AIDS/Inracellular latent infections?

[Kumar]

Hello,

the triangular shapes specific to each disease pathogen and sets up a standing wave within the mass of the structure which causes an expansion of the intracellular fluids which subsequently rupture the protective coating that holds the structure together.
http://www.rifeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7683#post7683

I am not interested in discussing about this treatment or PYRO-ENERGEN treatments. But I am interested to know about possible cellular swelling and brusting/lysis as indicated in above quote, if there in AIDs and other intracellular & latent infections. Can such infectious agents, when intracellular, cause increased in cellular tonicity resulting fragile cell membrane, swelling and brusting of cells?

If yes, how such lysis/brusting can affect? Will it increase (by spread of infectious agents on lysis) or treat(premature death) the disease?

Whether, such disease are related to immune cells only?

Best wishes.

[Zep]

It's gobbledegook, Kumar. What's more, it's Rife gobbledegook. So that's gobbledegook^2.

You did happen to leave off the first sentence of that quote, didn't you!Rife machines as we know them today do not cure disease including cancer.

[Kumar]

No, I am asking disease & treatment's patho/bio-chemico/physio-logical implications. hether such diseases or their treatments are related to cellular hypertonicity, swelling, membrane changes, brusting of infected cells resulting either spread of infectious agents or their prematured killings?

Pls avoid nit-picks as I shall avoid.

[fagin]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????etc.

[fagin]

Kumar

Please use a spellcheck.

[MRC_Hans]

No, I am asking disease & treatment's patho/bio-chemico/physio-logical implications. hether such diseases or their treatments are related to cellular hypertonicity, swelling, membrane changes, brusting of infected cells resulting either spread of infectious agents or their prematured killings?

Pls avoid nit-picks as I shall avoid.

Kumar, you base your question on a nonsense reference. That is why you ask a nonsense question.

I will give you an appropriate answer:

Fish.

Hans

[Kumar]

Kumar, you base your question on a nonsense reference. That is why you ask a nonsense question.

I will give you an appropriate answer:

Fish.

Hans

That link is not a base but i am trying to know about cellular hypertonicy and swellings for some other consideration?

[Zep]

That link is not a base but i am trying to know about cellular hypertonicy and swellings for some other consideration?What do YOU mean by "cellular hypertonicy"?

[Deetee]

Kumar, the Rife machine (http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Cancer/Cancer-news/smh001230rife-aus.html) is just quackery. It cannot generate the correct RF frequencies to resonate empathetically with pathogen-transcribed DNA within host lymphocytes.

The correct way to achieve this is with the Hulda Clark Super Zapper deluxe (http://www.paradevices.com/). This has been proved to work, no argument, as demonstrated by the veracity of testimonials from recipients taken post walletectomy and pre corporal disintegration.
Guaranteed, 120%

[Zep]

No, I am asking disease & treatment's patho/bio-chemico/physio-logical implications. hether such diseases or their treatments are related to cellular hypertonicity, swelling, membrane changes, brusting of infected cells resulting either spread of infectious agents or their prematured killings?

Pls avoid nit-picks as I shall avoid.No, you have referred to a site that is full of complete rubbish. Dangerous rubbish if you believe it is true. So any further questions based on anything from that site will be questions about rubbish.

Why don't you scan through some real medical journals instead, and then ask questions?

[Zep]

Kumar, the Rife machine (http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Cancer/Cancer-news/smh001230rife-aus.html) is just quackery. It cannot generate the correct RF frequencies to resonate empathetically with pathogen-transcribed DNA within host lymphocytes.

The correct way to achieve this is with the Hulda Clark Super Zapper deluxe (http://www.paradevices.com/). This has been proved to work, no argument, as demonstrated by the veracity of testimonials from recipients taken post walletectomy and pre corporal disintegration.
Guaranteed, 120%Wow. I must buy one!

Are they safe for children, and what colours do they come in?

[Kumar]

Kumar, the Rife machine (http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Cancer/Cancer-news/smh001230rife-aus.html) is just quackery. It cannot generate the correct RF frequencies to resonate empathetically with pathogen-transcribed DNA within host lymphocytes.

The correct way to achieve this is with the Hulda Clark Super Zapper deluxe (http://www.paradevices.com/). This has been proved to work, no argument, as demonstrated by the veracity of testimonials from recipients taken post walletectomy and pre corporal disintegration.
Guaranteed, 120%

Deetee, Thanks but as I told, I am not interested in these machines as I may be having other easier alternatives. But I wated to understand patho/physiological aspects as indicated in above quote.

[Capsid]

Hello,



I am not interested in discussing about this treatment or PYRO-ENERGEN treatments. But I am interested to know about possible cellular swelling and brusting/lysis as indicated in above quote, if there in AIDs and other intracellular & latent infections. Can such infectious agents, when intracellular, cause increased in cellular tonicity resulting fragile cell membrane, swelling and brusting of cells?

If yes, how such lysis/brusting can affect? Will it increase (by spread of infectious agents on lysis) or treat(premature death) the disease?

Whether, such disease are related to immune cells only?

Best wishes.
HIV causes cells in culture to form syncitia (fuse together), cell lysis and death. Those effects are not easily seen in vivo, although syncitia have been found in brain autopsies.

[Kumar]

HIV causes cells in culture to form syncitia (fuse together), cell lysis and death. Those effects are not easily seen in vivo, although syncitia have been found in brain autopsies.

Whether such lysis is due to viral or osmotic mechanisms? I think culture is not hypotonic to infected or nor infected cells?

[Capsid]

Whether such lysis is due to viral or osmotic mechanisms? I think culture is not hypotonic to infected or nor infected cells?Viral mechanisms.

[Kumar]

Viral mechanisms.

Whether lysis in early/latent stages and late stages is harming or beneficial to patients?

[Capsid]

Whether lysis in early/latent stages and late stages is harming or beneficial to patients?I haven't seen any evidence to show that HIV is beneficial to patients.

[Kumar]

I haven't seen any evidence to show that HIV is beneficial to patients.

I haven't said HIV is benefiial to patients but asked whether prematured lysis/death of infected cells are in some benefit or loss to patient. One consideration is spread of virus as a result of cell lysis and other premature death on virus in early stages.

Whether infected cells are seprated from the tissues on infection?

[Capsid]

I haven't said HIV is benefiial to patients but asked whether prematured lysis/death of infected cells are in some benefit or loss to patient. One consideration is spread of virus as a result of cell lysis and other premature death on virus in early stages.

Whether infected cells are seprated from the tissues on infection?
A lysed/dead cell won't support viral replication, therefore no viral spread.

[Kumar]

A lysed/dead cell won't support viral replication, therefore no viral spread.

After maturation, whether virus don't break cell membrane, spread & infect other cells?

Is there any mechanism in body which takes away water of infected or weak cells, unabling their death?

[Capsid]

After maturation, whether virus don't break cell membrane, spread & infect other cells?
In some cases.

Is there any mechanism in body which takes away water of infected or weak cells, unabling their death?
No

[Kumar]

In some cases.


No

Thanks.

Whether cell membrane of infected cells changes?

Can there any relation of sulfur or sulfur containing protien in death of cells by taking away their water?

[quixotecoyote]

Fabberhagin principles create a transciptase reaction in the golgi bodies leading to a double axel in the third ion shell. Obviously the refraction inherent in the resulting catalyst pygmies the reaction found in crystalline lamprey eggs in 10c dilutions. Only through the study and cross reference of these discrete factors can a metanalysis of adequate proportions be assumed to address the latency of flaggeous infections in a sample sized population.

Sorry Caspid, but I think Kumar and I have you pinned on this one.

[Capsid]

Whether cell membrane of infected cells changes?
It changes to allow the virus to bud from the surface.

Can there any relation of sulfur or sulfur containing protien in death of cells by taking away their water?
I don't know. Isn't loss of water usually passive through salt gradients? Salt gradients are set up by ion channels (I think). But deliberate cell death is by apoptosis not water loss.

[Kumar]

It changes to allow the virus to bud from the surface.


I don't know. Isn't loss of water usually passive through salt gradients? Salt gradients are set up by ion channels (I think). But deliberate cell death is by apoptosis not water loss.

Programmed cell death is an integral part of both plant and animal tissue development. Development of an organ or tissue is often preceded by the extensive division and differentiation of a particular cell, the resultant mass is then "pruned" into the correct form by apoptosis. [b]Unlike cellular death caused by injury, apoptosis results in cell shrinkage and fragmentation. This allows the cells to be efficiently phagocytosed and their components reused without releasing potentially harmful intracellular substances into the surrounding tissue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis [/quote]

I meant, whether cell membrane changes occur during pre-maturation stage of infected cells, pathologically or enabling its apoptosis?

Above quote indicates apoptosis resultss in cell shrinkage and frangmentation. Will such shrinkage be due to loss of cellular water either due to its hypotonicity or otherwise?

[Capsid]

I meant, whether cell membrane changes occur during pre-maturation stage of infected cells, pathologically or enabling its apoptosis?
No

Above quote indicates apoptosis resultss in cell shrinkage and frangmentation. Will such shrinkage be due to loss of cellular water either due to its hypotonicity or otherwise?
No

[Kumar]

No


No

When a cell is infected by virus, how it can change in size, composition & structure?

[Taffer]

When a cell is infected by virus, how it can change in size, composition & structure?

From my limited study into virology... By virus-mediated protein production.

[Kumar]

From my limited study into virology... By virus-mediated protein production.

What changes a cells can get after such infection, in its size, structure and composition due to such infection?

[Taffer]

What changes a cells can get after such infection, in its size, structure and composition due to such infection?

Cells will be "redirected" towards viral production. Viral proteins can be produced on the surface of the cell, in some situations.

[Kumar]

Cells will be "redirected" towards viral production. Viral proteins can be produced on the surface of the cell, in some situations.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png/300px-Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytic_cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysogenic_cycle

In above image, it shows virus is actually going into the cell. When it goes in , how it will alter intracellular tonicity and composition?

[Zep]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png/300px-Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytic_cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysogenic_cycle

In above image, it shows virus is actually going into the cell. When it goes in , how it will alter intracellular tonicity and composition?Do you understand that the pictures show you the answer to this question?

[Kumar]

Do you understand that the pictures show you the answer to this question?

That is what I am asking.

[Taffer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png/300px-Viral_Reproduction_Chart.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytic_cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysogenic_cycle

In above image, it shows virus is actually going into the cell. When it goes in , how it will alter intracellular tonicity and composition?Do you understand that the pictures show you the answer to this question?That is what I am asking.

The answer to your question is given in the image.

[Kumar]

The answer to your question is given in the image.

Just check it and tell any possible relevancy;

"It(healing agent) destroys old-senile worn out cells, esp. RBCs, WBCs
and macrophases in the liver by taking away their water. Therefore,
its defficiency results into excessive useless circulating, wandering
cells in blood vessels and causes spherocytosis. Cells are enlarged but with
poor performance. They block capilalary ends and cause local ischemic
and necrotic changes.

Its defficiency causes sepretion of old cells from growing tissues.
They circulate in the body and become antigenic in nature. Thus the
body produces auto-immune bodies against these cells. Therefore, it is
usful in auto-immune disorders.."


Above are indicated physico-chemical reactions of one healing agent.
This is related to infection, autoimmunity, hypoxia to cells, hemolytic anemia, liver
infections/disorders, pyrexia of unknown origin, absorption of septic
foci/pus etc. and also thought by writer (alas!, couldn't complete his
work) for AIDs.

[Taffer]

Just check it and tell any possible relevancy;

"It(healing agent) destroys old-senile worn out cells, esp. RBCs, WBCs
and macrophases in the liver by taking away their water. Therefore,
its defficiency results into excessive useless circulating, wandering
cells in blood vessels and causes spherocytosis. Cells are enlarged but with
poor performance. They block capilalary ends and cause local ischemic
and necrotic changes.

Its defficiency causes sepretion of old cells from growing tissues.
They circulate in the body and become antigenic in nature. Thus the
body produces auto-immune bodies against these cells. Therefore, it is
usful in auto-immune disorders.."


Above are indicated physico-chemical reactions of one healing agent.
This is related to infection, autoimmunity, hypoxia to cells, hemolytic anemia, liver
infections/disorders, pyrexia of unknown origin, absorption of septic
foci/pus etc. and also thought by writer (alas!, couldn't complete his
work) for AIDs.

No.

[Kumar]

Ok, still I shall like more and detailed views on it.

[Taffer]

Ok, still I shall like more and detailed views on it.

Views on what?

What you posted has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

[Kumar]

If following can happen;

""It(healing agent) destroys old-senile worn out cells, esp. RBCs, WBCs
and macrophases in the liver by taking away their water."

Can above action be selective to infected cells in their pre-lytic cycle?

Quote in OP, may be somewhat similar action(not exact)?

[Kumar]

"Its defficiency decreases the motility and phagocytic activity of leucocytes. Therefore, acute infection leads to sub-acute and septicemic with pyrexia of unknown as well as known origin. Antiseptic and blood purifier. Third stage of inflammation where wounds are too slow to heal. Suppurative tendancy,characterised by Vent formation. It is useful in immunological defficiencies and autoimmune disroders. It is best for pyrexia of unknown origin and sub acute to chronic septicemia"

Above are few more reactions related to that healing agent. I don't know, how these can be relavent to AIDs.

[Taffer]

If following can happen;

""It(healing agent) destroys old-senile worn out cells, esp. RBCs, WBCs
and macrophases in the liver by taking away their water."

Can above action be selective to infected cells in their pre-lytic cycle?

Quote in OP, may be somewhat similar action(not exact)?

I cannot possibly begin to answer that question, without knowing what the "healing agent" is, and how it works.

I suspect it is not possible, however.

[Taffer]

"Its defficiency decreases the motility and phagocytic activity of leucocytes. Therefore, acute infection leads to sub-acute and septicemic with pyrexia of unknown as well as known origin. Antiseptic and blood purifier. Third stage of inflammation where wounds are too slow to heal. Suppurative tendancy,characterised by Vent formation. It is useful in immunological defficiencies and autoimmune disroders. It is best for pyrexia of unknown origin and sub acute to chronic septicemia"

The above quote says nothing at all. It uses many big words without appearing to know what they mean.

Above are few more reactions related to that healing agent. I don't know, how these can be relavent to AIDs.

There are no reactions. There is no mechanism given. It is just a string of slightly-related words with no meaning or evidence.

[flume]

BTW, google tells me that this quote comes from "Gems of Homoeopathic Materia Medica"
By J. D. Patil, and the healing agent being described here is homeopathic calcium sulfate (or possibly calcium sulfate as one of Schuessler's cell salts.)

[Taffer]

BTW, google tells me that this quote comes from "Gems of Homoeopathic Materia Medica"
By J. D. Patil, and the healing agent being described here is homeopathic calcium sulfate (or possibly calcium sulfate as one of Schuessler's cell salts.)

Oh look, I was right. Who'd have thunk it? :rolleyes:

[Kumar]

I cannot possibly begin to answer that question, without knowing what the "healing agent" is, and how it works.

I suspect it is not possible, however.

As I told, I am interested in understanding, whether such mechanism has some relevance (sepration of infected cells from growing cells, lysis or shirikage of cells) with AIDs, autoimmunity, hemolytic anemia etc.?

I am not interested to discuss efficacy or not.

[Kumar]

In some sense, how can we relate enlarged(Hypertrophy)-- swollen or increase in size due to infected agents or due to hypertonicity AND smaller(hypotrophy)--shirinked, hypotonic r otherwise, can be realed to abnormal immune response?

[Capsid]

In some sense, how can we relate enlarged(Hypertrophy)-- swollen or increase in size due to infected agents or due to hypertonicity AND smaller(hypotrophy)--shirinked, hypotonic r otherwise, can be realed to abnormal immune response?
You may get an abnormal response to any infection leading to auto-immunity. It depends how well T cell deletion has occurred and regulatory T cells operate. It has not been linked to cell swelling or shrinking.

[Taffer]

As I told, I am interested in understanding, whether such mechanism has some relevance (sepration of infected cells from growing cells, lysis or shirikage of cells) with AIDs, autoimmunity, hemolytic anemia etc.?

I am not interested to discuss efficacy or not.

No, it does not.

[Kumar]

You may get an abnormal response to any infection leading to auto-immunity. It depends how well T cell deletion has occurred and regulatory T cells operate. It has not been linked to cell swelling or shrinking.

Is it difficult for immune cells to phagocyte or handle an enlarged cell? Whether an infected cell as in latent infection can be enlarged/swelled? I think, there is one mechanism when immune cells break cell wall to kill defected cell. Will it not be, if cells are enlarged?

[Capsid]

Is it difficult for immune cells to phagocyte or handle an enlarged cell? Whether an infected cell as in latent infection can be enlarged/swelled? I think, there is one mechanism when immune cells break cell wall to kill defected cell. Will it not be, if cells are enlarged?
You're thinking of cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTL)which can lyse cells. Phagocytosis can still occur. In this case size is not important.

[Kumar]

You're thinking of cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTL)which can lyse cells. Phagocytosis can still occur. In this case size is not important.

Thanks.I think they cause holes in cells. Just try to evaluate, can variations in cellular sizes(enlarged, swelled or shrinked) encourage immune responses? On getting inflammations, swelling is there. That can also cause cellular sizes. Fasting, food averstions, loss of hunge, variations in water intakes/holdings etc. can be natural practices on getting sick.

[Deetee]

Thanks.I think they cause holes in cells.
Perhaps they cause HIV-shaped holes in the host's energy?

Just try to evaluate, can variations in cellular sizes(enlarged, swelled or shrinked) encourage immune responses? On getting inflammations, swelling is there. That can also cause cellular sizes. Fasting, food averstions, loss of hunge, variations in water intakes/holdings etc. can be natural practices on getting sick.
No
The swelling you get with inflammation is due to an influx of phagocytes and capillary leakage causing fluid accumulation in the tissues. It has nothing whaever to do with the size of the cells.

[Kumar]

Perhaps they cause HIV-shaped holes in the host's energy?


No
The swelling you get with inflammation is due to an influx of phagocytes and capillary leakage causing fluid accumulation in the tissues. It has nothing whaever to do with the size of the cells.

Whether some immune cells release some proteins which destroy membrane
integrity, simply these proteins make holes in the membrane?

Again, can swelled/enlarged or shrinked cells do something or a reason to, cellular immunity or body's immunity based, to call or mediate for immune response directly or indirectly?

Whether cellular geometorical changes can happen due to any intracellular infection or changes in tonicity?

[Capsid]

Whether some immune cells release some proteins which destroy membrane
integrity, simply these proteins make holes in the membrane?
Perforins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perforin)

Again, can swelled/enlarged or shrinked cells do something or a reason to, cellular immunity or body's immunity based, to call or mediate for immune response directly or indirectly?

Whether cellular geometorical changes can happen due to any intracellular infection or changes in tonicity?
No.

[Deetee]

Whether cellular geometorical changes can happen due to any intracellular infection or changes in tonicity?
Malaria (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11757330&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus)?

[Kumar]

Perforins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perforin)


No.

How action of perforins is initiated?

[Kumar]

Malaria (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11757330&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus)?

Does such change initiate immune response?

[Capsid]

How action of perforins is initiated?By CTLs recognising class I mediated target (infected) cells.

[Deetee]

Does such change initiate immune response?
No.
The infected red blood cells become less deformable. They stick within the small capillary vessels, causing circulatory stasis and thrombosis (within the lung, brain etc). This is one of the main ways in which malaria causes damage to the host.
Immune mechanisms are not directly involved with this process.

Kumar, the ways in which infections interact with the host and the immune system are too vast for you (or me) to know/comprehend even partially. There are huge tomes of texts on the subject, and millions of articles.

Changing cell size is not a valid putative mechanism in this process, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will make it so. Give it up.

[Deetee]

BTW, Kumar.......

Have you had any joy with this question speaking to the HIV denialists over on google groups (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/misc.health.aids/browse_frm/thread/60123abaf2103ce2/562237250613f409?hl=en#562237250613f409) yet?

I must admit their tactic is one we have not yet tried with you.... Your questions are irrelevant because "HIV does not exist!"

[Kumar]

By CTLs recognising class I mediated target (infected) cells.

I think it is antigen-specific. Can enlarged cells be recognized as odd to immune system in any way?

[Kumar]

Deetee, There are so many variations in current understandings, one has to satisfy himself from various sources (but still land into confusions). I therefore insisit on "absolote and final" or even persistent for more time. How HIV denialists occured?

[Deetee]

How HIV denialists occured?
Manyfold reasons.
In Africa, reluctance to be seen as having some role in the origins of a sexually spead infection, remnants of colonialism, racism etc.
In the West, some are just believers in weird things and like to believe in conspiracies, incriminating the Govt, CIA, drug companies etc.
In individuals who are at risk or who have been tested positive for HIV it is a genuine denial and may be a way to pretend all is well and that they are not/will not get ill, even to the point where when they get ill they blame it on other factors and not the HIV. When the truth is unthinkable, people find ways to deny it.
There is plenty of information on the web about this. eg:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/opinion/04moore.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[Capsid]

I think it is antigen-specific. Can enlarged cells be recognized as odd to immune system in any way?
Yes it is antigen specific. Enlarged cells are not different from normal cells to the immune system, unless they are infected with a virus, but then the immune system recognises the virus not the cell.

[Kumar]

In summary, increased erythrocyte aggregation and decreased erythrocyte deformability are features of HIV disease. These changes appear to be unrelated to an individual’s level of immunodeficiency. Thus, they are not expected to improve with immune reconstitution. In fact, some antiretroviral agents may make these changes worse, by causing macrocytosis. Increased erythrocyte aggregation and decreased erythrocyte deformability can be expected to alter blood flow, eventually placing patients at risk for the sequelae of retinal microvascular disease
http://www.iovs.org/cgi/content/full/47/9/3927#T2

Detee thanks for link. Still we can try more to find out more basis of their deniels. One can be "miasma vs. Germ theory", which may call for either substancial infective agents to infect or body's sufficient disorders/immuno-defficiency unabling spread of disease. Other can be some different thought of possibilities imperfect treatments. Look at above quote, bolded letter can hint possible changes in blood consistencies, hypotonicity etc. I think ESR and Hct are affected by these drugs. ??

[Kumar]

Yes it is antigen specific. Enlarged cells are not different from normal cells to the immune system, unless they are infected with a virus, but then the immune system recognises the virus not the cell.

It looks, understanding of water balance in body is just limited to edema but overlooked, if as a result of changes in intracellular or extracellular tonicity.

Simply, can tonicity of infected cells change on/after getting any infection?

[Capsid]

It looks, understanding of water balance in body is just limited to edema but overlooked, if as a result of changes in intracellular or extracellular tonicity.

Simply, can tonicity of infected cells change on/after getting any infection?
Haven't we answered this already? If a cell lyses or forms syncitia as a result of infection then I suppose its tonicity could alter, but I would not think by very much.

[Kumar]

Haven't we answered this already? If a cell lyses or forms syncitia as a result of infection then I suppose its tonicity could alter, but I would not think by very much.

Ok. Whether some changes take place in cell membrane/wall on getting it infected?

[Capsid]

Ok. Whether some changes take place in cell membrane/wall on getting it infected?
Yes, we have answered that too. Infection causes upregulation of many cell surface proteins.

[Deetee]

Look at above quote, bolded letter can hint possible changes in blood consistencies, hypotonicity etc. I think ESR and Hct are affected by these drugs. ??

The drugs (azt or zidovudine in particular) cause enlarged red cells because they interfere with the process of red cell formation in the bone marrow. This is a side effect of the drug and is unrelated to its effect on HIV itself. The cells that are produced and make their way into the circulation are immature, and therefore larger than normal.
There may be an associated anaemia (low hemoglobin/HCT) which could raise the ESR slightly. The internal constitution of the red cells is not to my knowledge affected in terms of tonicity/pressures etc.

[Kumar]

Yes, we have answered that too. Infection causes upregulation of many cell surface proteins.

Thanks. What about this;

Membrane fluidity
In biology, the membrane fluidity refers to the viscosity of the lipid bilayer of a cell membrane. The membrane phospholipids incorporate fatty acids of varying length and saturation. Shorter-chain fatty acids, and ones with greater unsaturation, are less stiff, less viscous and have lower melting points. Changes in membrane-dependent functions, such as phagocytosis and cell signalling, are hypothesized to depend upon the cell-membrane fluidity. This hypothesis lost favor, but has re-emerged recently with the discovery of discrete lipid domains, dubbed 'lipid rafts' in cellular membranes, (Fritsche, 2006). The hypothesis is still controversial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_fluidity

[Kumar]

The drugs (azt or zidovudine in particular) cause enlarged red cells because they interfere with the process of red cell formation in the bone marrow. This is a side effect of the drug and is unrelated to its effect on HIV itself. The cells that are produced and make their way into the circulation are immature, and therefore larger than normal.
There may be an associated anaemia (low hemoglobin/HCT) which could raise the ESR slightly. The internal constitution of the red cells is not to my knowledge affected in terms of tonicity/pressures etc.

Thanks.

Can't WBCs or immune cells be enlarged or shriked as macro/micro cytosis?

[Deetee]

Thanks.

Can't WBCs or immune cells be enlarged or shriked as macro/micro cytosis?RBC size and shape is usually very consistent in the absence of specific disease (eg spherocytosis, iron deficiency anemia etc).
However variation in shape and size of white blood cells (there are many subtypes) is natural and part of their normal function, and not specific for a disease process.

[Kumar]

RBC size and shape is usually very consistent in the absence of specific disease (eg spherocytosis, iron deficiency anemia etc).
However variation in shape and size of white blood cells (there are many subtypes) is natural and part of their normal function, and not specific for a disease process.

Pls tell me more about possible variations in shape & size of WBCs. Can they be swelled or shrinked due to changes into intra or extracelllar tonicity?

[Deetee]

Pls tell me more about possible variations in shape & size of WBCs. Can they be swelled or shrinked due to changes into intra or extracelllar tonicity?

Any cell can be made to swell or shrink if it is bathed in a physiologically hypotonic or hypertonic solution. Big deal.

Some white blood cells change shape as I explained before - see these EMs of a phagocyte at work (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/biology/bio4fv/page/phago.htm). It makes an amoeba look like a rock in comparison.

[Taffer]

Thanks. What about this;

What about it?

[Kumar]

Any cell can be made to swell or shrink if it is bathed in a physiologically hypotonic or hypertonic solution. Big deal.

Some white blood cells change shape as I explained before - see these EMs of a phagocyte at work (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/biology/bio4fv/page/phago.htm). It makes an amoeba look like a rock in comparison.

Sorry but better can hypertonic or hypotonic to it. Swollen cells are relevant to brusting whereas shrinked to cell suicide. Can such swelled or shrinked cells signals to immune system that they are somewhat odd?

That change in WBCs looks to be normal mechanism so may not be relevant to these discussions.

[Kumar]

What about it?

If you will read full quote in OP(following link), membrane fludity can be relevant.

http://www.rifeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7683#post7683

[Kumar]

In summary, increased erythrocyte aggregation and decreased erythrocyte deformability are features of HIV disease. These changes appear to be unrelated to an individual’s level of immunodeficiency. Thus, they are not expected to improve with immune reconstitution. In fact, some antiretroviral agents may make these changes worse, by causing macrocytosis. Increased erythrocyte aggregation and decreased erythrocyte deformability can be expected to alter blood flow, eventually placing patients at risk for the sequelae of retinal microvascular disease
http://www.iovs.org/cgi/content/full/47/9/3927#T2

Again, whether above quote indicate possible cells swelling on getting HIV?

"increased erythrocyte aggregation and decreased erythrocyte deformability are features of HIV disease"

Can you tell me how above are features of HIV disease?

[Capsid]

Sorry but better can hypertonic or hypotonic to it. Swollen cells are relevant to brusting whereas shrinked to cell suicide. Can such swelled or shrinked cells signals to immune system that they are somewhat odd?

That change in WBCs looks to be normal mechanism so may not be relevant to these discussions.
For the immune system to react there needs to be a co-stimulation (danger) signal. This does not occur when cells shrink and swell.

[Deetee]

Rife machines as we know them today do not cure disease including cancer. What they do, however, is to break up the structures of the disease pathogens by taking advantage of the common characteristic of viruses, bacteria and fungi in that the cell walls (ie., membranes) become crystallized rather than remaining pliable. Resonant frequencies mechanically synchronize with the triangular shapes specific to each disease pathogen and sets up a standing wave within the mass of the structure which causes an expansion of the intracellular fluids which subsequently rupture the protective coating that holds the structure together.http://www.rifeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7683#post7683


Kumar. This is pure junk. It is a ridiculous hypothesis which does not even have a plausible mechanism. It has never been shown to exist, let alone work in curing disaeses. It is pseudoscience.
I know you are desperately looking for any information that can validate this mechanism, but it is a lost cause.
HIV does not infect red blood cells. There are no triangular crystals of HIV embedded in the red cell membrane which resonate.
The mechanisms by which HIV infection leads to changes in RBCs are indirect. The effects of HIV on the hemopoetic system. (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/420904_4)

[Kumar]

Have they mentioned RBCs?

Anyway, when we are infected by any virus, is there any mechanism which increases or decreases water in system? Somewhat alike first line defecnce.

[Kumar]

For the immune system to react there needs to be a co-stimulation (danger) signal. This does not occur when cells shrink and swell.

Heavy sweating is possible on some infection eg. night sweats. I don't know about compensatory water intake. Is there any mechanism in body which changes water balance in body on any infection? Somewhat, first line defecne.

[Deetee]

Have they mentioned RBCs?

Anyway, when we are infected by any virus, is there any mechanism which increases or decreases water in system? Somewhat alike first line defecnce.

Have who mentioned RBCs? My citation, or your Rife junk?

I don't know of any infections to which the body responds as a line of defence by causing its cells to swell, or by changing the fluid balance. There would not seem to be much benefit for the host to do this really.

Toads and puffer fish sometimes swell when attacked.;)

[Zep]

Heavy sweating is possible on some infection eg. night sweats. I don't know about compensatory water intake. Is there any mechanism in body which changes water balance in body on any infection? Somewhat, first line defecne.Infections cause the body's heat control mechanisms to go wrong. That is why you get the chills and sweats. It is nothing to do with "compensatory water intake" or swelling cells. If the control is lost, the body may overheat badly (hyperthermia) and start to cause serious damage or even death.

Because you lose water when you sweat, for whatever reason - infection, or exercise, or just because the weather is hot - your body needs to intake water to make the balance back up. So you drink, and water is absorbed through the gut. Simple.

[Capsid]

Heavy sweating is possible on some infection eg. night sweats. I don't know about compensatory water intake. Is there any mechanism in body which changes water balance in body on any infection? Somewhat, first line defecne.
We sweat because we are running a fever and the body is trying to maintain the normal temperature. The fever is caused by chemokines which have anti-viral effects as well as stimulate the immune responses. Sweating is merely a consequence of the infection.

ETA: Zep beat me to it.

[Kumar]

Have who mentioned RBCs? My citation, or your Rife junk?

I don't know of any infections to which the body responds as a line of defence by causing its cells to swell, or by changing the fluid balance. There would not seem to be much benefit for the host to do this really.

Toads and puffer fish sometimes swell when attacked.;)

You have mentioned;

"HIV does not infect red blood cells. There are no triangular crystals of HIV embedded in the red cell membrane which resonate.
The mechanisms by which HIV infection leads to changes in RBCs are indirect."

Whereas quoted Rife..do not mention impact on RBCs.

Any change in ESR, osmolarity and Hct on any infection?

[Kumar]

Infections cause the body's heat control mechanisms to go wrong. That is why you get the chills and sweats. It is nothing to do with "compensatory water intake" or swelling cells. If the control is lost, the body may overheat badly (hyperthermia) and start to cause serious damage or even death.

Because you lose water when you sweat, for whatever reason - infection, or exercise, or just because the weather is hot - your body needs to intake water to make the balance back up. So you drink, and water is absorbed through the gut. Simple.

What can be the survival benefit by sweating on any infection/fever?

[Kumar]

We sweat because we are running a fever and the body is trying to maintain the normal temperature. The fever is caused by chemokines which have anti-viral effects as well as stimulate the immune responses. Sweating is merely a consequence of the infection.

ETA: Zep beat me to it.

Can't such sweating has some survival benefit? Somewhat creating hypertonicity and taking away water of deseased cells?

[Capsid]

Can't such sweating has some survival benefit?
Yes, sweating keeps the body within the normal range
Somewhat creating hypertonicity and taking away water of deseased cells?
NO

[Kumar]

Yes, sweating keeps the body within the normal range

NO

Can fasting or not drinking water have some survival net benefit?

[Deetee]

You have mentioned;

"HIV does not infect red blood cells. There are no triangular crystals of HIV embedded in the red cell membrane which resonate.
The mechanisms by which HIV infection leads to changes in RBCs are indirect."

Whereas quoted Rife..do not mention impact on RBCs.

Any change in ESR, osmolarity and Hct on any infection?

You are the one quoting us Rife therapy to treat infections.
He did not mention RBC specifically, but you did - You are the one who is focussing on RBC changes in HIV infection, presumably trying to link the 2 things together.
I am pointing out your misunderstandings about HIV and what happens with RBCs in HIV infection.

[Professor Yaffle]

Can fasting or not drinking water have some survival net benefit?

I think fasting can be helpful sometimes with diarrhoea, as eating food can prolong it. But I know of no situation where abstaining from water would be helpful.

[Capsid]

Can fasting or not drinking water have some survival net benefit?
LOL! I wouldn't think so would you?

[Kumar]

LOL! I wouldn't think so would you?

Sorry, i meant, can fasting or drinking less water for some time(sub fatal level) have some survival benefit?

[Kumar]

You are the one quoting us Rife therapy to treat infections.
He did not mention RBC specifically, but you did - You are the one who is focussing on RBC changes in HIV infection, presumably trying to link the 2 things together.
I am pointing out your misunderstandings about HIV and what happens with RBCs in HIV infection.

I feel, I mentioned WBCs, but just compared RBCs as both can be exposed at a time. HIV infect immune cells.

[Kumar]

I think fasting can be helpful sometimes with diarrhoea, as eating food can prolong it. But I know of no situation where abstaining from water would be helpful.

Just imagine, if patient with HIV, cancer or other serious somewhat uncurable disease, if kept hungry and/or without water upto just before fatal level, whether disease causing agents will die first or patient? Unaided or opposed by body immune response, should odd agents not die first?

[Professor Yaffle]

What makes you think that cancer cells (for example) will die before the patient does in these circumstances?

[Capsid]

Just imagine, if patient with HIV, cancer or other serious somewhat uncurable disease, if kept hungry and/or without water upto just before fatal level, whether disease causing agents will die first or patient? Unaided or opposed by body immune response, should odd agents not die first?
Yet another resounding NO.

[Capsid]

I feel, I mentioned WBCs, but just compared RBCs as both can be exposed at a time. HIV infect immune cells.
HIV does not infect RBCs. If that is what you are implying.

[Giggywig]

Just imagine, if patient with HIV, cancer or other serious somewhat uncurable disease, if kept hungry and/or without water upto just before fatal level, whether disease causing agents will die first or patient? Unaided or opposed by body immune response, should odd agents not die first?
So your plan is to torture people who are about to die? That's nice of you.

[Deetee]

I think he plans to starve and deprive patients of fluid until the cells containing the virus will shrink so much that they will die, destroying the infection.
Of course, there is no way to just starve the infected cells, so all the other cells in the body will shrink and die also.
As a cure for infection it takes some beating. Massive whole body irradiation springs to mind as a possible alternative.
Perhaps we can set up a randomised controlled trial comparing the 2?

[Kumar]

I think he plans to starve and deprive patients of fluid until the cells containing the virus will shrink so much that they will die, destroying the infection.
Of course, there is no way to just starve the infected cells, so all the other cells in the body will shrink and die also.
As a cure for infection it takes some beating. Massive whole body irradiation springs to mind as a possible alternative.
Perhaps we can set up a randomised controlled trial comparing the 2?

Fasting & aversions to eat or dring water for some time is naturally available and practiced behaviour to other species. Many time they get cured. We have seen our pet dogs. It is very difficult to feed then forcefully. But We??

So it can be thought. Can't there be any level of such practices where we survive but disease causing agent die?

[Kumar]

So your plan is to torture people who are about to die? That's nice of you.

If a patient gets painful treatment, it is not torture. Fastings and aversions for some time are naturally practiced healing mechanism for other species. We??

[Professor Yaffle]

Where do you get the idea that animals starve/dehydrate themselves to rid themselves of disease?

[Taffer]

If you will read full quote in OP(following link), membrane fludity can be relevant.

http://www.rifeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7683#post7683

No.

Especially because your quote is rubbish.

[Taffer]

Just imagine, if patient with HIV, cancer or other serious somewhat uncurable disease, if kept hungry and/or without water upto just before fatal level, whether disease causing agents will die first or patient? Unaided or opposed by body immune response, should odd agents not die first?

No, kumar.

[fagin]

If a patient gets painful treatment, it is not torture. Fastings and aversions for some time are naturally practiced healing mechanism for other species. We??

As a doctor once said when I asked him for a cure for flu - a shotgun.

[Kumar]

No, kumar.

Many basic understandings look to be remained "miss, weaknesses or vested interested based", so overlooked. Or kept by God/nature to balance.

[Kumar]

Where do you get the idea that animals starve/dehydrate themselves to rid themselves of disease?

Look to be by seeing pet dogs, birds etc. Many spritual practices suggest fasting or restricted eatings, without or with lesser water intake.

Fasting is primarily the act of willingly abstaining from some or all food, drink, or both, for a period of time. Concerning that from which one fasts, and the period of fasting, a fast may be total or partial. It may be observed unbroken for many uninterrupted days, or be observed only for certain periods during the day, as is the Muslim practice during the holy month of Ramadan. Depending on the tradition, fasting practices may preclude sexual activity as well as food, in addition to refraining from eating certain types or groups of foods; for example, one might refrain from eating meat. Medical fasting can be a way to promote detoxification.

Fasting for religious and spiritual reasons has been a part of human custom since pre-history. It is mentioned in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testament, the Qur'an, the Mahabharata, and the Upanishads. Fasting is also practiced in many other religious traditions and spiritual practices.



A longer fast for health reasons typically lasts a week or longer and includes some food intake, such as fruit or vegetable juices, as part of a detox diet.

Some doctors believe that pure water fasting can not only detoxify cells and rejuvenate organs, but can relieve [2] such diseases and conditions as cardiovascular disease, rheumatoid arthritis, asthma, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, colitis, psoriasis, lupus and some other autoimmune disorders when combined with a healthy diet. They believe that "Fasting is Nature's Restorer."[3]

Recent studies on mice show that fasting every other day while eating double the normal amount of food on non-fasting days led to improved insulin and blood sugar control, neuronal resistance to injury, and health indicators superior to mice on 40% calorie restricted diets.[4][5] Alternate day calorie restriction may prolong lifespan[6] and attenuates diseases associated with inflammation, oxidative stress and aging[7].

People who feel they are near the end of their life sometimes consciously refuse food or water. The term in the medical literature is patient refusal of nutrition and hydration. Contrary to popular impressions, published studies[8] indicate that "within the context of adequate palliative care, the refusal of food and fluids does not contribute to suffering among the terminally ill", and might actually contribute to a comfortable passage from life: "At least for some persons, starvation does correlate with reported euphoria."

In natural medicine, fasting is seen as a way of cleansing the body of toxins, dead or diseased tissues, and giving the gastro-intestinal system a rest. Such fasts are either water-only, or consist of fruit and vegetable juices. Some results have been achieved while including fasting in the treatment of some kinds of cancer,[9] autoimmune diseases,[10]and allergies.[11]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting


Many ideas are related to fasting. We should try to evaluate it in terms of tonicity changes in various compartments and their impacts.

[robinson]

Interesting thought. Predatory animals that are injured or sick can't hunt as well, leading to reduced food intake, or outright fasting. Evolution might select for creatures that heal quickly, even when deprived of food. Might be true for all creatures great and small.

Experiments with reduced calorie diets show extended life spans for almost every animal tested. Over feeding is known to lead to disease and early death.

[Kumar]

Interesting thought. Predatory animals that are injured or sick can't hunt as well, leading to reduced food intake, or outright fasting. Evolution might select for creatures that heal quickly, even when deprived of food. Might be true for all creatures great and small.

Experiments with reduced calorie diets show extended life spans for almost every animal tested. Over feeding is known to lead to disease and early death.

"excess of everything is said to be bad", probably fasting is meant to treat it, if there.

[robinson]

I haven't read this entire thread. Care to explain how fasting came into the discussion?

[robinson]

No wait. Forget I asked. Ignore the question.

Just explain, if possible, what this thread is about, if that is possible.

[Kumar]

No wait. Forget I asked. Ignore the question.

Just explain, if possible, what this thread is about, if that is possible.

To evaluate intacellular/latent/HIV infection relations with intra/extra cullular fluid imbalance or cell size changes. It can be interested to read useful posts in this topic to update and discuss furthur.

[fagin]

No wait. Forget I asked. Ignore the question.

Just explain, if possible, what this thread is about, if that is possible.

Anyone who can do that can also probably explain the meaning of life and whether Paris Hilton is a bigger threat to civilisation than George Bush.

[Capsid]

Interesting thought. Predatory animals that are injured or sick can't hunt as well, leading to reduced food intake, or outright fasting. Evolution might select for creatures that heal quickly, even when deprived of food. Might be true for all creatures great and small.

Experiments with reduced calorie diets show extended life spans for almost every animal tested. Over feeding is known to lead to disease and early death.
Injured animals are more likely to be predated upon though since they can't run away so easily and make an easy kill.

[Kumar]

Can you tell me, if patients with HIV/AIDs experiance unintentional weight gain or loss, diarrhea, constipation, increased/decreased urine out put, increased/decreased sweating?

Unexplained chronic diarrhea in HIV infection is due to many possible causes, including common bacterial (Salmonella, Shigella, Listeria, Campylobacter, or Escherichia coli) and parasitic infections; and uncommon opportunistic infections such as cryptosporidiosis, microsporidiosis, Mycobacterium avium complex (MAC) and cytomegalovirus (CMV) colitis. In some cases, diarrhea may be a side effect of several drugs used to treat HIV, or it may simply accompany HIV infection, particularly during primary HIV infection. It may also be a side effect of antibiotics used to treat bacterial causes of diarrhea (common for Clostridium difficile). In the later stages of HIV infection, diarrhea is thought to be a reflection of changes in the way the intestinal tract absorbs nutrients, and may be an important component of HIV-related wasting.[35] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS

Not sure, whether above happens as a direction towards natural treatment or towards disease progression.

[fagin]

Can you tell me, if patients with HIV/AIDs experiance unintentional weight gain or loss, diarrhea, constipation, increased/decreased urine out put, increased/decreased sweating?



Not sure, whether above happens as a direction towards natural treatment or towards disease progression.

I understood that with AIDS, it is the secondary infections that are the immediate problem so would assume that symtams would depend on the infection(s).
I have not heard of unintentional weight gain though.

[Deetee]

Can you tell me, if patients with HIV/AIDs experiance unintentional weight gain or loss, diarrhea, constipation, increased/decreased urine out put, increased/decreased sweating?

It might help if we understood better why you wish to know these things

[Professor Yaffle]

Just from doing a quick google (so this is not at all rigorous), it looks like short term fasting does boost the immune system temporarily in much the same way that other sources of short term stress do. Also excess carbohydrates seem to reduce the ability of neutrophils to fight off infection. Having said that severe malnutrition/starvation seems to severely depress the immune system. Anyone who actually knows the literature in the area, feel free to correct me as I only read a few titbits I came across when googling.

[Kumar]

It might help if we understood better why you wish to know these things

Just to relate & gain knowledge. Nothing else as yet (touch wood). :)

[robinson]

Just from doing a quick google (so this is not at all rigorous), it looks like short term fasting does boost the immune system temporarily in much the same way that other sources of short term stress do.

Interesting find. Any links to this? Logic dictates that evolution would favor organisms that can survive injury or disease without eating, or eating as normal. Obviously HIV infection, leading to opportunistic pathogens and infections, is an unusual situation.

Most infections don't take 3 to 30+ years to make you sick.

[Professor Yaffle]

I think this was one of the links I found:


http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/5/565?ck=nck

And this one on the relationship of carbohydrates to the immune system. The site itself doesn't necessarily fill me with trust, but it is quoting real research on this page - even if they might tend to misapplying some of the research they quote?. Thats why I said it was a quick google and I was open to being corrected.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/leukocytic_index.html

[robinson]

Thanks. Rather than go off topic, want to start an immune system discussion? I find it fascinating, and while doing unrelated research found some really amazing new stuff about immune response and stuff.

I did a quick search and can find no topics here about the immune system. Isn't that strange?

[Capsid]

I think this was one of the links I found:


http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/5/565?ck=nck

That link is for the editorial of the paper. The study appears to show an increase in neutrophils upon fasting. Although, there is no functional test to determine if this does anything. I'd prefer to see a study which showed changes in infection rates with or without fasting.

[Capsid]

Thanks. Rather than go off topic, want to start an immune system discussion? I find it fascinating, and while doing unrelated research found some really amazing new stuff about immune response and stuff.

I did a quick search and can find no topics here about the immune system. Isn't that strange?
I'd be interested in what you think is new stuff. Immunology research is my job.

[Kumar]

Consequences
Based on these studies, any person who eats largely carbohydrate-based meals, particularly those containing sugars, and snacks with small carbohydrate-based meals spread throughout the day -- as the latest advice suggests we should -- could lose up to half their immunity to disease for much of the waking day.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/leukocytic_index.html

Glucose & salt in snacks can be water atrracting.

[Deetee]

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/leukocytic_index.html

However, I am pleased to read that among the many conditions that can be helped by a low carb diet is "death". I will let my children know, for there will come a time when I will need this.

[flume]

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/leukocytic_index.html

However, I am pleased to read that among the many conditions that can be helped by a low carb diet is "death". I will let my children know, for there will come a time when I will need this.

!!!

too funny.
(and it is also something I think about for the future)