (as well as take in extra oxygen and give off CO2). Athletes who compete in very hot climates run the risk of overheating their bodies (hyperthermia). This is a very dangerous condition, it can lead to muscle degeneration, and can even be fatal.

[Zep]

I'm very happy to see that people are generally trying to answer Kumar's questions and not just deriding him. However, I am still unsure what Kumar is trying to find out.

Kumar, may I ask you to please state as best you can what it is you are trying to establish by these questions?Last question first: In the past, he was simply trying to establish some credence for his odd ideas about homeopathy and "tissue salts" by shoehorning a few real factoids into a framework of his own design.

That seems to have been left somewhat behind (although not always). He seems to be a lot more like a naif in search of reality. At least he is trying, so we are trying to help him stay on the rails as much as possible.

[Kumar]

I'm very happy to see that people are generally trying to answer Kumar's questions and not just deriding him. However, I am still unsure what Kumar is trying to find out.

Kumar, may I ask you to please state as best you can what it is you are trying to establish by these questions?

I am trying to understand or indicate, reasoning to a person getting false/true expression of energy/cosmic rays flow into or out of his body from atmosphere by practicing spritual techniques, meditations, reiki etc. Flow is well felt but that can be due to internal body reasons of blood flow type.

[Kumar]

I'm not sure what you are saying here, and I think you have mixed two things up.

Yes, your hands can experience variations in blood flow. As explained above, this is a response to extreme cold or heat. Plus the density of nerves in the fingers and palms make them fair heat sensors (not perfect - you can burn your hands easily enough before you actually feel the heat).

I don't think you are using the term "radioactive forms of energy" accurately, but I'm not sure what you do mean. Do you actually mean radiant energy like light and heat?

It is quite possible to consciously override the body's automatic responses to extreme heat and cold. It requires practice only, not spirituality. Rats can be taught the same thing in labs.

1) No, it doesn't "resist" evaporation. It prevents evaporation. Hot skin will sweat regardless. If the covering hand was hot enough and left long enough, you will get sweaty skin, i.e. unevaporated sweat.

2) Yes, that is exactly so. This is why you put your hands under your arms when it is very cold - your hands need to keep warm, and your underarms are warm!

1) Yes, that is quite possible. Explorers in extremely cold places know that the body needs energy from food to keep warm. So they eat very energy-rich meals. The human body uses a LOT of energy to keep warm in extreme cold.

2) Physical exercise simply increases the body's rate of energy usage. It is like stoking a fire. More energy is burned up, more heat is produced, and it needs to be taken away from the body. The mechanisms for doing this include using the skin like a car radiator to cool the blood, sweating to increase the cooling effect, and using the lungs like bellows to blow heat away (as well as take in extra oxygen and give off CO2). Athletes who compete in very hot climates run the risk of overheating their bodies (hyperthermia). This is a very dangerous condition, it can lead to muscle degeneration, and can even be fatal.

Thanks. In short, all these can express an false or true expression of flow of somewhat enegry/cosmic energy into and out of of body. When we put hand on other body part, there can be increase in heat or decreased loss of heat, may be causing enhanced blood flow at that part either due to heat or due to concentration of attention.

[Zep]

I am trying to understand or indicate, reasoning to a person getting false/true expression of energy/cosmic rays flow into or out of his body from atmosphere by practicing spritual techniques, meditations, reiki etc. Flow is well felt but that can be due to internal body reasons of blood flow type.By George, I think he's got it!

[arthwollipot]

I think I understand the point of the thread now. Thanks.

[Professor Yaffle]

Just out of interest, my dad does this cool trick where he makes one hand feel cold and the other hot, just by thinking about it.

[arthwollipot]

That's clever. I'd love to know how he does it.

[Professor Yaffle]

Well you can learn to do it through biofeedback - apparently it can help migraine if my skimming of some abstracts is accurate. My dad just seems to be able to do it without the feedback training.

[Zep]

Well you can learn to do it through biofeedback - apparently it can help migraine if my skimming of some abstracts is accurate. My dad just seems to be able to do it without the feedback training.
Mentioned previously!
It is quite possible to consciously override the body's automatic responses to extreme heat and cold. It requires practice only, not spirituality. Rats can be taught the same thing in labs.
Not that I'm suggesting your dad is a rat, Prof! :)

[Professor Yaffle]

Strictly speaking, of course - being a carved wooden bookend in the shape of a woodpecker - I don't have a father, just a creator.

[Kumar]

What makes different people liking and disliking to hot or cold, i.e. foods, bath etc. in same normal atmospheric temp?

[arthwollipot]

I don't know, but I always prefer to be cold than hot. After all, when you're cold you can always put more clothes on, but when you're hot there's a limit to how much you can take off.

[Henners]

You're a weird bird, Kumar.


Careful what you say. I somehow expect to see comments made to Kumar appear on a box that contains something cheap being sold as something expensive based on the writing on the box, and a free gift, of no value.

Mind where you put those magnets, now - there's no sense in making yourself depressed due to a turbulent energy flow.

[Zep]

What makes different people liking and disliking to hot or cold, i.e. foods, bath etc. in same normal atmospheric temp?The answer to that is the same as to why people have different likes and dislikes of food tastes. Because they do!

[Kumar]

Can't there be any physiological basis to these?

It is bit easier for me to manipulate these likings in any way by manipulating physiology.:)

[fagin]

Can't there be any physiological basis to these?

It is bit easier for me to manipulate these likings in any way by manipulating physiology.:)

I think Kumar is a troll robot.

[Kumar]

I think Kumar is a troll robot.

It is also quite easy for me to manipulate many conditions, so considered as serious, just for myself.:D

[MRC_Hans]

I think Kumar is a troll robot.Kumar is an inverse turing experiment: A person who pretends to be a machine.;):D

We try to disclose him as a human.

Hans

[fagin]

Kumar is an inverse turing experiment: A person who pretends to be a machine.;):D

We try to disclose him as a human.

Hans

I think he let slip his disguise - machines don't use smileys.