Tibetan medicine

[JetLeg]

Hi,

Is anyone knowledgable here of tibetan medicine? Has anyone researched it?



I would be glad for an opinon - if you know of any skeptical podcast that adresses it, that would be great.


http://www.tibetan-medicine.org/

[PixyMisa]

From the site:
We promote the traditional Tibetan Medical System including Himalayan herbs, constitutional nutrition, cleansing, massage, right lifestyle, and Tibetan Astrology.
You don't need to read any further. It's nonsense.

[Blue Wode]

I would be glad for an opinon


From The Expanded Dictionary of Metaphysical Healthcare, Alternative Medicine, Paranormal Healing, and Related Methods...

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dictionary/md00.html

...under ‘Unnaturalistic Methods: T’ you’ll find this:


Tibetan herbal medicine: Tibetan herbalism. Its theory posits "humoural imbalances."

Tibetan medicine (Emchi): Buddhistic and largely allopathic system that stems from Ayurveda, Chinese medicine, and ancient Persian medicine. Tibetan medicine encompasses acupuncture and moxibustion and purportedly heals both the physical and the psychic "being." Its theory posits reincarnation, evil spirits, tutelary gods, and three physiological principles: "wind," "bile," and "phlegm." The terms "Tibetan medicine" and "Tibetan Buddhist Medicine" appear synonymous.

Tibetan Pulsing Healing (Tibetan Pulsing): Modern approach to an ancient Tibetan technique. It is a form of bodywork whose postulate is that sound and the pulse are usable to dissolve "blockages" in the nervous system. Its theory posits (a) a "`cool' healing fire" created by the heart, and (b) the hara, an alleged controller of the immune system wherein sexual "energy" often is "locked." Tibetan Pulsing includes a system of "eye-reading" whose purported design is to determine which organs need attention.

Tibetan Reiki: Variation of and extension to Reiki. Tibetan Reiki purportedly is of ancient Tibetan origin.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dictionary/mdt.html




Interesting letter from the Dalai Lama in the link you provided.

Snippet -


Tibetan medicine is deeply influenced by Buddhist practice and theory that stresses the indivisible interdependence of mind, body and vitality. As an integrated system of health care Tibetan medicine has served the Tibetan people well for many centuries and I believe can still provide much benefit to humanity at large. The difficulty we face in bringing this about is one of communication, for like other scientific systems, Tibetan medicine must be understood in its own terms, as well as in the context of objective investigation. I am therefore most encouraged to see that Men-Tsee-Khang, our principle institution preserving the traditions of Tibetan Medicine and Astrology, is launching its own website. I am confident that it will be of immense benefit to serious students of Tibetan Medicine, as well as providing an opportunity for the general public to better appreciate this valuable but sometimes overlooked aspect of the Tibetan cultural heritage.

http://www.tibetan-medicine.org/dalailama.asp




No doubt His Holiness has enjoyed a few cosy tête-à-têtes with Prince Charles.

[Physiotherapist]

There is a guy called Christopher Hansard who claimed to be a Master Physician of Tibetan Dur Bon Medicine and had a clinic - The Eden Clinic in the King's Road.

This clinic has now closed down and Hansard has been found to be a complete fraud.

[Henners]

From the site:

You don't need to read any further. It's nonsense.

You've never smoked Himalayan herbs, I take it?

[JetLeg]

There is a guy called Christopher Hansard who claimed to be a Master Physician of Tibetan Dur Bon Medicine and had a clinic - The Eden Clinic in the King's Road.

This clinic has now closed down and Hansard has been found to be a complete fraud.

Do you say that

A practioner of X is a fraud -> therefore X is not a valid discipline

?

There were frauds in western medicine as well.

[juniper_ann]

From the FAQ:
Tibetan Medicine: What is it?
Tibetan medicine is a science, art and philosophy that provides a holistic approach to health care. It is a science because its principles are enumerated in a systematic and logical framework based on an understanding of the body and its relationship to the environment. It is an art because it uses diagnostic techniques based on the creativity, insight, subtlety and compassion of the medical practitioner. And it is a philosophy because it embraces the key Buddhist principles of altruism, karma and ethics.

* * *

Tibetan medical theory states that everything in the universe is made up of the five proto-elements sa (Earth), chu (Water), me (Fire), rLung (Wind), and Nam-mkha (Space). Although all five proto-elements are responsible for the formation of each tissue cell, each element has a specific influence: sa exerts a greater influence over the formation of muscle cells, bones, the nose and the sense of smell; chu is responsible for the formation of blood, body fluids, tongue and the sense of taste; me is responsible for body temperature, comple-xion, the eyes and the sense of sight; rLung is responsible for breathing, skin and the sense of touch; and nam mkha is responsible for body ca-vities, the ears and the sense of hearing.

How exactly does medicine embrace karma? Do they just mean that the doctors are expected to treat you ethically so they don’t come back as a protozoan, or do they mean that if they aren’t successful it’s because you really deserve to get cancer?

Alchemy recognized fundamental elements like earth and water, but then alchemy evolved into chemistry, which has elements like those in the periodic table, because chemistry produces results and alchemy doesn’t.

This appears to be a medieval science based on a false understanding of the body, akin to Aristotle’s four humors. If traditional medicine is so great, why did people start living much longer, healthier lives after traditional western medicine was dumped in favor of the germ theory?

If the parts of the body can be traced back to these fundamental parts, then why doesn’t embryology reflect these parts? If muscle cells, the nose, and “sense of smell” are somehow fundamentally related, then why do muscle cells arise from the mesoderm and the lining of the nose arises from the ectoderm?

To quote from the Kaplan review for biology, the three embryological germ layers are:
ectoderm—integument (including the epidermis, hair, nails, and epithelium of the nose, mouth, and anal canal), the lens of the eye, and the nervous system.
endoderm—epithelial linings of the digestive and respiratory tracts (including the lungs), and parts of he liver, pancreas, thyroid, and bladder
mesoderm—musculoskeletal system, circulatory system, excretory system, gonads, connective tissue throughout the body, and portions of digestive and respiratory organs

And, further down the page of “Tibetan Medicine: What is it?”
Many disorders, caused by proliferation of bad blood and mKhris-pa are also treated by blood-letting at one of the body's seventy-seven blood-letting points. For cold disorders, nerve malfunction and non-malignant tumors, moxibustion, golden-needle therapy may be used to stimulate the energy channels of the body.

Blood-letting. Nice. Because there are so many illnesses that can be successfully treated with blood-letting.

The only one I know of is polycythmia vera:
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1850.htm
The prevalence of polycythemia vera is reported to be 4.9 cases per 100,000 people in Baltimore, Maryland.
The prevalence of polycythemia vera is reported to be 6.7 cases per 1,000,000 population in Israel.

Why would you even mention blood-letting if it has no use for greater than 99,995/100,000 people?

Oh, and we’re going to stimulate some non-measurable “energy channels” while we’re at it. Um, what form would this energy be in? Electrical? Kinetic? Chemical? Generic woo “energy”? And why does it matter if the needle is gold? Are you grounding the person?

My conclusion is don’t turn your back on evidence-based medicine just yet. It may be that some of the herbal medicine has some value, and it should certainly be investigated (in controlled animal studies, not just by dosing yourself and reporting back whether you lived), but the odds are against any particular treatment.

[JetLeg]

juniper_ann,

thanks for the answer.


What do you think about

http://www.snowlionpub.com/chapters/hefrso.htm

?


And about another quote (from Amazon book description)


Dhonden's introduction to Tibetan medicine originated as a series of lectures, and 15 percent of it consists of questions and answers. Dhonden stresses that the medicines of Tibet and China are radically different from Western medicine, and that after the Chinese Communist takeover of Tibet, the conquerors began making and selling Tibetan remedies elsewhere in Asia as their own. The image of the tree of medicine, with manifold trunks, branches, and leaves, provides the conceptual skeleton for Tibetan medicine. Other major concepts are that the body contains three humors and five elements that affect its problems and their treatments, and that the three primary causes of disease are attachment, hatred, and delusion. The four immeasurables (i.e., the good guys) in the Tibetan system are loving kindness, compassion, empathic joy, and equanimity. In addition to such systematic explanation, Dhonden touches on Tibetan ideas about the proper conduct of life, medical education, and medical ethics. William Beatty



The idea that one needs to take care of his mind, and not only of his body seems a very good one. Why does that slip underneath the carpets in western medicine?

Also, the idea of stressing ethical behaviour as important to one's health is a beautiful one. It will lead to good effects, in the society.

[ben m]

The idea that one needs to take care of his mind, and not only of his body seems a very good one. Why does that slip underneath the carpets in western medicine?

Sure it's a good idea. Western society doesn't ignore it at all ... "taking care of the mind" is the full-time concern of many Western psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, social workers, philosophers, musicians, writers, advice columnists, teachers, painters, crossword-puzzle-constructors, travel agents, and so on. The question is, why would we want these issues to be labeled "medicine"? Why would their care involve herbs, lines-of-energy, Qi, meridians, or harmonic vibrations?


Also, the idea of stressing ethical behaviour as important to one's health is a beautiful one. It will lead to good effects, in the society.

Again, ethical behavior may (or may not!) be important to one's health and almost certainly leads to good effects (as long as your definition of "ethical" lines up with your definition of "good effects"!) What does this have to do with Tibetan herbs, crystals, and so on? What does it have to do with medicine? These are standard ideas from philosophers all over the world.

[PixyMisa]

The idea that one needs to take care of his mind, and not only of his body seems a very good one. Why does that slip underneath the carpets in western medicine?
It doesn't.

Also, the idea of stressing ethical behaviour as important to one's health is a beautiful one.
It may be beautiful. Is it true, though?

It will lead to good effects, in the society.
Perhaps so. But tying it to utterly nonsensical medical practices is distinctly unethical.

[JetLeg]

Sure it's a good idea. Western society doesn't ignore it at all ... "taking care of the mind" is the full-time concern of many Western psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, social workers, philosophers, musicians, writers, advice columnists, teachers, painters, crossword-puzzle-constructors, travel agents, and so on. The question is, why would we want these issues to be labeled "medicine"? Why would their care involve herbs, lines-of-energy, Qi, meridians, or harmonic vibrations?



Again, ethical behavior may (or may not!) be important to one's health and almost certainly leads to good effects (as long as your definition of "ethical" lines up with your definition of "good effects"!) What does this have to do with Tibetan herbs, crystals, and so on? What does it have to do with medicine? These are standard ideas from philosophers all over the world.

The idea as far as I understand, that the mind and body are linked in specific ways. Certain types of behaviour lead to certain types of diseases. So, by attempting to cure (by meditation) specific types of emotional problems, and by enhancing one's ethical behaviour, specific types of diseases are supposed to be cured.

[CFLarsen]

Tibetan medicine is deeply influenced by Buddhist practice and theory that stresses the indivisible interdependence of mind, body and vitality.

Can anyone tell me what "vitality" is?

That will tell you why it is bunk. :)

[JetLeg]

Can anyone tell me what "vitality" is?

That will tell you why it is bunk. :)

Why does it show that it's bunk?

[CFLarsen]

Why does it show that it's bunk?

Can you tell me what is meant by "vitality"?

[JetLeg]

Can you tell me what is meant by "vitality"?

I don't know. Ask them.

[Mashuna]

The idea as far as I understand, that the mind and body are linked in specific ways. Certain types of behaviour lead to certain types of diseases. So, by attempting to cure (by meditation) specific types of emotional problems, and by enhancing one's ethical behaviour, specific types of diseases are supposed to be cured.

Where does it stand on germ theory?

[ben m]

The idea as far as I understand, that the mind and body are linked in specific ways. Certain types of behaviour lead to certain types of diseases. So, by attempting to cure (by meditation) specific types of emotional problems, and by enhancing one's ethical behaviour, specific types of diseases are supposed to be cured.

Stress is known to be related to high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease. How do we know? Because it turns up as a strong correlation in observational studies, and you can reproduce it in controlled studies. Mental 'exercise' (reading, puzzle-solving, etc.) is known to defend against Alzheimer's disease. How do we know? Because it turns up as a strong correlation in observations. (I don't think that controlled studies are possible.)

On the other hand, pancreatic cancer? Tuberculosis? Kidney stones? Not related to any mental state. How do we know? Because we can't find any correlation with mental states (no one has ever meditated away their TB) and we *can* find a non-mental phenomenon that explains the whole disease.

So: there's no general rule that all mental states cause diseases; there's no general rule that all diseases are caused by mental states; furthermore, there's no general rule that "When the Tibetans say that such-and-such state causes such-and-such disease, they are usually right, because their general principles are pure, ethical, and harmonized with nature". When it comes to a complex machine like the body, lots of simple principles break down. You can be pure, ethical, and harmonized with nature and still draw totally wrong conclusions about how things work. (We didn't need any philosophical principles to find out about the stress-blood pressure effect, or the mental activity-Alzheimer's effect.)

[CFLarsen]

I don't know. Ask them.

Vitalism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism)

[ben m]

Mental 'exercise' (reading, puzzle-solving, etc.) is known to defend against Alzheimer's disease.

I would also point out that this fact tempts us to draw woo-ish conclusions. Look, the cure is a mental practice rooted in age-old human wisdom! A positive, life-affirming, mental practice, which is intuitively "opposed" to the nature of the disease! Why, it's just what any good herbal-crystal practitioner would have recommended intuitively!

Such conclusions are, to say the least, unjustified; no amount of eye exercise will eliminate glaucoma, whose biochemical cause is similar that of Alzheimer's. There's simply no general principle to be drawn. Moreover, JetLeg keeps mentioning "ethical" connections to health; there are no ethical implications here. You could get your mental exercise, if you so desired, by doing smutty crosswords, doing arithmetic for the Mafia, or plotting to destroy the world.

[JetLeg]

Eh...

We all have some ability to observe our mental states, and try to correlate them with our physical state. For example, when we are afraid, we feel certain things in the stomach. I do, at least, and some of my friends. Now, I think that a person that has been trained in observation(mindfulness) meditation, and developed a better ability than us to observe his mental states, can find quite good correlations between mental states and physical conditions, thus bypassing the correlational studies. What do you think?



And, more specificaly, the following is an excrept from
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/tibetan_astrology_medicine/medicine/intro_tibetan_medicine.html

The author is a scholar of buddhism, but not an expert on tibetan medicine specificaly. Still, I'd be glad to hear your evalutation.

The three major systems are called wind, bile and phlegm.

....
....

If we want to overcome disease completely we have to become balanced on all levels, particularly on the emotional/mental level. There are three primary disturbing emotions or attitudes. The first is longing desire and attachment. It is the neurotic desire that feels I've got to get this and if I don't get it I'll go crazy. The second is anger. Third is naive closed-mindedness and stubbornness. These are correlated to the disorders of the three humors. From desire comes wind disorders; from anger, bile disorders; from closed-mindedness, phlegm disorders. This is very interesting. Let us look at it a little closer.

..
...
Wind disorders are very often characterized by becoming very nervous. They are related to high blood pressure. We also get a very tight feeling in the chest. We get what we describe as a broken heart; we feel terribly depressed. These are very common wind disorders associated with longing desire. For instance, if we are very attached to making a lot of money, we work and work, we get high blood pressure and we are nervous all the time. If we are very attached to someone and they die or leave us, we get the whole broken heart syndrome. People who meditate incorrectly and push themselves too hard also develop wind disorders. When we push ourselves too hard in anything, it squeezes the energies in the body and that causes the uptightness in the chest, nervousness, paranoia and so on. Nervous bowels or a nervous stomach are also a wind disorder. The underlying psychological cause for these problems is too much attachment or desire.

Bile disorders come from anger. An ulcer, where there is too much bile in the stomach, is associated with being very angry. When we get angry we turn red. The bile affects the pigmentation. We turn yellow with jaundice and red with anger. There are also bile headaches, which often come with anger: the eyes burn, the head burns.

Phlegm is related to being naive and closed-minded. We hold onto ideas very stubbornly and don't want to listen to anybody else. Or our hearts are closed to certain people because we don't want to deal with them. Just as our mind and heart are closed, our sinuses close and we have sinus problems or we get problems with our chest, like pneumonia, or asthma, or the body becomes closed and stiff with arthritis or rheumatism. The body reflects the mind's inflexibility.