Crop Circles in Ohio

[Pyrrho]

Whee!!! Let all the kooks come to Ohio to prey!

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2460606/detail.html


An independent crop-circle investigator visited the site and said the radiation levels and electrical and magnetic fields were higher inside than the land outside the design.

Dang that ol' radiation...watch out for the radioactive spiders, though...

[arcticpenguin]

They don't even name that "independent crop-circle investigator"? What a sorry excuse for journalism. We need to know on whom to heap ridicule.

[Pyrrho]

Another link, better picture. BTW other crop circles have appeared near other towns named Peebles. :eek:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

http://www.peoplesdefender.com/


The design, designated as a crop circle, was first seen by Delsey Knoechelman, of Peebles, on Sunday, Aug. 24 around 11 a.m. Knoechelman stated that the creation was not there on Saturday as she inspected the fields in the area for flood damage. She returned to her home where she contacted the Adams County Sheriff's office and then returned to the site with family. Knoechelman's father, Jim McKenzie, inspected the site with a metal detector, where he found several different metallic levels and minerals in the outlining circle. According to McKenzie, one circle had higher concentrated levels of minerals than did the others.

Jeff Wilson, an independent crop circle investigator from Dexter, Mich., documented slightly higher radiation levels inside the design, as well as slightly higher electrical and magnetic fields than those outside of the marking. The plants inside the cirles have been swirled to the ground and have sustained heat damage. According to Wilson, it is more difficult to analyze markings such as the ones found at the site because there have only been an estimated 10 reported markings in soybeans in the United States.

[MRC_Hans]

:v: Radiation level? Electrical and magnetic fields? Measured how?

But they are learning: Now it is "than the land outside the design". Earlier it was just "higher". I see this as a sign of the pressure by the skeptic community (hopefully :rolleyes:)

Hans

[Mr. Skinny]

I saw this on the evening news in Dayton, Pyrrho. In the same half-hour local newscast I also got a story on the "haunted" police station in Shelbyville, KY. When they broke for commercial, I saw an ad for "world renowned"? psychics Tony Santos and Carole Lynne, who are going to appear at a Holiday Inn in town this weekend. Never heard of either of the buggers.

About that time my skept-o-meter exploded and I had to turn the TV off.

I think it's time for an e-mail to WDTN Channel 2 in Dayton.

[SquishyDave]

What gets me are the survey options.

Yes, it's a sign from another galaxy.

or

No, it's a hoax.

What if you think it's a sign from within our own galaxy? You can't vote then :(

[MRC_Hans]

Yes, or if you believe, like me, that no crop circles are hoaxes: They are all made by genuine humans. :cool:

Hans

[Iamme]

Crop circles have intrigued me like no other thing, in history. The claims! Yet, the conflicting claims regarding the evidence. You have all these researchers...yet, who ARE these researchers? (the guys name listed above? Hmmmm...a TABloid couldn't make up a more goofy sounding name!) Wouldn't 'they' already know the truth? And what about this reputed claim of something like 10,000 crop circles world-wide? Supposedly they had these things around, centuries before the British hoaxers were born.

Could it possibly be that there have actually been SIMPLE crop circles formed by an energy field of some sort...and THEN the hoaxers came along and started with their extravagent designs? Surely, you would think there would be departments in universities studying these things and would have knowledge about at least hundreds of specific ones. Then, there atre people...witnesses who claim to have seen these little light balls that are forming them...and some say these things form almost instantly.

Have crop circles ever appeared in grassy fields far and away from where populations exist? What crops are the affected ones? Surely, researchers would be able to find out if human feet were in the area...wouldn't they? I could go on and on.

It's quite maddening. This is like what we went through in trying to determine if there was/is anything supernatural/paranormal about the Bermuda Triangle.

I wonder too, if Joe Newman believes in Crop Circles. He believes that a (his) energy machine can keep powering a grid, and returning more energy to the machine than what it started with! :wink8:

[Glory]

Originally posted by Iamme
Crop circles have intrigued me like no other thing, in history. The claims! Yet, the conflicting claims regarding the evidence. You have all these researchers...yet, who ARE these researchers? (the guys name listed above? Hmmmm...a TABloid couldn't make up a more goofy sounding name!) Wouldn't 'they' already know the truth? And what about this reputed claim of something like 10,000 crop circles world-wide? Supposedly they had these things around, centuries before the British hoaxers were born.

Supposedly. There is no published evidence of any kind that there was ever a crop circle before the Brirish Hoaxers started making theirs.

Could it possibly be that there have actually been SIMPLE crop circles formed by an energy field of some sort...and THEN the hoaxers came along and started with their extravagent designs?

It really depends on how far out onto the limb of probability one is willing to go. It is extremely unlikely that an energy field or anything or anyone but human beings is responsible for crop circles. So unlikely in fact that I have no choice to but to conclude that there is no compelling reason to believe that there is anything supernatural or alien about them.

Surely, you would think there would be departments in universities studying these things and would have knowledge about at least hundreds of specific ones.

Not if there is nothing to study.

Then, there atre people...witnesses who claim to have seen these little light balls that are forming them...and some say these things form almost instantly.

People make all kinds of claims. One must evaluate the veracity, and reliabilty of those claims. All of the claims I have read or seen are extremely suspect.

Have crop circles ever appeared in grassy fields far and away from where populations exist?

There is no way to know for sure. The problem is that if one sees a crop circle in a remote spot, how can one conclude that people are not responsible for it. It is not as if the area is entirely inaccessable to people or the discovery could not have been made.

What crops are the affected ones?

Wheat, barley, rye...Anything that lies down nicely. Corn is not conducive to crop circles and niether are tomatoes or berries etc...The circle makers are always polite enough not to utterly destroy the crop by crushing the fruit or burning anything.

Surely, researchers would be able to find out if human feet were in the area...wouldn't they? I could go on and on.

Usually they can and usually they find that human feet have indeed been in the area. Not terribly surprising. Also remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I wonder too, if Joe Newman believes in Crop Circles. He believes that a (his) energy machine can keep powering a grid, and returning more energy to the machine than what it started with! :wink8:

Newman is obviously a man of science! He would never buy into such nonsense as it is clearly impossible to make any real money with crop circles.;)

Glory

[Iamme]

Gloria--Does this mean then that you don't believe in unexplained crop circles?:roll:

[Glory]

Originally posted by Iamme
Gloria--Does this mean then that you don't believe in unexplained crop circles?:roll:

Who's Gloria?;)

Glory

[Iamme]

Sorry Glory. My bad.:o

[Kilted_Canuck]

I was thinking of making some crop circles this year with my friends, until I realized 2 things:

1. My area is a flat glacial floodplane, I could literally make a crop circle and it would never be seen, unless its noticed by a pilot.

2. None of my friends have relatives who are farmers who would let us use their land. If we were caught, the farmer would be mighty pissed we ruined some of his small crop.


Maybe next year....

[Glory]

Originally posted by Iamme
Sorry Glory. My bad.:o

No harm, no fowl. I intended to post immediately after that facetious post that I took no offense but I was distracted by a lovely Heffeweisen. Now it's really hard to type.

I believe in all sorts of things which are unexplained. I simply do not believe that such things are unexplainable.

Glory

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by Glory

I believe in all sorts of things which are unexplained. I simply do not believe that such things are unexplainable.

Glory

Interesting.

I believe in things that are unexplained as well. There is a small number (I believe 5%, don't quote me here) of UFO reports that remain unexplained. I don't think this even approaches the possibility that they are extraterrestrial spacecraft. I just accept that there's going to be things out there that no one can explain because of various circumstances. (Lack of data, poor reports, blurry photos.)

Or by "belief" do you indeed mean that you consider the unexplained residue of some paranormal claims might be truly unusual stuff? (Ghosts, psychics, aliens, etc, whatever...)

[Iamme]

..."all sorts of things unexplained" (My post addressed to nobody in particular.)

Loch Ness Monster, Bermuda Triangle, Bigfoot/Sasquatch, ghosts, aliens, crop circles, telepathy, telekenisis, psychic/mediumship, magnetic healing, parrots that that have telepathy, OBE's/NDE's, Jesus/miracles, prayer/healings/faith healings--statistics showing prayed for people heal faster..hmmm, what else is there?

There are all these 'experts' out there that have studied all of the listed, and some of the experts claim all of these things are real or could be real...while others debunk the stuff...each and every one of them. They could all be real, all fake, one real, with the rest fake, etc.

Hmmm..why are there hyraglyphics (sp.) on cave walls that show what appear to be spacemen in space suits?, or hovering vehicles?

There is a 'force' that is toying with our minds. It is the same 'force' that knew it would boggle reputed brainy people into trying to solve ....how can you have a finite circle circumference, with a finite diameter, and yet the formula (pi) which ratio formula between the two, is not a finite exact number be used to find the finite circumference??? Or, how is it that everything in the universe appears to come out of infinity, but yet wind up visibly as being finite???? (example: Take a leaf on a tree. It is finite. It's edges are defined and end at the air around it. Yet, if you peer into the leave through a microscope, you will never find the center of the leave, I don't think. You will get to a point where you start splitting and splitting the makeup of an atom, a quark, a neutrino, till infinitim...maybe.

The mysteries of life are a blessing and a curse, at the same time. They are here, for our entertainment only. For all we know, all of life might be a 'reality' that doesn't even exist.

[Loki]

lamme,

Hmmm..why are there hyraglyphics (sp.) on cave walls that show what appear to be spacemen in space suits?, or hovering vehicles?
Oh please...just don't go there, okay! Von Daniken has a lot to answer for...

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The investigators are probably BLT Research:

http://www.bltresearch.com/

That's a crop circle? It's pathetic. Here's crop circles:

http://www.circlemakers.org/bigbudget.html

Oh wait, no, that's an advertisement. Here:

http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2003.html

~~ Paul

[Charlie in Dayton]

http://images.ibsys.com/2003/0904/2457032_200X150.jpg

Why oh why oh why does that look so familiar?

http://www.chipman.org/starhoax/neworbit.jpg

(It's crosslinked from here -- you'll enter about halfway down the thread. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7659&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
The investigators are probably BLT Research:

Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato? :D

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Iamme
..."all sorts of things unexplained" (My post addressed to nobody in particular.)

Loch Ness Monster,

Not found after intensive research....

Bermuda Triangle,

Thoroughly debunked.....

Bigfoot/Sasquatch,

Which faker admitted to creating.......

ghosts, aliens,

Still not one documented case ......

crop circles,

Debunked as anything but human creations..........

telepathy, telekenisis,

Still no documented cases ......

psychic/mediumship,

No documented cases .......

magnetic healing,

Debunked ......

parrots that that have telepathy,

Debunked ......

OBE's/NDE's,

Showed to have natural explanations .......

Jesus/miracles,

Pure religion ......

prayer/healings/faith healings--statistics showing prayed for people heal faster..

All debunked ......

hmmm, what else is there?

Lessee: Homeopathy, Yoga, cattle mutilations, area (I forget number), Marfa lights, pyramid power, Rosswell, moon hoax, ...... the list is almost endless :rolleyes:

There are all these 'experts' out there that have studied all of the listed, and some of the experts claim all of these things are real or could be real...while others debunk the stuff...each and every one of them. They could all be real, all fake, one real, with the rest fake, etc.

But whenever consise tests or investigation methods are used, they invariably show nothing supernatural goes on.

Hmmm..why are there hyraglyphics (sp.) on cave walls that show what appear to be spacemen in space suits?, or hovering vehicles?

Or something else, possibilities for intpretations are endless....

There is a 'force' that is toying with our minds.

No.

It is the same 'force' that knew it would boggle reputed brainy people into trying to solve ....how can you have a finite circle circumference, with a finite diameter, and yet the formula (pi) which ratio formula between the two, is not a finite exact number be used to find the finite circumference???

How is that supposed to be a mystery?

Or, how is it that everything in the universe appears to come out of infinity, but yet wind up visibly as being finite????

Ehhh? Meaning what?

(example: Take a leaf on a tree. It is finite. It's edges are defined and end at the air around it. Yet, if you peer into the leave through a microscope, you will never find the center of the leave,

Of course you can define a center for a leaf, if you choose to do so. What are you getting at?

I don't think.

I think you are right there.

You will get to a point where you start splitting and splitting the makeup of an atom, a quark, a neutrino, till infinitim...maybe.

The mysteries of life are a blessing and a curse, at the same time. They are here, for our entertainment only. For all we know, all of life might be a 'reality' that doesn't even exist.

:rolleyes:

Hans

[Glory]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf


Interesting.

I believe in things that are unexplained as well. There is a small number (I believe 5%, don't quote me here) of UFO reports that remain unexplained. I don't think this even approaches the possibility that they are extraterrestrial spacecraft. I just accept that there's going to be things out there that no one can explain because of various circumstances. (Lack of data, poor reports, blurry photos.)

Or by "belief" do you indeed mean that you consider the unexplained residue of some paranormal claims might be truly unusual stuff? (Ghosts, psychics, aliens, etc, whatever...)

Definitely the former. There is a tremendous temptation, when faced with things unexplained, to assign extraordinary possibilities to myriad phenomena. I don't put a lot of emphasis on the woprd unexplained. People use it as evidence of things being unexplainable. I have found that it is far from an extraordinary event for me not to know or understand something. For instance, something hit my car while I was driving on the freeway. As I moved along at 65 mph I saw that the object was smaller than a bread box and grey in colour. That is all I know about it other than the fact that it was hard enough to demolish my head light when it collided with it at some speed higher than 65 mph. It was a ufo! I believe whole heartedly in the existence of this ufo but I do not think that there is anything extraterrestrial or super natural about the event or the object. Still, the event falls into the category of unexplained.

Glory

[Psi Baba]

When the crop circle thing started to become popularized, I noticed that of amongst all the chit-chat, one thing was noticeably absent--eyewitness accounts of crop circles forming. Surely someone somewhere had to see them forming, so this might provide clues to their origins (if indeed it was some sort of natural phenomenon). During one documentary, they introduced man who had supposedly witnessed the forming of a circle. "Finally," I thought. I waited with bated breath for his explanation. He started, "I knew something was wrong with the time continuum that day, because the shadows of those two trees were converging . . ." :mad: I nearly threw a shoe at the television! The first supposed eyewitness, and the guy's a nutbasket. I should have known. It was then I knew there were never going to be any witnesses because these things just didn't happen spontaneously (and they weren't being made by aliens).

There was one documentary by National Geographic in which they made a rather bold statement. They stated in no uncertain terms that they would have the mystery solved within a year. And they did.

[juryjone]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
They don't even name that "independent crop-circle investigator"? What a sorry excuse for journalism. We need to know on whom to heap ridicule.

It's me! juryjone, independent crop-circle investigator! (Imagine me standing in that Superman, truth-justice-and-the-american-way stance.)

Kinda like "Encyclopedia Brown, Boy Genius" or "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute".

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
The investigators are probably BLT Research:

http://www.bltresearch.com/

That's a crop circle? It's pathetic.What about the one in the lower left corner? Isn't that the avatar for The Artist Formerly Known As Prince?

[RonSceptic]

People still believe crop circles are made by aliens?

There is no hope for mankind.

:cry:

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
I think it's time for an e-mail to WDTN Channel 2 in Dayton.

I must be getting tired. I thought you wrote KDTN Channel 2 in Denton (http://www.kera.org/contactus/pressreleases/20030812KDTNsale.html), which the parent PBS station KERA 13 Dallas is selling to the Daystar Christian network. I can't tell you how happy I was to read that. :rolleyes:

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
People still believe crop circles are made by aliens?

There is no hope for mankind.
:cry:
Apparently the aliens are getting rather political: Giant swastika trampled into cornfield (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=9&u=/nm/20030915/od_nm/germany_swastika_dc)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
People still believe crop circles are made by aliens?

There is no hope for mankind.

:cry:

Oh, that's not the worst bit. There were real scientists who were so desperate to prove that these things were not made by aliens, that they spent months busting a gut trying to prove they were made by vertical whirlwinds and the like.

I'd believe in aliens with little green horns sooner than I'd credit some of the hypotheses they came up with. Nothing was dafter than the idea that these patterns weren't the work of an intelligence.

I just thought, here we are on Earth, which is the intelligent species most likely to have made them?

Rolfe.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
People still believe crop circles are made by aliens?

There is no hope for mankind.

:cry:

That's the press's fault, not the people themselves. Think about it:

People are exposed to supernatural theories for the origins of the crop circles.

They are saturated with the "fact" that science has "not been able" to explain them.

They are told repeatedly that the circles contain properties which make it "impossible" that they could've been made by "ordinary" humans.

Having no access to any counterarguments (when was the last time you saw a show debunking crop circles, and how publicized was it?), people naturally accept the alien conclusion because of the evidence they're exposed to. The lack of skeptical counterclaims provide the illusion that the alien hypothesis is the strongest. And many of these people are quite intelligent; they just don't care enough to go out and do the research themselves...and why should they? After all, the same people who expound the alien theory also assert that "they've always been here" with an attitude of nonchalance, transforming what (if true) should be an amazing, exciting, and profound discovery into a ho-hum "we knew all the time" minor circus attraction. So many believe, yet at the same time really don't care.

The key is not to lament on how "stupid" people are for not considering evidence they have no access to, but rather to provide that access. There needs to be more debunking on TV. It's the only way to reach them.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Rolfe

I just thought, here we are on Earth, which is the intelligent species most likely to have made them?

Rolfe.
Ooh, ooh, a riddle! Um... I guess we can rule out the dolphins in all case except 'seaweed circles'...

How about a hint?

[Blue Monk]

An independent crop-circle investigator....


An independent crop-circle investigator?

Is there any other kind?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Blue Monk

An independent crop-circle investigator?

Is there any other kind?
There are those affiliated with the aliens, whose job it is to throw people off track.

[Foodbunny]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Apparently the aliens are getting rather political: Giant swastika trampled into cornfield (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=9&u=/nm/20030915/od_nm/germany_swastika_dc)

The hooks on the cross actually pointed in the opposite direction to those on the swastika used by Adolf Hitler's Nazi party but it was still being treated as an illegal symbol.

Ah, what wacky hijynks will those aliens get up to next?

[Iamme]

Hans---You went through a lot of effort rebutting my post. I had the coutesy to read it all. But tell me this: CAN you get to the EXACT most center of the leaf, down to the most subatomic particle. That is what I'm getting at. The outer rim of the leaf stops at the atmosphere. But where does the makings of an atom stop. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe imatter gets smaller and smaller into infinitum, where, as once scientist has 'proven', that it finally spontaneosly appears out of nothingness.

Can I comment on the rest of your rebuttal? Not really, because I was questioning all the things I listed, myself. I am just not quite so sure that all these things HAVE been disproven, as you so claim. Who is it that claims Van Daniken doesn't know what he is talking about. Who's word speaks the truth?! For every person who disproves, there is somone else studying any of the listed things who thinks there just might be something to it. And a case in point: Joe Newman, from his 'Energy Machine' fame, had/has? something like 30 reputable Ph.D's in electo engineering and associated fields that stood behind his claims that his unbelievable machine which defies the laws of physics, actually works. They could be all wet. But for a layman like me, this poses great difficulty in having the truth assertained.

[tracer]

Funny you should mention Joseph Newman ... (http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/newman.htm)

(Some of the 30 reputable scientists and engineers who've endorsed Newman's energy machine have since recanted. Others simply cannot be found and may not even exist.)

[Loki]

lamme,

Who is it that claims Van Daniken doesn't know what he is talking about.
Sheesh...it's not that hard to find, you know : Von Daniken (http://www.debunker.com/texts/vondanik.html)

But if you're really concerned about "who to believe" then just buy and read "Gold of the Gods". Then come back and say you think Von Daniken is anything other than a total fraud who lies whenever necessary.

[jj]

Youngstown, Ohio.
I grew up there and then left.
Economic h***.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


That's the press's fault, not the people themselves. Think about it:

.......snip.......

The key is not to lament on how "stupid" people are for not considering evidence they have no access to, but rather to provide that access. There needs to be more debunking on TV. It's the only way to reach them.

I agree with you up to a point. The TV companies and magazines deliberately peddle the exotic and the bizarre. The truth is less attractive, and therefore less commercial.

I have seen one or two excellent programs debunking crop circles and other paranormal claims, but even when some attempt is made to address some aspect of the paranormal, as in the recent UK program on mediumship which featured James Randi, there is far too much fence sitting.

The fact is that nothing of any merit has ever been proven in relation most paranormal claims, and yet the program makers seem reluctant to question such claims forcefully and seem more concerned not to alienate any section of their audienc by taking sides.

Yes, it is dissapointing. But on the other hand people must surely take some responsibility for their own gullability? Is it really asking too much for people to questions some of the outlandish notions that they get presented with? After all, as someone once tellingly remarked, we are ALL sceptics on a used car lot!

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

People still believe crop circles are made by aliens?
Other "theories":
Transdimensional beings
Natural vortices
Government spooks


~~ Paul

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Other "theories":
Transdimensional beings
Natural vortices
Government spooks


~~ Paul


You forgot...

Time Travellers from the future.....:wink:

[Glory]

Originally posted by Iamme
Hans---You went through a lot of effort rebutting my post. I had the coutesy to read it all. But tell me this: CAN you get to the EXACT most center of the leaf, down to the most subatomic particle. That is what I'm getting at. The outer rim of the leaf stops at the atmosphere. But where does the makings of an atom stop. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe imatter gets smaller and smaller into infinitum, where, as once scientist has 'proven', that it finally spontaneosly appears out of nothingness.

Isn't the same true of all matter? Not just leaves? I am just trying to get this straight. You are speaking mainly about the nature of atoms and subatomic particles rather than the nature of leaves, yes? Doesn't this apparant paradox apply to space as well? The "one can never cross a room" problem reffers to the fact that one must always cross half the distance from one point to another as he travels. He can keep dividing the remaining distance in half and thus never quite make it from one spot to another. What you seem to be pointing out is a that we have not yet discovered the smallest particles of matter, we don't think. Has it been proven that there is anything but empty space at the center of the leaf? Or am I now just illustarting that I am not a physicist by any stretch of the imagination?

Glory

[Glory]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Other "theories":[list]
Transdimensional beings

These would still qualify as aliens.

Government spooks

Also probably aliens.;)

Glory

[jj]

Originally posted by Iamme
Hans---You went through a lot of effort rebutting my post. I had the coutesy to read it all. But tell me this: CAN you get to the EXACT most center of the leaf, down to the most subatomic particle. That is what I'm getting at. The outer rim of the leaf stops at the atmosphere. But where does the makings of an atom stop. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe imatter gets smaller and smaller into infinitum, where, as once scientist has 'proven', that it finally spontaneosly appears out of nothingness.


The center of the leaf is a mathematical construct. They can be exact.

Measuring the leaf, etc, are physical experiments. They have a margin of error.

Now, as to the "most subatomic particle", you need to study up on the meaning of Heisenburg Uncertainty.

[Iamme]

Glory---Yers...you are comprehending what I am getting at.

jj---My bad. Bad illustration by using the leaf. You are right, if you are finding the center of the leaf...on the 2d plane. Take any 3d object though. Like a ball. The outer edge meets the air. There is a definite place where material of ball ends and air begins. However, as you try to get to the most miniscule center of the ball, you may find, as Glory said...that you will be dividing halfs, till eternity. Perhaps. I guess we don't know yet if there is a certain point at which a subatomic particle can get no smaller, or, if it does keep getting smaller, and smaller, and smaller, and smaller...a pi thing...where you can't ever get to the end of it.

[jj]

Originally posted by Iamme
Glory---Yers...you are comprehending what I am getting at.

jj---My bad. Bad illustration by using the leaf. You are right, if you are finding the center of the leaf...on the 2d plane. Take any 3d object though. Like a ball. The outer edge meets the air. There is a definite place where material of ball ends and air begins. However, as you try to get to the most miniscule center of the ball, you may find, as Glory said...that you will be dividing halfs, till eternity. Perhaps. I guess we don't know yet if there is a certain point at which a subatomic particle can get no smaller, or, if it does keep getting smaller, and smaller, and smaller, and smaller...a pi thing...where you can't ever get to the end of it.

Still no problem, the question is in the measurement. 1d, 2d, 3d, except for error bars, all same.