Why Can't They Figure it Out?

[LostAngeles]

(BTW Have I run the joke into the ground yet?)

[Tokenconservative]

I'd still like to know how you know I'm a liberal or what my thoughts are on anything.

Edit: Not to mention, read your own words again and see that you did equate an ethnicity with illegal immigration.

Simple: I read what you say, compare it to liberal, conservative and "other" political ideologies and arrive at a conclusion.

Isn't that how you do things? Oh...no, that's right. You allow people to TELL you what they are. Makes sense

If you are ....a liberal.

Anyway, before you hijacked this thread, the issue was how a school with a majority of students for whom English as, at best, a "second" language can expect anything but for the average scores in mandated testing to be anything but poor.

Every year where I live, schools are tested (not students. We had a conservative governor and legislature for some 12 years, and they made it clear that what is being tested by the students demonstrating their level of mastery of the "three rs" is the SCHOOL's ability to TEACH, not the kids' ability to learn. Of course, had we had a lib guv and legis, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NEA, that would never have been permitted. They are working very hard now that they ARE in power here, to change it). The schools are then publicaly (horrors!) rated as to whether they are doing a poor, average, good or exemplary job. Every year for the past 8 or so, schools with higher numbers of "Hispanics" (they do not bother breaking them out by actual legal residency status of they or their parents) always--ALWAYS--do poor, several to the point of state-mandated closure.

Now, you can shriek "RACCCCCIIISTTTTTT!!!" for my making the entirely reasonable comment on the fact that a heavy "Hispanic" population that we ALSO (according to the same records) know is ESL, indicates that a great many of these kids are themselve illegals or the children of illegals, as you are commanded to do by your Playbook.

But the fact remains that Spanish is not a race. It's a language.

One of the problems with PC (in which libs like you wallow) is that it does not permit HONEST assessments of things. For example: Where I live (and most places in the Western and Southern US, when you are talking about illegal aliens, you are not talking about the dozen or so Australians in the area who've overstayed their visas. You are, by and large, and in overwhelming numbers, talking about people from Mexico, Latin America and in a very few cases, South America.

So, yes, you can equivocate, march out your strawmen fed on a fortifying diet of red herrings, beg the question and engage in all the hasty generalizations you care to in order to toe the left-liberal, PC line, but that simply does not change reality.

The reality is: the schools that consistently fail to the point of state-ordered closure have higher (much, often) than average "Hispanic" populations, and here, where I live, that means many of these students are themselves illegal immigrants or their parents are. By tagging THESE students as "Hispanic" along with all the truly Hispanic-American kids who go to school there does an enormous disservice to those AMERICAN kids, but in your hyper-leftist thinking, since political correctness trumps all, well then...to HELL with those kids!

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

You didn't even read your own post that put my comments in context. So you completely misunderstood yourself!

And yet you wonder why we think you're a joke!



Wow.

Just. Wow.

I don't need to re-read my OWN posts. I know what I think. Your intentional misrepresentation of what I've said is up to you.

Tokie

[LostAngeles]

Simple: I read what you say, compare it to liberal, conservative and "other" political ideologies and arrive at a conclusion.

Isn't that how you do things? Oh...no, that's right. You allow people to TELL you what they are. Makes sense

If you are ....a liberal.

Anyway, before you hijacked this thread, the issue was how a school with a majority of students for whom English as, at best, a "second" language can expect anything but for the average scores in mandated testing to be anything but poor.

Every year where I live, schools are tested (not students. We had a conservative governor and legislature for some 12 years, and they made it clear that what is being tested by the students demonstrating their level of mastery of the "three rs" is the SCHOOL's ability to TEACH, not the kids' ability to learn. Of course, had we had a lib guv and legis, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NEA, that would never have been permitted. They are working very hard now that they ARE in power here, to change it). The schools are then publicaly (horrors!) rated as to whether they are doing a poor, average, good or exemplary job. Every year for the past 8 or so, schools with higher numbers of "Hispanics" (they do not bother breaking them out by actual legal residency status of they or their parents) always--ALWAYS--do poor, several to the point of state-mandated closure.

Now, you can shriek "RACCCCCIIISTTTTTT!!!" for my making the entirely reasonable comment on the fact that a heavy "Hispanic" population that we ALSO (according to the same records) know is ESL, indicates that a great many of these kids are themselve illegals or the children of illegals, as you are commanded to do by your Playbook.

But the fact remains that Spanish is not a race. It's a language.

One of the problems with PC (in which libs like you wallow) is that it does not permit HONEST assessments of things. For example: Where I live (and most places in the Western and Southern US, when you are talking about illegal aliens, you are not talking about the dozen or so Australians in the area who've overstayed their visas. You are, by and large, and in overwhelming numbers, talking about people from Mexico, Latin America and in a very few cases, South America.

So, yes, you can equivocate, march out your strawmen fed on a fortifying diet of red herrings, beg the question and engage in all the hasty generalizations you care to in order to toe the left-liberal, PC line, but that simply does not change reality.

The reality is: the schools that consistently fail to the point of state-ordered closure have higher (much, often) than average "Hispanic" populations, and here, where I live, that means many of these students are themselves illegal immigrants or their parents are. By tagging THESE students as "Hispanic" along with all the truly Hispanic-American kids who go to school there does an enormous disservice to those AMERICAN kids, but in your hyper-leftist thinking, since political correctness trumps all, well then...to HELL with those kids!

Tokie

Yes, I let people tell me what they are, much like I don't let folks tell me I'm Mexican, Indian, Sicilian, Hawaiian, etc, or the TSA tell me I'm Middle-Eastern. I don't let folks tell me I'm a baby-making machine who couldn't add 2+2 with a calculator, much less handle mutli-variable calculus.

Your emphasis on the language and documentation status of these students is precluding the other factors involved in school performance, namely, socio-economic status and parental involvement.

When the parent is working long hours trying to keep the family fed, the parent has very little time to ask the kid how s/he is doing in school or keep in contact with the teachers. When the kid comes to school hungry, it's hard to keep focus. When the kid is surrounded by crime and has to worry about their safety when going back and forth to school, be it gang violence or that crazy homeless person, how much focus can you expect them to have in class?

This isn't to say we shouldn't be holding our schools to high standards, but we should also be focusing on some the factors outside of the classroom that are affecting performance.

When it comes to ESL education, you have to realize that not all of the kids in ESL are from Spanish-speaking homes and not all of them are illegal or the offspring of illegal immigrants. Immersion is the best way to learn, but this is also easier for younger kids who pick up languages faster. Having to juggle learning a new language and new information in that language is diificult.

Still, this is just one part of a whole problem.

You need to stop yelling at a single tree and ignoring the entire forest just because you hate that tree, but love your $19.99 microwaves at Wal-Mart.

[NobbyNobbs]

You are right, teacher salaries are not exceptional. Rid yourselves of your union and that can change. Meanwhile, as always, you say nothing about the bennies. You get full health coverage including dental and vision and even mental health, and you pay nothing for it out of your paycheck (the taxpayer picks it up). Moreover, you will retire at 70-90% of the greatest year's pay you recieve during your career. Meaning that even if, you can't make it to the 25 or 30 years, and go part time or some such, when you DO retire, it won't be at the reduced salary, but at your HIGHEST salary.

I teach at a private school. No union.

I pay my own dental and vision. I retire at 50% of the greatest year's paycheck. If I stick around 30 years, that means I'll probably retire at $35K of today's dollars.





On top of all this, the economy does not--ever--impact your salary. It just keeps going up. You cannot be fired for virtually any reason after reaching "tenure" or whatever mealy-mouthed thing it's called today.

As I said, it's a private school. The economy directly impacts parents' abilities to send their kids there. Less kids means less teachers.

My state is an "at-will" state. It means I can quit at a moment's notice with no stated reason. It also means they can fire me at a moment's notice for no stated reason.



And finally, nobody is holding a gun to your head. On the very off chance you are a teacher because you actively decided that's what you wanted to do, and not because at some point in college you said to yourself after seeing another 2.16 GPA for the year, "well, I can always teach, I guess," nobody forced you into it, and nobody is forcing you to stay right now.

Tokie

This is the disregard you hold for teachers? I have some choice names for you, but they'd probably violate the membership agreement.


Only if they ARE citizens should they have the right to "free" healthcare.

My point exactly. The people I was talking about are the kids born here, hence they are legal citizens.


So...you admit that you were a party to an illegal act, the knowning employment of someone not here legally and therefore not legally entitled to hold a job here?

What did you do about that? Did you turn the joint in? Did you fire the illegal? Or just hire more?

And why were you, a good, caring liberal, a party to exploiting these poor "Hispanic immigrants" simply seeking a better life and doing the jobs "Americans won't do!!"?

Tokie

A) I did not hire these folks. I came into jobs where they already worked.

B) Once I found out there were illegals at any particular job, I did what I could to help them become legal, which, as I said, about 90% wanted to. I helped them contact the proper offices, fill out the proper forms, etc.

So much for your assumptions.




My kids are in high school...young to me, but hardly in need of moment-by-moment Daddy time. I imagine any kids of yours would need that. But that's why we have parole officers and social workers.



And with that, I leave the thread. Completely unnecessary. Bye, everyone.

[LibraryLady]

Please remember to keep the tone civil and to attack the argument. Snide remarks about each other's parenting skills are not on topic.

[Gnu Ordure]

"mortal coil" may not have, in the original meant what I used it to mean, but it means that now.


No, it doesn't.

This is not a case of the meaning of a word evolving over time. Find me a dictionary defining coil as you used it, ie meaning world or the Earth - you won't be able to.

The meaning of coil as Shakespeare used it has died out and is now archaic. You never see it these days except as part of the phrase this mortal coil, indicating that the meaning intended is as Shakespeare meant it. But most people don't actually know what he meant, they're guessing, just as you did.

No shame in ignorance, Token. Many people are unfamiliar with Shakespeare and sixteenth century English, and so get it wrong. (From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_coil))

However, your reaction to being corrected is significant. You could have thanked me for the information, but no, you insist that the meaning of the word has in fact changed, when it hasn't, and that you will continue to use it incorrectly.

So the next time someone calls you on it, you won't be able to claim ignorance, as you have this time. And you're obviously not stupid.

What else is there ?

Here's another definition:

Bigot - a person obstinately and unreasonably attached to an opinion or belief.

And in my dictionary, next to the definition, there's a picture of you.



As I said, Token, my original point was minor, but sometimes small points are just as revealing as large ones.

So, enjoy your game of winding up the lefties (which incidentally, you are signally failing to do as far as Lonewulf is concerned).

But you've clearly demonstrated contempt for almost everyone here, and you're not interested in listening or learning. And while you might be having fun, your insults, sarcasm and condescension really aren't entertaining enough for the neutral observer, so I'm leaving you to it.

A parting shot.

Some of your earlier ranting reminded me of Macbeth's observation :


It is a tale told by an idiot,

Full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.



.

[ImaginalDisc]

No, it doesn't.

This is not a case of the meaning of a word evolving over time. Find me a dictionary defining coil as you used it, ie meaning world or the Earth - you won't be able to.

The meaning of coil as Shakespeare used it has died out and is now archaic. You never see it these days except as part of the phrase this mortal coil, indicating that the meaning intended is as Shakespeare meant it. But most people don't actually know what he meant, they're guessing, just as you did.

No shame in ignorance, Token. Many people are unfamiliar with Shakespeare and sixteenth century English, and so get it wrong. (From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_coil))

However, your reaction to being corrected is significant. You could have thanked me for the information, but no, you insist that the meaning of the word has in fact changed, when it hasn't, and that you will continue to use it incorrectly.

So the next time someone calls you on it, you won't be able to claim ignorance, as you have this time. And you're obviously not stupid.

What else is there ?

Here's another definition:

Bigot - a person obstinately and unreasonably attached to an opinion or belief.

And in my dictionary, next to the definition, there's a picture of you.



As I said, Token, my original point was minor, but sometimes small points are just as revealing as large ones.

So, enjoy your game of winding up the lefties (which incidentally, you are signally failing to do as far as Lonewulf is concerned).

But you've clearly demonstrated contempt for almost everyone here, and you're not interested in listening or learning. And while you might be having fun, your insults, sarcasm and condescension really aren't entertaining enough for the neutral observer, so I'm leaving you to it.

A parting shot.

Some of your earlier ranting reminded me of Macbeth's observation :


It is a tale told by an idiot,

Full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.



.

Nominated.

[Tokenconservative]

I teach at a private school. No union.

I pay my own dental and vision. I retire at 50% of the greatest year's paycheck. If I stick around 30 years, that means I'll probably retire at $35K of today's dollars.

As I said, it's a private school. The economy directly impacts parents' abilities to send their kids there. Less kids means less teachers.

My state is an "at-will" state. It means I can quit at a moment's notice with no stated reason. It also means they can fire me at a moment's notice for no stated reason.

This is the disregard you hold for teachers? I have some choice names for you, but they'd probably violate the membership agreement.

My point exactly. The people I was talking about are the kids born here, hence they are legal citizens.

A) I did not hire these folks. I came into jobs where they already worked.

B) Once I found out there were illegals at any particular job, I did what I could to help them become legal, which, as I said, about 90% wanted to. I helped them contact the proper offices, fill out the proper forms, etc.

So much for your assumptions.

And with that, I leave the thread. Completely unnecessary. Bye, everyone.

I always love this sort of "clever" debating tactic.

Provide only part of the necessary data, forcing your opponent to make the natural assumptions, then when he does, leap on his errors and shriek "you're wrong, ahahhahahhahahhahahaha!"

Sheesh.

My comments are, as anyone who's now a fan of mine knows directed almost entirely at PUBLIC schools teachers. I have known some pretty piss-poor private school teachers, but in the main, private schools appear to tend to hire a much higher-quality teacher. So virtually all of your vitriol is in fact, vituperation.

You are certainly meeting a different sort of illegal than am I. Most I meet have Mexican flags all over everything they own and don't stand for the pledge and the National Anthem, because they are not "their's."

I've actually had the children of illegals (yes, I make that horrific assumption) tell me this in schools.

And of course you then have to run away...probably figuring out at the end of this rant that my comments are not, and never are, aimed at private school teachers.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

No, it doesn't.

This is not a case of the meaning of a word evolving over time. Find me a dictionary defining coil as you used it, ie meaning world or the Earth - you won't be able to.

The meaning of coil as Shakespeare used it has died out and is now archaic. You never see it these days except as part of the phrase this mortal coil, indicating that the meaning intended is as Shakespeare meant it. But most people don't actually know what he meant, they're guessing, just as you did.

No shame in ignorance, Token. Many people are unfamiliar with Shakespeare and sixteenth century English, and so get it wrong. (From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_coil))

However, your reaction to being corrected is significant. You could have thanked me for the information, but no, you insist that the meaning of the word has in fact changed, when it hasn't, and that you will continue to use it incorrectly.

So the next time someone calls you on it, you won't be able to claim ignorance, as you have this time. And you're obviously not stupid.

What else is there ?

Here's another definition:

Bigot - a person obstinately and unreasonably attached to an opinion or belief.

And in my dictionary, next to the definition, there's a picture of you.



As I said, Token, my original point was minor, but sometimes small points are just as revealing as large ones.

So, enjoy your game of winding up the lefties (which incidentally, you are signally failing to do as far as Lonewulf is concerned).

But you've clearly demonstrated contempt for almost everyone here, and you're not interested in listening or learning. And while you might be having fun, your insults, sarcasm and condescension really aren't entertaining enough for the neutral observer, so I'm leaving you to it.

A parting shot.

Some of your earlier ranting reminded me of Macbeth's observation :


It is a tale told by an idiot,

Full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.



.

Well, if nothing else, you (and others) have certainly managed to derail the thread.

Nothing PC and it's minions (if I am using that term correctly) despise (if I am using that term correctly) and fear more than an open presentation of the truth.

Which is why those very minions needs must do exactly what you are doing here "this argument is clearly wrong because the guy making the presentation used an inconsequential (to the issue/argument) term incorrectly!!"

Therefore, one can assume, that had I used "moral coil" correctly, you would agree with the original point, eh?

No...of course not. Even were my English usage, grammar etc. exemplary and without any possible nit-picky flaw, you'd STILL find some way to divert the issue...look! An eagle!

Sheesh.

You are right...this is a closed thread.

My experiment was a complete success (and I know I am using that term correctly in this case).

Tokie

[Zep]

Wow.

Just. Wow.

I don't need to re-read my OWN posts. I know what I think. Your intentional misrepresentation of what I've said is up to you.

Tokie

This is just toooooo good! You can't write bad comedy like this, folks! Now, can you!

It's not "champagne" comedy, it's...it's...spumante comedy??! :D

[Tokenconservative]

Yes, I let people tell me what they are, much like I don't let folks tell me I'm Mexican, Indian, Sicilian, Hawaiian, etc, or the TSA tell me I'm Middle-Eastern. I don't let folks tell me I'm a baby-making machine who couldn't add 2+2 with a calculator, much less handle mutli-variable calculus.

Your emphasis on the language and documentation status of these students is precluding the other factors involved in school performance, namely, socio-economic status and parental involvement.

When the parent is working long hours trying to keep the family fed, the parent has very little time to ask the kid how s/he is doing in school or keep in contact with the teachers. When the kid comes to school hungry, it's hard to keep focus. When the kid is surrounded by crime and has to worry about their safety when going back and forth to school, be it gang violence or that crazy homeless person, how much focus can you expect them to have in class?

This isn't to say we shouldn't be holding our schools to high standards, but we should also be focusing on some the factors outside of the classroom that are affecting performance.

When it comes to ESL education, you have to realize that not all of the kids in ESL are from Spanish-speaking homes and not all of them are illegal or the offspring of illegal immigrants. Immersion is the best way to learn, but this is also easier for younger kids who pick up languages faster. Having to juggle learning a new language and new information in that language is diificult.

Still, this is just one part of a whole problem.

You need to stop yelling at a single tree and ignoring the entire forest just because you hate that tree, but love your $19.99 microwaves at Wal-Mart.

Socio-economic status and parenting: hmmm...I grew up dirt poor. My parents basically stopped paying attention to us (had their own issues) when I was about 10. Let's not talk about me, tho: I have a brother who holds degrees in math. He is the "go to" guy in this area of the country for what he does with software (don't ask me what that is...I have no clue). He probably gets a dozen headhunters a week trying to poach him and drag him of to CA or somewhere. My other brother runs the tech division of an international firm that produces a unique product that just about everybody uses. He's also a fairly impressive real estate investor.

I'm reasonably successful at what I do and married to a wonderful woman who is very successful (she's one of those same types of "go to" people in our area in what she does. I am not, by the way, but that's partly because we decided I should stay home and raise the kids when they were little. My firm is, however, now steadily growing and taking a larger and larger part of the local (that's all it can) market share, every day, thanks for asking.

When I was a kid, we would've qualified for "free" lunches, WIC, foodstamps, etc. if my parents hadn't too much pride not to do that. My dad (none of us kids has much to do with him, unfortunately--his choice) is virtually destitute and my mom died with nothing, just so you don't get the idea that I spent my formative years playing at the "family compound." They lost their home to the IRS just before divorcing some years ago. They DID stay together long enough to raise us, but I really think that was more a matter of convenience than anything else.

I am boycotting Wally Mart because of their practice of placing the "Hispanic" signange about the American signanage and their habit of employing people who can't seem to speak the language of the US of A.

What your own race, ethnicity etc. is, I really don't care, regardless of your shrieking attempts to divert the issue by claiming I MUST be a RAACCCCIIISTTTTTT!! I am not. What matters in this discussion is this: Are. You. An. American?

I don't really care whether that means your grandfather came through Ellis Island with mine, or whether you crossed the Rio Grande last week. If you are a legal resident/citizen, then you fall outside the scope of my ire, no matter the color or your skin, eyes, hair, stature, girth, gender, etc. If you are an AMERICAN, none of these things matter BECAUSE this is America. But you must pass that first and most important test.

If you are here, in my country, illegally, then you are fair game. I don't dislike you because of your skin or eye color, I dislike you because you are a criminal who has no right to be in my country sucking at the public teat. You need to go home and get "free" healthcare and "free" education in your homeland.

As to ESL: why on earth would a school put the child of a citizen born in America in an ESL class.

Anyone?

Anyone?

Couldn't be because every ESL kid is a $$ bonus for the school...

Must be why they insisted my 1/2-blooded Choctaw nephew be in one, huh?

Tokie

[Flo]

This is just toooooo good! You can't write bad comedy like this, folks! Now, can you!

It's not "champagne" comedy, it's...it's...spumante comedy??! :D




Hmmm, I'm not sure about "spumante", rather one of those sour sparkling wines produced out of a white "Chateau Migraine", especially the melodramatic opus just after your intervention ... :D

[LostAngeles]

Socio-economic status and parenting: hmmm...I grew up dirt poor. My parents basically stopped paying attention to us (had their own issues) when I was about 10. Let's not talk about me, tho: I have a brother who holds degrees in math. He is the "go to" guy in this area of the country for what he does with software (don't ask me what that is...I have no clue). He probably gets a dozen headhunters a week trying to poach him and drag him of to CA or somewhere. My other brother runs the tech division of an international firm that produces a unique product that just about everybody uses. He's also a fairly impressive real estate investor.

I'm reasonably successful at what I do and married to a wonderful woman who is very successful (she's one of those same types of "go to" people in our area in what she does. I am not, by the way, but that's partly because we decided I should stay home and raise the kids when they were little. My firm is, however, now steadily growing and taking a larger and larger part of the local (that's all it can) market share, every day, thanks for asking.

When I was a kid, we would've qualified for "free" lunches, WIC, foodstamps, etc. if my parents hadn't too much pride not to do that. My dad (none of us kids has much to do with him, unfortunately--his choice) is virtually destitute and my mom died with nothing, just so you don't get the idea that I spent my formative years playing at the "family compound." They lost their home to the IRS just before divorcing some years ago. They DID stay together long enough to raise us, but I really think that was more a matter of convenience than anything else.

I am boycotting Wally Mart because of their practice of placing the "Hispanic" signange about the American signanage and their habit of employing people who can't seem to speak the language of the US of A.

What your own race, ethnicity etc. is, I really don't care, regardless of your shrieking attempts to divert the issue by claiming I MUST be a RAACCCCIIISTTTTTT!! I am not. What matters in this discussion is this: Are. You. An. American?

I don't really care whether that means your grandfather came through Ellis Island with mine, or whether you crossed the Rio Grande last week. If you are a legal resident/citizen, then you fall outside the scope of my ire, no matter the color or your skin, eyes, hair, stature, girth, gender, etc. If you are an AMERICAN, none of these things matter BECAUSE this is America. But you must pass that first and most important test.

If you are here, in my country, illegally, then you are fair game. I don't dislike you because of your skin or eye color, I dislike you because you are a criminal who has no right to be in my country sucking at the public teat. You need to go home and get "free" healthcare and "free" education in your homeland.

As to ESL: why on earth would a school put the child of a citizen born in America in an ESL class.

Anyone?

Anyone?

Couldn't be because every ESL kid is a $$ bonus for the school...

Must be why they insisted my 1/2-blooded Choctaw nephew be in one, huh?

Tokie

So you're an exception to the usual standards. This could be due to any number of factors, say, other adults who stepped in, role models, you over-simplifying your background.

I don't shop at Wal-Mart because it has crap to sell, lousy service, and lousy business practices. Also, the city won't put up with that crap here. (Of course, that's partly due to the REEEAAAASSSEEEAAARRRCCHHHH of the LIBBBBEERRRAAALLL UC Berkley.)

So, if a child has crossed the Rio Grande legally last week and is an American citizen, then they should not be in an ESL class? Or if their parents crossed legally and gave birth here, they should not be in an ESL class even if the primary language at home is Spanish or something else?

Hey, they put me in speech therapy for having a New Jersey accent instead of a MA one and in remedial gym because I couldn't see the ball.

No one in the school system EVER makes a mistake.

But your anecdotes prove that all poor kids who are doing badly in school are just stupi... I mean, ILLLLEEEEGGGAAALLL...:rolleyes:

[volatile]

Has Bill O'Reilly gotten himself a JREF account or something? This whole "debate" is absurd.

Tokie - have you noticed how this is working yet? You make an outrageous claim, others post evidence to prove you are wrong, you whine about it, refuse to substantiate your original point and, even in light of your obvious error, continue to stick doggedly to your ill-formed ideas.

What was that about the global warming "religion"? There's at least one person acting religiously in support of an ideology here, and if you'd take the time to find a mirror you might catch a glimpse of them.

You know what? I love learning. If I made a statement which someone proved, very conclusively, was wrong, I'd thank them and change my opinions. You, on the other hand bitch and whine and cry and, even when presented with rafts of rafts of evidence and even when you lack even a single source to back up your opinions, refuse to change your mind.

That, my friend, is called ignorance.

[ImaginalDisc]

So, if a child has crossed the Rio Grande legally last week and is an American citizen, then they should not be in an ESL class? Or if their parents crossed legally and gave birth here, they should not be in an ESL class even if the primary language at home is Spanish or something else?

Deleted.

[volatile]

Leaving aside how wrong everything you've said is, no child could possibly have illegally immigrated and then become an American citizen within a week. It's not possible.

Pssst! She said "legally".

[ImaginalDisc]

Pssst! She said "legally".

I've been reading this thread too long. I thought I nabbed a quote from Token.

Mea culpa.

[Gnu Ordure]

I've changed my mind, Token, you are entertaining (but not deliberately).

You said:
From ImaginalDisc :

In neither case does it appear you're qualified to pass judgment on the education other people should receive.


Hmmm...this is like one of those net grammar nannies who screams about your misuse of a semi-colon, while making all sorts of grammatical and spelling mistakes him/herself in the complaint.


Yes, such hypocrisy is despicable, isn't it, Token ?

But let's be clear. You're heavily critical of the standard of public-school teaching in the States, right ? And you feel qualified to be critical because you are a qualified teacher yourself, you've taught in the public-school system, and still do teach English as a sub occasionally.

Over in the "Grammar adds nothing" thread yesterday, you confirmed your dissatisfaction in responding to Aquila's anecdote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yesterday I subbed in a Ist grade classroom where the teacher had written a poem on a poster on the wall as an example for the children. She had used the word "to" instead of "too" - as in "I can do it to".


Yes, that's a big problem I run into as well. I see handouts from teachers that are so riddled with such errors it's embarassing. My kids come home from school with such things, too.

And I not talking about stuff from their math and science teachers, but from their English and History teachers, the first of whom should have a very strong mastery of the language.


Hilarious.

In the same breath as asserting your own 'very strong mastery of the language', and castigating your hapless fellow professionals for lacking it, and describing your feelings about it... you misspell 'embarrassing'.


Now that's embarrassing.

But I know what you'll say. "One little mistake, so what ?"

Hardly. Just one of many.

In ten minutes browsing, I found these other examples of your spelling:

fascetious

germain

tenditioius

seperate (at least five of those)

persue

hegemeny

supressed

councel

cunundrum

privelege

recieve

and

our capitol city.

This isn't about your grammar, Token, which anyway you know and admit is weak (no disgrace there, by the way - some people are just better than others at that stuff).

This is about your credibility as a critic of other teachers. If you're going to criticize their spelling, it does rather behoove you to check your own and get it right. Which you fail to do. Over and over again.

Thus you criticize others for faults that you yourself possess.

Hypocrite.

Are you going to say that this is a forum, not a class-room, so it doesn't matter ?

Please. This is a public educational forum. This is the education section of the educational forum. You're a teacher (sometimes). There may be kids reading this, listening to you, hoping to learn from you, a teacher. You admit your spelling is poor - and yet you continue to post in an illiterate fashion, refusing to spell-check your posts, while simultaneously expecting your criticisms of other teachers to be respected and taken seriously.

Some hope.

One more point. Before I went to collect your spelling mistakes, I didn't know what subjects you taught. I discovered that not only are you an English teacher, but you've actually taught Hamlet to 16-year-olds.

Which makes it even more astounding that you didn't understand what mortal coil meant. An English teacher, with a BA in English Lit, who doesn't understand the most famous speech in the most famous play by the most famous playwight in history, and who therefore cannot teach it ?

Poor 16-year-olds.

[volatile]

One more point. Before I went to collect your spelling mistakes, I didn't know what subjects you taught. I discovered that not only are you an English teacher, but you've taught Hamlet to 16-year-olds.

Which makes it even more astounding that you didn't understand what mortal coil meant. An English teacher, with a BA in English Lit, who doesn't understand the most famous speech in the most famous play by the most famous playwight in history, and who therefore cannot teach it ?

Poor 16-year-olds.

Nominated. What a brilliant, brilliant post!

[Damien Evans]

You seem confused. That's not my "philosophy." Actually, it's quite clearly a "philosophy" (?) of the left. Lenin (a communist) first said "the lie told often enough becomes the truth) and Hitler's man Goebbels ( A Nazi--socialist) put it to use. These are leftists. Like you.


Wow, so you actually think that the Nazi party was a lefty party?:jaw-dropp

That's about the most stupid thing I've ever seen

[LostAngeles]

I've been reading this thread too long. I thought I nabbed a quote from Token.

Mea culpa.

:mad:

[ImaginalDisc]

:mad:

:(

[Tokenconservative]

I've changed my mind, Token, you are entertaining (but not deliberately).

You said:



Yes, such hypocrisy is despicable, isn't it, Token ?

But let's be clear. You're heavily critical of the standard of public-school teaching in the States, right ? And you feel qualified to be critical because you are a qualified teacher yourself, you've taught in the public-school system, and still do teach English as a sub occasionally.

Over in the "Grammar adds nothing" thread yesterday, you confirmed your dissatisfaction in responding to Aquila's anecdote:




Hilarious.

In the same breath as asserting your own 'very strong mastery of the language', and castigating your hapless fellow professionals for lacking it, and describing your feelings about it... you misspell 'embarrassing'.


Now that's embarrassing.

But I know what you'll say. "One little mistake, so what ?"

Hardly. Just one of many.

In ten minutes browsing, I found these other examples of your spelling:

fascetious

germain

tenditioius

seperate (at least five of those)

persue

hegemeny

supressed

councel

cunundrum

privelege

recieve

and

our capitol city.

This isn't about your grammar, Token, which anyway you know and admit is weak (no disgrace there, by the way - some people are just better than others at that stuff).

This is about your credibility as a critic of other teachers. If you're going to criticize their spelling, it does rather behoove you to check your own and get it right. Which you fail to do. Over and over again.

Thus you criticize others for faults that you yourself possess.

Hypocrite.

Are you going to say that this is a forum, not a class-room, so it doesn't matter ?

Please. This is a public educational forum. This is the education section of the educational forum. You're a teacher (sometimes). There may be kids reading this, listening to you, hoping to learn from you, a teacher. You admit your spelling is poor - and yet you continue to post in an illiterate fashion, refusing to spell-check your posts, while simultaneously expecting your criticisms of other teachers to be respected and taken seriously.

Some hope.

One more point. Before I went to collect your spelling mistakes, I didn't know what subjects you taught. I discovered that not only are you an English teacher, but you've actually taught Hamlet to 16-year-olds.

Which makes it even more astounding that you didn't understand what mortal coil meant. An English teacher, with a BA in English Lit, who doesn't understand the most famous speech in the most famous play by the most famous playwight in history, and who therefore cannot teach it ?

Poor 16-year-olds.

You want astounding...or pathetic, your choice...a person who spends this much time digging through someone else's "stupid" posts and doing this.

Wow.

Jus...wow.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Has Bill O'Reilly gotten himself a JREF account or something? This whole "debate" is absurd.

Tokie - have you noticed how this is working yet? You make an outrageous claim, others post evidence to prove you are wrong, you whine about it, refuse to substantiate your original point and, even in light of your obvious error, continue to stick doggedly to your ill-formed ideas.

What was that about the global warming "religion"? There's at least one person acting religiously in support of an ideology here, and if you'd take the time to find a mirror you might catch a glimpse of them.

You know what? I love learning. If I made a statement which someone proved, very conclusively, was wrong, I'd thank them and change my opinions. You, on the other hand bitch and whine and cry and, even when presented with rafts of rafts of evidence and even when you lack even a single source to back up your opinions, refuse to change your mind.

That, my friend, is called ignorance.

Here, my friend, is the difference 'twixt what YOU call learning and what I know is learning: you take all of your information carefully filtered. That way, when someone suggests something "off the wall" like say, your religion, Global Warming is um...well, a religion, you can run around howling "but what about all the PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES!!??"

Dun't change the FACT that these are produced by people who are not being honest to science, does it?

No, it doesn't.

I've been presented with no "evidence" that GW is real. Only more of the same: prejudiced "PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES!!!" that work backward from pre-determined conclusions to support the theory that the earth is flat.

That's not scientific evidence.

That's religion.

Tokie

[volatile]

Here, my friend, is the difference 'twixt what YOU call learning and what I know is learning: you take all of your information carefully filtered. That way, when someone suggests something "off the wall" like say, your religion, Global Warming is um...well, a religion, you can run around howling "but what about all the PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES!!??"

Dun't change the FACT that these are produced by people who are not being honest to science, does it?

No, it doesn't.

I've been presented with no "evidence" that GW is real. Only more of the same: prejudiced "PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES!!!" that work backward from pre-determined conclusions to support the theory that the earth is flat.

That's not scientific evidence.

That's religion.

Tokie

Wait, what?

My learning is actually reading information from a variety of sources and weighing up that evidence rationally in order to come to a considered opinion, and yours is to make an ideologically-biased, logically unsound, rationally unsupported, baseless whine, and I'm the one in the wrong?

If you say so, buddy...

*backs away slowly*

If peer-reviewed articles written by people who have spent decades of their lives studying climatology isn't evidence in your world, what *do* you accept as evidence? Who told you, or from whence did you learn, that global warming isn't happening, or isn't anthropogenic?

I'm serious - where did you get this information? You've been asked before, but not told us. If asking climate scientists, who have studied these things all their lives, isn't the right way to find out about the climate, what is the right way? How do you know that AGW isn't happening?

[Zep]

An "English Lit. graduate" who can't spell basic English words - stifled laugh.

Same "English Lit. graduate" who can't spell basic English words and tries to pretend this isn't funny - guffaw.

Same "English Lit. graduate" who can't spell basic English words and tries to pretend this isn't funny and THEN tries to convince us that the National Socialists are commies - PRICELESS!

Spumante comedy! (really cheap champagne)

[Smiledriver]

From a purely argumentation standpoint...

Yor PC wayling aside, th fackt of the mater iz thet the vast majority of those in this area who do not speak English are in the country illegally. You can run around shrieking "prove the sun rises in the east!!!" all you want, and if I fail to do so you can puff out your chest and proudly proclaim yourself the winner of the debate...but the sun will continue to rise in the east, nonetheless.

...you seem to be arguing that you need not actually prove anything you say so long as it seems to be the case. None of the propositions you have made are self evident, they require reasons to be considered true.

Following this with the hoary tactic (pg. 2, section 1, Liberal Playbook) by implying that anyone noting the facts of this situation must needs by a flaming, xenophobic sheet-warin' redneck nightrider, is not only a very cleverly "hidden" ad hom, but reeks of guilt by association and is an enormous non sequitur. But screaming "RAAAACCCIIISTTTTTTTTTT!!!!" at anyone who dares point up the truth in this sichiashun, is laughably predictable of people on yor siyde of this deebayt

...You rightly censure us for the ad hom, but you lob one back and raise us a scarecrow. That is to say nothing of the conservative/liberal false dicotomy that is implied above.

Mayhaps hat is where the next fine writers will come from...what this has to do with anything in my post, I cannot say. And while I am sure many fine, upstanding additions to our society will come out of the illegal population, in the meantime, schools in places like where I live, are falling apart and those who have an actual right to be there are getting a(n even more) sub-standard education because of the overwhelming presence of these people.

...perhaps, that sounds reasonable As for my two cents, I remember my public school and I have often heard stories about others like it where the greatest ideas of mankind have been not taught at all or presented with so little passion that kids walk out thinking Shakespeare was a bore and Historicsm and Relativism weren't ideas that fall apart the moment you think about them for ten seconds. Maybe public schools have just worked so hard at making science, history and learning in general seem boring and not particulary valuable that kids just make the completely foreseeable conclusion and drop out...I wish I would have.

Tokie[/QUOTE]

[Tokenconservative]

Wait, what?

My learning is actually reading information from a variety of sources and weighing up that evidence rationally in order to come to a considered opinion, and yours is to make an ideologically-biased, logically unsound, rationally unsupported, baseless whine, and I'm the one in the wrong?

If you say so, buddy...

*backs away slowly*

If peer-reviewed articles written by people who have spent decades of their lives studying climatology isn't evidence in your world, what *do* you accept as evidence? Who told you, or from whence did you learn, that global warming isn't happening, or isn't anthropogenic?

I'm serious - where did you get this information? You've been asked before, but not told us. If asking climate scientists, who have studied these things all their lives, isn't the right way to find out about the climate, what is the right way? How do you know that AGW isn't happening?

GW has always been political. Now, even more than in the past.

Scientists who want their funding to continue know that they cannot tell the truth, or at best must shade the truth with lots of "yeah, buts" and tap dancing around any findings that indicate that um...actually, not so much.

Look at the scientists who claimed that the 2005 hurricane season was just the beginning, and that every season after would be worse and worse....tell us again, how many cat 5s slammed into the US in 2006? This year? I must misremember.... While the left-advocacy media has been braying TEOTWAWKI!!! everytime a slight breeze rises in the Atlantic each hurricane season, in fact, these seasons have done what long time REAL climate scientists like retired (key term) Colo State Univ. prof Gray, a pioneer in hurricane prediction has said they will do since...well, forever (he predicted the 2006 season): hurricanes run on a 20-25 year clock. At the upper end of their run, they get worser and worser and morer and morer. This has to do with salinity in the ocean, not GLOBAL WAAARRRRRMMIIINNNNGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

As a GW zealot, you don't like THIS evidence, so when you confront such, you squinch your eyes shut rilly, rilly tightly, cover your ears and shriek "I can't hear you! I can't HEEEEAARRRR YOU!!!"

And that works for you.

Meanwhile, your kind, believeing your high priests and their acolytes who do their bidding and carry their water, are forcing governments to "act" in very, very expensive ways and to contemplate engaging in massive projects to "curb" or even "reverse" what appears to be entirely natural and very, very slight warming of the global temp.

For your part, as a willing footsoldier, you are happy to close your eyes to both the evidence against your faith, and the Inquisition perpetrated against any heretic who dares utter even the mildest "not so fast" and indeed, in the front row of the ignorant, suspicious, religious peasants when they burn these heretics at the stake.

Since you "know" that your religion, Global Warming is the One True Way these heretics are clearly insane and only getting what they deserve for daring to speak out against the One True Way. And of course, anything they say is to be dismissed as the ramblings of the insane and in fact, should be officially stricken from the record by the Priesthood.

This is belief, pal...pure and simple. You are a secularist, but you are still a human. And humans, like it or not, have a prediliction toward belief in the supernatural. Since you, as a secularist have rid yourself (and your society) of faith in the standard gods, you have had to replace it with another: Science. And of course, since you know nothing of how politics does and always has intefered with science (science is as politics does...mean anything to you?) you are able to close your mind to the fact that scientists like to eat and that they will arrive at the conclusions those paying them want to hear just as readily as will pollsters, marketers, political advisors, etc.

Now, in another thread in here, we are told that local weather is a predictor of GW. Where I live, we have snow (3rd year running) earlier and earlier in the year...earlier than at anytime in the past oh, 20-25 years (hmm...that number again). While hurricanes in the Gulf are of course, predictors of impending GW TEOTWAWKI (until they don't do what the howling scaremongers say they should do..) isn't the snow here ALSO a predictor? But is SNOW a predictor of...warming? I don't know where you live, or whether you've ever experienced snow, but I have...it's actually cold, and the conditions required to produce it (and keep it lying about) are um...well, cold...not warm.

Please explain?

Tokie

[volatile]

:words:

All very rantlike, but you wasted a lot of words and didn't answer the very simple questions I put.

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

I'd honestly like to know where I can find the Truth - if my current knowledge-acqusition methodology is flawed, as you claim, please tell me how I can improve! I believe you that I'm wrong, Tokie - just tell me how I should be doing things. What's the TC way? Who should I learn about climate from?

ETA: As an addendum, if you have time, maybe you can explain who told you that global warming = everywhere gets hotter weather, as your last paragraph implies? I'd like to check that out for myself.

[Darat]

Split the "USA Liberals are ideologically close to Nazis" stuff to http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=96347.

Last warning - either this reverts to a discussion appropriate for this section of the Forum i.e. something vaguely about Eduction or it gets closed.

[delphi_ote]

Therefore, one can assume, that had I used "moral coil" correctly, you would agree with the original point, eh?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/Scarecrow-m.jpg

[Tokenconservative]

As I noted before, it took them exactly 3 posts to divert this to something more...comfortable. Even after I noted that this diversion had taken place, they continued--as they MUST--the diversion.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

All very rantlike, but you wasted a lot of words and didn't answer the very simple questions I put.

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

I'd honestly like to know where I can find the Truth - if my current knowledge-acqusition methodology is flawed, as you claim, please tell me how I can improve! I believe you that I'm wrong, Tokie - just tell me how I should be doing things. What's the TC way? Who should I learn about climate from?

ETA: As an addendum, if you have time, maybe you can explain who told you that global warming = everywhere gets hotter weather, as your last paragraph implies? I'd like to check that out for myself.

And yet (clearly you did not in fact read my post) whenever a climatologist, even one as important as Dr. Gray comes out and says that um, no...in fact, that's not what's happening and that one of the primary reasons "everyone" else is saying it is, is money, power and of course, fear, people like you shriek HERETIC!!! BUUUUUURRRRNNNN THE HERETIC!!!

Tokie

[NobbyNobbs]

And yet (clearly you did not in fact read my post) whenever a climatologist, even one as important as Dr. Gray comes out and says that um, no...in fact, that's not what's happening and that one of the primary reasons "everyone" else is saying it is, is money, power and of course, fear, people like you shriek HERETIC!!! BUUUUUURRRRNNNN THE HERETIC!!!

Tokie


Please note that this doesn't answer the questions posed.

[volatile]

And yet (clearly you did not in fact read my post) whenever a climatologist, even one as important as Dr. Gray comes out and says that um, no...in fact, that's not what's happening and that one of the primary reasons "everyone" else is saying it is, is money, power and of course, fear, people like you shriek HERETIC!!! BUUUUUURRRRNNNN THE HERETIC!!!

Tokie

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

[Tokenconservative]

Please note that this doesn't answer the questions posed.

Let me see if I follow your tremendous powers of reasoning: any heretic MUST answer the questions posed (regardless whether the premise is flawed in the first place) but any True Believer can ignore questions at will.

Well, that's certainly how religions have always done it, yep.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

Please read my post, not just my siggy and assume that it's a "rant."

I answered both of these questions in my "rant." It's becoming very clear to me that your only argument is "I believe in GW, and anyone who does not is a ....HEEEERRRREEETIIIIICCCCCC!!! BURN HERETIC, BUUUUURRRNNNNNNNN!!!!"

Not a terribly...strong argument.

Tokie

[NobbyNobbs]

Please read my post, not just my siggy and assume that it's a "rant."

I answered both of these questions in my "rant." It's becoming very clear to me that your only argument is "I believe in GW, and anyone who does not is a ....HEEEERRRREEETIIIIICCCCCC!!! BURN HERETIC, BUUUUURRRNNNNNNNN!!!!"

Not a terribly...strong argument.

Tokie

I've just reread your "rant", twice. I'm having a difficult time picking out where you answered those two questions. The only possibility I see is where you mention "real" scientists like Professor Gray, saying that he's right and, seemingly because they hold an opposing view, others are wrong. What makes him real? What makes others fake? This sort of claim is similar to how 9/11 truthers argue.

To make it clearer, could you please point out where in your "rant" you answered the two questions posed? Thanks.




GW has always been political. Now, even more than in the past.

Scientists who want their funding to continue know that they cannot tell the truth, or at best must shade the truth with lots of "yeah, buts" and tap dancing around any findings that indicate that um...actually, not so much.

Look at the scientists who claimed that the 2005 hurricane season was just the beginning, and that every season after would be worse and worse....tell us again, how many cat 5s slammed into the US in 2006? This year? I must misremember.... While the left-advocacy media has been braying TEOTWAWKI!!! everytime a slight breeze rises in the Atlantic each hurricane season, in fact, these seasons have done what long time REAL climate scientists like retired (key term) Colo State Univ. prof Gray, a pioneer in hurricane prediction has said they will do since...well, forever (he predicted the 2006 season): hurricanes run on a 20-25 year clock. At the upper end of their run, they get worser and worser and morer and morer. This has to do with salinity in the ocean, not GLOBAL WAAARRRRRMMIIINNNNGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

As a GW zealot, you don't like THIS evidence, so when you confront such, you squinch your eyes shut rilly, rilly tightly, cover your ears and shriek "I can't hear you! I can't HEEEEAARRRR YOU!!!"

And that works for you.

Meanwhile, your kind, believeing your high priests and their acolytes who do their bidding and carry their water, are forcing governments to "act" in very, very expensive ways and to contemplate engaging in massive projects to "curb" or even "reverse" what appears to be entirely natural and very, very slight warming of the global temp.

For your part, as a willing footsoldier, you are happy to close your eyes to both the evidence against your faith, and the Inquisition perpetrated against any heretic who dares utter even the mildest "not so fast" and indeed, in the front row of the ignorant, suspicious, religious peasants when they burn these heretics at the stake.

Since you "know" that your religion, Global Warming is the One True Way these heretics are clearly insane and only getting what they deserve for daring to speak out against the One True Way. And of course, anything they say is to be dismissed as the ramblings of the insane and in fact, should be officially stricken from the record by the Priesthood.

This is belief, pal...pure and simple. You are a secularist, but you are still a human. And humans, like it or not, have a prediliction toward belief in the supernatural. Since you, as a secularist have rid yourself (and your society) of faith in the standard gods, you have had to replace it with another: Science. And of course, since you know nothing of how politics does and always has intefered with science (science is as politics does...mean anything to you?) you are able to close your mind to the fact that scientists like to eat and that they will arrive at the conclusions those paying them want to hear just as readily as will pollsters, marketers, political advisors, etc.

Now, in another thread in here, we are told that local weather is a predictor of GW. Where I live, we have snow (3rd year running) earlier and earlier in the year...earlier than at anytime in the past oh, 20-25 years (hmm...that number again). While hurricanes in the Gulf are of course, predictors of impending GW TEOTWAWKI (until they don't do what the howling scaremongers say they should do..) isn't the snow here ALSO a predictor? But is SNOW a predictor of...warming? I don't know where you live, or whether you've ever experienced snow, but I have...it's actually cold, and the conditions required to produce it (and keep it lying about) are um...well, cold...not warm.

Please explain?

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

I've just reread your "rant", twice. I'm having a difficult time picking out where you answered those two questions. The only possibility I see is where you mention "real" scientists like Professor Gray, saying that he's right and, seemingly because they hold an opposing view, others are wrong. What makes him real? What makes others fake? This sort of claim is similar to how 9/11 truthers argue.

To make it clearer, could you please point out where in your "rant" you answered the two questions posed? Thanks.

Naw....I'll go ahead and let you exercise those immense powers of reasoning and much greater education you keep telling me you have and permit you to figger it out on your own.

Tokie

[volatile]

Please read my post, not just my siggy and assume that it's a "rant."

I answered both of these questions in my "rant." It's becoming very clear to me that your only argument is "I believe in GW, and anyone who does not is a ....HEEEERRRREEETIIIIICCCCCC!!! BURN HERETIC, BUUUUURRRNNNNNNNN!!!!"

Not a terribly...strong argument.

Tokie

No, you didn't.

Please,

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

Calm down, don't rant or use caps, and tell me 1) who I should ask about climate science, seeing as you don't agree with every single climate scientist on the planet, and 2) who told you global warming wasn't happening. Spell it out for me. Names, dates, publications. Tell me where I can go, and who I should listen to, to find out that man-made global warming isn't happening. I'm obviously slow and indoctrinated, so help a brother out here.

Answer the questions, TC. They're simple.

[delphi_ote]

As I noted before, it took them exactly 3 posts to divert this to something more...comfortable. Even after I noted that this diversion had taken place, they continued--as they MUST--the diversion.
If you were man enough to admit you were wrong after someone pointed it out to you, the diversion wouldn't have lasted beyond that point. Instead, you've forced an opinion they never stated on them, and then attacked them for it. Stop complaining about other's intellectual honesty when there are such obvious problems with your own.

If you want the subject to stay on topic, the best way to do that is to make relevant points about that topic and keep the schoolyard insults to a minimum.

[NobbyNobbs]

Naw....I'll go ahead and let you exercise those immense powers of reasoning and much greater education you keep telling me you have and permit you to figger it out on your own.

Tokie

You seem to be working very hard to avoid coming up with a clearly stated answer on two simple questions.

[Gnu Ordure]

You want astounding...or pathetic, your choice...a person who spends this much time digging through someone else's "stupid" posts and doing this.


Dear Token,

As Darat said in his sig :

"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Quite so.

Two or three hours ago I was so angry with you, Token, that all I wanted to do was to separate you from the rest of us, and drive you from this Forum. But I realized that this would achieve nothing, except to confirm prejudices on both sides.

And that is your game here, is it not ? You admit you like to come to places like this, you then rant, insult, provoke and antagonize, and eventually the mods (who as you say, tend to be 'liberals' too, ie biased against you) show you the door. You use this to rationalize your own hatred and bitterness, and you move on to the next one.

What a miserable game to play ! What kind of person gets their entertainment by inviting contempt, disgust, anger and rejection from their fellow human beings, over and over again ? An unhappy person, I suspect.

So I reject your game, Token. My anger has gone, and now I feel sorry for you. No need to be offended, feeling sorry for people is my default position. Everybody hurts, everybody suffers, everybody has to say goodbye when their life is snatched away from them. Compassion is appropriate.

And so I'll open my heart to you, and I'll offer you the best advice I can give. I guess you won't hear me, I imagine you'll want to attack me, and you'll regard me as weak for not continuing the fight. So it goes.

I hope you don't deny that you are angry and bitter, Token ? It seems pretty evident to me. This thread for example isn't even an argument, there's nothing to discuss; it exists simply for you to express your hatred for the 'illegals' who are invading your country; you also hate liberals, foreigners, feminists (women generally), teachers, global warmingers (?) and others no doubt... you divide the world into 'us' and 'them', and you blame 'them' for the state of the world and for what's wrong with your life.

How long are you going to live like this ? Desperately defending your world from those you see as threats, hating them and fearing them ?

But believe me, I do understand, Token. I spent years and years being angry, hurting myself and those around me, until I was in danger of destroying myself. I pulled back from the brink, and I managed to turn my life around.

As I said, I'd like to give you some advice, but I fear you'll reject it immediately unless I give it some weight.

I always feel uneasy when I reveal this, old habits die hard, and I haven't mentioned it on this forum before - but if it'll do some good, now's the time.

When I was ten, I fell into the clutches of a group of gay paedophiles. The abuse lasted for several years, my silence and 'cooperation' ensured by death threats. When I grew up, I thought I was free of it at last, but my twenties were blighted by the usual suspects, drug and alcohol abuse, awful behaviour towards my friends, family, and lovers, until I finally realized that I had to face the distress within me, and I got help.

It took years, Token. It took two years of therapy for me to forgive myself (even though I had nothing to forgive myself for). It took another two years to forgive my parents for not protecting me (and to tell them what had happened). And another two years to finally forgive my abusers, and to stop feeling angry towards them, and to stop blaming them for the wreck my life had become.

Halfway-through, fascinated by the changes taking place within me, I decided to become a therapist myself, and did so. I've been practising for nearly twenty years now, the last twelve years full-time in the NHS here in England. I have managed to turn the injuries I suffered into an advantage that I can use to help others: once or twice a year, a patient will reveal abuse to me that they have never told anyone before, because somehow they can sense that I will understand, and that it's safe to tell me, and that I will help them. And they're right.

Token, I'm not saying that you were sexually abused, of course. I'm not a mind-reader, and I don't know why you're so angry, but I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with illegal immigrants.

Let me give you an example of you passing the buck, blaming other people for your actions. You won't like me referring to this, but still...

How about MY case: when I was 17, a fully sexually mature 14 year old girl who told me she was 16 seduced ME. I was a virgin until that time. She told me that she'd had a long affair with a 30 yr-old man where she used to live....


So this young girl had already been abused (raped) over a period of time by a man twice her age. You reckon that makes her 'sexually mature' ? And why didn't you help her, tell her parents, or her teachers ?

I had sex with her the first time, by the way, when her mother and 17-yr-old sister were maybe 10 feet away on the other side of a wall. What the hell was her mother doing allowing her 14 yr-old daughter to be in her bedroom, with the door closed with me?


Oh, it's her mother's fault for trusting you, is it ? Maybe she simply thought you were a nice young man, with a good future as a teacher, and that her daughter would be safe with you ?

Still...by the laws of my state at that time, I "raped" this...


Why the quotation marks, Token ? Do you not understand the meaning of "statutory rape" ?

And for the full impact of your misogyny, we need that quote in full:

Still...by the laws of my state at that time, I "raped" this little slut.


Ah right. My mistake. She's not a 14-year-old girl, three years younger than you, and previously the victim of a serial abuser; she's no longer the person you liked and lost your virginity with. She's now a slut.

You're really testing my compassion here, Token.

Should I have been prosecuted?


I can't see why not.

But according to you, you'd be found 'not guilty' because her mother left her alone with you, she lied about her age, she was sexually mature, you were sexually innocent, she was sexually 'experienced', and she was a 'slut'.

This is buck-passing on a grand scale, do you understand ? No jury would accept any of those excuses. Face the facts. You raped that girl. And you're very lucky to have escaped justice.





Listen, Token, I'm sorry I called you a bigot and a hypocrite, accurate though those terms are. I was lured into playing your game. But I was still right - you had no answer except to say that you were astounded, and that I was pathetic. That doesn't really cut it, does it ?

I'm sure that by now you can anticipate my advice to you.

1. Stop playing this liberal-baiting forum game. It merely reinforces your bigotry, and keeps you stuck.

2. Go find a good therapist, and start addressing your real issues.


I have spent over three hours composing this, Token. I hope it hasn't been a total waste of time. Please, at least give it some thought.



I wish you well.



Gnu.

[Tokenconservative]

If you were man enough to admit you were wrong after someone pointed it out to you, the diversion wouldn't have lasted beyond that point. Instead, you've forced an opinion they never stated on them, and then attacked them for it. Stop complaining about other's intellectual honesty when there are such obvious problems with your own.

If you want the subject to stay on topic, the best way to do that is to make relevant points about that topic and keep the schoolyard insults to a minimum.


Ah...schoolyard taunts like suggesting I ain't a man?

LOL!

I love you guys. I can't seem to get one reply out of any one of you that doesn't take me to task for some error or fault that does not itself engage in exactly the error or fault your reply claims evil ol' Tokie is engaging in.

I don't really care if the subject stays on topic. The issue on that um...issue, is how quickly left-liberals managed to divert it, as they must.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Dear Token,

As Darat said in his sig :

"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Quite so.

Two or three hours ago I was so angry with you, Token, that all I wanted to do was to separate you from the rest of us, and drive you from this Forum. But I realized that this would achieve nothing, except to confirm prejudices on both sides.

And that is your game here, is it not ? You admit you like to come to places like this, you then rant, insult, provoke and antagonize, and eventually the mods (who as you say, tend to be 'liberals' too, ie biased against you) show you the door. You use this to rationalize your own hatred and bitterness, and you move on to the next one.

What a miserable game to play ! What kind of person gets their entertainment by inviting contempt, disgust, anger and rejection from their fellow human beings, over and over again ? An unhappy person, I suspect.

So I reject your game, Token. My anger has gone, and now I feel sorry for you. No need to be offended, feeling sorry for people is my default position. Everybody hurts, everybody suffers, everybody has to say goodbye when their life is snatched away from them. Compassion is appropriate.

And so I'll open my heart to you, and I'll offer you the best advice I can give. I guess you won't hear me, I imagine you'll want to attack me, and you'll regard me as weak for not continuing the fight. So it goes.

I hope you don't deny that you are angry and bitter, Token ? It seems pretty evident to me. This thread for example isn't even an argument, there's nothing to discuss; it exists simply for you to express your hatred for the 'illegals' who are invading your country; you also hate liberals, foreigners, feminists (women generally), teachers, global warmingers (?) and others no doubt... you divide the world into 'us' and 'them', and you blame 'them' for what goes on in your life.

How long are you going to live like this ? Desperately defending your world from those you see as threats, hating them and fearing them ?

But believe me, I do understand, Token. I spent years and years being angry, hurting myself and those around me, until I was in danger of destroying myself. I pulled back from the brink, and I managed to turn my life around.

As I said, I'd like to give you some advice, but I fear you'll reject it immediately unless I give it some weight.

I always feel uneasy when I reveal this, old habits die hard, and I haven't mentioned it on this forum before - but if it'll do some good, now's the time.

When I was ten, I fell into the clutches of a group of gay paedophiles. The abuse lasted for several years, my silence and 'cooperation' ensured by death threats. When I grew up, I thought I was free of it at last, but my twenties were blighted by the usual suspects, drug and alcohol abuse, awful behaviour towards my friends, family, and lovers, until I finally realized that I had to face the distress within me, and I got help.

It took years, Token. It took two years of therapy for me to forgive myself (even though I had nothing to forgive myself for). It took another two years to forgive my parents for not protecting me (and to tell them what had happened). And another two years to finally forgive my abusers, and to stop feeling angry towards them, and to stop blaming them for the wreck my life had become.

Halfway-through, fascinated by the changes taking place within me, I decided to become a therapist myself, and did so. I've been practising for nearly twenty years now, the last twelve years full-time in the NHS here in England. I have managed to turn the injuries I suffered into an advantage that I can use to help others: once or twice a year, a patient will reveal abuse to me that they have never told anyone before, because somehow they can sense that I will understand, and that it's safe to tell me, and that I will help them. And they're right.

Token, I'm not saying that you were sexually abused, of course. I'm not a mind-reader, and I don't know why you're so angry, but I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with illegal immigrants.

Let me give you an example of you passing the buck, blaming other people for your actions. You won't like me referring to this, but still...

So this young girl had already been abused (raped) over a period of time by a man twice her age. You reckon that makes her 'sexually mature' ? And why didn't you help her, tell her parents, or her teachers ?

Oh, it's her mother's fault for trusting you, is it ? Maybe she simply thought you were a nice young man, with a good future as a teacher, and that her daughter would be safe with you ?

Why the quotation marks, Token ? Do you not understand the meaning of "statutory rape" ?

And for the full impact of your misogyny, we need that quote in full:




Ah right. My mistake. She's not a 14-year-old girl, three years younger than you, and previously the victim of a serial abuser; she's no longer the person you liked and lost your virginity with. She's now a slut.

You're really testing my compassion here, Token.

I can't see why not.

But according to you, you'd be found 'not guilty' because her mother left her alone with you, she lied about her age, she was sexually mature, you were sexually innocent, she was sexually 'experienced', and she was a 'slut'.

This is buck-passing on a grand scale, do you understand ? No jury would accept any of those excuses. Face the facts. You raped that girl. And you're very lucky to have escaped justice.





Listen, Token, I'm sorry I called you a bigot and a hypocrite, accurate though those terms are. I was lured into playing your game. But I was still right - you had no answer except to say that you were astounded, and that I was pathetic. That doesn't really cut it, does it ?

I'm sure that by now you can anticipate my advice to you.

1. Stop playing this liberal-baiting forum game. It merely reinforces your bigotry, and keeps you stuck.

2. Go find a good therapist, and start addressing your real issues.


I have spent over three hours composing this, Token. I hope it hasn't been a total waste of time. Please, at least give it some thought.

I wish you well.

Gnu.

LOL.

I do get a great deal of joy irritating a certain type of individual, driving them to near apoplexy as they rage against thet thare stoopid, ig'nant, backwards, racist, sexist, homo- and xeno"phobic" redneck, warmongering hater.

I love the reeking stench of lefty hate in the morning.

And, right again, I do derive a whole 'nother set of gleeful giggles out of watching as the more "tolerant" types, working themselves up into a zealous, righteous lather, attempt to have the heretic burned at the stake, or at minimum tossed out on his cauliflower ear (I believe the number of complaints lodged against me by members of this forum stands at 24 as of today!).

As always, I find a free internet psychoanalysis to be worth at least thrice the price! Thanks! I'll add it to the others I've collected over now nearly a decade of playing at this online, etc.

As for my "own life," I'd hazzard to guess you know little to nothing about that, and your projection of your own feelings onto me as "hate" is about as far off the mark as it can be. I don't hate illegals or certainly women. I do detest left-liberal hypocrites, so you have me on that one. I find many teachers (in America, you are British, no?) to be contemptible only because they play a game of their own. Most are anti-intellectuals, and not very bright anyway, and so they lean to the left because they find that the left protects their kind.

Zealous, doctrinaire Global Warmingists I find to be very dangerous. I have another 30 or 40 years to live and have kids and hopefully grandkids who will need to live in a safe, free world, not one run by the likes of an Algore ginning up fear as he does. But let's not quibble about it. Let's put our money where our mouths are.

I have $10,000USD sitting here. If you can match that, we will put it in escrow, or better, an interest bearing account administered by a lawyer we agree upon, and in say, 10 years, if the Chrysler Building in Manhattan doesn't have water up to it's 14th floor, I get the money. If it does YOU get the money.

You game?

As to your example....LOL! Pay closer attention. I was still a child myself. When I found out the girl's age, I beat feet out of there...I found out because here sister, whom I thougt musta been 19-20, came screaming at me one night about how I'd "raped" her little sister.

What would YOU have done at 17 in that situation? Gone to her mother? The cops? LOL!

I love 20/20 hindsight.

Tokie

[volatile]

LOL.

I do get a great deal of joy irritating a certain type of individual, driving them to near apoplexy as they rage against thet thare stoopid, ig'nant, backwards, racist, sexist, homo- and xeno"phobic" redneck, warmongering hater.


There's one person who's resorting to apoplectic screeching in caps here, Tokie - you. Plus, we've ticked off racism, sexism, xenophobia and stupidity just in the last few days of your posts here. I haven't seen you post much in the way of homophobia yet, but I'm sure it's coming.

10 years, if the Chrysler Building in Manhattan doesn't have water up to it's 14th floorWho told you that global warming predicts the Chrysler Building will have water to its 14th floor in a decade? Add this to the earlier questions, of which you still haven't answered any. Let's let the others slide (for example, you still didn't say where you saw the claim that global warming means hot weather everywhere) and let's concentrate on the two main ones.

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

I really would like to know. I've been calm, polite and honest. If you could do me the same courtesy, I'd be glad. No rants, no caps, no missives. Just concise, bullet-pointed answers to two simple questions.

Please.

[LostAngeles]

Moving things back, I'll note that Token never responded to the fact that his experience does not negate the troubles of the entire lower socio-economic classes when it comes to education.

Further, Token, I work with these kids. These kids take a lot of crap from teachers like you, who have decided that they're not good enough. They take crap from their families who are stressed out from trying to make a living. They take crap from the folks in their neighborhood, be it criminals or homeless folk. They come to where I work and the good folks who run it try to make it a safe place where they can do their homework, where they can be encouraged, and where they can be kids.

You, Token, are part of the problem. You are not a bringer of, "truth," to the blind, "LIIIIIBBBBBEEERRRAALLLLSSSS!!!!!!!1111eleventyone." You hate the very kids you claim you want to help just because you suspect that they or their parents are here illegally.

Sins of the father, eh?

The problem of illegal immigration is a complex one, but I can't see it being solved by treating the children like crap. The actual solutions are politcally unworkable (shutting off the job market, getting the countries that are the source to stop being so corrupt, etc), but that why should we punish the children?

BTW, my mom wanted us to be fed so she worked her ass off, swallowed her pride and took government handouts the few times she could get them. So don't cry, "poor," at me.

[volatile]

Most are anti-intellectuals[...]Wasn't it you who decried every single piece of intellectually-derived evidence for anthropogenic global warming with a deft flick of the wrist?

Who's anti-intellectual again?

[Mashuna]

I have $10,000USD sitting here. If you can match that, we will put it in escrow, or better, an interest bearing account administered by a lawyer we agree upon, and in say, 10 years, if the Chrysler Building in Manhattan doesn't have water up to it's 14th floor, I get the money. If it does YOU get the money.

You game?


That's fine by me.

Does piped water count?

[delphi_ote]

Ah...schoolyard taunts like suggesting I ain't a man?
Do you see how you've just admitted you won't admit it when you are wrong? Sorry. No, you probably don't. That would require logic and induction.
I don't really care if the subject stays on topic.
You don't care about it except when you're complaining about it. Got it. That is completely rational.

[Tokenconservative]

There's one person who's resorting to apoplectic screeching in caps here, Tokie - you. Plus, we've ticked off racism, sexism, xenophobia and stupidity just in the last few days of your posts here. I haven't seen you post much in the way of homophobia yet, but I'm sure it's coming.

Who told you that global warming predicts the Chrysler Building will have water to its 14th floor in a decade? Add this to the earlier questions, of which you still haven't answered any. Let's let the others slide (for example, you still didn't say where you saw the claim that global warming means hot weather everywhere) and let's concentrate on the two main ones.

1) If we shouldn't get our information about climate from climatologists, who should we get it from?

2) Where did you learn that global warming wasn't happening and / or wasn't anthropogenic?

I really would like to know. I've been calm, polite and honest. If you could do me the same courtesy, I'd be glad. No rants, no caps, no missives. Just concise, bullet-pointed answers to two simple questions.

Please.

1. Answered.

2. Answered (one source, anyway). You should try reading what others actually write, rather than what you WANT (oops!) them to write. I find it a marvelously refreshing approach, and I'm sure you will as well!

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

That's fine by me.

Does piped water count?

Piped water?

Tokie

[danielk]

Face the facts. You raped that girl. And you're very lucky to have escaped justice.
I agree with the gist of your analysis of Token's anger, but I think this serious accusation is uncalled for. A 17-year-old having sex with a 14-year-old is perfectly normal, as long as it is consensual. Of course it doesn't make her a slut, nor was her mother irresponsible for granting her daughter some privacy in her own room, nor does it mean he was "seduced" just because she lied about her age.

[Darat]

As per my last Mod Box - thread closed.