Christian Founded vs White Founded

[Spindrift]

Isn't the premise that because the USA was founded by Christians that therefore the USA is a Christian nation remarkably similar to the neo-Nazi's claim that since the USA was founded by white men that the nation is a white nation?

Societies, hopefully, change and grow. Just because group X was part of Y at some point in the past does mean that everyone who is part of Y should be in group X now.

[Garrette]

Have you ever been asked why you hate America?

I bet you're carrying an American Communist Liberties Union membership card, aren't you?

---

More seriously, while the comparison of the two groups is a stretch (you haven't done that, but you will likely be accused of it), the comparison of the thought process is valid, I think.

[Spindrift]

Have you ever been asked why you hate America?

I bet you're carrying an American Communist Liberties Union membership card, aren't you?

---

More seriously, while the comparison of the two groups is a stretch (you haven't done that, but you will likely be accused of it), the comparison of the thought process is valid, I think.

I'm not comparing the groups in general, though I would think that extremist Christians and neo-Nazis do seem to share a lot of members.

What I was attacking is the thought process itself. That the characteristics of whoever started something should be the characteristics of that something forever.

Hence the idea that the USA is a christian country seems to me to be as absurd as the idea that the USA is white country. This is not to deny the fact that the majority of the population is white and christian. That does not make the goivernment itself white and christian. On the contrary, the government is specifically not white and christian in spite of those majorities. It's taken a long time to get there and some can rightfully argue the journey's no where near complete. But trying to go backward ain't gonna happen, hopefully.

BTW: I haven't been asked why I hate America. I know you were joking but it never occurred to me that that would be a reaction. But now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised.

[JoeEllison]

Isn't the premise that because the USA was founded by Christians that therefore the USA is a Christian nation remarkably similar to the neo-Nazi's claim that since the USA was founded by white men that the nation is a white nation?

Societies, hopefully, change and grow. Just because group X was part of Y at some point in the past does mean that everyone who is part of Y should be in group X now.

It isn't identical, obviously, but the "logic" behind it, and the way both sets of bigots express themselves, is remarkably similar.

[becomingagodo]

USA was not founded by christian but freemasons. Also the ideas that came to form USA was actually by two atheist Thomas Paine and that other enlightenment philosopher(can't remeber the name).

Historically speaking you could make the case that native indians had a strong hand in making USA.

On another side note. USA has a very bad history(like most countries). Mass slavery and racism is not something good.

[Garrette]

I'm not comparing the groups in general, though I would think that extremist Christians and neo-Nazis do seem to share a lot of members.

What I was attacking is the thought process itself.Which is why I said this:while the comparison of the two groups is a stretch (you haven't done that, but you will likely be accused of it), the comparison of the thought process is valid, I think.



Hence the idea that the USA is a christian country seems to me to be as absurd as the idea that the USA is white country. This is not to deny the fact that the majority of the population is white and christian. That does not make the goivernment itself white and christian. On the contrary, the government is specifically not white and christian in spite of those majorities. It's taken a long time to get there and some can rightfully argue the journey's no where near complete. But trying to go backward ain't gonna happen, hopefully.I agree.


BTW: I haven't been asked why I hate America. I know you were joking but it never occurred to me that that would be a reaction. But now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised.Nor would I.

[Garrette]

USA was not founded by christianSome founders were Christian.


but freemasons.Some founders were probably freemasons.


Also the ideas that came to form USA was actually by two atheist Thomas PaineI used to think Paine was atheist. Someone made me reconsider so that now I think it possible he was deist. I don't know, though, and am not well enough informed to debate it.


and that other enlightenment philosopher(can't remeber the name). Locke?


Historically speaking you could make the case that native indians had a strong hand in making USA.In a couple of senses. The Iroquois Confederation certainly had some influence. Their ultimate inability to resist encroachment had greater.


On another side note. USA has a very bad history(like most countries). Mass slavery and racism is not something good.Very true.

[Spindrift]

On another side note. USA has a very bad history(like most countries). Mass slavery and racism is not something good.

On another side note. USA has a very good history (like a lot of countries). Helping save the world from Fascism and Tupperware are just a couple of somethings that are good.

[Madalch]

On another side note. USA has a very good history (like a lot of countries). Helping save the world from Fascism and Tupperware are just a couple of somethings that are good.
When did the USA help save the world from Tupperware?

[Zygar]

USA was not founded by christian but freemasons. Also the ideas that came to form USA was actually by two atheist Thomas Paine and that other enlightenment philosopher(can't remeber the name).

Historically speaking you could make the case that native indians had a strong hand in making USA.

On another side note. USA has a very bad history(like most countries). Mass slavery and racism is not something good.

Do you actually know anything? Or do you just type anything that comes to mind without any thought whatsoever?

[Doc Daneeka]

Socrates just contacted me from the great beyond. He wants to know how how you define good and bad in terms of a nation's history.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Isn't "tradition" the first bastion of fascists?

Charlie (since Nazi's were invoked in 1st post) Monoxide

[Garrette]

Isn't "tradition" the first bastion of fascists?You got a problem wid dat?

rabble-rousing-commie-jew-mumble-grumble

[ImaginalDisc]

On another side note. USA has a very good history (like a lot of countries). Helping save the world from Fascism and Tupperware are just a couple of somethings that are good.

Sorry, but the US gets no credit for saving the world from fascism. We entered WWII only after it became transparently obvious we weren't going to be left out. We can't claim any moral high ground, because it was a case of self-defense.

[Spindrift]

Sorry, but the US gets no credit for saving the world from fascism. We entered WWII only after it became transparently obvious we weren't going to be left out. We can't claim any moral high ground, because it was a case of self-defense.

The reason the US got into the war doesn't change the fact that the US was a major factor in defeating the Fascists. Whether or not the US should have gotten involved earlier is irrelevant.

In hindsight, one could almost always say that someone should have taken some action sooner to prevent some atrocity. In that case almost no one could ever take the "moral high ground" for any good deed.

The US went kicking and screaming into the war, but they did get into it and the world is arguably a lot better off for it.

[pgwenthold]

I kind of like the question posed here. What else can we fill in the blanks?

"The founding fathers were _____, and therefore the US is a ______ nation."

1. Christian
2. White
3. Male
4. Wearing powdered wigs

???

[ImaginalDisc]

The reason the US got into the war doesn't change the fact that the US was a major factor in defeating the Fascists. Whether or not the US should have gotten involved earlier is irrelevant.

In hindsight, one could almost always say that someone should have taken some action sooner to prevent some atrocity. In that case almost no one could ever take the "moral high ground" for any good deed.

The US went kicking and screaming into the war, but they did get into it and the world is arguably a lot better off for it.

The world is better for it true, but we did it out of pure self-defense, not to save the Jews, homosexuals, and Chinese peasants. It was "Europe's War" and we were glad to stay out of it.

[Darat]

WWII was, especially in the early years, seen as something the USA could profit from both politically and economically - and the USA took advantage of that.

Of course the USA entering the war was crucial to ensuring that the Germans and their allies suffered the defeat they did do.

[Spindrift]

The world is better for it true, but we did it out of pure self-defense, not to save the Jews, homosexuals, and Chinese peasants. It was "Europe's War" and we were glad to stay out of it.

So we did it out of self-defense. So what? I never said anything about our reasons for getting into the war. The reasons one does something does not change the effect of doing that something.

No matter what the reason was for the US getting into WWII, the US helped save the world from fascism and that is a good thing.

[LostAngeles]

I kind of like the question posed here. What else can we fill in the blanks?

"The founding fathers were _____, and therefore the US is a ______ nation."

1. Christian
2. White
3. Male
4. Wearing powdered wigs

???

5. wearing frilly shirts
6. capraphiles
7. named Prince and I am funky
8. gonna rock you like a hurricane

[El_Spectre]

5. wearing frilly shirts
6. caprisphiles
7. named Prince and I am funky
8. gonna rock you like a hurricane

9. Horny

[Lonewulf]

I used to think Paine was atheist. Someone made me reconsider so that now I think it possible he was deist. I don't know, though, and am not well enough informed to debate it.

Believe me, he was Deist. He's pretty clear on that in Age of Reason.

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html#1

[Garrette]

Believe me, he was Deist. He's pretty clear on that in Age of Reason.



http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html#1 Thanks. I even have "Age of Reason." Just haven't read it in a long while. Some day I will develop perfect memory.

[Lonewulf]

Thanks. I even have "Age of Reason." Just haven't read it in a long while. Some day I will develop perfect memory.

It's a beautiful read. Thomas Paine is one of my few heroes.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Today's (Fri Oct 5th) Point of Inquiry has an interview (http://www.pointofinquiry.org/) with Alan Dershowitz talking about this point. It is another great interview from POI and will answer the questions posed on this thread.

Charlie (TGI POI podcast night) Monoxide

[h0mesch00led]

i checked it out, it was pretty interesting.. some good points were made