What if... super-powers provably existed?

[DataPacRat]

There are a great number of fictional settings in which various sorts of paranormal, supernatural, or super-powered phenomena can, in fact, be proven to exist. DC's and Marvel's various super-hero universes are, probably, the best-known examples. Which started me wondering. In a world where men can leap over tall buildings, bend steel in their bare hands, fly, or perform even more spectacular stunts, and some less spectacular ones... how would that which in our world turned into the skeptical movement have evolved? For example, in 1964, in real history, Randi put up his first thousand-dollar reward for objective proof of the paranormal... how would his life have changed if someone had easily won that bet? Would Randi have bothered to denounce fraudulent claims, such as Uri Geller starting in 1972, or would he have focussed his attention on the real paranormal events instead? Would CSICOP have been founded in 1976, and even if it was, what form would it have taken?


(And yes, I know that some easy answers to all of the above are "it can't happen so why bother thinking about it" or "that universe would be such a different place it's impossible to even imagine what it would be like", but since they're kind of conversation stoppers, can we at least try to stretch our willing suspension of disbelief to entertain such notions without necessarily accepting them?)

[Southwind17]

There are a great number of fictional settings in which various sorts of paranormal, supernatural, or super-powered phenomena can, in fact, be proven to exist. DC's and Marvel's various super-hero universes are, probably, the best-known examples. Which started me wondering. In a world where men can leap over tall buildings, bend steel in their bare hands, fly, or perform even more spectacular stunts, and some less spectacular ones... how would that which in our world turned into the skeptical movement have evolved? For example, in 1964, in real history, Randi put up his first thousand-dollar reward for objective proof of the paranormal... how would his life have changed if someone had easily won that bet? Would Randi have bothered to denounce fraudulent claims, such as Uri Geller starting in 1972, or would he have focussed his attention on the real paranormal events instead? Would CSICOP have been founded in 1976, and even if it was, what form would it have taken?


(And yes, I know that some easy answers to all of the above are "it can't happen so why bother thinking about it" or "that universe would be such a different place it's impossible to even imagine what it would be like", but since they're kind of conversation stoppers, can we at least try to stretch our willing suspension of disbelief to entertain such notions without necessarily accepting them?)

If it's 'entertainment' you're after I suggest you go back to reading said comics from whence you came. Seriously, I don't think you'll get the kicks you're hoping for here with this particular post, but I might, of course, be wrong! :confused:

[DataPacRat]

It's not so much 'entertainment' I'm looking for, as a thought experiment.

For example, the idea that at least one person could jump several stories high... from our perspective, that would be a 'paranormal' event, but from the perspective of a world in which it had been reliably observed, would it still be one, or a 'normal' one instead?

What this thought process is leading me to, is to try to consider what sort of events /do/ occur in the real world would be considered supernatural from another perspective. Is the difference merely the method of examination used, or the entire social background of what's considered believable?

[Southwind17]

It's not so much 'entertainment' I'm looking for, as a thought experiment.

For example, the idea that at least one person could jump several stories high... from our perspective, that would be a 'paranormal' event, but from the perspective of a world in which it had been reliably observed, would it still be one, or a 'normal' one instead?

Who currently holds the World record for the men's high jump? Do you consider that record jump a normal or paranormal feat?

What this thought process is leading me to, is to try to consider what sort of events /do/ occur in the real world would be considered supernatural from another perspective. Is the difference merely the method of examination used, or the entire social background of what's considered believable?

I think 'another perspective' is too vague a term to solicit a meaningful answer. ANYTHING'S possible in science-fiction! You need to define or visualize the physical parameters under which your experiment is being conducted before you can hope to get a meaningful answer. IMO, everything thereafter is capable of being judged scientifically against those parameters, as it currently is with the here and now.

[JoeTheJuggler]

If someone had easily won the Challenge way back, I suspect whatever "supernatural" phenomenon had been demonstrated would turn out to have very natural explanations.

If ESP were demonstrably real, for instance, before long all the questions that raises would begin to be answered--like what brain structures are involved? what physical means of transmitting and receiving a signal are being used? does the ability drop off with distance? can it penetrate all manner of barriers made of matter? etc.

In other words, if it's real, it is not supernatural.

As to what Randi would have done, I don't know. I'd guess he would 've taken an interest in the fledgling science he helped place into the realm of science (and out of pseudoscience or paranormal research). I also suspect that his pursuit of fraudulent claims would have continued.

For the comic book question, I have the same response. If a power were real, then how would it be "super"? (The only way that's carried of in comic books is that those "universes" are horribly logically inconsistent, and play fast and loose with science.)

[Scott Haley]

When something that should be impossible according to scientific theory happens, a good scientist makes observations and then revises the theory. In the DC comic "Animal Man," a scientist living in a world with Superman, Green Lantern, and all the others tried to make sense of it all. He eventually learned that he lived in a comic book.

There are people who think there's a good chance that we're living in a computer simulation of a world, as in the film "The Matrix." The existence of Superman would be evidence that that was the case. How can a man fly faster than light and move planets with his bare hands? The programmers of reality wrote him a loophole.

[Hokulele]

One of the problems with a thought experiment applying super powers to the real world, is that even in the comics, each power is unique. Whether it is by birth (Superman), accident (Spiderman), or by extreme effort and unlimited funding (Batman), each superhero is an individual, with no apparent duplication in their own fictitious worlds.

Now, looking at this from the real world, it would be like saying that there is only one person in all of history for whom ESP provably works. Other than as a curiosity, how would this be helpful to science? Individual exceptions to rules are interesting, but without repeatability, it becomes very difficult to find some applicability. I suppose one could do an autopsy or DNA analysis to see how the power came to be, but if life followed comics, there would be no way to apply the knowledge to anyone else.

[The Atheist]

For example, in 1964, in real history, Randi put up his first thousand-dollar reward for objective proof of the paranormal... how would his life have changed if someone had easily won that bet?

Assuming it had been won honestly - say by a telekinetic - I think the world would be a vastly different place to the one we now inhabit.

We wouldn't be ruled by science, but by magic, because while it doesn't follow that one successful paranormality demonstration doesn't prove any other bits of paranormality, it would prove that magic is possible. I think that would have made an enormous difference to western society in particular. Scepticism as we know it wouldn't exist - how can you have StopSylviaBrowne when Uri Geller really is psychic? There would be an entirely different face to religion because it wouldn't take the sky-fairy long to be credited with it, and it would be fairly difficult to deny.

Investment would have changed the face of science with money being poured into projects we consider paranormal. If telekinesis is possible, why not astral travel? We could investigate the universe next week if we can make astral travel work.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if magic were real, I'd be spending as much time as possible doing magic myself. You've given me an idea for a thread though. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3037148#post3037148)

[ChaoticLimbs]

If super-powers existed and had been shown to exist in scientific trials, then skepticism of a person's purported paranormal ability would still be rational up until the time that individual had shown that he or she could do as he or she claimed.

A boring answer.

[Complexity]

If 'super-powers' actually existed, then they would be natural and subject to the same 'laws of nature' that everything else is.

We'd have to determine whether our current understanding of reality needed extension, which would be the task of scientists.

[Southwind17]

Assuming it had been won honestly - say by a telekinetic - I think the world would be a vastly different place to the one we now inhabit.

We wouldn't be ruled by science, but by magic, because while it doesn't follow that one successful paranormality demonstration doesn't prove any other bits of paranormality, it would prove that magic is possible. I think that would have made an enormous difference to western society in particular. Scepticism as we know it wouldn't exist - how can you have StopSylviaBrowne when Uri Geller really is psychic? There would be an entirely different face to religion because it wouldn't take the sky-fairy long to be credited with it, and it would be fairly difficult to deny.

Investment would have changed the face of science with money being poured into projects we consider paranormal. If telekinesis is possible, why not astral travel? We could investigate the universe next week if we can make astral travel work.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if magic were real, I'd be spending as much time as possible doing magic myself. You've given me an idea for a thread though. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3037148#post3037148)

Well said TA. But, alas, it wasn't won, so we are where we are. What does that tell us about the scenarios and questions raised above? ;)

[The Atheist]

Well said TA. But, alas, it wasn't won, so we are where we are. What does that tell us about the scenarios and questions raised above? ;)

Do you understand hypothetical questions?

[Southwind17]

Do you understand hypothetical questions?

Of course I do. Do you understand the term: 'read between the lines' and the ;) icon?

I was actually having a dig at woos and religion!

No need for paranoia TA; I'm not gonna pull you up all the time; only when you make false claims ;)

[TjW]

Do you understand hypothetical questions?

Well, consider a situation in which I didn't understand hypothetical situations.

[JA Demko]

Superstition covers such a wide variety of things that real-world superpowers wouldn't necessarily have an impact on all superstition. For example, if Superman were real that wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not there is afterlife.

[h0mesch00led]

something like that would open up the doors to science...

[In My Spare Time]

In the original scenerio, skepticism would not go after the comic book abilities since they would be supported by the evidence. Things not supported by evidence would still be subjectable to legitimate doubt. So if people could leap over tall buildings, bend steel in their bare hands, fly, or perform even more spectacular stunts, and some less spectacular ones... but ESP was still fictional then people would be skeptical of ESP.