Alkaline, ionized water, Kagen Alkaline Water, Acidosis

[bigjohn756]

Recently, I have received email forwarded to me by a friend for my opinion. One was a link to an advertisement for Kagen Alkaline Water. Another was an article about acidosis.

To the request for an opinion regarding Kagen water, I replied to her as follows:

"I researched this briefly. I have an idea that when I mention that you can purchase a unit to turn your tap water into Kangen water for $3,980.00 you will see that there are better ways to avoid acidosis. Just add a little baking soda to your water and save your money. There are so many sites on the internet that sell alkaline water making devices that I gave up after scanning 20 or 30 sites out of thousands. It seems that EVERYONE is selling expensive machines that make alkaline, ionized water which will MAKE YOU WELL, CURE ALL AILMENTS, etc., etc.. "

I cannot post URLs yet but you can find plenty of links on Google to Kagen water ads and discussions: kangenwaterusa, iluvwater, etc.

This strikes me as a bit 'over the top' shall I say. I would certainly like to hear from some folks with some expertise on this subject.

[Graham Jackman]

I suppose that if the health authorities were to consider this of benefit and actively treat the water supplies to produce the same effect, there'd be an uproar! I always say that if you're going to tell a lie, tell a big one. Then do it with a straight face!:)

[damh11]

Alkaline is the bodies natural state - we must maintain that state by breathing or we'd acidify and die. When you breath you take in oxygen which alkalizes your bodies. If you stop breathing, the body will use up the O2 in the lungs, then it'll use up the OH- in the blood/fluids, and then it would die - this would take 3 minutes.

Looking at the basics,

What is acid? Effectively, it is a depleted state, a loss of an elctron
What is alkaline? It is the opposite, it has gained an electron.

The Hydrogen atom is the simplest atom - 1 electron, 1 proton. If you take away the electron you are left with just the proton or just H+ (ie acid). This 'atom' or rather proton has lost something, lost energy, because electrons are regions of charge or energy - photons are released when electrons move from a region of high charge to a lower one.

Conversely, the OH- has gained an electron (thats what the H- stands for). The H- ion (or H-minus) is also called active hydrogen.

So a can of cola at an acid pH of 2 can be thought of as depleted in energy, even though it has 9 spoons of sugar. In other words, it is not giving your body any nutrients, the body actually has to donate essential minerals to it so that it can be digested. If you measured the ORP it would be very positive.

If you put a nail in a glass with cola in it, it would rust very quickly. The excess H+ would grab electrons from the nail, making it rust.

Conversely, if you put the nail in ionized water (this has a high pH and low OPR), the nail would not rust.

Remember, you can 'alkalize' (ie increase the pH) water adding drops of hydroxides to it, but this does nothing to the ORP - you need to ionize the water to get these benefits.

Also, citrus fruits are acidic - if you squeeze lemon juice to water, it'll raise the pH, however, when you drink the juice, it digests to form alkaline minerals and has an overall alkalizing effect on the body.

Fruits and fruit juices are alkalizing - even if they may be acid to start with. Meats are acidifying (even if they may have a high alkaline mineral content relative to vegetables) because the process of digestion of proteins needs acid enzymes and acidic digestive juices. So does the end product of metabolism - it produces lots of acid wastes.

This happens with fruits too, but they produce less acid wastes. With alkaline water though, no acidity is produced, so it is the best way to alkalize the body.

[Madalch]

Alkaline is the bodies natural state - we must maintain that state by breathing or we'd acidify and die.
No- the bloodstream is naturally at a very nearly neutral pH of 7.3-7.5. This is held constant by a buffer system. If your body gets too acidic, you will die, and if it gets too alkaline, you will die.

When you breath you take in oxygen which alkalizes your bodies. If you stop breathing, the body will use up the O2 in the lungs, then it'll use up the OH- in the blood/fluids, and then it would die - this would take 3 minutes.
Utter bosh from beginning to end. Oxygen is neither an acid not a base in the traditional Brosted-Lowry or Arrhenius definitions, and is an acid in the Lewis sense. You need the oxygen to react with the sugars in your cells to provide the energy used to run the body.

What is acid? Effectively, it is a depleted state, a loss of an elctron
What is alkaline? It is the opposite, it has gained an electron.
Wrong again. In the Bronsted-Lowry definition (the most common one), an acid is a proton (H+) donor, and a base is a proton acceptor.

This 'atom' or rather proton has lost something, lost energy, because electrons are regions of charge or energy - photons are released when electrons move from a region of high charge to a lower one.
Losing electrons is not the same thing as losing energy.

Conversely, the OH- has gained an electron (thats what the H- stands for). The H- ion (or H-minus) is also called active hydrogen.
The H- ion is not "active hydrogen", it's a hydride ion. It is exceedingly reactive, and cannot exist in aqueous solution, being a far stronger base than the hydroxide ion.

So a can of cola at an acid pH of 2 can be thought of as depleted in energy, even though it has 9 spoons of sugar.
It is quite acidic, but it is not "depleted in energy". It is not "depleted in electrons" either, since every cation (positive ion) in solution has anions to match.

In other words, it is not giving your body any nutrients, the body actually has to donate essential minerals to it so that it can be digested.
While some soft drinks may cause demineralization, it's not for the reasons you seem to think it is.

If you measured the ORP it would be very positive.
ORP?

If you put a nail in a glass with cola in it, it would rust very quickly. The excess H+ would grab electrons from the nail, making it rust.
Old wives' tale. A friend of mine put a nail into a bottle of coke, and has had it sitting around for a month. It's still there.

Conversely, if you put the nail in ionized water (this has a high pH and low OPR), the nail would not rust.
What do you mean by "ionized water"?

Also, citrus fruits are acidic - if you squeeze lemon juice to water, it'll raise the pH, however, when you drink the juice, it digests to form alkaline minerals and has an overall alkalizing effect on the body.
Acids -lower- the pH, not raise it.

Do you have anything to say that's not scientifically ridiculous? A number of the posters on this forum have degrees in chemistry- if you make fundamental errors, you will be called on them.

[Fnord]

So I visited the website, and left an email saying that their water cured nothing, and that the claims were fraudulent. The immediate response read:


Thanks For Visiting My Website!
The First Step To Abundant Health and Prosperity!

Greetings,

My name is Luis Aguilar and I am here to answer any and all questions that you may have about this AMAZING product and company! I wanted you to know that I did in fact receive your information request and I will contact you as soon as possible. I have had a wonderful response from my website since it was launched, so I will make efforts to contact you within 24-48hrs. Thanks in advance for your patience.

Please feel free to contact me directly as well.
Wishing you wellness!

Luis Aguilar
Health Wellness Advocate
Garden Grove, Ca
714-421-4992
luis@whatiskangen.com (luis@whatiskangen.com)

For more direct product information, visit:
* www.WhatIsKangen.com (http://www.WhatIsKangen.com)

For shocking information about your body and common diseases, visit:
* www.AlkalizeYourBody.net (http://www.AlkalizeYourBody.net)



How do I find out if the website name "www.StopLuisAguilar.com (http://www.StopLuisAguilar.com)" is taken?

[Evilgiraffe]

I think ORP is referring to Oxidation-Reduction PotentialWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox)

I've never been very hot on electrochemistry, but I'm betting damh11's idea of what's going on in blood electrolyte chemistry is a darn sight worse.

[Madalch]

I think ORP is referring to Oxidation-Reduction PotentialWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox)

That occurred to me, but I usually think of reduction potentials and oxidation potentials as being two different (but related) things.

[Evilgiraffe]

So a can of cola at an acid pH of 2 can be thought of as depleted in energy, even though it has 9 spoons of sugar. In other words, it is not giving your body any nutrients, the body actually has to donate essential minerals to it so that it can be digested. If you measured the ORP it would be very positive.

This statement, as you pointed out Madalch, is nonsense. Especially the bolded part since a can of cola can't have oxidation and reduction potentials.

The species present within it can, but I'm not certain what is meant by ORP being "very positive".

Is the oxidation potential very positive? Is it the reduction potential? Will damh11 be able to clarify his/her position on this?

[damh11]

It is better to be Alkaline or Acidic.

We set out to answer this question by doing our do diligence on the internet to see what the medical profession had to say. After that, we spoke to some real doctors and received confirmation that disease thrives in an acidic environment. Pretty much across the board, medical professionals agree that it is better to be slightly alkaline than acidic.

[damh11]

It is better to be Alkaline or Acidic.

We set out to answer this question by doing our do diligence on the internet to see what the medical profession had to say. After that, we spoke to some real doctors and received confirmation that disease thrives in an acidic environment. Pretty much across the board, medical professionals agree that it is better to be slightly alkaline than acidic.

Research has led us to understand that just about every food and drink that you put in your mouth is acidic. There are a few exceptions such as raw vegetables and certain fish, but besides that almost everything else is acidic. We were shocked to find that even bottled water, distilled water and reverse osmosis water is acidic. The real kicker is that stress also makes us acidic, as well as the pollution in the air we breathe.

[Acleron]

It is better to be Alkaline or Acidic.

We set out to answer this question by doing our do diligence on the internet to see what the medical profession had to say. After that, we spoke to some real doctors and received confirmation that disease thrives in an acidic environment. Pretty much across the board, medical professionals agree that it is better to be slightly alkaline than acidic.

BTW what did the unreal doctors have to say?

[Evilgiraffe]

... We were shocked to find that even bottled water, distilled water and reverse osmosis water is acidic. ...

Actually this "finding" isn't the slightest bit surprising.
Water is an incredibly good solvent and as such will absorb gases from the atmosphere, notably CO2.

CO2 in water forms an equilibrium with carbonic acid;
CO2 + H2O = H2CO3

Carbonic acid is unsurprisingly acidic, therefore any pure water that is exposed to the atmosphere will rapidly become slightly acidic.

[murphyr]

Actually this "finding" isn't the slightest bit surprising.
Water is an incredibly good solvent and as such will absorb gases from the atmosphere, notably CO2.

CO2 in water forms an equilibrium with carbonic acid;
CO2 + H2O = H2CO3

Carbonic acid is unsurprisingly acidic, therefore any pure water that is exposed to the atmosphere will rapidly become slightly acidic.

Certainly. The key being that the body has a fairly astounding buffering system already and does not need to have significant amounts of base added to counteract the acidic properties of some foods.

Pretty much across the board, medical professionals agree that it is better to be slightly alkaline than acidic.

Cite?

Conversely, the OH- has gained an electron (thats what the H- stands for). The H- ion (or H-minus) is also called active hydrogen.

I'm sorry. I've been focusing mostly on physical chemistry lately, and so am a bit out of touch, but did you just try to invoke a flipping 'H-' ion? They exist, of course, in the form of metal halides (formally, at least) but I have yet, in my years in reading the literature to hear anyone refer to a halide as "active hydrogen". You also seem to be unclear on the nomenclature used to describe hydroxide. Yes, it's "OH-", but that doesn't imply that you can separate the hydrogen out and assign all of the negative charge to it. That's actually precisely the opposite of what is going on.

The whole thing seems to be a mishmash of half-understood introductory-level chemistry along with vague references to "leading scientists" who you refuse to name or cite.

And sure, this has all been refuted before, but it's late, damn it, and I was just stunned into silence by this garbage.


Is the oxidation potential very positive? Is it the reduction potential? Will damh11 be able to clarify his/her position on this?

Generally, and please correct me if I'm wrong, "ORP" refers to reduction potential, such that a highly positive half-reaction would have a high tendency to be reduced (or, would be very oxidative).

Now, whether damh11 will know what that means, or how it can be applied at all to the nonsense that preceeds it, I suppose we'll just have to wait.

[Fnord]

It is better to be Alkaline or Acidic.


Says who? Name, title, and certs, please.

We set out to answer this question by doing our do diligence on the internet to see what the medical profession had to say. After that, we spoke to some real doctors and received confirmation that disease thrives in an acidic environment. Pretty much across the board, medical professionals agree that it is better to be slightly alkaline than acidic.


Did you consult the entire medical profession, or only those of its members whose opinions might be interpreted to support your assertions?

It seems that it is most likely you sought out only those "medical professionals" who supported your assertions, or who at least, did not object to them.

Again, please provide names, certifications, et cetera.

Research has led us to understand that just about every food and drink that you put in your mouth is acidic.


Please cite the published reports of your research, and include the names and credentials of the researchers, as well as where and when the research took place.

There are a few exceptions such as raw vegetables and certain fish, but besides that almost everything else is acidic.


Please name these alleged "exceptions", and the methods used to determine the pH.

Oh, and the calibration of your equipment; is it traceable to a known and established standard?

We were shocked to find that even bottled water, distilled water and reverse osmosis water is acidic.


How long was the bottled water exposed to the air? How much carbon dioxide did the sample absorb? What was the pH, both before and after exposure to the air? Where were these tests performed, and who performed them?

The real kicker is that stress also makes us acidic, as well as the pollution in the air we breathe.


So this acidification is a natural process, and you seek to circumvent this process with ordinary water that has some alkaline substance dissolved in it.

Perrier (http://www.perrier.com/EN/index2.asp), anyone?

[Deetee]

Perhaps someone could introduce damh11 to kumar, and we could sit back and enjoy the show.
:popcorn1

[JJM]

Originally Posted by damh11 http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3637670#post3637670)
Research has led us to understand that just about every food and drink that you put in your mouth is acidic.


Then by Fnord:
Please cite the published reports of your research, and include the names and credentials of the researchers, as well as where and when the research took place.The claimed acidity of most foods is correct: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html Alkalinizers (I may have invented that term, here) often claim, perversely, that the more acid the food (in natural form), the more "alkaline" it is during digestion and metabolism.

Everything else damh11 wrote is quite incorrect, as has been noted by others.

[Fnord]

... Everything else damh11 wrote is quite incorrect, as has been noted by others.

I know. But I am also trying to challenge damh11 to provide specific proof of his statements without resorting to posting the word "Evidence?" every other sentence or so.

It's troubling ... the arrogance of these "Miracle Water" fakers in their thinking that everyone is as gullible and ignorant as they are.

[flume]

Alkalinizers (I may have invented that term, here) often claim, perversely, that the more acid the food (in natural form), the more "alkaline" it is during digestion and metabolism. There are nutrition articles, for instance by Remer and Manz, which calculate 'potential renal acid loads' (PRAL) from food based on their mineral and protein content. This is related to the net acid excreted in urine as a result of eating certain foods. From those calculations, some foods which are acidic when pH is measured, such as fruit juices, are predicted to have a negative PRAL.
What is your arressment of this kind of analysis?

An example from pubmed:J Am Diet Assoc. 1995 Jul;95(7):791-7.

Potential renal acid load of foods and its influence on urine pH.

Remer T, Manz F.

Research Institute of Child Nutrition, Dortmund, Germany.

The purpose of this study was to calculate the potential renal acid load (PRAL)
of selected, frequently consumed foods. A physiologically based calculation model
was recently validated to yield an appropriate estimate of renal net acid
excretion (NAE); the model depends primarily on nutrient intake data. When
nutrient data from actual food composition tables were used, the calculation
model yielded PRAL values that ranged from an average maximum of 23.6 mEq/100 g
for certain hard cheeses over 0 mEq/100 g for fats and oils to an average minimum
of approximately -3 mEq/100 g for fruits and fruit juices and vegetables. By
means of these PRAL data (summed according to the amounts of foods and beverages
consumed daily and by an estimate of excretion of organic acids [based on body
size]), the daily NAE can be calculated. This calculation methodology, primarily
based on PRAL, allows an appropriate prediction of the effects of diet on the
acidity of urine. For practical applicability in dietetic prevention of recurrent
urolithiasis or in other fields of dietetics, the additionally determined
correlation (r = .83; P < .001) between NAE and urine pH can be used to ascertain
NAE target values for a desired urine pH modification.

[JJM]

There are nutrition articles, for instance by Remer and Manz, which calculate 'potential renal acid loads' (PRAL) from food based on their mineral and protein content. {snip}

What is your arressment of this kind of analysis?Thanks for the citation, it is interesting; but the alkalinizers usually refer to the pH of the blood; which they think is the same as the pH of the urine, which is what they measure. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/your_friday_dose_of_woo_acid_base_or_woo_2.php

Here ia a review (PDF) of a book promoting an "alkaline diet" http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/PhMiracle.pdf The reviewer is too polite to write that the diet is based on idiocy (they call it "based on what seems to be a rather obscure theory"). However, they do point out that some aspects (such as emphasis on vegetables) are reasonable.

It seems to be a typical case of nonsense wrapped around a kernel of truth. For the alkaline diet- "vegetables are good for you" would be the truth.

[Complexity]

woo + money = scam

woo + internet = spam

Luis Aguilar / damh11 are perpetrating both scam and spam.

They should be stopped now.

[icerat]

Thanks for the citation, it is interesting; but the alkalinizers usually refer to the pH of the blood;

I haven't found that to be the case, the usually just refer to the pH of "the body", which is a pretty meaningless statement since it varies depending on which part of the body you want to talk about!

Incidentally, acidic foods (particularly fruit) can indeed have an alkalyzing effect due to the way they're digested. There are some serious theories around that poor modern diet may mean a lot of folk are "suffering" from mild acidosis. Even if true I'm skeptical, and been unable to find any research to confirm either way, that "alkaline water" can have much effect on this. In any case, almost certainly better to up the fruit & veg intake!

[JJM]

I haven't found that to be the case, the usually just refer to the pH of "the body", which is a pretty meaningless statement since it varies depending on which part of the body you want to talk about!Thanks for that clarification, I was simply thinking about how they measure said pH.

[icerat]

Measure? Folk selling alkaline water as a cure all?

hahahaha ... good one! :)