Which would you choose - belief in God, your insanity, or solipsism?

[saizai]

PLEASE READ BEFORE ANSWERING POLL

Suppose that you're walking along one day in a park on a hilltop, perfectly sober, wide awake, and in good spirits. There does not appear to be anyone for miles around, and you have a clear view. You have never had any hallucinogens, nor any history of mental illness.

Suddenly, the sky turns into night; even the normal light pollution from your nearby city is gone, just a clear dark sky
with stars. The stars form themselves into a giant face, and you hear it talking to you in your head. It says that it is God, commands you to worship it, and gives you certain rules and tenets of faith to obey.

The sky then clears, and you are back in daytime. You go back and ask if anyone else saw it, or if there were any predicted eclipses or the like, and the answer is no.

Do you
a) believe in this God and worship
b) believe in this God but refuse to worship
c) not believe, and think you've had a hallucination and/or have gone insane
d) not believe, and believe that the world is Solipsistic - i.e. that you're a brain in a vat, that it's *all* a dream, or the like.


Please note that there is no logical reason to choose one of these options over the others, since they are all compatible with the evidence.

Nevertheless, please explain why you would choose as you do as clearly as you can, even though you can't prove that it's the "right" thing to do.

[chulbert]

C.

[Mercer]

I can't know. But to be honest, it would probably depend on what the God said: if their commandments were obviously utterly nuts, I would be less likely to believe or obey.

[Jekyll]

c) People flip out everyday. Even (most) religious people don't think god does personal visits on a regular basis.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I'd figure it was all some elaborate trick put together by that guy who asked a silly question one time on the internet in a vain attempt to make the question seem less silly.

[NoAstronomer]

PLEASE READ BEFORE ANSWERING POLL

Please note that there is no logical reason to choose one of these options over the others, since they are all compatible with the evidence.

.

Actually yes there is. The options involving God are clearly at odds with the evidence gathered before the point where I start hallucinating. The hallucination doesn't add (or subtract) anything from my prior set of knowledge. Solipism is essentially un-falsifiable (sp?) anyway so why bother including it.

[madurobob]

None of the above. I would not believe, but pretend to worship.

I would not believe I had witnessed God, but I would probably go along with the rules and tenets out of sheer terror, unless they were just bat**** crazy. Any prankster who can pull that off deserves my respect. But, they'd have to do more than that to convince me of "God".

[Jimbo07]

PLEASE READ BEFORE ANSWERING POLL
The sky then clears, and you are back in daytime. You go back and ask if anyone else saw it, or if there were any predicted eclipses or the like, and the answer is no.
Do you
a) believe in this God and worship
b) believe in this God but refuse to worship
c) not believe, and think you've had a hallucination and/or have gone insane
d) not believe, and believe that the world is Solipsistic - i.e. that you're a brain in a vat, that it's *all* a dream, or the like.


Please note that there is no logical reason to choose one of these options over the others, since they are all compatible with the evidence.



Actually, a) and b) do conflict with the evidence, as you've presented it. Like NoAstronomer said, d) is unfalsifiable.

I'd answer c), but honestly, I'll tell you when it happens...

[boojum]

Insanity. "Sanity" and "normalcy" are a very thin veneer overlaying the complex processes occuring in the human brain. A breakdown of that veneer is the obvious way to bet.

[kellyb]

Insanity.
It happens. We know that. There's no disputing it.

Now, if there were some tangible evidence left after the episode that could verify it as something that actually happened outside of my own possibly malfunctioning mind, then I might start creeping up closer to "belief". But some random hallucination-like one off?

Probably some kind of psychotic spell.

[slingblade]

C.

The only thing (I can think of at the moment) that would change my answer to A or B is if everyone else saw and "heard" exactly what I did, too.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

My first wife claimed to be the second coming of Christ for about three months. I wasn't convinced.

~~ Paul

[Tanstaafl]

c) because hallucinations are known to be a real phenomenon, while it is not known that god is real. But it would make me wonder...

[JoeEllison]

Could be the CIA or aliens or one of those reality shows... why didn't we get any of those options?

[pchams]

C. It's obviously a flashback from some experimentation in my early years.
Just one of which would be sucking on mothballs (naphthalene) at about 3-4 years old. I thought they were candies. Who knows why I didn't spit them out until they were the size of peas. They must have tasted okay. I never tested the flavour theory again, but the trails and colours were spectacular on the night ride to the hospital. :D

[Meadmaker]

I'm the one vote for "believe and worship" so far.

It's kind of a Pascal's Wager sort of thing. If something that can do that wants worship, ok, what the heck.

Most people have gone with the "insane" route, but it's so difficult to judge yourself to be insane. How would you know? I would tell everyone, and if I really am insane, there will be plenty of time to lock me up and get me the proper meds and/or therapy. In the meantime, there will be no harm done in following the insanity.

ETA: It also might depend on what I was ordered to do. If ordered to kill a bunch of people, or commit some sort of crime, that might make me swing the other way. Again, it's based on a wager of what is likely to produce good results. If the voice tells me to preach the word of Starface on streetcorners, I've lost a few weekends and some self respect if I happen to be wrong. If it tells me to kill, there's a lot more at risk.

[saizai]

Actually yes there is. The options involving God are clearly at odds with the evidence gathered before the point where I start hallucinating. The hallucination doesn't add (or subtract) anything from my prior set of knowledge. Solipism is essentially un-falsifiable (sp?) anyway so why bother including it.

Things that are unfalsifiable are not (by definition) necessarily false. At some point, one may find it preferable to take on an unfalsifiable belief for pragmatic rather than purely logical reasons. So 'unfalsifiable' isn't really an attack that says it's wrong to believe something. :P

The experience is, clearly, a new one - but this itself does not mean that it is false either. There have been plenty cases of religious conversion at middle age, for people who until then had had no experience of a god, but then had one. I see no purely logical reason to be able to dismiss something like this - suppose God only wanted to contact you as an adult? *shrug*

Anyhow, the point of the question is just to see what you would do in cases where it's not easily possible to falsify *any* of the given options.

[saizai]

Also, note that I am not necessarily saying (for options A & B) that you have to believe that whatever-it-is is God, but that you believe that there is some sort of entity there (i.e. that it's not purely a malfunctioning inside your mind), whether it's the CIA or aliens or God or whatever. I very definitely did not say that you had to believe that it is the _____ god or the god of the ___ for any of them; just asking whether you believe in 'it', as an entity outside yourself.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Taffer]

On planet X we do...oh, wait, what?

[sinclairmcevoy]

Wow. Another poll on god. Lately it seems to be the most talked about thing on this forum. Are there no other dead horses to flog? Anyone who believes does not have concrete proof. Isn't that enough?

[plumjam]

most people have answered C

please realise that if you did you can no longer use the "If God exists why doesn't he show himself?" argument
if he did, to you it would be entirely without the intended effect.

[PixyMisa]

Plumjam, note this key factor:
You go back and ask if anyone else saw it, or if there were any predicted eclipses or the like, and the answer is no.
If God wants to show himself, he can bloody well show himself.

[Darth Rotor]

Plumjam, note this key factor:

If God wants to show himself, he can bloody well show himself.
Patience is problematic in this regard, as each generation feels it should be the (lucky) one to get the big reveal.

DR

[plumjam]

Plumjam, note this key factor:

If God wants to show himself, he can bloody well show himself.

like here, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

that didn't have much effect

[Darth Rotor]

PLEASE READ BEFORE ANSWERING POLL

Suppose that you're walking along one day in a park on a hilltop, perfectly sober, wide awake, and in good spirits. There does not appear to be anyone for miles around, and you have a clear view. You have never had any hallucinogens, nor any history of mental illness.

Suddenly, the sky turns into night; even the normal light pollution from your nearby city is gone, just a clear dark sky
with stars. The stars form themselves into a giant face, and you hear it talking to you in your head. It says that it is God, commands you to worship it, and gives you certain rules and tenets of faith to obey.

The sky then clears, and you are back in daytime. You go back and ask if anyone else saw it, or if there were any predicted eclipses or the like, and the answer is no.

Do you
a) believe in this God and worship
b) believe in this God but refuse to worship
c) not believe, and think you've had a hallucination and/or have gone insane
d) not believe, and believe that the world is Solipsistic - i.e. that you're a brain in a vat, that it's *all* a dream, or the like.


Please note that there is no logical reason to choose one of these options over the others, since they are all compatible with the evidence.

Nevertheless, please explain why you would choose as you do as clearly as you can, even though you can't prove that it's the "right" thing to do.
Intriguing as this hypo may be, none of your choices fit my estimation of my reaction. The first thing I'd do is call my older brother and talk to him about it. Not enough information to defend any of the choices you gave us.

Here is my problem. I don't know how many other people experienced the same thing I just did, in your hypo. My survival instinct is reasonably strong. If I go on about this, and am the only one who experienced it, the odds are that I'd eventually be locked away as a loony. It doesn't matter if I am right, it matters that I'd have real social issues to deal with were I to try and implement the orders of this being. Your hypo, providing I am the sole recipient of the message, is an invitation to get locked away for life in a loony bin.

Not interested.

DR

[ImaginalDisc]

I'm the one vote for "believe and worship" so far.

It's kind of a Pascal's Wager sort of thing. If something that can do that wants worship, ok, what the heck.

Most people have gone with the "insane" route, but it's so difficult to judge yourself to be insane. How would you know? I would tell everyone, and if I really am insane, there will be plenty of time to lock me up and get me the proper meds and/or therapy. In the meantime, there will be no harm done in following the insanity.

ETA: It also might depend on what I was ordered to do. If ordered to kill a bunch of people, or commit some sort of crime, that might make me swing the other way. Again, it's based on a wager of what is likely to produce good results. If the voice tells me to preach the word of Starface on streetcorners, I've lost a few weekends and some self respect if I happen to be wrong. If it tells me to kill, there's a lot more at risk.

You are a frightening individual.

[Darth Rotor]

You are a frightening individual.
Why does that frighten you? :confused:

DR

[Darth Rotor]

If the voice tells me to preach the word of Starface on streetcorners, I've lost a few weekends and some self respect if I happen to be wrong. If it tells me to kill, there's a lot more at risk.
Segue to scene on a street Corner

*Crowd wanders by as man stands up on a soap box.*

Meademaker clears his throat, and speaks:

"Say hello to my little dwarf star dogma!" :cool:

Thus would begin the Gospel of Starface.

DR

[ImaginalDisc]

Why does that frighten you? :confused:

DR

Without a shred of independently verifiable evidence, and believing it likely that he is insane, he'd rush and do whatever damn fool thing the sky-face told him, rather than getting mental help.

[pchams]

Questions like this are predicated on the amount of fear hardwired, or beaten into the human brain. What would Zappa say, or George Carlin.

I would need to be filled with profound fear to bow to any 'vision'...,and I may
not bow at that point.
I assume I am fodder for whichever deity has not revealed itself to me, no matter how unimaginary they may be. I yam what I yam.

Some people, I suppose, at least myself, don't concern themselves with questions which are impossible to answer.
I use a wheel barrow instead of carrying, if one is available.
In the same way, I can't concern myself with fears that have no basis in evidence. There are too many fears that do have that basis.
Ask me again, when the hierarchy of human needs has been modified.

[/disconnected thought]

[Meadmaker]

Without a shred of independently verifiable evidence, and believing it likely that he is insane, he'd rush and do whatever damn fool thing the sky-face told him, rather than getting mental help.


You misunderstand. If I start preaching the Gospel of Starface on the streetcorner, it's very likely that I will get mental help of the involuntary sort. If the experience is real, Starface is happy. If fake, I get locked up by people who will take care of me and stop me from seeing him again.

It reminds me of something a friend used to say, (probably quoting a comedian somewhere, but I didn't recognize it).

"The doctors tell me the voices are bad. The voices tell me the doctors are bad. I say, 'Who do I have to live with every day?' "

If you are seeing stars rearrange themselves in the sky, it's not a safe bet that you will be able to rationally analyze the situation independently and conclude that you are mentally ill. You might as well just go with the flow and see what happens.

[ImaginalDisc]

You misunderstand. If I start preaching the Gospel of Starface on the streetcorner, it's very likely that I will get mental help of the involuntary sort. If the experience is real, Starface is happy. If fake, I get locked up by people who will take care of me and stop me from seeing him again.

It reminds me of something a friend used to say, (probably quoting a comedian somewhere, but I didn't recognize it).

"The doctors tell me the voices are bad. The voices tell me the doctors are bad. I say, 'Who do I have to live with every day?' "

If you are seeing stars rearrange themselves in the sky, it's not a safe bet that you will be able to rationally analyze the situation independently and conclude that you are mentally ill. You might as well just go with the flow and see what happens.

You're fighting the hypothetical. The premise supposes you are rational enough to make a choice.

[saizai]

FWIW, the premise doesn't suppose that you are making some sort of thought-out choice, it just asks you how you'd react.

[Apathia]

http://h1.ripway.com/Apathia/PlanetX.JPG
Planet X, please!

[Complexity]

Oooooo!

[ImaginalDisc]

FWIW, the premise doesn't suppose that you are making some sort of thought-out choice, it just asks you how you'd react.

Fair enough.

[triadboy]

Which would you choose - belief in God, your insanity, or solipsism?

I guess it depends on the timeframe. I would be worshipping that talking star cluster like a mother for a few days. But if IT didn't contact me soon, I would get bored and return to my previous life of watching Oprah and eating pork rinds.

So I choose a combination of A and C.

[Complexity]

watching Oprah and eating pork rinds


There's some sort of disturbing redundancy here.

I react to both with 'Yuchhh'.

[Marquis de Carabas]

There's some sort of disturbing redundancy here.

I react to both with 'Yuchhh'.
Perhaps you'd prefer watching pork rinds and eating...

I can't finish that thought.

[Robin]

Yup, it's pretty safe to say that if I saw the stars form themselves into a face which told me to worship it then I would hie me off to the nearest psychiatrist, do not pass go, do not collect $200

[blobru]

I guess it depends on the timeframe. I would be worshipping that talking star cluster like a mother for a few days. But if IT didn't contact me soon, I would get bored and return to my previous life of watching Oprah and eating pork rinds...

Watching Oprah eat pork rinds, as she interviewed devotees of The Secret, if only -- I doubt life could get much sweeter than that. :)

As for the poll q, arranging the stars into a face, considering each of them is different light-years away, would be a helluva trick. It would mean "God" knew well in advance I was going to be there, pre-destination and all that, and rob It of the "free-will explains evil" defense. Which would make It an all-mighty prick, and not worthy of respect, so A's out. B's possible, but C's more likely since no one else saw it. Doesn't sound like insanity as I was rational enough to ask others if they saw it, so probably hallucination -- no big deal. D seems out of place: I reject solipsism because my brain would need to store and generate the world by itself and I'm about a gazillion synapses short of memory.

[NeoRicen]

I'd have to assume I'd gone insane and immediately go to a doctor.

[Henners]

You've missed off

(e) Tell him you're busy and ask if he wants to make an appointment.

[kellyb]

To clarify on my previous answer, I'd probably believe/worship for a while. Not sure how long. But at some point after I calmed down, I'd assume it was some kind of psychological thing.

[Beerina]

I voted for D, but if I am the only one who truly exists, and created worlds like this for me to live in, with a brain wipe before entry, so I could live in the illusion of having companions, the first thing I'm gonna do when I get out is punch myself in the nose.

I mean, would being the sheik with a big harem be so bad? What's your my problem!?!?!?!? :mad:

[NoAstronomer]

I voted for D, but if I am the only one who truly exists, and created worlds like this for me to live in, with a brain wipe before entry, so I could live in the illusion of having companions, the first thing I'm gonna do when I get out is punch myself in the nose.

I mean, would being the sheik with a big harem be so bad? What's your my problem!?!?!?!? :mad:

Who says that you're the one who created this (these?) worlds. Maybe you're the subject of a bizarre experiment by crazed scientists. Who, incidently, are keeping the harems for themselves.

[bignickel]

So many people here willing to go to the nuthouse.

The answer is:
e. super advanced technology

I can keep my sanity, not live as a brain in jar, and not believe in god/s, all at the same time.

[Darth Rotor]

Without a shred of independently verifiable evidence, and believing it likely that he is insane, he'd rush and do whatever damn fool thing the sky-face told him, rather than getting mental help.
What if the only directive he got was "Go ye to Florida, and cut ID's lawn once per week, and wash his car once per week, and wax his car once per month, in service to ID, who is beloved in my sight." (Presume for the moment you have a car, and a lawn.)

Is that still frightening?

DR

[schlitt]

Perhaps you'd prefer watching pork rinds and eating...

I can't finish that thought.

I would rather hack my own toes off with a spoon.

[saizai]

(e) Tell him you're busy and ask if he wants to make an appointment.

Ballsy.

The answer is:
e. super advanced technology

This would count as a or b - if you believe that there is some outside entity causing it (rather than just your brain having a fart). See last my post's clarification.

[Loss Leader]

I was honest. If this happened to me, I doubt that I would be able to convince myself that I was insane. My ego couldn't take it. Thus, I'd have no psychological refuge except to believe the apparition.

[bignickel]

This would count as a or b - if you believe that there is some outside entity causing it (rather than just your brain having a fart). See last my post's clarification.

Ixnay.
a) believe in this God and worship
b) believe in this God but refuse to worship
It doesn't count as a or b. Those 2 choice reflect a being that exists outside reality (w/ some of it intruding into reality, depending particular religious beliefs)

Super-advanced technology exists entirely within reality. Therefore, it's not in your choices, therefore, it's choice e.

Given the choice between 'being outside reality' (never shown to exist) and 'being inside reality' (shown to exist aka I, you, and everyone else on the planet), Occam's razor has me go with the latter.

[Gregoire]

Very interesting question, Saizai. It seems to be a variation on the question: what would it take you to believe the other side's point a view? This is a very important question, indeed.

(I personally think critical thinking involves asking this question at some point to avoid the fallacy of "begging the question". ("Begging the question" for those who are unfamiliar with this is not what it sounds like and thus often misused. It actually refers to a formal debate situation when one assumes one's position about "the question" is true a priori.))

My response with regard to questions about God is as follows: If there is a being who is omniscient, all powerful and omnipresent, then said entity knows exactly how to convince me of his/hers existence beyond a shadow of a doubt. Indeed such a God knows this down to the subatomic level of chemical reactions in my brain.

All these reports of a deity intermittently revealing itself reminds me of how UFO pictures are always fuzzy or how prophecies are always so vague they can only be interpreted after the fact. If a deity really wanted us to worship him/her, I think she/he could figure out a simple way to get us to do that.

I vote C and of course, if there were a deity, he or she already knows that.

[linusrichard]

FWIW, the premise doesn't suppose that you are making some sort of thought-out choice, it just asks you how you'd react.

Oh! In that case, C, easy.

If I thought about it some more, I would consider obeying the commands, if they weren't too "out-there" - in a sort of improved version of Pascal's wager.

[ImaginalDisc]

What if the only directive he got was "Go ye to Florida, and cut ID's lawn once per week, and wash his car once per week, and wax his car once per month, in service to ID, who is beloved in my sight." (Presume for the moment you have a car, and a lawn.)

Is that still frightening?

DR

Yes. Doing anything, terrible or noble, merely because your imaginary friend tells you to, is frightening.

[saizai]

It doesn't count as a or b. Those 2 choice reflect a being that exists outside reality (w/ some of it intruding into reality, depending particular religious beliefs)

I didn't say that it has to exist outside reality. You're inserting something based on your belief in what 'god' means.

All I asked was whether you would believe that, essentially, "something (more powerful than you) did it". Rather than c) believing that it was nothing more than your brain malfunctioning, or d) rejecting the intuitive belief that there is an outside world altogether.

If you want to think of that something as aliens with advanced technology, that's fine by me.

Note, e.g., that I completely reject the use of the world "supernatural" in defining anything whatsoever, including even a deist or JC style god. (Because 'supernatural' is, apart from any other claimed properties of the entity in question, a self-defeating term.)

Very interesting question, Saizai. It seems to be a variation on the question: what would it take you to believe the other side's point a view? This is a very important question, indeed.

That's the idea, yes. But I find that it's easier to give people concrete examples for them to visualize and model, rather than asking them to hypothesize what would get them to change fundamental aspects of their worldview. If it creates a cognitive dissonance, then that'll show. If not, then it's not a viable tack. If their worldview is proof against all possible evidence, then it's either correct or not, but you have no way to know and no way to convince so you might as well just drop it.

If a deity really wanted us to worship him/her, I think she/he could figure out a simple way to get us to do that.

Personally, I have prayed sincerely when nobody was listening (other than any omniscient entities that might exist of course) and gave a very simple method for anyone to convince me that they are speaking in that entity's name: a passphrase. Say that passphrase - which I might add is an astoundingly unlikely but very short and simple thing for someone to say - and I will be very, very attentive. :)

However, this doesn't really answer the question I posed; it may be the case that the entity is not interested in negotiation or revelation on your terms, but still interested in revelation. Thus the OP.