Mental illness question

[shalomsteph]

I am asking this as a legitimate question. Here is some background.

My sister had a normal, middle class childhood. She is the youngest of three children. I am the next oldest, and I am six years older, so she was an only child through Jr High and High School, more or less. Being the youngest, and the only one at home, she also benefited the most financially from my mom finishing her advanced degree. She HAD more than the rest of us did at her age. I am not sure if that matters or not. We were raised liberal Democrat free thinkers.

She married her first husband right out of college. She had a degree in teaching, he was an electrician. Since his job was more flexible, they went where she could get employment. They overspent, mostly on Home Shopping Network and their duplex. (My sister refused to live in an apartment.) They moved back to the midwest after a few years and while she was pregnant with baby #1. She had secured a teaching position and he also found employment shortly after. Due to the change in housing prices, they were able to buy a house. It was looking up!

All is fine for awhile. Both are working, baby is born. My dad gives them a boat as a baby present. (He gave us a used car...no worries..) They sell the boat almost immediately to pay bills. They have a second baby and a second mortgage. When the baby is a few months old, my sister begins an internet affair with a man in Kansas. He is wealthy, has no children, and promises her the moon.

So....she divorces her husband (who is depressed and torn up about it) and takes her toddler and newborn to Kansas, where she quickly married Kansas man. She completely changes her personality to please him. She bible thumps, hates gay people, wants a (gulp) amendment to the Constitution to make the US a Christian nation, believes women should be subservient to men, stops teaching (which she loves) lets him control all of the money, starts corporal punishment with her children, and checks her weight daily. Soon, I can no longer be in her home. He has been successful in isolating her from everyone and everything she loves. The kids no longer see their dad, because he makes it very difficult (and their dad is a passive guy).

Fast forward...they move to Wisconsin, a community property state. My sister has been married three years at that point. She knows she wants to divorce him AND it is DAMAGING her children, BUT she wants to stick it out the five years, to maximize her community property gain. (She calls me when he isn't around, etc) I told her to screw community property, she has a marketable degree and a brain, get the hell out. Nope, she stays, to the detriment of her kids. She says her kids will recover, etc.

On the night of her divorce, in June, she went on a date. She is now living with this guy. He is alone with the kids, picking them up from school, completely involved. I told her to SLOW DOWN....the kids need a break from her men, and she told me to just be happy for her or shut up. Last night was kind of the final straw. She told me she had to bring her daughter's 6 year old cat (she has had the cat since she was one year old) to the pound because the new guy had allergies. I asked her what in the hell was wrong with her? She said her daughter just wouldn't shut up about the cat. It was just a cat! And people are more important! I explained, calmly, that the cat has always been there--it was consistent. She loves the cat. Maybe the boyfriend can take Allegra? He will be replaced soon enough....but the cat has many more years left!

So...does she have a mental illness that medication would help? Or is she just selfish? Or is she normal?

Oh-she is 36 years old, and her kiddos are 10 and 7. Her last marriage was 6 years and her first marriage was 5 years.

[Apathia]

Alas!
There is no medication for this. All those behaviors are almost the norm.
Standard American Consumerism.

[a_unique_person]

So...does she have a mental illness that medication would help? Or is she just selfish? Or is she normal?

Oh-she is 36 years old, and her kiddos are 10 and 7. Her last marriage was 6 years and her first marriage was 5 years.


Some people are like that, apparently. I was talking to someone the other day, and his son is only 36, has just been kicked out of home, and has eight children from three relationships.

[shalomsteph]

Some people are like that, apparently. I was talking to someone the other day, and his son is only 36, has just been kicked out of home, and has eight children from three relationships.

If he had money, he and my sister would be the perfect couple!

I always wonder why women keep having children with these men?

[Slimething]

I don't think she's mentally ill. Merely self-centered and confused. Alas, poor kids and poor shalomsteph! And, poor cat. Can't she give the cat to someone instead of saccing it? Really, what she's doing is beyond the pale. :covereyes

[kellyb]

How sad.
Nothing you've described leads me to believe she has any kind of illness there's a medication for. Then again, I'm not a doctor, so who knows?
Sounds like she's got a bad case of the "poor life skills".

[Kaylee]

Possibly Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?


Per this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder):
At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD ):
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people

4. requires excessive admiration
5. strong sense of entitlement
6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
9. arrogant affect.

(see also full list in DSM-IV-TR, p. 717) I'm basing my hunch not only on your OP, but also on another post you had made. IIRC, you said your sister is planning on taking her ex to court to increase the amount of child support she gets because he had decided to take on a second job so his current wife can spend more time with their very ill child. That is pretty much over the top behavior in my book, and seems to demonstrate items 5, 6, 7, 9 and possibly more from the above list.

Even if she doesn’t have NPD it seems to me that her sense of “boundaries” is not within the norm. But if she doesn’t see it as a problem, I don’t know if anything can be done about it.

I agree with kellyb, it's sad. Her approach to life is obviously taking a big toll on other people in her life and I would bet that her children are at risk at becoming like her by the time they become adults also. :(

ETA: I don't know if NPD is typically treated with medicine. IANAP, just another person who has to encounter difficult people in my life too ...

[a_unique_person]

Damn I hate those things. OK, so I've got NPD. You're all just jealous of me anyway.

[Dancing David]

I am asking this as a legitimate question. Here is some background.

My sister had a normal, middle class childhood. She is the youngest of three children. I am the next oldest, and I am six years older, so she was an only child through Jr High and High School, more or less. Being the youngest, and the only one at home, she also benefited the most financially from my mom finishing her advanced degree. She HAD more than the rest of us did at her age. I am not sure if that matters or not. We were raised liberal Democrat free thinkers.

She married her first husband right out of college. She had a degree in teaching, he was an electrician. Since his job was more flexible, they went where she could get employment. They overspent, mostly on Home Shopping Network and their duplex. (My sister refused to live in an apartment.) They moved back to the midwest after a few years and while she was pregnant with baby #1. She had secured a teaching position and he also found employment shortly after. Due to the change in housing prices, they were able to buy a house. It was looking up!

All is fine for awhile. Both are working, baby is born. My dad gives them a boat as a baby present. (He gave us a used car...no worries..) They sell the boat almost immediately to pay bills. They have a second baby and a second mortgage. When the baby is a few months old, my sister begins an internet affair with a man in Kansas. He is wealthy, has no children, and promises her the moon.

So....she divorces her husband (who is depressed and torn up about it) and takes her toddler and newborn to Kansas, where she quickly married Kansas man. She completely changes her personality to please him. She bible thumps, hates gay people, wants a (gulp) amendment to the Constitution to make the US a Christian nation, believes women should be subservient to men, stops teaching (which she loves) lets him control all of the money, starts corporal punishment with her children, and checks her weight daily. Soon, I can no longer be in her home. He has been successful in isolating her from everyone and everything she loves. The kids no longer see their dad, because he makes it very difficult (and their dad is a passive guy).

Fast forward...they move to Wisconsin, a community property state. My sister has been married three years at that point. She knows she wants to divorce him AND it is DAMAGING her children, BUT she wants to stick it out the five years, to maximize her community property gain. (She calls me when he isn't around, etc) I told her to screw community property, she has a marketable degree and a brain, get the hell out. Nope, she stays, to the detriment of her kids. She says her kids will recover, etc.

On the night of her divorce, in June, she went on a date. She is now living with this guy. He is alone with the kids, picking them up from school, completely involved. I told her to SLOW DOWN....the kids need a break from her men, and she told me to just be happy for her or shut up. Last night was kind of the final straw. She told me she had to bring her daughter's 6 year old cat (she has had the cat since she was one year old) to the pound because the new guy had allergies. I asked her what in the hell was wrong with her? She said her daughter just wouldn't shut up about the cat. It was just a cat! And people are more important! I explained, calmly, that the cat has always been there--it was consistent. She loves the cat. Maybe the boyfriend can take Allegra? He will be replaced soon enough....but the cat has many more years left!

So...does she have a mental illness that medication would help? Or is she just selfish? Or is she normal?

Oh-she is 36 years old, and her kiddos are 10 and 7. Her last marriage was 6 years and her first marriage was 5 years.


The things losted here would not be signs of a mental illness, although there might be one present. Mental illness is a biological condition that effects the moods and thoughts of people.

Many people make poor choices that don't have a mental illness. There are many issue that are pary of mental health and they could all be in play. Many people focus on their relatiohips to the detriment of their children.

[Dancing David]

Possibly Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?


Per this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder):
I'm basing my hunch not only on your OP, but also on another post you had made. IIRC, you said your sister is planning on taking her ex to court to increase the amount of child support she gets because he had decided to take on a second job so his current wife can spend more time with their very ill child. That is pretty much over the top behavior in my book, and seems to demonstrate items 5, 6, 7, 9 and possibly more from the above list.

Even if she doesn’t have NPD it seems to me that her sense of “boundaries” is not within the norm. But if she doesn’t see it as a problem, I don’t know if anything can be done about it.

I agree with kellyb, it's sad. Her approach to life is obviously taking a big toll on other people in her life and I would bet that her children are at risk at becoming like her by the time they become adults also. :(

ETA: I don't know if NPD is typically treated with medicine. IANAP, just another person who has to encounter difficult people in my life too ...

IANAP but it is a little early to pull out the Axis II. her life has not crashed and burned yet. many people make weird choices to the detriment of their children.

[Cuddles]

Damn I hate those things. OK, so I've got NPD. You're all just jealous of me anyway.

Why would I be jealous? My superiority complex is better than yours.

[Mozybyte]

Fact... Sanity is mental illness in denial.
It is not so much that She has a definable condition but most probably several, it would be foolish to attempt to identify any of them by the OP alone.
We are all mentally Ill, to what degree and which conditions needs more comprehensive investigation.
Successful diagnosis is never assured even with much observation. Psychiatry is primarily a "Drug Pushing" business often conducted by individuals with more problems than their patients, looking for resolution for themselves and deluded in grandeur as to their competence. More often than not they do more harm than good, let alone ourselves what we could dare see or do here, on the basis of limited second hand information.
But if I may say, on the surface sounds just like any other regular American, seriously Insane. But because you didn't mention any affliction towards gun tooting, she may actually not be too bad.

[Dancing David]

Fact... Sanity is mental illness in denial.
It is not so much that She has a definable condition but most probably several, it would be foolish to attempt to identify any of them by the OP alone.
We are all mentally Ill, to what degree and which conditions needs more comprehensive investigation.

Oh that is so obvious isn't it. Thanks for living in the past when they just chained mentally ill people to the bed or burned them as witches.

Successful diagnosis is never assured even with much observation. Psychiatry is primarily a "Drug Pushing" business often conducted by individuals with more problems than their patients, looking for resolution for themselves and deluded in grandeur as to their competence.

Thanks for your judging of a whole series of professional based upon your limited sample.

More often than not they do more harm than good, let alone ourselves what we could dare see or do here, on the basis of limited second hand information.

Uh huh and I am also supposed to believe that god made the world on the same limited knowledge and ignorance that you are spouting.

But if I may say, on the surface sounds just like any other regular American, seriously Insane. But because you didn't mention any affliction towards gun tooting, she may actually not be too bad.

Wow, thanks for the rant.

Your obvious prejudice is most likely based upon a lack of knowledge and understanding.

How many United Statesers do you know?

How many psychiatrists do you know?

How many people living with schizophrenia do you know?

How many people living with depression do you know?

How many people living with anxiety do you know?

How many people living with bipolar disorder do you know?

Have you ever actually been to a mental health center or facility, do you actually have any basis for your statements or do you just suck up the outdated theories of Szasz and others who just don't give a crap about people killing themselves?

[Slimething]

Successful diagnosis is never assured even with much observation. Psychiatry is primarily a "Drug Pushing" business often conducted by individuals with more problems than their patients, looking for resolution for themselves and deluded in grandeur as to their competence. More often than not they do more harm than good, let alone ourselves what we could dare see or do here, on the basis of limited second hand information.

Shalomsteph, if your sister ever says anything like the above to you, then I would get her to a psych immediately. Whether the excuse for the above opinion is ignorance, paranoia or scientology, the net results are the same: continued suffering for everyone.

[JoeEllison]

Yeah, I was thinking personality disorder... years of therapy is just about the only fix if that is her problem.

[Kaylee]

IANAP but it is a little early to pull out the Axis II. her life has not crashed and burned yet. many people make weird choices to the detriment of their children.

Does one have to really crash and burn before being considered an NPD?

Seems to me that some people with certain types of personality disorders would be more likely to tip other people's lives into the crash and burn category before they do that to themselves!

[Kaylee]

Damn I hate those things. OK, so I've got NPD. You're all just jealous of me anyway.

Why would I be jealous? My superiority complex is better than yours.

:D

[shalomsteph]

Yeah, I was thinking personality disorder... years of therapy is just about the only fix if that is her problem.

Well, then, we will all just have to deal with her craziness in order to have contact with her beautiful, sweet children. She refuses to see a therapist because there is "nothing wrong with her. She is HAPPY!!!"

For the cat lovers like myself: My mom is taking the cat. She convinced my sister to keep the cat until this weekend so she can take it. Then her daughter can still visit the cat when she visits grandma and grandpa and the cat will be spoiled rotten. So, the cat has been rescued. I thought it had already been given to the pound, but apparently it was going when the kids were at school today, so now the cat is ok.

I was actually thinking along the line of NPD. She teaches high school and seems somehow stuck in the same mind set as a 16 year old at times. She is ANGRY that her ex had another child with his second wife, EVEN THOUGH his vasectomy reversed--a true accident. As someone mentioned earlier, he is working a second job so his wife can stay home, because their daughter has cystic fibrosis. Yes, she is JEALOUS that he has a daughter who has Cystic Fibrosis. My god, my heart would be broken in a million pieces if the father of my children had a child with a life threatening condition. Instead, her attitude is, "Well, he is earning more money, so I am going for an increase in child support. I couldn't get it when his wife was working." That is just WRONG. Never mind that she just got half of her 2nd husband's assets, including his 401k, Pension plan, savings accounts and property he had BEFORE marriage, she now wants more child support.

I can't believe we are related sometimes.

[Kaylee]

:(

I feel very sorry for your neice and nephew (?). But they are lucky in the aunt and grandparents division :), so hopefully they will turn out OK.

Good luck.

[shalomsteph]

:(

I feel very sorry for your neice and nephew (?). But they are lucky in the aunt and grandparents division :), so hopefully they will turn out OK.

Good luck.

Yep, she has a son and a daughter. They are, for the moment, great kids. When she came for a visit with the kids, she basically dumped the kids with the parents and went out partying with her friends. She claims this is all because she is a very "social" person.

Sorry to be venting here, but I am just so frustrated. I have pretty much begged her to move here, as I work from home and could be with her kids anytime, but she has her new lover now and is unwilling to move. I bit my tongue on, "There are losers in Kansas City, too..."

[Slimething]

Yep, she has a son and a daughter. They are, for the moment, great kids. When she came for a visit with the kids, she basically dumped the kids with the parents and went out partying with her friends. She claims this is all because she is a very "social" person.

Sorry to be venting here, but I am just so frustrated. I have pretty much begged her to move here, as I work from home and could be with her kids anytime, but she has her new lover now and is unwilling to move. I bit my tongue on, "There are losers in Kansas City, too..."

Really, someone responsible should be raising those kids. I get the feeling she's keeping them with her as a perverse form of leverage. I also get the feeling that her first husband is a wimp. I wouldn't let my kids be taken away and used like this, legal fees be damned. I doubt that you should want her living anywhere near you.

Maybe, this newer, subtler form of therapy would help her: :hit:

Other than that, you're better off without that jerk boyfriend. There are better men out there, believe me. (I am one. :blush:) And, you saved a cat and that puts you in my A-1+++ list.

Do your best but be happy.

[Safe-Keeper]

My advice is to not ask us, but to ask someone who actually is a doctor, therapist or psychiatrist. Or someone else who has this as their field of profession. Although of course some posters here may.

[shalomsteph]

My advice is to not ask us, but to ask someone who actually is a doctor, therapist or psychiatrist. Or someone else who has this as their field of profession. Although of course some posters here may.

Professionals will not diagnose unless they have met the person. The person, in this case, is happy and thinks she has no problem. It is everyone else who has the problem. So, I am just trying to figure out if it is me or what...

[graphicsguy]

As someone who suffered with a mental illness for years I am of the opinion that she does not have one....buuuuut I could be wrong. In my case I always felt like there was something wrong with me because I felt like I was never in control of my thoughts or emotions and I always wanted to "be better."

If your sister never thinks there's anything wrong with her she will never do anything to "fix" herself. Mental illness or not, you have to change your way of thinking before you can change the things you do. With mental illness medication offers the ability to change that thinking.

[Dancing David]

Does one have to really crash and burn before being considered an NPD?

Seems to me that some people with certain types of personality disorders would be more likely to tip other people's lives into the crash and burn category before they do that to themselves!

I have a lot of issues with the Axiz II and diagnosis of them (IANAP), first off you are not to asses an Axis II in the precense of an Axix I, so the boderline personality who has post traumatic stress is a no-no, and it happens all the time psychiatrists diagnose someone with Axis II while they still have symptoms of a mental illness. And that is an automatic rule out for Axis II.

Then by the criteria of the DSM you are supposed to have a substantial impairment of functioning in a certain number of life domains. So be unable to function at work, home, relationships or school. And the whole debate over substantial impairment.

So the assesment of Axis II occurs way too often.

[Dancing David]

Well, then, we will all just have to deal with her craziness in order to have contact with her beautiful, sweet children. She refuses to see a therapist because there is "nothing wrong with her. She is HAPPY!!!"

For the cat lovers like myself: My mom is taking the cat. She convinced my sister to keep the cat until this weekend so she can take it. Then her daughter can still visit the cat when she visits grandma and grandpa and the cat will be spoiled rotten. So, the cat has been rescued. I thought it had already been given to the pound, but apparently it was going when the kids were at school today, so now the cat is ok.

I was actually thinking along the line of NPD. She teaches high school and seems somehow stuck in the same mind set as a 16 year old at times. She is ANGRY that her ex had another child with his second wife, EVEN THOUGH his vasectomy reversed--a true accident. As someone mentioned earlier, he is working a second job so his wife can stay home, because their daughter has cystic fibrosis. Yes, she is JEALOUS that he has a daughter who has Cystic Fibrosis. My god, my heart would be broken in a million pieces if the father of my children had a child with a life threatening condition. Instead, her attitude is, "Well, he is earning more money, so I am going for an increase in child support. I couldn't get it when his wife was working." That is just WRONG. Never mind that she just got half of her 2nd husband's assets, including his 401k, Pension plan, savings accounts and property he had BEFORE marriage, she now wants more child support.

I can't believe we are related sometimes.


I would consider a lot of other things before a personality disorder.

a. medical conditions
b. mental illness ( a medical condition)

[phaed]

There's no medication for that, but she might benefit from some therapy concerning her dependency problems.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Man, I know a woman just like that. She is smart and beautiful, but she is now working on her 3rd divorce. Her credit is a mess. She simply cannot not have a man in her life. It isn't a sex thing, it is as if she can't stand not being in a relationship. She builds each guy up in her mind to be Prince Charming and then becomes disillusioned by reality. She's pretty easy on the eyes but she is a serial trainwreck. She uses up her friendships as she is constantly trying to improve her short-term situation, and can't understand how she keeps losing in the long-term.

[shalomsteph]

Man, I know a woman just like that. She is smart and beautiful, but she is now working on her 3rd divorce. Her credit is a mess. She simply cannot not have a man in her life. It isn't a sex thing, it is as if she can't stand not being in a relationship. She builds each guy up in her mind to be Prince Charming and then becomes disillusioned by reality. She's pretty easy on the eyes but she is a serial trainwreck. She uses up her friendships as she is constantly trying to improve her short-term situation, and can't understand how she keeps losing in the long-term.

That's her, except each man is wealthier than the last, so her credit is perfect now. She is stunningly attractive, but at 36, she doesn't have many good years left. I know she is planning on getting some plastic surgery done in the future, when the rich men no longer flock.

Maybe what I am asking is not what her problem is, but how we, as a family of ethical people, deal with her? I love my niece and nephew and want to have contact. She has made it clear that the magic words are, "Congratulations, I am so happy for you!"

I can't say it. Even my cold-blooded atheist self can't say it....;)

[ponderingturtle]

Yep, she has a son and a daughter. They are, for the moment, great kids. When she came for a visit with the kids, she basically dumped the kids with the parents and went out partying with her friends. She claims this is all because she is a very "social" person.


Is that a bad thing? More time with more reasonable members of the family might well be very good for them, at least compared to spending more time with their mother.

[ponderingturtle]

Maybe, this newer, subtler form of therapy would help her: :hit:


Phrenological modification is just what the doctor ordered

[sophia8]

My advice? Forget her and concentrate on the kids.
She's chosen her life, she's old enough to have some insight. She might possibly have bi-polar, but if so, she still has to acknowledge that she needs treatment. Frankly, it sounds like you've tried and tried with her, and she just won't listen. It's going to hurt, but stop wasting your energies on her.
Her kids need all the help you can give them. Make sure they know they have a lifeline with you and their grandparents and can talk to any of you any time. When they get dumped on you, show them what normal family life is like. That's worth more than any amount of presents and it will give them some sense of consistency and stability.
And though I'm not fond of pets myself, good for you for saving the cat.

[Cainkane1]

Yes she had a mental illness..Possibly a form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

[That_guy]

My sister sounds quite similar to yours, and she's been diagnosed with various conditions (borderline personality, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia) by various doctors. Each successive doctor disagreed with the previous diagnosis and re-diagnosed her. In other words, it seems even doctors have a hard time deciding what the root issue is in some cases-- or even if there is one.

In any case, painful as it may be, sometimes we need to divorce ourselves from those family members who seem determined to destroy their own lives before they take us with them.

[Loss Leader]

So...does she have a mental illness that medication would help? Or is she just selfish? Or is she normal?



I'm not a doctor but I'm a divorce lawyer which allows me to see all manner of living conditions and mental illnesses.

It doesn't look to me like your sister has a diagnosable illness. She's functioning well enough and she herself isn't upset with her life.

That being said, she could probably benefit from therapy. For some reason, she has some pretty bad self-esteem issues that are keeping her in these relationships. She needs to trust her ability to be alone with herself.

As to how to get her to therapy if she doesn't want to go, I don't know if that's really possible.

[Rob Lister]

Not being a doctor, I cant say for sure but it appears that shalomsteph has the odd issues

[RenaissanceBiker]

That's her, except each man is wealthier than the last, so her credit is perfect now.

This one is impressed by wealth, but that is not what drives her. She honestly just wants to find someone who will make her happy. The Mrs. and I have told her that she has to make herself happy. She keeps looking for it in others.

Maybe what I am asking is not what her problem is, but how we, as a family of ethical people, deal with her? I love my niece and nephew and want to have contact.

We finally had to just take a step back and watch things from afar. In one of her most spectacular train wrecks, she kept asking for our advise. We would give it to her, she would agree in principal, then ignore it when it could have really helped. Afterwards she said, "I wish I had done everything you said." Guess what happened the next time?

If she were a football coach, she would call the hail mary pass on every down.

Her: "That didn't work. What do you think I should do next time?"
Me: "Mix a few running plays with a few screen passes. Just try to get a first down, then another."
Her: "You are right. That is the best plan. Oh! we got the ball back! HAIL MARY PASS!"

Stay friends with her, but maintain a certain detachment. She is responsible for her happiness and you are responsible for yours.

[Kaylee]

Does one have to really crash and burn before being considered an NPD?

Seems to me that some people with certain types of personality disorders would be more likely to tip other people's lives into the crash and burn category before they do that to themselves!

I have a lot of issues with the Axiz II and diagnosis of them (IANAP), first off you are not to asses an Axis II in the precense of an Axix I, so the boderline personality who has post traumatic stress is a no-no, and it happens all the time psychiatrists diagnose someone with Axis II while they still have symptoms of a mental illness. And that is an automatic rule out for Axis II.

Then by the criteria of the DSM you are supposed to have a substantial impairment of functioning in a certain number of life domains. So be unable to function at work, home, relationships or school. And the whole debate over substantial impairment.

So the assesment of Axis II occurs way too often.

Well you might not be a psychiatrist but you are much more familiar with the DSM than I am and your posts have sent me to the search engines. :) I think I have a slightly better understanding of what the DSM is about now, so thank you!

I don’t have first hand experience with psychological care. However, if the apts are as rushed and hurried as some of the physicals I've received I can easily understand how many people would end up being misdiagnosed.

I think the DSM, in addition to being a tool for the professionals, can serve as a resource to nonprofessionals to help define what society norms are. FWIW, the norms don’t seem to be only determined by the professionals; the classic example of how homosexuality has been first included and then later excluded in the DSM seems to demonstrate that society's expectations play a very large role also.

I have no training in this area but it’s difficult for me to believe that people must crash and burn in more than one of life domains in order to be diagnosed with a personality disorder. By the nature of these disorders (particularly some of the ones categorized in Axis 2), I would think the definition to be realistic could be loosened to say that they either cause themselves or significant numbers of people whose lives are intertwined with theirs to crash and burn.




ETA: I don't think it was ever justified to include homosexuality in the DSM.


However given how destructive some people are to others it seems that it can be justified to classify some very "selfish and mean" people as NPD or APD (antisocial personality disorder) even if their disorders don't cause their own lives to crash and burn. In addition to the specific items listed under each disorders, I suspect the severity of the particular items are taken into account.


For example even the best of us can be unsympathetic or jealous on some days. That doesn't mean that traits 6 & 7 listed in my above post aren't useful in deciding if someone has NPD. If I forget to inquire about my neighbor's health after they had a bad cold for a few weeks, that obviously doesn't make me an NPD. Shalomsteph's sister going after her ex's for more child support when he only took on a second job to help take care of a very ill child has a good chance being a qualifying trait. And if Shalomsteph should win, that won't bring havoc into her life, but she'll end up being an extremely destructive force in at least 3 other people's lives.

[Dancing David]

I agree that the categorization of the traits can be useful. But they also can generate a huge amount of stigma and preconceived notions. There are so many reasons that people can engage in the behavior that Shalomsteph describes, and they are very nornal human traits.

How many soccer parents overschedule their children, how many parents are compulsive overworkers and never see their kids. I am not saying that the PDs are conveinient ways to categorise stuff, just that very often the style of personal interaction (the key to a personality disorder) is not the root cause. Some people can be selfish for many reasons. In narcissicism there is a strange tendency to put themselves at the center of every picture, I have a sister in lot (wife's exhusband's sister) who does enegage in veru narcissitic behavior , all the time, she like demanded her husband pay for riding lessons (when he had a middle class job and two kids) and the usual plethora of keeping up with the Jones, but she has always maintained a living situation, has friendships and a job, she got through school. So does it really impact her life, sure, but does it impairs her functionsing? I am not so sure. (She also very hypomanic most of the time)

[The Painter]

We were raised liberal Democrat free thinkers.

There's your problem. ;)


No resonsibilities. It doesn't seem she is held responsible for anything now. She's a self centered piece of (you know). If you think she is messed up, wait until you see how her kids grow up.


PS. Why don't you take the cat?

[RenaissanceBiker]

By some bizarre coincidence I ended up with this chick's cat as well. It didn't make her as happy as she thought it would. Now it makes me unhappy. My kids like it though.

[stevea]

My question; is the prevalence of such financial irresponsibility the sign of some sort of mental defect ? I really cannot understand what sort of (il)logic causes people to voluntarily spend beyond their means. Yes I can empathize with people who suffer a financial crisis due to a natual disaster or a medical problem or even a business downturn, but to spend oneself into debt via QVC or ebay or on-line gambling isn't close to rational behaviour. Are these people expecting others to support them, to enable their behaviour ?

Yes, I would say that the sister in this case might benefit from counseling and perhaps even a pharmaceutical aid. There are elements to this story that suggest bipolar disease, tho' a lot more information would be needed to make that case. Her lack of empathy wrt the children's pet cat frightens me as regards the childrens safety and environment. Something is obviously wrong here, but only shalomsteph has the 1st hand experience to judge how far wrong things are currently.

[Dancing David]

There's your problem. ;)


No resonsibilities. It doesn't seem she is held responsible for anything now. She's a self centered piece of (you know). If you think she is messed up, wait until you see how her kids grow up.


PS. Why don't you take the cat?


Now that’s your problem ( ;) ), both my parents were liberal democrats (after Nixon before that they were independent) and I was raised in the alleged 'era of permissiveness', being born in 1958. gee I had to clean my room, maintain a B+ average in school and do my own laundry.

I wonder where you get your information on 'liberal' parents. It sort of sounds like the ‘blame Spock’ talking points.

[Dancing David]

My question; is the prevalence of such financial irresponsibility the sign of some sort of mental defect ?

No, there are social, cultural and personal issue as well. Some people will have a mental illness and some won't.

[Cuddles]

My question; is the prevalence of such financial irresponsibility the sign of some sort of mental defect?

Given the state of the average Briton's (not sure about other countries, but I have a feeling they're similar) finance, the mental disorder is actually in looking after your money. Far more people spend what they don't have and then complain about debt than actually look after their money. I suppose this could be seen as a mental defect, but it can hardly be classed as any kind of disorder or medical condition, since it seems to be the majority behaviour.

[The Painter]

Now that’s your problem ( ;) ), both my parents were liberal democrats (after Nixon before that they were independent) and I was raised in the alleged 'era of permissiveness', being born in 1958. gee I had to clean my room, maintain a B+ average in school and do my own laundry.

I wonder where you get your information on 'liberal' parents. It sort of sounds like the ‘blame Spock’ talking points.

Did you see this...;)

That means it's a joke. Lighten up, Francis

[Slimething]

My question; is the prevalence of such financial irresponsibility the sign of some sort of mental defect ?

Up to now, I've chalked that up to a societal malaise caused by advertising (to be successful, you must have THIS!!!). I can be persuaded to change my views, though. Is financial irresponsibility a psychological disorder or merely bad training/ low resistance to suggestion?

ETA: Welcome to the Forum!

[shalomsteph]

There's your problem. ;


PS. Why don't you take the cat?

My mom stepped in first, and we would have had to re-home her. We already have a Border Collie, a Pomeranian and a cat who have "found us" through the years, and we have a small house. So yes, I would have taken the cat, but I would have had to find her a new home. My mom taking the cat is MUCH better, because she can keep her.

[Dancing David]

Did you see this...;)

That means it's a joke. Lighten up, Francis


I guess you didn't see mine either

:P

[Kaylee]

I agree that the categorization of the traits can be useful. But they also can generate a huge amount of stigma and preconceived notions. There are so many reasons that people can engage in the behavior that Shalomsteph describes, and they are very nornal human traits.

How many soccer parents overschedule their children, how many parents are compulsive overworkers and never see their kids. I am not saying that the PDs are conveinient ways to categorise stuff, just that very often the style of personal interaction (the key to a personality disorder) is not the root cause. Some people can be selfish for many reasons. In narcissicism there is a strange tendency to put themselves at the center of every picture, I have a sister in lot (wife's exhusband's sister) who does enegage in veru narcissitic behavior , all the time, she like demanded her husband pay for riding lessons (when he had a middle class job and two kids) and the usual plethora of keeping up with the Jones, but she has always maintained a living situation, has friendships and a job, she got through school. So does it really impact her life, sure, but does it impairs her functionsing? I am not so sure. (She also very hypomanic most of the time)


I also have a few relatives that may be NPDs – I’m not sure. To be honest I do my best to avoid them!

For the most part, during most of their lives in many areas of their lives they functioned well. The toll was taken on the other people in their lives.

Hmm, just thinking that by the very nature of their disorder, most people with NPD or APD are not going to ask for counseling.

Some people that are forced to deal with the NPD and APDs in their lives could probably use some life skills coaching though.

ETA: Shalomsteph, please don’t interpret this as a sneaky comment about you. Speaking for myself, I know that I have asked for a lot of advice on how to deal with my difficult relatives, and was glad to get it when I could.