Roseland Council Conduct - Split from: Tasering political Opinion

[Oliver]

Holy Crap! Does someone know when this incident happened?

bU9TBiH6Mlk

[greymatters]

Holy Crap! Does someone know when this incident happened?

bU9TBiH6Mlk

This took place Friday, September 14, 2007 in Roseland, Indiana (http://tinyurl.com/yooujv).

There is more detail in the WDNU coverage of the story (http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/9793807.html?pollSubmit=y&submit=submit&oid=1&mr=1&cid=6500&pid=9794147).

[Oliver]

This took place Friday, September 14, 2007 in Roseland, Indiana (http://tinyurl.com/yooujv).

There is more detail in the WDNU coverage of the story (http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/9793807.html?pollSubmit=y&submit=submit&oid=1&mr=1&cid=6500&pid=9794147).


Thanks for the link, Greymatters. That's eerie stuff - and
according to the first story at WDNU (http://www.wndu.com/videoplus/headlines/9834111.html) all he said was: "Oh
the bully is still whatever" - before the Cop went banana.

[Flo]

A cop going banana doesn't a facist state makes.

[Oliver]

A cop going banana doesn't a facist state makes.


Nobody claimed that.

[Flo]

Nobody claimed that.



Preventive remarks ...

[Lonewulf]

Holy Crap! Does someone know when this incident happened?

bU9TBiH6Mlk
Now here, you DEFINITELY have a case for police brutality. In this case, it's in stark contrast to what happened in the University of Florida.

The man was complying and leaving, and the police had no business assaulting him, and I somehow doubt they had any business arresting him.

Oh, but that one woman in the video apparently thought it was justified because she didn't like the guy. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[Kilgore Trout]

Interesting that that video was found. I'm not saying the cop acted in a perfect manner, but there really is a LOT to the story. (If there is further discussion of Roseland, perhaps this needs a split..)

For some background, though I'm afraid all from memory, by a local. It has been a very long, continuing ordeal with the Snyders in Roseland. It's actually considered something of a joke by people that live in the area, albeit a tragic one.

First, Roseland is a very small area located at the exit of 80/90 in South Bend, IN. There are some low/middle class homes, and many restaurants, hotels, and gas stations that line (what was once) US30. It does amazing business during Notre Dame home games. A very large number of people that come in to town for football (and other athletic) events, right at Roseland.

Dorothy Snyder was elected to the town council (a three member council) awhile ago. During her term, David was elected and then the two married. The two were able to effectively run the town as the two of them would vote together, and the third member of the council basically was always in the minority. There is no mayor or anything like that (it's really quite small); only the town council.

During their term they made it a habit to bully and intimidate. (David was very well known for using his size (It may not be evident in the video, but he's easily 6 foot or more) to get into peoples' faces and butt out his chest, and yell obscenities at them.) They would constantly levy fines against the residents of Roseland for various things like having a broken chair in their lawn or even signs, many of which read "Give back Roseland" or "Snyders Get Out". (The Pizza King was famous for having "Welcome to Snyderville" on their sign for years.) At one point the Snyders' home was vandalized and "Get out" was spray painted on their home. David's comment at the time was to the tune that religious fundamentalists were anti-government.

One of the more infamous, is a family that wanted to sell their home, but the Snyders levied tens of thousands of dollars in fines against the family and they were unable to sell their home. After court appearances, the fines were dropped; the family sued Roseland and won (or was settled, I forget) because they were unable to sell their home.

Meetings were a circus. Dorothy kicked people out for the most insane of offenses. She had an old woman kicked out once for saying "Amen" at the end of the pledge of allegiance. An old man was arrested, when he was handcuffed his wrists bled and he was taken to the hospital. After the hospital he was taken to the county jail and immediately released.

Dorothy's term was up and she decided to run for state government. She really thought she had a chance, and had no idea why people didn't like her in Roseland. She got two or three votes. (The joke, and probably reality, is that those votes were probably her and David.) David's term is still in effect.

It is in question, however. Why? Because of a couple things. He owes a great deal of back child-support to his wife, and two children, one of whom has special needs. They live in Texas as far as I know. He occasionally goes to court to have portions ordered paid. It seems, however, that owing child support does not mean someone can't hold that office. He, reportedly, has little money, though, as a couple they are not hard up; everything of real value is in her name.

However, he does have a felony count against him. (Trying to stick to only facts..) A few months ago, he, Dorothy, I think David's father and one of the other council members (Charlie Shields, if I remember, a rather elderly fellow.) were meeting in the town hall. A citizen of Roseland was outside and heard a scuffle inside. Dorothy ran around to lock all the doors. Later, charges of assault and battery were charged against David, while David contends the man just fell down. He hasn't gone to trial for this, but it's been bounced around that David shouldn't be in office until it is resolved, or that he will lose office if he is convicted.

What else... What else.. Oh a friend of the Snyders is also the town clerk. The town received some money from the lease of the toll road for road repairs. She put the money into the fund entirely, but then lost it for awhile citing problems with the computer and it was all in the sky someplace. For a month or more she said she couldn't go to work because it was too upsetting for her. She tried to have Dorothy fill in for her, but that didn't fly. The state ordered an audit and has yet to receive the information I believe.

It's recently been reported that the town has so little money (I think because of the settlement with the aforementioned family), it can't pay its police force. I do not know if this includes the town marshall that is in question with this video, but the regular police force has had its pay dropped to $6 an hour. The police have said that they just can't in good conscience leave the town without a police force, so it has accepted this (though, they said it in a way like "we'll accept this for this month" or something, not implying they were going to accept it indefinitely).

Sorry if that was rambling, and I don't have tons of sources to back all that up or whatever.. Just rather surprised the story got to the JREF forum and wanted to throw out some bits about the infamous Roseland Snyders. I could try and find articles if needed on WSBT and WNDU. (By the way it's WNDU (ND-U.. Notre Dame University, though I dont' think they are still affiliated, not WDNU.) And, I do leave a caveat that, because this was from memory, I might be off on a couple bits and there's probably things I've missed, but the jist remains that those are not the best of humanity. Does it excuse that cop? Did he see a way he could get in a few shots? Did David say something (or throw an elbow, which has been rumored; I don't really see it, but if I remember you can't really see entirely clearly) and cause that cop to just snap? Was that cop one that had his pay cut to a measly $6/hr? I can't say, but this isn't an isolated, "Holy smokes, that cop beat up that poor innocent man!"

ETA: I just remembered that a Notre Dame student made a documentary about the Snyders (though completed at the beginning of the year, or thereabouts, so isn't up to date). I'll try and find it, though I doubt it is online.

[Kilgore Trout]

Best I can find is this (http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/sp2007/snyderville.html). It has a trailer to the documentary anyway. The article also mentions the fracas with another council member -- it was Tedd Penn, not Charlie Shields, like I said in my reply above.

[Lurker]

What is the relation of that Snyder story to the taser story? The student is Andrew Meyer, what do the Snyders have to do with it?

Lurker (too lazy to research)

[Kilgore Trout]

David Snyder was brought up as a victim of police brutality and I thought some background was required to show that the man has a history that doesn't make it as cut and dry as only that article/video might show. The only relation to Meyer is the claim of police brutality, which is why I said there may need to be a split if there is more discussion about the Snyders.

[Lurker]

David Snyder was brought up as a victim of police brutality and I thought some background was required to show that the man has a history that doesn't make it as cut and dry as only that article/video might show. The only relation to Meyer is the claim of police brutality, which is why I said there may need to be a split if there is more discussion about the Snyders.


OK, I did not check out the police brutality videos recently posted. Thx!

Lurker

[Lonewulf]

David Snyder was brought up as a victim of police brutality and I thought some background was required to show that the man has a history that doesn't make it as cut and dry as only that article/video might show.
No amount of backstory will make me think that the police brutality here was, in a law-abiding society, justifiable.

In a law-abiding society, there are laws to follow, even against people you don't like, and even against people with a history of being ********, dumbasses, jackasses, or any number of a-words you want to use. You cannot steal from someone -- even if he's made you REALLY angry -- in a law-abiding society. You also can't kill someone -- even if he committed a major crime that he ended up not getting prosecuted for for whatever reason -- in a law-abiding society. You also cannot assault and batter someone -- even if you DON'T LIKE HIM -- in a law-abiding society.

Police officers have to follow the same law they enforce.

[Kilgore Trout]

No amount of backstory will make me think that the police brutality here was, in a law-abiding society, justifiable.

I didn't say it was justifiable. I just wanted to point out that the man has a history, not limited to bullying people, an alleged assault on a fellow council member, and he even helped create a situation where the town is able to only pay their police $6/hr. There is much more to the story than that isolated incident.

I believe that officer snapped with his hatred of David Snyder and, while I think an arrest may be warranted, roughing him up was not. Should that officer even have been there in a situation with a man he hated? I wouldn't think so, but then, not many people are going to become police officers for just $6 an hour -- a situation David Snyder actually helped create himself.

[Lonewulf]

I didn't say it was justifiable. I just wanted to point out that the man has a history, not limited to bullying people, an alleged assault on a fellow council member, and he even helped create a situation where the town is able to only pay their police $6/hr. There is much more to the story than that isolated incident.
Yes, there's history. And I can see why people don't like him. You judge people by how they treat the people they don't have to treat well.

I believe that officer snapped with his hatred of David Snyder and, while I think an arrest may be warranted, roughing him up was not
An arrest may be warranted? For what? Arguing with a council member?! That's enough to arrest someone and send them to jail?

Assaulting a council member, I can see, but has it gotten so bad you can be arrested just for arguing with someone?

Should that officer even have been there in a situation with a man he hated? I wouldn't think so, but then, not many people are going to become police officers for just $6 an hour -- a situation David Snyder actually helped create himself.
Which makes his actions understandable from a human perspective, but not justifiable by the law's perspective.

[WildCat]

Yes, there's history. And I can see why people don't like him. You judge people by how they treat the people they don't have to treat well.


An arrest may be warranted? For what? Arguing with a council member?! That's enough to arrest someone and send them to jail?

Assaulting a council member, I can see, but has it gotten so bad you can be arrested just for arguing with someone?


Which makes his actions understandable from a human perspective, but not justifiable by the law's perspective.
There's video here (http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/9793807.html#), since the youtube one was taken down. He was not arrested at the council meeting for arguing. He was removed from the meeting (not arrested) and on his way out allegedly struck the police officer. There's a woman in a yellow shirt who cheers on the police officer... the whole thing is weird.

[Kilgore Trout]

An arrest may be warranted? For what? Arguing with a council member?! That's enough to arrest someone and send them to jail?
In Roseland? Yes. Talking out of turn is enough to get you thrown out as is saying "Amen" at the wrong time. Dorothy was famous for it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Searching the local library's newspaper archive I found an article* that has what the county prosecutor had to say about two previous arrests: "For a disorderly conduct charge to apply, Dvorak explained, a person making unreasonable noise at a meeting must be asked to stop first. If the person continues, then there may be grounds for a disorderly conduct arrest." The prosecutor said that this isn't about who they can throw out or not (basically it's up to them) but for a charge to be filed, it has to be "disorderly conduct."

This video shows Shields telling Snyder twice that he was "warned" yet Snyder persisted with yelling. Shields then stood, pointed, and said "Out!" Snyder mumbled something about a senile old fart. That might stick as disorderly conduct.

Which makes his actions understandable from a human perspective, but not justifiable by the law's perspective.

I don't disagree.

If the only thing presented in this thread was Oliver's video, it would take the incident out of context as an isolated incident of an unprovoked attack by a police officer while people asked Snyder how it felt and other baffling jeers.

* The article was by way of my library's online search that required my library card. I don't know how it can be accessed without a local library card. If someone thinks I'm making this all up, I can try and find some other way to link or something.

[robinson]

I love it when the big Cop that threw him down and punched him in the head asks him, "Who hit you?, and ""Did you trip and fall?".

Priceless.

[WildCat]

Apparently Snyder is back in jail after failing to get a job to pay his child support. http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070925/News01/709250333/0/BIZ

[Kilgore Trout]

I love it when the big Cop that threw him down and punched him in the head asks him, "Who hit you?, and ""Did you trip and fall?".

Priceless.

That wasn't the cop saying that. The full quote would be "Who hit you, Jack?" The arresting officer's name is Jack. "Did you trip and fall?" was asking if Jack just accidentally tripped and fell, taking Snyder down with him. I would imagine it was just a "witness."

[Lonewulf]

In Roseland? Yes. Talking out of turn is enough to get you thrown out as is saying "Amen" at the wrong time. Dorothy was famous for it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

1) In your world, "arrest" is the same as "getting thrown out"?

2) In this case, I'd sue for animal abuse for goose and gander.

Well, glad to hear that you can get ARRESTED, have HANDCUFFS put on you, maybe throw in some police brutality to make things all nice and stuff, and probably get driven down to A PRISON for "talking out of turn". Definitely what you'd expect to see in a free country... *nods*

[Kilgore Trout]

1) In your world, "arrest" is the same as "talking out of turn"?
I don't think you read all of my post. It is not "my world" it is Roseland, Indiana we are talking about. And no, talking out of turn is not arrest. Talking out of turn just gets you thrown out of the meeting. In "my world" talking out of turn means no cookies and juice after the meeting, but it's not "my world" we're talking about.

I'll repeat myself, since you missed it. In a prior incident, two people were thrown out and arrested. The prosecutor determined there was no need for charges to be filed because they did not commit "disorderly conduct" which is a punishable offense. Disorderly conduct, the prosecutor defined, is an incident where someone is "making unreasonable noise at a meeting [they] must be asked to stop first. If the person continues, then there may be grounds for a disorderly conduct arrest."

Snyder was given a "warning" twice and still continued. This is disorderly conduct in this part of the world. Disagree if you want, but I've given you what the prosecutor deems as an arrest worthy of filing charges.

[Lonewulf]

I don't think you read all of my post. It is not "my world" it is Roseland, Indiana we are talking about. And no, talking out of turn is not arrest. Talking out of turn just gets you thrown out of the meeting. In "my world" talking out of turn means no cookies and juice after the meeting, but it's not "my world" we're talking about.

Sorry, misspoke.

In your world, "Arrest" is the same as "getting thrown out"? If I threw you out of my house, I would be arresting you? If you got banned from this forum, would that be the same as arresting you? Although, I admit, I was a bit harsh. How about this?

But arresting someone isn't the same as "throwing them out".

Seriously, why is it not possible to remove an individual without arresting them?

I'll repeat myself, since you missed it. In a prior incident, two people were thrown out and arrested. The prosecutor determined there was no need for charges to be filed because they did not commit "disorderly conduct" which is a punishable offense. Disorderly conduct, the prosecutor defined, is an incident where someone is "making unreasonable noise at a meeting [they] must be asked to stop first. If the person continues, then there may be grounds for a disorderly conduct arrest."

Snyder was given a "warning" twice and still continued. This is disorderly conduct in this part of the world. Disagree if you want, but I've given you what the prosecutor deems as an arrest worthy of filing charges.
Well, I'm "glad" to see you can be arrested for talking out of turn and being loud at a friggin' meeting in Roseland, Indiana. I wonder what would have happened if these rules applied to the meetings that Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton attended in the construction of the United States of America. Here's a tip: They didn't get along very well.
I see the "F--k All Authority" crowd is having a field day.

I see the "**** everyone the authorities want to beat up or arrest" crowd is having a field day.

Do you have anything meaningful to add, or should I save time and throw you onto my ignore list now?

Because, I can let you sit there and battle strawmen all day long. How about actually dealing with what I'm saying, and not the feces you pull out of your anus and shove into my mouth, neh?

I like to believe that I am a citizen under a free society. And part of my rights under this free society is to disagree with mishandling of authority. If you truly believe that authorities should be able to do what they want, when they want, HOWEVER they want, then you do not want to live in a free society.

[Kilgore Trout]

In your world, "Arrest" is the same as "getting thrown out"? If I threw you out of my house, I would be arresting you? If you got banned from this forum, would that be the same as arresting you?


No, there's a difference (in Roseland). In my world as you so playfully call it, you just don't get cookies and juice for disturbing a meeting, like I said. Also, in my world, disorderly conduct gets you the comfy chair.

Getting thrown out is just that, getting thrown out. Disturbing a meeting by, say, talking out of turn, means you have to leave and nothing more. But disorderly conduct is a punishable offense for which one can be arrested. Shields, in yelling "out!" was throwing Snyder out of the meeting. It is not his call if the officer actually arrests Snyder or just escorts him out, but it is very possible Snyder had broken a law at that point because he ignored Shield's warning and continued to be disruptive.

Well, I'm "glad" to see you can be arrested for talking out of turn and being loud at a friggin' meeting in Indiana.
If you are asked to stop, and you continue, this is correct. For just talking out of turn, or only being loud, you cannot be arrested -- but you can be thrown out of the meeting.

[Lonewulf]

No, there's a difference (in Roseland). In my world as you so playfully call it, you just don't get cookies and juice for disturbing a meeting, like I said. Also, in my world, disorderly conduct gets you the comfy chair.

Getting thrown out is just that, getting thrown out. Disturbing a meeting by, say, talking out of turn, means you have to leave and nothing more. But disorderly conduct is a punishable offense for which one can be arrested. Shields, in yelling "out!" was throwing Snyder out of the meeting. It is not his call if the officer actually arrests Snyder or just escorts him out, but it is very possible Snyder had broken a law at that point because he ignored Shield's warning and continued to be disruptive.

If you are asked to stop, and you continue, this is correct. For just talking out of turn, or only being loud, you cannot be arrested -- but you can be thrown out of the meeting.
Okay, I think I get what you're saying.

I still don't agree with it at all, though.

[Kilgore Trout]

Okay, I think I get what you're saying.

I still don't agree with it at all, though.

If this wasn't Roseland, I would agree. You'd think there is room for rationality and judgment. Big deal if someone talks a little loudly or wants to interject a quick point. If it escalates to a point where it's a shouting match, well then boot people out. An arrest would only seem necessarily if blows are thrown or a habitual offender perhaps.

In Roseland, however, for years the Snyders were sticklers about each and every point down to the exact wording. That's probably why there's the argument about "1 minute" in addition to having the floor, and a turn to speak, and all that in the video. It's also why I said good for the goose, good for the gander. Since David has been so keen on citing each and every tiny bit, throwing people out for the silliest of things, when it's his turn and he's the one shouting, then also follow it to the very letter of the law.

ETA: This is also another reason I brought all this up about Roseland. We're not talking about a real sane place with reasoning, intelligent human beings with mutual respect for one another. This is Roseland. Tragic laughing stock of northern Indiana.

[Lonewulf]

If this wasn't Roseland, I would agree. You'd think there is room for rationality and judgment. Big deal if someone talks a little loudly or wants to interject a quick point. If it escalates to a point where it's a shouting match, well then boot people out. An arrest would only seem necessarily if blows are thrown or a habitual offender perhaps.

In Roseland, however, for years the Snyders were sticklers about each and every point down to the exact wording. That's probably why there's the argument about "1 minute" in addition to having the floor, and a turn to speak, and all that in the video. It's also why I said good for the goose, good for the gander. Since David has been so keen on citing each and every tiny bit, throwing people out for the silliest of things, when it's his turn and he's the one shouting, then also follow it to the very letter of the law.

ETA: This is also another reason I brought all this up about Roseland. We're not talking about a real sane place with reasoning, intelligent human beings with mutual respect for one another. This is Roseland. Tragic laughing stock of northern Indiana.
Hahaha, you make a cogent point, actually.

Quoted post has been moved from thread

[chillzero]

Sorry for the delay in splitting this out. A few posts have been removed to AAH - none of this was for moderation purposes; they just made no sense in either thread any longer. I hope I got the correct posts. PM me if I got any in the wrong context.

[Kilgore Trout]

The prosecutor has called for a grand jury (http://www.wsbt.com/news/10229641.html) to review the incident and determine if charges should be filed, and against whom.

Although not mentioned in that particular article, the news has said that Tiller (the officer in question) claims Snyder hit him as he was escorting him out.

To hazard a guess, I think the prosecutor would like this to all go away and figures this is the best way, which also defers some of the responsibility.