Middleschoolers Face 10 years for Sexual Harrassment

[DRBUZZ0]

It's not surprising that things have degenerated to this, http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3693516&page=1

In the US, sexual harassment accusations in the workplace and elsewhere is the sort of thing that can destroy lives and companies. Now it's getting even more ridiculous.

Sexual harassment like grabbing a coworker or repeated passes obviously should not be tolerated, but unfortionately the litigation has gone far beyond that and now companies and schools realize that their very existence is threatened by sexual harassment lawsuits. This is the result.

To kids in the 8th grade were partaking in "Slap butt day" a stupid and juvenile joke which involved slapping the butts of classmates. Inappropriate? yes. Worthy of punishment? Probably. But did these kids get a talking to? A call to parents? Detention? Or have to speak to a counsiler?

Nope. They were taken to jail. Strip searched, placed in isolation, interrogated and brought up on charges of felony sexual harassment. They faced 10 years in prison and being labled as preditors for the rest of their lives.


Now, I'm not sure where to draw the line on what is "Sexual harrassment" but I can tell you what side this falls on.

And before somebody tells me to draw a line, LET ME EXPLAIN: It is a judgment call. It is done on a case-by-case basis. The fact that it's judgment is WHY WE CALL THE PEOPLE WHO DO IT JUDGES

However... the fact that this was not dismissed right away or that cops took it this far is evidence (IMHO) of very bad judgment.

The girls effected were not outraged but were pressured to make statements against the boys.

This is pretty bad for them because it's really really really hard... damn near impossible to win in this kind of case.


There's no "Innocence until proven guilty" in such cases. Rather, you need some sort of proof such as "the alleged incident happened four years before I was born" with verifiable records or "I have video tape of me at the super bowl with all 9 suppreme court justices at the time" to even have a chance of not losing. Of course, you will still loose your reputation/career/friends and such.


Of course, you have to be careful in the business world, as comments like "You want a screw?" are often followed by such statements as "NO NO you said the computer case was not on and... GAAA THE BURNING.. Stop with the mace" and then loss of career.

This is commonly known and why there is so much sensitivity training and extreme measures to avoid litigation, but I think it's just a sad commentary when it starts effecting middle schoolers.

[JoeEllison]

The whole thing is a consequence, I think, of the spread of right-wing authoritarianism. It is a combination of people wanting to have a rule for everything, passed down to them from a higher authority, and a worldview that sees very strict and merciless punishment as the solution to every problem.

[GodMark2]

Well, this had been discussed in several threads already, back when it actually happened. And it was already discussed why the prosecutor was forced by law to bring the maximum charges, and how the girls stories miraculously changed after they found out what people were saying about them, and how the papers always seem to talk about the maximum possible penalties, while leaving out the fact that the minimum penalty for these crimes is... nothing. And most importantly, the fact that two of the victims threatened to sue the school if the boys were not turned over to the police, for "encouraging a discriminatory environment".

So lets take this point by point.

To kids in the 8th grade were partaking in "Slap butt day" a stupid and juvenile joke which involved slapping the butts of classmates. Inappropriate? yes. Worthy of punishment? Probably. But did these kids get a talking to? A call to parents? Detention? Or have to speak to a counsiler?

Nope. They were taken to jail. Strip searched, placed in isolation, interrogated and brought up on charges of felony sexual harassment. They faced 10 years in prison and being labled as preditors for the rest of their lives.

They also faced ... a stern talking to! They were released within hours to their parents! Oh, the horror! Why focus on only the maximim possible penalty? Because it's more sensational that way. Who cares about the probably penalty? If only we had some to JUDGE which punishment they should receive.

Now, I'm not sure where to draw the line on what is "Sexual harrassment" but I can tell you what side this falls on.

163.305
(6) “Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person or causing such person to touch the sexual or other intimate parts of the actor for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of either party.

163.415 Sexual abuse in the third degree. (1) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the third degree if the person subjects another person to sexual contact and:

(a) The victim does not consent to the sexual contact; or

(b) The victim is incapable of consent by reason of being under 18 years of age.


Here's the line in Oregon. Whether or not the buttocks are "sexual or other intimate parts" is not clearly defined. Whether or not the boys were seeking "arousing or gratifying the sexual desire" is also questionable.

But "any touching" of "intimate parts" of anyone under the age of 18 is immediately "Sexual abuse in the third degree".


And before somebody tells me to draw a line, LET ME EXPLAIN: It is a judgment call. It is done on a case-by-case basis. The fact that it's judgment is WHY WE CALL THE PEOPLE WHO DO IT JUDGES

Oh, that's right, we do.

However... the fact that this was not dismissed right away or that
cops took it this far is evidence (IMHO) of very bad judgment.

Or evidence that the police had no choice, due to the laws of the state regarding such charges.

The girls effected were not outraged but were pressured to make statements against the boys.

Two of the four girls recanted their earlier testimony. Two held firm to their version of events. The news focused only on the two that claimed they lied once, and ignored the other two. Some of "The girls" were, indeed, outraged. In fact, one of the girls after the 'sentence' was carried out was quoted in the local paper as saying she 'didn't feel she should have given up, but was pressured by the adults'.

This is pretty bad for them because it's really really really hard... damn near impossible to win in this kind of case.

There's no "Innocence until proven guilty" in such cases. Rather, you need some sort of proof such as "the alleged incident happened four years before I was born" with verifiable records or "I have video tape of me at the super bowl with all 9 suppreme court justices at the time" to even have a chance of not losing. Of course, you will still loose your reputation/career/friends and such.

No, you only need to show that the evidence (video tape of them slapping the girls butts, the two remaining victim's testimony, the defendant's confessions, and multiple teacher's testimony) isn't sufficient to prove harassment. The boy's lawyers managed to get the early confessions and testimony thrown out, but several witnesses (the two remaining victims and teachers) later gave statements reaffirming what they originally said.

Then it comes down to the believability of the statements, and the interpretation of the video. In juvenile court, that's what Judges do. But it never came to that, as lawyers from both sides came to an agreement, with the boys admitting full fault and apologizing. The case was then terminated with prejudice (meaning it can't be reopened later).

[billydkid]

Welcome to the NWO.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Welcome to the NWO.

No thanks. Can't we just stay with the OWO? :mad:

[3point14]

No thanks. Can't we just stay with the OWO? :mad:

Isn't that just a perversion of the WOO?

[Checkmite]

They're not going to get ten years. Stop being silly.

[cloudshipsrule]

The whole thing is a consequence, I think, of the spread of right-wing authoritarianism.

I think it's more the result of left-wing nuttiness.

[JoeEllison]

I think it's more the result of left-wing nuttiness.

Yeah, except that you're wrong.

[Madalch]

But "any touching" of "intimate parts" of anyone under the age of 18 is immediately "Sexual abuse in the third degree".
How do babies get their diapers changed?

[DRBUZZ0]

How do babies get their diapers changed?

They don't. I can't even believe you would consider putting a baby in a diaper. They are not natural. However, because exposing their... parts... would be evil and unnatural diapers would make them get cancer, the only way of dealing with it is by having them kept in isolation and cared for only occasionally by the blind... I mean... sorry... visually challenged...

I mean... visually different in a way that in no way reflects badly on them or means that they're different beyond that and they contribute greatly to the diversity of society.

Um yes. Anyways, the babies, or rather the chronologically challenged... I mean chronologically different and not entirely developed but there's nothing wrong with that...

They just crap on the floor and then play with it. But that's all good, because it's natural crap and natural is good for you.


And... Please don't sue me if I offended anyone. There.. have I covered my bases?

[pgwenthold]

I blame the baby boomers. They are already responsible for some of the worst society has had to offer us (let's see, hippies, disco, yuppies, country line dancing (i.e. the rebirth of disco))

[cloudshipsrule]

Yeah, except that you're wrong.

Nope. The cultural changes which have occured over the last 3 decades in the US are the direct result of left-wing ideals, which indirectly have led to ridiculous cases such as the one this thread is discussing.

[DRBUZZ0]

Nope. The cultural changes which have occured over the last 3 decades in the US are the direct result of left-wing ideals, which indirectly have led to ridiculous cases such as the one this thread is discussing.

Yeah. Pretty much. Not that there weren't problems beforehand, but many of the left-wing ideals which are generally good are taken way too far.

For example I can both agree and disagree with hippies on things.

World peace would be good. Happiness is good. Music is good.

But showers are good too. And drugs are probably not good... at least not when they completely dominate your existence. And all that is organic is not necessarily good. Sex is good, but not when you never shower... then it's kinda nasty.

[Dancing David]

Nope. The cultural changes which have occured over the last 3 decades in the US are the direct result of left-wing ideals, which indirectly have led to ridiculous cases such as the one this thread is discussing.


I believe this case is over blown, but you are saying things without evidence. Prove your case. It is not the liberals that created this situation, thank you very much.

It is young men grabbing their penis and saying something suggestive at school that is the problem thank you very much, it is young men who think it is cool to grab a young woman's breast in school that are the problem. Or that it is socially acceptable to rape women in cars. Or harass the victim until she drops charges against the perpetrator. Many of the perpetrators in schools are what? The children of conservatives! The same parent who spoils their kid with a car and a lawyer when they perpetrate!

So what data do you have to support your claim that this is the fault of the liberals, some sound byte trashing Dr. Spock by some dude who never read Dr. Spock?

Let us also look at the facts, who determined Federal policy for the last thirty years? Who led the determinant sentencing laws?

[cloudshipsrule]

So what data do you have to support your claim that this is the fault of the liberals, some sound byte trashing Dr. Spock by some dude who never read Dr. Spock?

The same could be asked of the original post I responded to claiming the spread of right-wing authoritarianism is the culprit. It's not as simple as left-wing, right-wing, but my response was appropriate given the accusation I was responding to.

This thread was started in response to a specific instance where 8th grade boys slapped other people's butts. This is not about boys grabbing girl's breasts and their own penises.

JoeEllison said the boy's incarceration was the result of right-wing authoritarianism, which is ludicrous. The event was blown out of proportion because the schools are afraid of frivolous lawsuits filed by liberal parents who are appalled at bad boys being bad boys. I'm not excusing their behaviour.

I believe this case is over blown, but you are saying things without evidence. Prove your case. It is not the liberals that created this situation, thank you very much.

It is young men grabbing their penis and saying something suggestive at school that is the problem thank you very much, it is young men who think it is cool to grab a young woman's breast in school that are the problem.

This thread is not about the offense, but about the punishment. The boys should have been counseled by parents and faculty, and NOT arrested. From what you stated one can infer you think that the arrest of the boys was appropriate for their actions, and this is exactly what I was talking about.

It is the liberal mindset which has brought cases like this to the front page due to the ridiculous recourse demanded by fanatical parents. Who do you think wants to enact hate crime laws when there is no difference in killing someone because they screwed your wife or because they are gay? Who do you think wants to impose even more gun control laws when current laws aren't even being enforced? Who is constantly demanding new and tougher laws for cases exactly like the example mentioned at the beginning this thread? I can assure you it's not the far right imposing their authoritarian viewpoints. It's the far-left who doesn't know what else to do to change the path the US is on except to add legislation when everything needed to fix the problem is already available. I.E. Instill values and discipline and teach young men that it isn't appropriate to act in the manner in which these boys acted. Arresting them is not a fix, thank you very much.



Since you brought it up, I will say that the post-Spock generation’s lack of discipline is certainly a factor in the problems that the US is currently seeing in regards to lack of respect for laws and authority. I say that coming from a family of educators who has seen, first-hand, the changes in school children from 20 years ago to those of today who have zero respect for those in authority. 20 Years ago today a child would have never talked back to a teacher. Today it’s the norm. You tell me what has changed from then till now.

[JoeEllison]

May I present The Authoritarians (http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/)?

There's my evidence. Where's yours, besides years of listening to and being brainwashed by those same right-wing sources that are to blame for this problem?

[Checkmite]

...teach young men that it isn't appropriate to act in the manner in which these boys acted.

Something tells me this issue will likely not be a problem in the future at that school. Mission accomplished.

[cloudshipsrule]

There's my evidence. Where's yours, besides years of listening to and being brainwashed by those same right-wing sources that are to blame for this problem?


First: Which problem? The actions of the boys or the actions of the authority figures who arrested them?

If you think the mindset represented in the book is the norm for right-winged Americans, you are sorely mistaken. I'll grant you that there are idiots on the right that may have the mindset described in the book, but there also idiots on the left who are just as fanatical and dangerous.

[JoeEllison]

If you think the mindset represented in the book is the norm for right-winged Americans, you are sorely mistaken.
All the evidence bear it out. You'll note, if you read the book, that part of the mindset is a complete lack of self-awareness about their authoritarian mindset.

[cloudshipsrule]

Joe,

Do you think the arrest of the boys was appropriate?
Do you think the boys actions were 'boys just being boys' or were their actions an actual crime in the true meaning of the word?
Do you think the world would be a better place if there were no criminals in jail?
Do you believe it is always wrong to spank a child?

[pgwenthold]

There are two issues here, and, to a degree, it can be blamed on both left-wing and right-wing policies. The left-wing is certainly responsible for the heightened awareness and decreased level of acceptance of harrassment, of all forms. Thus, the fact that butt slapping and boob grabbing is now considered to be a serious problem comes from the left-wing's policies of having the government involvement in protecting its citizens, the "nanny state," if you will. Harrassment among kids is no longer dismissed as "boys will be boys." I think we can thank the left for that.

Meanwhile, we can thank the right for the "no tolerance, treat them as adults who committed a crime" policy that hauled these kids into the cop shop. The right prides itself as being "tough on crime" and is all about forcing tougher sentancing and penalties for criminals. This authoritarian approach does not originate from the left. Remember, the democrats are "soft on crime" because they want to "coddle criminals" and would rather subject them to rehabilitation as opposed to punishing them in jail. "Soft on crime" liberals are not the ones calling for 10 year old kids to be hauled to jail.

Thus, that 10 year olds are hauled to the police station for butt slapping is because of both the left and the right.

[cloudshipsrule]

The right prides itself as being "tough on crime" and is all about forcing tougher sentancing and penalties for criminals.

While this may be true, it is the left that would have us consider these children criminals and their actions crimes, which is, in my opinion, fanatical. I do not believe that those in power who favor the right would consider these children criminals and their actions crimes. Therefore, only speaking about THIS particular case, it is the left who is responsible for the arrest of the boys.

[pgwenthold]

While this may be true, it is the left that would have us consider these children criminals and their actions crimes, which is, in my opinion, fanatical.

And not all that accurate, either.

On what basis do you claim the left would consider them "criminals"?

They are juviniles. At worst, the left would claim they should be treated as juvinile offenders, which is not the same as criminals at all. Do liberals think that kids caught shoplifting should be thrown in jail? I don't think so.

It is the right that thinks that everyone who breaks the law is a "criminal" that belongs in jail. The liberals I know support the juvinile justice system, and do not generally support charging juviniles as adults.

[cloudshipsrule]

It seems that those on the left are more prone to consider an act against another person criminal regardless of how frivolous, including the actions of the kids in the example, and those on the right consider crimes against businesses and or more haneous crimes against individuals criminal while belittling actions like those of the boys slapping butts.

[JimBenArm]

Ah, I like how everyone makes these huge straw men of their political opponents when things like this happen! It's the fault of all the narrow-minded conservatives! No, it's the poofy-headed liberals! You're all meanies who want to throw everyone in jail! No, you're all softies who want to pat them on the head and let them go!

Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually have to live in the world you partisan boobs create cringe every time we hear these simple-minded platitudes from you. It's both your faults, because neither side listens to the other, and you both play to the lowest common denominators of your support. Neither side has any backbone or brains anymore, and this is the result.

If either conservative or liberal members could quit trying to score cheap points at the expense of the other side, maybe you could see exactly what the other side is arguing. But, if past experience is any indication, both sides will now open fire on me for daring to say they aren't 100% correct, and implying that their opponent has some humanoid characteristics.

So, ready on the right? Ready on the left? Ready on the firing line? Open fire!

[cloudshipsrule]

JimBen,

I'm in complete agreement with you!:)

[pgwenthold]

It seems that those on the left are more prone to consider an act against another person criminal regardless of how frivolous,

Yeah, damn that left for opposing harrassment, even taking it to the point of objecting to harrassment among the ranks of children. Fargin bastages.

Notice what you call "frivolous," I call "harrassment."

[cloudshipsrule]

Yeah, damn that left for opposing harrassment, even taking it to the point of objecting to harrassment among the ranks of children.

So objection equates to arrest being appropriate?

Notice what you call "frivolous," I call "harrassment."

I did not, however, call harrassment frivolous, but I do not think slapping of butts among 8th graders is on par with sexual harrassment in a workplace among adults where unsolicited, repeated advances are made. See the difference? I think what these boys did was wrong, but not criminal.

[pgwenthold]

I did not, however, call harrassment frivolous, but I do not think slapping of butts among 8th graders is on par with sexual harrassment in a workplace among adults where unsolicited, repeated advances are made.


Whoever said it was? Shoot, even given the circumstances as described, it doesn't come out that way. They were not treated in any way similar to how an adult would have been when charged with sexual harrassment.

Be careful when using matches around all that straw.

[cloudshipsrule]

They were not treated in any way similar to how an adult would have been when charged with sexual harrassment.

Be careful when using matches around all that straw.

How in hell can you not see the similarities when the boys were ARRESTED and taken to JAIL. If anything, they were treated worse than some adults who would have been accused of sexual harrassment. At least an adult would have been given a little time after the allegations before the subsequent arrest and/or picnic at jail.

[Beerina]

I did not, however, call harrassment frivolous, but I do not think slapping of butts among 8th graders is on par with sexual harrassment in a workplace among adults where unsolicited, repeated advances are made.

Whoever said it was?


Those with the legal power to use force said it was, which is the whole problem.

[pgwenthold]

How in hell can you not see the similarities when the boys were ARRESTED and taken to JAIL. If anything, they were treated worse than some adults who would have been accused of sexual harrassment. At least an adult would have been given a little time after the allegations before the subsequent arrest and/or picnic at jail.

Actually, this is the whole point! An adult would NOT be treated that way. There would be a very different process (mainly because the adult case would be a civil suit).

You admit it yourself. They were not treated like adults would have been.

[cloudshipsrule]

You admit it yourself. They were not treated like adults would have been.

That is not what I said. When you arrest and jail an 8th grader you've just treated that 8th grader as an adult and not a minor. A minor would have been couseled in the principals office with the parents of both parties involved. Get it?

[pgwenthold]

Those with the legal power to use force said it was, which is the whole problem.

How often is force used when dealing with "sexual harrassment in a workplace among adults where unsolicited, repeated advances are made"?

As I said, sexual harrassment is generally a civil suit. If this had been treated like sexual harrassment in the workplace, the kids would have been served with a lawsuit, not brought to jail.

[NobbyNobbs]

But "any touching" of "intimate parts" of anyone under the age of 18 is immediately "Sexual abuse in the third degree".

.

Which brings me to my question, which is now two questions.

1) Why was the boy strip searched six or seven times?

2) Does this constitute sexual harassment?

[Dancing David]

The same could be asked of the original post I responded to claiming the spread of right-wing authoritarianism is the culprit. It's not as simple as left-wing, right-wing, but my response was appropriate given the accusation I was responding to.

Okay. I agree.


This thread was started in response to a specific instance where 8th grade boys slapped other people's butts. This is not about boys grabbing girl's breasts and their own penises.

Ah but that is where the conservative zero tolerance policies come from. A response to the issue that occur in schools. Zero tolerance for violence, zero tolerance for drugs and zero tolerance fro sexual harassment is a conservative philosophy. The liberal philosophy is to judge the acts in context. Zero tolerance is a conservative ideal.


JoeEllison said the boy's incarceration was the result of right-wing authoritarianism, which is ludicrous. The event was blown out of proportion because the schools are afraid of frivolous lawsuits filed by liberal parents who are appalled at bad boys being bad boys. I'm not excusing their behaviour.

Now those are conservative policies enacted in a conservative climate of the last twenty years. Do you actually watch your local school board? Liberals are for 'inclusion’,’ healthy food'(like macrobiotic man), diversity and tolerance. Conservatives are the ones responsible for zero tolerance policies.

You do not actually know the politics of the plaintiffs, do you?



This thread is not about the offense, but about the punishment. The boys should have been counseled by parents and faculty, and NOT arrested. From what you stated one can infer you think that the arrest of the boys was appropriate for their actions, and this is exactly what I was talking about.

Your psychic powers are amazing. What would overblown mean?


It is the liberal mindset which has brought cases like this to the front page due to the ridiculous recourse demanded by fanatical parents.

Again, you assume the politics of the parents.

Who do you think wants to enact hate crime laws when there is no difference in killing someone because they screwed your wife or because they are gay?

Liberals said that burning synagogues or lynching blacks was a hate crime, what does that have to do with schools?

Who do you think wants to impose even more gun control laws when current laws aren't even being enforced?

What does that have to do with schools?

Who is constantly demanding new and tougher laws for cases exactly like the example mentioned at the beginning this thread?

The freaking conservatives, Zero tolerance is a conservative idea.

I can show the evidence if you wish.

I can assure you it's not the far right imposing their authoritarian viewpoints.

More FOX News drivel, I hope this ends better than your psychic routine did.

It's the far-left who doesn't know what else to do to change the path the US is on except to add legislation when everything needed to fix the problem is already available.

You mean like the Protection of Marriage Act?

You must be a newbie. You sure are not a sceptic.

I.E. Instill values and discipline and teach young men that it isn't appropriate to act in the manner in which these boys acted.

Taught by me and others everyday in school.

Arresting them is not a fix, thank you very much.

Hey, Psychic Larry I never said it was did I?





Since you brought it up, I will say that the post-Spock generation’s lack of discipline is certainly a factor in the problems that the US is currently seeing in regards to lack of respect for laws and authority.

Which just goes to show that you haven't read Dr. Spock, which was my point you are just sucking up FOX News spam and barfing it up. Read the book and get back to me. It is full of discipline.

I say that coming from a family of educators who has seen, first-hand, the changes in school children from 20 years ago to those of today who have zero respect for those in authority.

Me too. So what? I can blame the Regan's and Bushes if I want and Nixon too. School boards are overwhelmingly conservative.

20 Years ago today a child would have never talked back to a teacher. Today it’s the norm. You tell me what has changed from then till now.

Ronald Regan. Spoiled conservative parents spoiling their bratty children. Authoritarian parent who trash their child's self-control. Never spanked my son or daughter, they are both self-chosen atheists and very liberal. Funny thing never had a bit of trouble from them either.


What has changed is that the economic gap has grown greater. And conservative have domiunated the landscape for the last forty years.

[pipelineaudio]

The whole thing is a consequence, I think, of the spread of right-wing authoritarianism.

errr....

I seem to remember this sort of thing REALLY picking up steam when someone else was in charge

Including even thought policing to the point of changing the pronunciation of certain words

[slingblade]

It seems that those on the left are more prone to consider an act against another person criminal regardless of how frivolous, including the actions of the kids in the example, and those on the right consider crimes against businesses and or more haneous crimes against individuals criminal while belittling actions like those of the boys slapping butts.

You don't know many people who consider themselves to the Left, or Liberal, do you?

Please, keep speaking for me. Just keep confiding my apparently deepest secrets to the world, as if you know them.

If the day comes when you want to know what people really think, there won't be anyone still speaking to you, whom you might ask.

[Dancing David]

First: Which problem? The actions of the boys or the actions of the authority figures who arrested them?

If you think the mindset represented in the book is the norm for right-winged Americans, you are sorely mistaken. I'll grant you that there are idiots on the right that may have the mindset described in the book, but there also idiots on the left who are just as fanatical and dangerous.

Idiocy is evenly distributed.

[Dancing David]

It seems that those on the left are more prone to consider an act against another person criminal regardless of how frivolous, including the actions of the kids in the example, and those on the right consider crimes against businesses and or more haneous crimes against individuals criminal while belittling actions like those of the boys slapping butts.

God exists , so you say, just assertion.

You still haven't shown the politics of the plantiffs, go pray to Rush and O'Reilly for the salvation of your critical thought.

[cloudshipsrule]

You still haven't shown the politics of the plantiffs, go pray to Rush and O'Reilly for the salvation of your critical thought.

You've wowed me with your brilliance.:rolleyes:

Who's pushing hate crime bills?

[cloudshipsrule]

Never spanked my son or daughter, they are both self-chosen atheists and very liberal. Funny thing never had a bit of trouble from them either.


Are they really self-chosen atheists, or have they simply followed dad's footsteps? Seems it works both ways.

[cloudshipsrule]

I think we're in agreement that the arrest of the boys in this case was ridiculous.

[cloudshipsrule]

Please, keep speaking for me. Just keep confiding my apparently deepest secrets to the world, as if you know them.

If the day comes when you want to know what people really think, there won't be anyone still speaking to you, whom you might ask.

Slingblade, no offense, but, people on this board generalize about conservatives all the time. I'm simply returning the favor. In reality, I know now all of those who consider themselves democrats or liberal think the same way, nor are they as extreme as the next guy/girl. I also realize not all conservatives are bible thumping, zero tolerance, the Iraq war is awesome individuals.

Diversity is rampant.

[slingblade]

Then there's hardly any point in using such generalizations in an argument, is there? All it really seems to do is get a lot of people to respond "That's not how I think, and I'm _____!"

So, why use it?

[cloudshipsrule]

Then there's hardly any point in using such generalizations in an argument, is there? All it really seems to do is get a lot of people to respond "That's not how I think, and I'm _____!"

So, why use it?

I agree. I will refrain from using generalizations from this point on, as I do realize they aren't indicative of the whole.

[Dancing David]

Are they really self-chosen atheists, or have they simply followed dad's footsteps? Seems it works both ways.

See there you go again, half cocked and firing from the hip. Both my exwife and I tried very hard to not denigrate religion and such to my daughter. As we were both practicing pagans, she after the divorce, my daughter was exposed to Xianity and paganism. She has freinds who are Xians and Jewish. She prefers judaism but is still an atheist.

So wrong for my daughter.

My current adorable and not crazy wife is a moderate Xian who tends towards buddhism. She taught Sunday school until my adopted son was eight. he has religous family members and is very well aquainted with mainstream Methodism and familiar with Catholicism.

I have very little influence on his thought process in the regard to religion.

he has made his choice due to the behavior of most Xians that he is aquainted with. He thinks paganism is a crock as well.

So wrong on both counts.

[Dancing David]

You've wowed me with your brilliance.:rolleyes:

Who's pushing hate crime bills?

Funny how you ignored the rest of the post.

Again, I agree that there is foolishness on both sides. I still hold that it is conservatives who put zero tolerance into place in the schools, liberals are the ones who want acts judged in context.

Hate crime bills, what does that have to do with schools? You still are only asserting that the problem is liberal parents. I have sure seen conservatives wail and scream when their baby darling is denied some cherished nummy by the school. Like that guy who is winning the suit to send his son to a private school without even trying the public school.

there are no monolithic liberals and I suspect there are no monolithic conservatives as well.

Ah, for the Goldwater conservatives of my youth. I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. So I am an odd duck, I think that the current Fredral spending is ridiculous and that a flat tax of five percent would be a good thing.

[Dancing David]

I think we're in agreement that the arrest of the boys in this case was ridiculous.


No doubt , in schools suspension or Wednesday night school would be the best. As well as the same for all the student alleged to have engaged in the behavior.

[wolfgirl]

Yeah. Pretty much. Not that there weren't problems beforehand, but many of the left-wing ideals which are generally good are taken way too far.

For example I can both agree and disagree with hippies on things.

World peace would be good. Happiness is good. Music is good.

But showers are good too. And drugs are probably not good... at least not when they completely dominate your existence. And all that is organic is not necessarily good. Sex is good, but not when you never shower... then it's kinda nasty.Hey! I have to speak up in defense of us hippies!

Why does everybody think that hippies don't shower? I am actually quite obsessed with personal cleanliness and hygiene, to the point that it's a source of amusement to my friends and family.

As for drugs, they don't have to dominate your existence. Or even come a close second.

[Dorian Gray]

They're not going to get ten years. Stop being silly.Don't be too sure - remember the 17-year-old who is in prison for receiving fellatio from his 15-year-old girlfriend.

[cloudshipsrule]

So I am an odd duck, I think that the current Fredral spending is ridiculous and that a flat tax of five percent would be a good thing.

We're in complete agreement here as well.

I'm far from a staunch conservative, but I'm in disagreement with a lot of ideas stemming from the likes of Hillary and certain social programs also, so I find it hard to embrace one side or the other. For example: I believe welfare is great to get someone on their feet, but when an individual, fully capable of working, lives on welfare for the bulk of their lives, something is wrong with the probram.

[HumanBeast]

I'd like it if a guy slapped my butt (If he's not a predator, of course).


But I know many female wouldn't. They should just get 2 days suspendtion.

[DRBUZZ0]

I'd like it if a guy slapped my butt (If he's not a predator, of course).


But I know many female wouldn't. They should just get 2 days suspendtion.

That seems more reasonable. But I'm guessing that it probably was not meant in a sexual manner at all and probably is out of complete ignorance. If it's the first offense I'm not sure suspension would be the answer.

Although it would be reasonable, I tend to think that what these kids needed was more of a "You know it seems funny to hit people on the butts but especially with girls, it can feel like it's an invasion of their privacy or body and some people take that very seriously and feel upset about it. It's not a good joke to be doing that to classmates and especially members of the opposite sex." Kinda talk to the kids. Yeah, a suspension might be warented if it happened repeatedly, but I think they probably didn't expect it to be thought of in the way it was...

[gumboot]

How old are you in the 8th Grade?

-Gumboot

[DRBUZZ0]

It says they were 12 and 13 when they appeared at the preliminary hearing. However, I believe I read that they were both 12 when it happened.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I say they should be tazered.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/security2020/taserimage.jpg

[Dancing David]

That seems more reasonable. But I'm guessing that it probably was not meant in a sexual manner at all and probably is out of complete ignorance. If it's the first offense I'm not sure suspension would be the answer.

Although it would be reasonable, I tend to think that what these kids needed was more of a "You know it seems funny to hit people on the butts but especially with girls, it can feel like it's an invasion of their privacy or body and some people take that very seriously and feel upset about it. It's not a good joke to be doing that to classmates and especially members of the opposite sex." Kinda talk to the kids. Yeah, a suspension might be warented if it happened repeatedly, but I think they probably didn't expect it to be thought of in the way it was...

Sorry, that would be rational. However in my school distrcit and in many schools districts they already had that talk back in third grade. So there is no need to repeat it again, they know the rules, they have known the rules a long time by the time they get to middle school.

[Dancing David]

How old are you in the 8th Grade?

-Gumboot


12 to 15.