Stepmother believes in Sylvia! $700 is on the line!

[Lord Kenneth]

I knew my stepmother was a bit of a wacko on this area but wow she pulled the whole dogmatic woo-woo stuff out-- "Montel and Larry King keep on having her on", "she solved many police cases", and yadda yadda.

I need information fast. She wants a phone reading with Sylvia Browne, and that money can be spent on much better things.

...

I hated con artists before I found this out, but when it hits close to home it become personal.

[Iamme]

Lord Kenneth---IMO it comes down to what your mother is worth, financially. If she has the means to pay, without causing a major setback in her life, I suppose she has this right, to her own form of entertainment, as another person would have in taking $700 with them to the casino.

Before I say any more...I would like to know if, to get read, you have to pay in advance.

[Clancie]

LK,

Somewhere online I read a post by someone who'd had a disasterous reading with Sylvia. It sounded quite convincing. I'll try to find it for you.

Also...has your stepmother ever looked at Sylvia's books? Some of them are really far out (like Sylvia's "Life on the Other Side")

And hopefully someone will have the information about her "solving the police case" handy. That has been totally refuted.

[Lord Kenneth]

This is not gambling. This is ripping people off completely.

[Lord Kenneth]

Even Clancie doesn't believe Sylvia. That surely says something....

[Clancie]

Posted by Lord Kenneth

Even Clancie doesn't believe Sylvia. That surely says something....
:rolleyes:

A tip, Kenneth. I would try to sway your stepmother by using believers/fence sitters criticisms, not diehard skeptics. (See the Janet McDonald article linked below for an "open minded yet critical" look at SB--and the "dissatisfied believer" letter I've copied for you, for examples of what I mean).

Here's the article I was thinking of by Janet McDonald, describing her actual reading with Sylvia. It's very good

Sylvia Browne Reading (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/01/08/psychic/index.html)

Here's another, brief account of a negative experience being read by Sylvia
More Sylvia (http://www.salon.com/mwt/letters/2003/01/10/psychics/)

I am so sorry to hear about Ms. McDonald's wasted dollars which were "contributed" to the Sylvia Browne Fund. I too blew a wad on a reading from Ms. Browne, although when I did, her price for a phone reading was $350 (still a very pricey psychic reading, and I've had several readings by other psychics).

I had the exact same experience with Ms. Browne as Ms. McDonald. I'd read her first book and really believed what she was saying. I too consider myself an intelligent young woman.
I did, and still very much do, believe that there are some people with psychic gifts; however, I do not believe Ms. Browne is one of them.

Actually, I believe everyone has the potential, but some of us are able to tap into it. I do not believe Ms. Browne knows how to, and I think the fact that she keeps taking (exorbitant) sums of money from people while giving them terrible results is abhorrent.

I do not believe that psychics are 100 percent accurate, or that even the best of them is always correct, but I had the EXACT same experience as Ms. McDonald.

Sylvia Browne started my reading by telling me to take a certain vitamin for a condition I did not have, but I thought, "OK, maybe it's something I should watch out for," so I listened eagerly. Well, 10 years later, I never encountered this problem, nor did I take the vitamin.

After the rest of the terrible reading, NONE of any of what she said was remotely applicable to me. I thought, "I'm not taking any vitamin. If she was totally off base about everything else, I'm not listening to her regarding my health."

I see Sylvia Browne on shows these days, promoting her books. I guess her popularity is due to snowballing hype. I can't imagine a lot of people paying her prices for a reading, so I think people tune into her on these programs because they've previously heard her name from a past program she was on.

It's really a shame; Sylvia Browne gives truly talented psychics a bad name. Your author shouldn't feel bad though, I think a lot of people have been "taken" by Ms. Browne. My own mother arranged for a phone reading the same time I did, and got her 100 percent inaccurate reading a week after I did.

Another thought. Is your stepmother religious? If so, maybe she would be turned off by Sylvia's (tax deductible) "church", Novus Spiritus, or some of her assertions about the afterlife (like we're all 30 years old there).

What kinds of things do you think would sway her?

[Foodbunny]

Who is it that she wants to contact? You could try telling her that Dead Relative/Friend might be pretty ticked off if she spent that much money frivolously.

[Lord Kenneth]

Right now I am printing off information from websites that is more indepth than what could be used in a verbal debate.

My dad told me I'm wasting paper... can you guess what he meant by that? :D

[Lord Kenneth]

I need a web site dealing with Sylvia's claims that she worked with the police. I don't watch Montel, so...

[TLN]

Originally posted by Foodbunny
Who is it that she wants to contact? You could try telling her that Dead Relative/Friend might be pretty ticked off if she spent that much money frivolously.

You know, it's funny, but how come we never hear this stuff?

How come mediums don't ever say, "Phil? Yeah, he's coming through loud and clear, but he's still pissed at you. I mean, how could you sleep with your best friend's wife? What's wrong with you man?"

[Ceinwyn]

Wait a minute.

You have a stepmom too? And you want to set her straight as well?

I am so glad I'm not in your immediate family.

[Pyrrho]

Let your stepmother waste her money. Maybe she'll realize she's been conned, and the loss of $700 will make the lesson unforgettable.

[CFLarsen]

Plenty on SkepticReport... :)

Past Li(v)es (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/browneerrors.htm)

11 Techniques to Talk to the Dead, Part III (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/sblkl.htm)

Cell Memory (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/cellmemory.htm)

Dodge Ball Deluxe - The Sylvia Browne Chronology (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/dodgeball.htm)

Sylvia Browne: Failed Prophet in 1998 (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/sylviapredictions98.htm)

Sylvia Browne: Predictions for 2000-2100 (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/sylvia2100.htm)

Sylvia Browne: Fast-Food Psychic (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/sylviabrowne.htm)

The Cost of Verifying Past Lives (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/browneresearch.htm)

[wayrad]

This isn't the parrot $700, is it?

[Ed]

K,

What you might try is to sit her down to watch someone that she thinks is a fake or is neutral to like JE or JVP. Sit with her and give a running commentary on what is happening. You might try a little cold reading yourself (if you have not tried it please do, it is fairly easy). Anyhoo, I suspect that she will begin snorting at these particular phonies after a while (may more than one session is called for). THEN sit with her thru a Sylvia thing. She should see her for what she is, if not she is a true believer and you will have to kill her.

[Clancie]

Posted by Lord Kenneth

My dad told me I'm wasting paper... can you guess what he meant by that?
Yes. He means that you haven't made the effort to understand her reasons for wanting the reading....and therefore all of your printouts are just going to be seen as confrontational and totally ineffectual.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by TLN
You know, it's funny, but how come we never hear this stuff?

How come mediums don't ever say, "Phil? Yeah, he's coming through loud and clear, but he's still pissed at you. I mean, how could you sleep with your best friend's wife? What's wrong with you man?"
We'll get that when Sylvia and friends lose their celebrity status and end up on Jerry Springer.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Clancie

Yes. He means that you haven't made the effort to understand her reasons for wanting the reading....and therefore all of your printouts are just going to be seen as confrontational and totally ineffectual. [/B]

Good point!! I have started a new thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26532) to discuss just that.

[Ladewig]

As long as we are brainstorming, why not tell her one of your friends is psychic and have the stepmom pay your friend the $700. Between fed information and some cold reading, you and your accomplice should be able to make Sylvia look like an amateur.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
"Montel and Larry King keep on having her on"
Thats right, Montel and Larry King keep having Sylvia on the show. Defiant PROOF she is real psychic... no, just wishful thinking. I'm sure having Denise Richards on the show would generate just as high rating (possibly higher, seeing as how it is Denise Richards).

"she solved many police cases"
Thats right, Sylvia solved the cases, police interaction was minimal. I bet the police officers dont appreciate that.

[Iamme]

Lord Kenneth---After I adressed your post, I had already figured I'd get a response that it isn't like gambling. I agree in a way, but not in another way. In gambling, you MAY win. But with Sylvia Browne, you are always going to lose, you presume...right?

That is the crux. It IS like gambling. How can you PROVE that Sylvia is not real. Anytime someone says something like, "I FEEEEEL....(yadda, yadda)"...who is to SAY that that person ISN'T feeling something...whether it is spiritual energy, or, say in the physical realm, whiplash in a car crash, when doctors can't find anything wrong?

In the last case, many-a -people have won injury lawsuits on what they feel...not on physical evidence!

Similarly, when mediums like Sylvia tell us what they feel...well...who is to say?!

I think what an astute person needs to do is to research the 'character' of the person making the claim. If you find that these people are habitual liars, in other parts of their life...then I'd say yuou'd be on to something. This might not PROOOOVE it conclusively...but it would prove things to ME.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Iamme
Lord Kenneth---After I adressed your post, I had already figured I'd get a response that it isn't like gambling. I agree in a way, but not in another way. In gambling, you MAY win. But with Sylvia Browne, you are always going to lose, you presume...right?

That is the crux. It IS like gambling. How can you PROVE that Sylvia is not real. Anytime someone says something like, "I FEEEEEL....(yadda, yadda)"...who is to SAY that that person ISN'T feeling something...whether it is spiritual energy, or, say in the physical realm, whiplash in a car crash, when doctors can't find anything wrong?

In the last case, many-a -people have won injury lawsuits on what they feel...not on physical evidence!

Similarly, when mediums like Sylvia tell us what they feel...well...who is to say?!

I think what an astute person needs to do is to research the 'character' of the person making the claim. If you find that these people are habitual liars, in other parts of their life...then I'd say yuou'd be on to something. This might not PROOOOVE it conclusively...but it would prove things to ME.

I think it is fair to judge that Sylvia is a complete fake. Don't start arguing solipsism again-- if Sylvia wants to be believed she should allow herself to be tested scientifically.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Let your stepmother waste her money. Maybe she'll realize she's been conned, and the loss of $700 will make the lesson unforgettable.

Do you really want to line Sylvia's pockets with ANOTHER 700 dollars?

Please. This is important. $700 is not lose change. I could put that money to better use myself!

Again, I need information on the claims by her (and policemen, apparently) that she worked with the police.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
This is not gambling. This is ripping people off completely.

I'm pretty relaxed about the whole thing.

Ultimately it is up to the person who believes to understand to pros and cons of believing in what Sylvia claims that she can do.

If they, out of their own choosing, wish to spend money on Sylvia's products, then OK, that is their choice.

I highly doubt they need a skeptical savior-type wannabe to warn them of the dangers of belief. These people are smart enough to make the choice themselves.

[CFLarsen]

T'ai Chi,

Your post has to qualify as one of the most stupid and/or callous posts ever.

Would you like some Kool-Aid?

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
T'ai Chi,

Your post has to qualify as one of the most stupid and/or callous posts ever.

Would you like some Kool-Aid?

T'ai Chi is Whodini, or so I've heard. Does that explain something?

:wink:

[Julia]

I recall that Randi has mentioned in some of his commentaries certain situations where Sylvia has been on Montel, told someone that a loved one was alive, only to have the person found dead and to have it confirmed that they would have been at the time Sylvia gave them the cruel news. You may want to do a search. I believe one of them has been reported in just the past couple of months.

This became personal for me a few years ago. A close friend was in shock after her young husband was killed in a tragic accident. She gave Sylvia $750. for an in-person reading. Included in the price was an audio tape of the reading.

I couldn't believe what I was listening to. Not only did she fail to get one fact correct (she stated he died of a brain anuerism), but peppered the session with vague and generic statements about "He loved you very much", and "He is standing next to you now."

I would really like to see this woman stopped.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Iamme
How can you PROVE that Sylvia is not real.
Arguement from ignorance.

Anytime someone says something like, "I FEEEEEL....(yadda, yadda)"...who is to SAY that that person ISN'T feeling something...whether it is spiritual energy, or, say in the physical realm, whiplash in a car crash, when doctors can't find anything wrong?
People can feel pain, put someone in a head-o-scan-o machine whatsit, we can see the part of the brain associated with pain and sense of touch is active (I dont know the medical term for that particular part of the brain).

And no, they are not feeling "spiritual energy". If they are, they only think they are. There is not a single factoid known to science to suggest spiritual energy exists, that is major blow to its credibility. Spiritual energy cannot exist, it would violate the laws of science, that puts a damper on its credibility once again. Psychics are conmen, they've been known to make up anything to make people believe in them, its no surprise they'll speak of spiritual energy. I think it is reasonable to assume spiritual energy does not exist, its merely wishful thinking.

In the last case, many-a -people have won injury lawsuits on what they feel...not on physical evidence!
I'm not sure if finding casual "similarities" between injury lawsuits and spiritual energy is good reasoning.

Similarly, when mediums like Sylvia tell us what they feel...well...who is to say?!
Another arguement from ignorance. And I believe she is a very deliberate conman, and she should be sued for provideing any "services" that she does.

I think what an astute person needs to do is to research the 'character' of the person making the claim.
Psychology? Well, my sister-in-law has more than her fair share of knowledge about psychology and psychiatry (and she's English teacher... she has lots of talents), we should get her to analyze all these people. :rolleyes:

If you find that these people are habitual liars, in other parts of their life...then I'd say yuou'd be on to something. This might not PROOOOVE it conclusively...but it would prove things to ME.
I'm not sure what you are getting at, but I think you are being presumptuous in assuming we need to prove psychics as liars before we know for certain they are conmen.

[Iamme]

Gee, Yahweh? I feel like an idiot now, for posting what I did. Hmmm. You have her all figured out for sure, I guess. I guess then that that means you could run to a tabloid and present a very logical case againstr her, and then cash in on a share of the profits, for helping the tabloid by showing them in a very scientific appropach, what a fraud she is.

The trouble is with trying to 'nail' people llike Sylvia, is that they are as slippery as a snake. When they say they feel this, or feel that...it can apply to the past, present or future. Couple THAT with the fact that sometimes they are RIGHT..sometimes partially right. Sometimes wrong. When they are wrong, they lead you to believe that they MAY be wrong...for now. Leaving the future open. If JR comes down with left-side (was it? heart problems, let's say 5 years from now...Sylvia will remind us that she was the first one to tell us about this on Larry King. And if you say that she insisted he has the problem NOW...she could say that sometimes the information isn't totally clear...but it's still pretty remarkable that he ended up getting the thing she mentioned.


Nope, I'm afraid trying to discredit mediums in general is no easy task. There are even fairly intelligent people who believe in mediums...as there are fairly intelligent people who believe in every dogma presented in the Bible.

Lord Kenneth---I have to go find my dictionary to look up that one word you threw at me. :)

[Ladewig]

It may be too late to prevent the $700 from being spent on Sylvia. On the other hand, you should assuredly take steps to make sure that the next $700 is not spent. Coach your step-mom in not giving detailed feedback. Encourage her to listen rather than explain.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Iamme
Gee, Yahweh?
I have a lot of built of negativety :D...

I feel like an idiot now, for posting what I did. Hmmm. You have her all figured out for sure, I guess. I guess then that that means you could run to a tabloid and present a very logical case againstr her, and then cash in on a share of the profits, for helping the tabloid by showing them in a very scientific appropach, what a fraud she is.
Mr. Randi has already taken the liberty of doing that...

The trouble is with trying to 'nail' people llike Sylvia, is that they are as slippery as a snake.
About as slippery as closing your eyes, plugging you ears, and sticking your head in the ground. Hey, didnt she accept the JREF challenge, then refuse to take the test.

Let's apply that to a real life scenario: Its Friday, and I give all my classes a test. One student refuses to take the test, turns in a blank test paper. I give them a 0. They get upset because they think they dont deserve the 0 because they weren't actually tested. So I take their paper, I look at the 0, I think for a few seconds, then I under it three times. The kid failed the test.

When they say they feel this, or feel that...it can apply to the past, present or future. Couple THAT with the fact that sometimes they are RIGHT..sometimes partially right. Sometimes wrong. When they are wrong, they lead you to believe that they MAY be wrong...for now. Leaving the future open. If JR comes down with left-side (was it? heart problems, let's say 5 years from now...Sylvia will remind us that she was the first one to tell us about this on Larry King. And if you say that she insisted he has the problem NOW...she could say that sometimes the information isn't totally clear...but it's still pretty remarkable that he ended up getting the thing she mentioned.
I think providing convenient evasive answers still means you fail the test.


Nope, I'm afraid trying to discredit mediums in general is no easy task. There are even fairly intelligent people who believe in mediums...as there are fairly intelligent people who believe in every dogma presented in the Bible.
That's mildly contradictory. "Its going to be hard to discredit mediums" and "intelligent people believe in mediums", its not the believers that prove the validity of a psychic. If 1,000,000,000 people believe something false to be true, it is still false (compliments of a signature I read on this forum a while ago).

Lord Kenneth---I have to go find my dictionary to look up that one word you threw at me. :)
Using my psychic powers, I've guessed the word you need defining is "solipsism".

Solipsism is the theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified. Its a Philsophical form of skepticism that says pretty much "I dont believe in anything, except that I exist".

[Iamme]

Lord Kenneth--That's easy for you to say. (Everything in your post.) Why are we here on this board.? Isn't there this fascination over these things that we aren't perhaps 100% certain about?Don't we all still kind of wonder if maybe some of these people have special abilities? Every so often, on some tv show...perhaps a cop show even, they will say how they've worked with a psychic...while at the same time, you read reports where police agencies say that they don't work with psychics. Hmmmm.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Iamme
Lord Kenneth--That's easy for you to say. (Everything in your post.) Why are we here on this board.? Isn't there this fascination over these things that we aren't perhaps 100% certain about?Don't we all still kind of wonder if maybe some of these people have special abilities? Every so often, on some tv show...perhaps a cop show even, they will say how they've worked with a psychic...while at the same time, you read reports where police agencies say that they don't work with psychics. Hmmmm.


What the hell are you talking about?

Sure, some police stations... stupid ones... may use a psychic's help but very rarely-- and even then it's only "I see the number six."or vague crap like that.

Oh, by the way, skeptics (real skeptics) aren't 100% sure on anything. That doesn't mean we won't think ridiculous ideas are ridiculous given the amount of evidence supporting them.

Sylvia Browne is a fraud, plain and simple.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Solipsism is the theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified. Its a Philsophical form of skepticism that says pretty much "I dont believe in anything, except that I exist".

Or another meaning: We cannot really know anything for sure as we cannot know everything.

Just because something cannot be 100% verified, doesn't mean it's reasonable to believe in just anything. That's why we look for evidence.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth

Sure, some police stations... stupid ones...


Please, provide us a list of such police stations. Can you do that for us?

Then you should get in contact with higher law enforcement agencies and report these police stations to them. Haven't you done that yet??


Oh, by the way, skeptics (real skeptics) aren't 100% sure on anything.


Yeah, "real skeptics", uh huh.... I think I heard of them in a cryptozoology class I had one time.


Sylvia Browne is a fraud, plain and simple.

Then report her to the proper law enforcement agencies. You will do that, won't you?

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Please, provide us a list of such police stations. Can you do that for us?

Then you should get in contact with higher law enforcement agencies and report these police stations to them. Haven't you done that yet??

[/b]

Yeah, "real skeptics", uh huh.... I think I heard of them in a cryptozoology class I had one time.



Then report her to the proper law enforcement agencies. You will do that, won't you? [/B]

Oh, so there aren't any police stations that have foolishly worked with "psychics"? I didn't realize that.

Oh, and mentioned before, Woo-woodini... the government simply does not generally care about unfalsifiable claims.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Please, provide us a list of such police stations. Can you do that for us?

Then you should get in contact with higher law enforcement agencies and report these police stations to them. Haven't you done that yet??

[/b]

Yeah, "real skeptics", uh huh.... I think I heard of them in a cryptozoology class I had one time.



Then report her to the proper law enforcement agencies. You will do that, won't you? [/B]

Awww, T'ai. You're burning out already! Your wing is clipped and you're flying in ever-decreasing circles. Next time you create a new avatar, a bit of advice:

1. Don't claim expertise you so clearly can't back up. It is a red flag. It causes the blood hounds to start sniffing around for recognizable odors.

2. Don't give yourself away so fast. You'll fool more people if you don't let them know how monumentally stupid you are so quickly.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth

Oh, so there aren't any police stations that have foolishly worked with "psychics"? I didn't realize that.


You haven't provided us with a list yet, Lord Kenneth..

I wonder why not?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You haven't provided us with a list yet, Lord Kenneth..

I wonder why not? [/B]

Because it isn't necessary. I know the rules in Chiville differ. And I know all the Chis in Chiville believe them with all their hearts.

(Anybody interested should watch T'ai's posting history with me. He knows I caught onto him very early on and is now avoiding me at all costs. His last incarnation did not fare well, and this one is hoping to last longer. But the smoke is already in the air, along with the smell of burning pimples.))

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You haven't provided us with a list yet, Lord Kenneth..

I wonder why not? [/B]

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I didn't realize I was wrong.

http://members.cox.net/lordkenneth/images/tinfoil.jpg

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I didn't realize I was wrong.


You wan't any syrup to go with your waffling?

You said:


Sure, some police stations... stupid ones... may use a psychic's help but very rarely--


So you said "some" but can't name any??

Ok...

I guess the super duper skeptics don't have to back up their assertions.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You wan't any syrup to go with your waffling?

You said:



So you said "some" but can't name any??

Ok...

I guess the super duper skeptics don't have to back up their assertions. [/B]

To which I replied:

"Oh, so there aren't any police stations that have foolishly worked with "psychics"? I didn't realize that."

Apparently, I was wrong, and you corrected me. You are correct, right?

[Clancie]

Kenneth,

If I said, "Psychics have often worked with police departments", you would, of course, ask "Oh, really? Which ones?" and expect me to be able to name them--or else just admit that I don't know what I'm talking about.

That's the choice T'ai Chi is giving you. Name all these "stupid" police departments who work with psychics or else just admit that you really don't know any specficis at all of what you are talking about.

Trying to shift the focus back to T'ai Chi as if he was the one who made the statement, is just a (very clumsy) diversionary tactic.

In other words, Kenneth, either you know what you're talking about and can give specifics--or you don't know what you're talking about and should just say so.

P.S. You say that "the government does not care about unfalsifiable claims." Lol They do actually care about what you've said Sylvia is guilty of...which is "fraud".

You do understand that fraud is a crime, Kenneth, and the law will prosecute it when you provide them with your evidence.

[Lord Kenneth]

What? I admitted I was apparently wrong. What is the problem with that, Clancie?

Oh, that's right, you couldn't understand a concept like that.

But, seriously, Clancie, here's some stats:

http://pac-c.org/police%20&%20psychics.htm

There are also many cases reported where psychics have worked with police stations as well. Rather silly, but it certainly doesn't violate the laws of the universe as we know them.


A simple google search is all you need, really.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi

Please, provide us a list of such police stations. Can you do that for us?
------------------------------------------------------

I guess the super duper skeptics don't have to back up their assertions.
Who's assertions?

[T'ai Chi]

If I said, "Psychics have often worked with police departments", you would, of course, ask "Oh, really? Which ones?" and expect me to be able to name them--or else just admit that I don't know what I'm talking about.


There is definitely a double-standard here. It is actually quite common to use, and not admit to using, double standards, especially on the Internet, for posters who have a 'home court advantage'.


That's the choice T'ai Chi is giving you. Name all these "stupid" police departments who work with psychics or else just admit that you really don't know any specficis at all of what you are talking about.


Ehh, he won't. Probably no one will. I'd guess that some will just moan about, ad hom some more, and still not actually name anyone.

From what I know, I believe that all policemen, women, and departments, are highly professional and competent professionals who do a darn good job.


P.S. You say that "the government does not care about unfalsifiable claims." Lol They do actually care about what you've said Sylvia is guilty of...which is "fraud".


I like how they say "the government". Like that even means anything at all with the government being so large.

[Foodbunny]

... He said something wrong, was corrected, and has admitted that he was wrong. Exactly what is the problem here?

[Clancie]

Posted by Lord Kenneth

Sure, some police stations... stupid ones... may use a psychic's help but very rarely

Then, asked for a list, you say....
Posted by Lord Kenneth

What? I admitted I was apparently wrong. What is the problem with that, Clancie?
Okay, so you are saying you were wrong. But then you go right on to say this:
Posted by Lord Kenneth

But, seriously, Clancie, here's some stats:

http://pac-c.org/police%20&%20psychics.htm

There are also many cases reported where psychics have worked with police stations as well
So....Are you saying you were right? Or are you saying you were wrong? :confused: I find your above point very unclear.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Foodbunny
... He said something wrong, was corrected, and has admitted that he was wrong. Exactly what is the problem here?
Many humans in their natural environment dont tend to get along, especially in small areas. Its called biology (or cabin fever). :D

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Clancie


Then, asked for a list, you say....
[/B]
Okay, so you are saying you were wrong. But then you go right on to say this:
[/B]
So....Are you saying you were right? Or are you saying you were wrong? :confused: I find your above point very unclear. [/B]

On closer examination, I believe I actually was right.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth

On closer examination, I believe I actually was right.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread.

So what is the big harm if a stepmother spends $700 on Sylvia Browne products?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
So what is the big harm if a stepmother spends $700 on Sylvia Browne products?
Because the belief is harmful both mentally and financially.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Because the belief is harmful both mentally and financially.

That can be said about anything.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
That can be said about anything.
Education?
Secularism?
Petting kitties?

As a penguin once said, are you being deliberately obtuse?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Yahweh

As a penguin once said, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Penguin who?? Answer: Who Cares.

Are you being obtuse?

By the context, I meant that that can be said about any belief, not about anything in the universe.

The charge 'harmful financially' can be said about any hobby that involves spending money. People spend money on what they like.

I'd never have imagined that!

One could make the same vague charges of 'harmful mentally' and 'harmful financially' to skepticism.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Are you being obtuse?
My training in being a teacher and Philosopher prevents me from being obtuse.

By the context, I meant that that can be said about any belief, not about anything in the universe.

The charge 'harmful financially' can be said about any hobby that involves spending money. People spend money on what they like.

I'd never have imagined that!

One could make the same vague charges of 'harmful mentally' and 'harmful financially' to skepticism.
In the case of beliefs, I dont think anyone see how anyone could be mentally or financially harmed through skepticism.

In the case of psychics, Sylvia Brown has only but one de$ire, and helping others is not it (I dont consider it "help" when a person such as Sylvia counsels another by playing with their emotions and taking advantage of their gullibility for profit, I call that being a conman)...

Edited to remove extra word...

[Lord Kenneth]

Sylvia's direct intent is to leech off of and manilpute other people.

This is not a technicallity.

Again, this isn't good-- she is willingly being manipulated and is having money scammed out of her.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
[B]

Penguin who?? Answer: Who Cares.

/B]

Nice try, Whodini, but he said "as A penguin once said...", not "as penguin once said...".

Most people would probably shrug it off, probably as just an odd statement or joke, but you made sure to mention it to make yourself appear as a new member.

Your feigned lack of knowledge is amusing. You do a poor job actting like a new member to these forums.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Yahweh

My training in being in a teacher and Philosopher prevents me from being obtuse.


Prevented from being obtuse... I'll have to use that line sometime.


In the case of beliefs, I dont think anyone see how anyone could be mentally or financially harmed through skepticism.


What if you become a militant skeptic, where you feel a deep need to convince everyone that they are behaving irrational? What if you spend a lot of money on skeptical products? For example, memberships to all the skeptical groups, videos, magazines, forks bent by Randi ;) , going to skeptical meetings, etc. This could add up financially.


In the case of psychics, Sylvia Brown has only but one de$ire, and helping others is not it


I personally can't read peoples' minds, although it looks like you can.

[Ladewig]

Lord Kenneth-
Sure, some police stations... stupid ones... may use a psychic's help but very rarely-- and even then it's only "I see the number six."or vague crap like that.


T'ai Chi-
From what I know, I believe that all policemen, women, and departments, are highly professional and competent professionals who do a darn good job.


I have to take issue with the claim that all police departments are highly professional and competent. Dozens of U.S. police departments spent between $1000 and $8000 for Quadro Trackers despite the products' being completly worthless. Police officers who fell for scams from fast-talking con-artists selling worthless products might fall for scams from fast-talking con-artists offering services.

Also, it is important to note that police officers who agree to talk to unsolicited psychics are not always doing so out of a belief in supernatural powers. Police sometimes consider these psychics suspects or even witnesses who do not want to get involved.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Dozens of U.S. police departments spent between $1000 and $8000 for Quadro Trackers despite the products' being completly worthless.


List 12 such U.S. police departments.

I would say that all police departments are VERY competent.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
What if you become a militant skeptic, where you feel a deep need to convince everyone that they are behaving irrational? What if you spend a lot of money on skeptical products? For example, memberships to all the skeptical groups, videos, magazines, forks bent by Randi ;) , going to skeptical meetings, etc. This could add up financially.
Education requires funding. And if it helps at all, JREF is funded through donation. Some memberships come at a fee, this is what as known as "capitalism". I dont call it financial harm, the services dont come at the expense of another.

Pretending to be a psychic to feast off the emotions of the gullible for profit... I'd call that financial harm if I ever heard of such a thing...

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Anyway, back to the subject of this thread.

So what is the big harm if a stepmother spends $700 on Sylvia Browne products?

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
-Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I would say that all police departments are VERY competent.


Where is your evidence that all police and police departments are competent? Do you reject any notion of police brutality?

[Ladewig]

Here's (http://www.ih2000.net/ira/quad0422.htm) an AP wire story from 1996 that says "Quadro has sold about 1,000 trackers to school districts and law enforcement agencies nationwide at prices up to $8,000."

So far I found four specific agencies. I'll keep looking for the others

Alabama Department of Corrections
Jefferson County Narcotics Task Force
Harleyville, S.C. Police Department (Harleyville was the headquarters for the Quadro Corporation)
Lubbock, Texas Sheriff

[Ladewig]

There's an article in the latest issue of Skeptic. Perhaps showing her that along with articles from previous issues of Skeptical Inquirer.

As for bring fraud charges against Ms. Browne; a conviction requires showing that the culprit knew the statements used to obtain money were false. Psychics can always claim that they believed the voices that they hear.