My Mommy is Teh Woo

[Puppycow]

Looking back at my childhood, it kind of amazes me just how much woo my mother believed (and to the best of my knowledge still believes).

It’s not that she’s dumb. In many ways she’s a very smart woman. She can do calculus. When I was baby she literally designed a modern functional house, which my father and his friends built. She was the architect and he was the carpenter. Both my parents graduated from Cornell and worked in the scientific labs there as technicians. She’s great at word games like scrabble and crossword puzzles.

But she also has a circle of New Age friends who are into spirituality and woo. BTW, she’s also a vegetarian, and into “organic” food. She consults her pendulum whenever making a decision. She gets astrological charts done for herself and also for her family members.

She took me and my brothers to a straight chiropractor throughout our childhood. I continued to believe in chiropractic well into adulthood, even after figuring out about other forms of woo. At the time I didn’t know there was any difference between “straight,” “mixers” and “reform” chiropractors. I know the one she took me to was a “straight” now based on my memories of what he did. He used “Applied Kinesiology” and prescribed homeopathic remedies as well as these other awful-tasting supplements, which I am not sure what on earth they contained (they tasted like dirt or worse, and you couldn’t swallow them with water, you had to chew them because it was important that you taste them; at least the homeopathic remedies tasted like sugar). One reason I believed in chiropractic for so long is that once he actually “cured” me of something: carsickness. For some unknown reason I went through a period where I always experienced motion sickness in a car. At some point my mom took me to the Chiropractor and he did his thing and crunched my back, and after that I was “cured.” I stopped experiencing motion sickness on the car ride home from his office. In retrospect, it seems to me that motion sickness must be at least partly psychosomatic in origin, and hence potentially susceptible to the placebo effect. At the time however, it seemed like a miracle cure to me, and I was really impressed. So was my mother. She took it as vindication. I remember her saying that if she had taken me to a normal doctor he probably would have prescribed some anti-nausea drug, but here I had been instantly and permanently cured without drugs.

At one point she decided to start her own business giving “body wraps” which involved wrapping up in bandages like a mummy to make them sweat and presumably achieve a more slender figure. One of the curious things about this practice involved the water which was used in the process (I don’t know all the details). Anyway, one evening I came downstairs and found her preparing for a body wrap for the next day by pounding this large plastic jug of water with the heel of her hand. This made me curious: What was she doing to this water? She told me she was “succussing” the water. At the time I had never heard the word before, although recently I heard the same word in connection with the preparation of homeopathic remedies. Even at the time I was immediately doubtful about the necessity or effectiveness of this particular operation. Water is a liquid, it contains gadzillions of molecules of H2O swimming around among each other. Wouldn’t any energy imparted by this “succussion” dissipate in random motions by the next day? I expressed my doubt to her. She told me there was a reason but that it was a long story and would take a long time to explain. I decided to take a pass, but I wasn’t convinced.

Another time after I really became a skeptic and discovered Randi’s site here I was visiting my parents and we went to a Chinese restaurant. BTW, it was located in a pretty typical American strip mall. Upon walking in the door, my mother remarked: “Oh wow! can you feel that energy?! I’m sure they used Feng Shui in designing this restaurant.” Me: :rolleyes: Good grief. I don’t feel anything unusual.
Mom: There are things in this world that you don’t know about.
I don’t remember exactly what was said after that, but I was annoyed that she was convinced that I was the ignorant one. I hadn’t been hanging out with her friends all these years (they actually met semi-formally as a group to “study” spiritual New Age things together). I wasn’t going to disabuse her of years of mutual reinforcement over dinner. (Plus I would be embarrassed to ask the waitstaff if they used Feng Shui in designing the place. To me it would be rude: the equivalent of assuming they are ignorant and superstitious. And they might not even know anyway.)

More recently we had a fight when she called up asking for birthdates and places for my kids so she could have “charts” made for them. I got mad and refused to tell her because it was total nonsense and a complete waste of money. Later she called and got the info from my wife, who is too polite to refuse.

[/rant]

[Vitnir]

I feel the pain, my parents are also afflicted by woo and in my mothers case a considerable amount of money was also wasted.

[Puppycow]

I feel the pain, my parents are also afflicted by woo and in my mothers case a considerable amount of money was also wasted.

Thanks. :D

[Puppycow]

Another thing I just remembered: She sent both my younger brothers to be educated in a Waldorf school.
Waldorf schools were invented by Rudolf Steiner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner), who also "invented" Biodynamic Agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_Agriculture), another form of woo.

[Professor Yaffle]

More recently we had a fight when she called up asking for birthdates and places for my kids so she could have “charts” made for them. I got mad and refused to tell her because it was total nonsense and a complete waste of money. Later she called and got the info from my wife, who is too polite to refuse.


She didn't know the dates of birth of her own grandkids??!

[Reno]

My father wears copper bracelets. I've tried to reason with him, but he and my mother will not accept that all the bracelets do is turn the cuffs of his shirts green. His victory phrase is 'prove that it doesn't work!'. I respond with 'Prove there isn't an invisible dragon living in my garden shed.'

He then tells me to stop being silly.

[Puppycow]

She didn't know the dates of birth of her own grandkids??!

Maybe she was asking about my in-laws and neices and nephews. I really don't quite remember because as soon as she said she needed the information because she was going to have a chart made I went through the roof and don't remember much else.

[Lisa Simpson]

I feel your pain too. My mom believes in astrology, ghosts and talking to the dead, and whatever quack medicine will cure her diabetes. Although she says she doesn't believe in astrology, the other day she told me that something I had done proved I'm a Virgo. We got into a discussion over ghosts once and I finally told her "let's just stop talking about this, because it's only going to make us both mad."

Oh, and then last week, my youngest son (he's 12) came into the living room and offered up some profound thought. Dash has always been a deep thinker. My mom insisted it's because he's "an old soul." Or maybe he's just a deep thinker!!!

Sometimes, it's amazing to me that I managed to overcome my woo thinking.

[chillzero]

Oh dear.
I hope my daughter never feels the need to come and rant about all the stuff I used to encourage her about. :blush:

[Lisa Simpson]

I'd be more okay with my mom's beliefs if - A. She didn't insist that I'm wrong and B. She didn't fall for every bit of quack medicine - which could be potentially harmful. The astrology and ghosts at least won't hurt her as she doesn't spend money on those.

[Paulhoff]

My mother (who I love) is a born-again and thinks that Bush is a great Resident.

Paul

:) :) :)

Yes, Resident

[Apology]

Both of my parents are pretty woo. I try to gently discourage them from spending too much money on it. In the end I'd rather have their love than be right all the time. :)

[schlitt]

I can sympathize. My parents are both christians, and my mother is a staunch homeopathy believer.
I vist them once a week for dinner, and almost every time we end up discussing their woo beliefs.
I am naturally an argumentative person, so the discussion can tend to get quite serious, and this really upsets my father, who is completely without any kind of debating skill.

I have come to the conclusion that they are logically and especially emotionally incapable of looking at the logic i provide to them, in a meaningful way. I will never be able to convince them, without expending a HUGE amount of effort, and going through a very unpleasant course of action.

I dont think upsetting my family over something that is never going to change is worth it. So I have decided to just let it slide, and try not be annoyed by it. (this is unfortunately easier said than done.)

[Puppycow]

I dont think upsetting my family over something that is never going to change is worth it. So I have decided to just let it slide, and try not be annoyed by it. (this is unfortunately easier said than done.)

Yeah. On my most recent visit the subject of woo never even came up. I don't bring it up with my parents, but I do react as a skeptic whenever I hear woo from them, like my mom's spontaneous comment about Feng Shui.

[Paulhoff]

I don’t argue with my mother about it, but I wish she would just keep her believes to herself. I also don’t need to hear from her who also is a born-again, it only makes me think less of them. Also with her being a born-again, a universe is now closed for discussion for us.

Paul

:) :) :)

[celia]

I'm curious - why the quotation marks around "organic"? Is buying/consuming organic generally considered woo? As an environmentalist, I generally consider supporting organic industry to be a helpful environmental practice.

[schlitt]

Yeah. On my most recent visit the subject of woo never even came up. I don't bring it up with my parents, but I do react as a skeptic whenever I hear woo from them, like my mom's spontaneous comment about Feng Shui.

I can understand this, i find it very hard to resist trying to interject with logic when any kind of woo is being discussed, whoever it may be.

[Tricky]

My mom, who I credit with almost everything that I like about myself, was also a terrible woo. I grew up listening to stories about Edgar Cayce, the Sleeping Prophet. I believed all sorts of stories about ghosts (usually friendly ones) and spiritual occurrences. Because of her, I damn nearly memorized Linda Goodman's Sun Signs and thought The Amazing Kreskin really had the sixth sense.

But when I began to question my religion (Episcopalian) she was totally sympathetic. She was a Christian, but not a bible-thumper. She said that every thinking person has to answer questions for themselves. She was disgusted by the hate-filled theology preached by the Ku Klux Klan (in my early years) and the Moral Majority (in my later years). She was a truly liberal Christian.

It was hard, in her declining years, for me to discuss how I had found so much of what she had believed to be unsupported. Mostly I didn't discuss it. I think she began to realize it as well, because she stopped talking about Cayce quite some years before she died. I don't know if she ever stopped believing.

I do know this. She had no use for quack cures. When she got breast cancer, she started reading all the solid medical information she could find and that her doctors recommended. They (the doctors) were amazed by how much this elderly woman knew about the latest cancer treatments and their pros and cons. She asked intelligent questions and listened intelligently to the answers. She lived many years past her original diagnosis. I think her skepticism and genuine quest for real answers was why.

Okay, I'm getting into tribute mode and ignoring the thread. Puppycow, give your mom a little break. People sometimes believe things because they are creatures of their environment. Given a chance, they may surprise you with their rationality. Don't belittle her beliefs. Talk about them. Explain why you don't believe them, but don't say they are out-and-out wrong.

And even if you never convince her of anything, she is your mom. She's probably given you so many good things, you can forgive her for not being right about everything. It's hard to be right about everything.

[Wildy]

Reading though this as well all I can say is why is it that mothers seem to be the ones more affected by this rubbish?

[Puppycow]

I'm curious - why the quotation marks around "organic"? Is buying/consuming organic generally considered woo? As an environmentalist, I generally consider supporting organic industry to be a helpful environmental practice.

Not in the same sense as astrology or homeopathy, but I do think it should be considered skeptically.

Brian Dunning does the Skeptoid podcast and he had an episode on the subject of organic food.
The transcript is here (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4019)

Organic methods require about twice the acreage to produce the same crop, thus directly resulting in the destruction of undeveloped land. During a recent Girl Scout field trip to Tanaka Farms in Irvine, California, one of the owners told us his dirty little secret that contradicts what you'll find on his web site. Market conditions compelled them to switch to organic a few years ago, and he absolutely hates it. The per-acre yield has been slashed. Organic farming produces less food, and requires more acreage.

Many so-called environmentalists generally favor organic farming, at the same time that they protest deforestation to make room for more agriculture. How do they reconcile these directly conflicting views? If you want to feed a growing population, you cannot do both, and soon won't be able to do either. If you support rainforest preservation, logically you should oppose organic farming, particularly in the developing world. On the other hand, if you demand organic soybeans, then you should have the courage to stand up and say that you don't care whether black and brown people around the world have enough to eat or not.

I'm not making this stuff up. For every dreadlocked white kid beating a bongo drum in favor of organics, there is a Ph.D. agriculturist warning about its short sightedness and urging efficient modern agriculture to feed our growing population. Personally I like forests and natural areas, so I favor using the farmlands that we already have as efficiently as possible. This benefits everyone. I say we dump the useless paranormal objections to foods freighted with evil corporate hate energy, and instead use our brains to our advantage for once. When we find a better way to grow the same crop faster, stronger, healthier, and on less acreage, let's do it. We all benefit.

[rats]

My mom,
... snip the long post, please go back and read it...
That really moved me Tricky, but not sure how nominating TLA Dictator would be perceived around here (I've been away some months)!

My mum has gone through many beliefs over the years, but after many calm and careful questions she's now very sensible. No more astrology, homeopathy, Chinese herbs, or even religion... yey!

My dad is a lost cause. We agree to disagree and he's careful not to go on too much about his latest cult/conspiracy theory/general woo (unless there's a bottle of whisky involved!) as he tends to lose and go off in a huff. His beliefs makes him happy (as well as broke and rather cut off) and he still loves me, so I think things are OK.

Anyway, thought I'd put a spanner in Wildy's hypothesis.

And going back to the OP... as has been stated many times (and much more eloquently) by Randi, intelligence can never be a guarantee of scepticism!

[tkingdoll]

My mum is naturally woo but listens to me, fortunately. I've diverted her away from a lot of crap, including a recent thought about buying copper bracelets.

When I was small, though, there was a lot of daft superstition in the house. She believed very much in gypsy curses, telepathy, etc.

Now, she's just mildly batty instead. She was just here, telling me a news story about some firemen. She said "they were driving along in their fire machine".

Fire machine!!!

[RSLancastr]

Reading though this as well all I can say is why is it that mothers seem to be the ones more affected by this rubbish?There have been various threads here debating whether women are more prone to woo beliefs than men.

It seems to me (and some others) that women are more prone to the "soft/emotional" woo (psychics, tarot readers, mediums, etc) while men are more prone to the "hard/pseudoscientific" woo (conspiracy theories, UFOs, cryptozoology).

[BrianSI]

Ditto Tricky.

Well said.

[ksbluesfan]

That's nothing. Try being married to a woman who tells you that you're not really an atheist.

:boggled:

[RSLancastr]

That's nothing. Try being married to a woman who tells you that you're not really an atheist.I recently got an email at the StopSylviaBrowne site from a Christian woman, thanking me for what I was doing with the site. She had read on the site that I was agnostic, and said "I don't think you're as agnostic as you say you are!"

I replied that atheists tell me the same thing. :D

[grunion]

I was raised by my parents as a dyed-in-the-wool Athiest with outright hostility to religion. For example, we were Jews and lived in a Jewish neighborhood but would always bring home a pizza on Yom Kippur.

But my mom, now in her 70s, went on a elderhostel trip to China and came back telling stories of how she and others in her group were cured of various ailments through the use of acupuncture, kinesiology, and other forms of Chinese medicine. There's one she swears by that involves having a piece of mung bean taped to some special pressure point in your ear (depends on the ailment you're trying to cure). So, for example, whenever she feels a headache coming on she presses on the mung bean and the headache goes away. She claims a friend of hers successfully uses it to quit smoking by halting the urge for a cigarette.

I can't help but roll my eyes when she goes on about that crap so she likes to try to convince me that it is anything beyond the placebo effect but I won't argue the point with her. Whatever makes her happy.

[EatatJoes]

...I am naturally an argumentative person, so the discussion can tend to get quite serious...I dont think upsetting my family over something that is never going to change is worth it. So I have decided to just let it slide, and try not be annoyed by it. (this is unfortunately easier said than done.)

I have to share my confrontation w/ a friend's mom this weekend. She works for a chiro, a bat rule8 crazy chiro. I knew that I was going to be sharing some space with this woman so I told myself to behave. Well, I just couldn't.

She mentioned that her employer wanted to buy another machine for her practice. I inquired on what kind of machine she wanted. Now, I was expecting to hear about some spine aligning miracle gadget. Nope, her employer was mulling over the purchase of this (http://www.8candlesonline.com/detox/ionfootbath.html). Instead of quipping "did you run the machine w/o your feet in it to see if the water still got dirty?" I blurted out "That's a quack product! Pure baloney! It's a fradulent product!!". Well, that got her on the defensive (imagine that). And after some fuming we decided that the conversation just could not continue. Oh, this woman is just priceless. Anyway, I just couldn't control myself.

Rant/ I've realized that the reason I can't let things like that go is because people like that hurt other people. This woman doesn't go to the doctor. She doesn't need one because she gets free chiro care from her employer. She doesn't need mammograms because the radiation from the process is bad for you. I will guarantee you that her employer encourages patients to not vaccinate their children. I cannot just stand there with my mouth closed while people spout that kind of nonsense. /Rant

Ah, I feel better, well no I don't. I just don't think I'm mature enough to handle that kind of woo.

[LudicrusSextus]

Nope, her employer was mulling over the purchase of this

I can't post links yet, but go to badscience.net and search for "rusty results". A highly entertaining debunk of this twaddle.

[Tipush]

I don't remember any woo-talk in my house as a kid. We were brought up as jews (according to the religion, a born jew is always a jew), which means mostley family meetings during holidays (how can you say no to food good, free, food???)
Once my mom's cancer returned the third time, one of her friends recommended this faith healer guy somewhere on the other side of the world. Both my parnets went to him, and I felt it's better to shut up at this point. When they came back I asked my father what happened and my father (78 years of age at the time) said:

"We went there, he did his stuff, and healed a liver condition I never knew I had, anyway it's gone now" and was laughing. But he also said that my mother had very short time to live, so we might as well hope this guy CAN help somehow if at all, just for our mom.

On the other hand, a month before she died he bought her medicines for $2000, those meds are legitimate and he knew it's too late to help her, but he didn't want her to feel we weren't trying.

to be honest, I don't think she believed this guy as well, but she would've tried anything at that point.

Bottom line is, sometimes, it's just doesn't worth arguing, cause those are the things you will take along with you for the rest of your life.

[Puppycow]

There have been various threads here debating whether women are more prone to woo beliefs than men.

It seems to me (and some others) that women are more prone to the "soft/emotional" woo (psychics, tarot readers, mediums, etc) while men are more prone to the "hard/pseudoscientific" woo (conspiracy theories, UFOs, cryptozoology).

I thought my wife was pretty much immune to woo, but one day she told me that Princess Diana's death was no mere traffic accident. She was really convinced that the British Royal Family put a hit on her. I told her that accidents happen to famous people too. I'm not sure if I completely convinced her, but hopefully I did. She has some other issues that could probably be classified as 'phobias' rather than woo. For example, she's been terrified of postal mail ever since the Anthrax thing in the US back in 2001. She realizes that the fear is irrational but the fear itself is very real.

[shalomsteph]

Don't feel bad, this is my cousin (http://www.acupuncturenow.us/practitioner.htm)on the bottom. Smart kid. Really smart kid. Not sure what happened.

His mother insists that my near death experience (a ruptured aneurysm in my pons) does not need to be watched medically and I don't need to take precautions. I just need to see a chiropractor and get some acupuncture. No thanks...I will take my chances with regular MRIs and blood thinners, thanks.