"Christ"mas Dinner

[Fritzdorf]

As is usual at this time of year, a sports club that I am a member of is organising its annual Christmas dinner.

I am happy to celebrate Xmas, as being a public holiday and a special time to spend with the family, but can't be doing with any of this birth of Jesus stuff. That's the same approach that almost everyone I know takes.

However, someone on the sports club committee likes to start the Christmas dinner by getting everyone to stand up and pray. I want to object to this, but don't know the best way to do this politely and effectively. I would love to be impolite, but don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker by my friends in the club who do not object so strongly.

Ideas?


Fritzdorf.

[Tricky]

As is usual at this time of year, a sports club that I am a member of is organising its annual Christmas dinner.

I am happy to celebrate Xmas, as being a public holiday and a special time to spend with the family, but can't be doing with any of this birth of Jesus stuff. That's the same approach that almost everyone I know takes.

However, someone on the sports club committee likes to start the Christmas dinner by getting everyone to stand up and pray. I want to object to this, but don't know the best way to do this politely and effectively. I would love to be impolite, but don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker by my friends in the club who do not object so strongly.

Ideas?


Fritzdorf.
You might volunteer to lead the prayer, then give some sort of secular sort of thanks and well wishes. I can't promise you that nobody would be offended, but it's hard to be too offended by someone wishing you happiness.

[triadboy]

Happy B-Day, Tricky.

Tricky's idea is good. "Let's all have a wonderful holiday and a great new year. Let's eat!"


If I were in that situation - I would probably stand up and keep my eyes open - looking around - sipping on a drink - and then when they were done - I would sit down and continue with the fun. Causing any kind of scene is not worth the 'pain' it would invoke.

[Hammer_of_Thor]

I am going through this right now with my family. I have told them that I am an atheist.
Last time they visited me we had dinner at my house. My dad asked me to lead the prayer since it was my house. I did. I dont remember what I said exactly but it was along the lines of.

" Thank you all for coming to visit. It is good to see my family. Lets enjoy the food and company tonight."

Nothing to do with thanking Jesus or God.

When I am at a place where a prayer is said I just sit there quietly. I kind of think about it like raising kids. You have to pick you battles when raising kids. Same thing when dealing with religious people. Some things are just not worth battling about.

[Beerina]

When my dad comes over, we ask him to lead the prayer. I wonder if he isn't doing it because he thinks we believe. He once told me he thought when we died, we died, that was it.

In any case, for the question raised, I would just stand politely, but not join in with the actual prayer.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Good suggestions, but I think maybe Fritz is asking how to address the topic ahead of time. It doesn't sound like he'll be the one called on at the event.

I do think it's more honest to object to a prayer--maybe by pointing out that it would be insensitive to all non-Christians who might be present--than to volunteer to do a "prayer" and then offer secular well-wishes.

[JoeTheJuggler]

If they reply that the mere fact that it's a Christmas dinner implies that everyone present is a Christian, ask them whether using the word "Thursday" suggests that they are devotees of Thor, or Odin for "Wednesday", or Saturn for "Saturday", or Julius Caesar for "July", or Janus for "January", or Caesar Augustus for "August". . . .

[Jaggy Bunnet]

As is usual at this time of year, a sports club that I am a member of is organising its annual Christmas dinner.

I am happy to celebrate Xmas, as being a public holiday and a special time to spend with the family, but can't be doing with any of this birth of Jesus stuff. That's the same approach that almost everyone I know takes.

However, someone on the sports club committee likes to start the Christmas dinner by getting everyone to stand up and pray. I want to object to this, but don't know the best way to do this politely and effectively. I would love to be impolite, but don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker by my friends in the club who do not object so strongly.

Ideas?


Fritzdorf.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90341

You may be interested in this thread, on a related matter. My view would be to speak to someone else on the committee, make the point that it is not reasonable to expect others to participate in a religious observance and suggest that they speak to the member who wishes to do this.

[Madalch]

I would stand silently until they finish, then eat.

What I hate is when they wait to start praying until you've already put food in your mouth, so you have a choice of rudely chewing while they pray, or standing there with your mouth full for five minutes.

[tkingdoll]

While everyone has their eyes closed in prayer, hide the turkey.

[JoeEllison]

I sometimes do a little dance, in lieu of prayer.

[brodski]

If they reply that the mere fact that it's a Christmas dinner implies that everyone present is a Christian, ask them whether using the word "Thursday" suggests that they are devotees of Thor, or Odin for "Wednesday", or Saturn for "Saturday", or Julius Caesar for "July", or Janus for "January", or Caesar Augustus for "August". . . . If you want an argument go for this- even better depending on waht day of the week the meal is held on, demand a sacrifice for the pagen deity after which eth day is named.

I would stand silently until they finish, then eat.

What I hate is when they wait to start praying until you've already put food in your mouth, so you have a choice of rudely chewing while they pray, or standing there with your mouth full for five minutes. This woudl be my chocie if I was after a quiet life. there is no shame in quietly letting others get on with their religion, even fi ethy are trying to force it on you. It's meaningless ritual, why turn a social situation into a fight?

While everyone has their eyes closed in prayer, hide the turkey.

Actually, scratch that, teek has by far the bestest idea :D

[Elizabeth I]

Happy Birthday, Tricky! Texans have to stick together...and considering the humidity in Houston, "stick" is the mot juste...

[Miss Cranky Pants]

I am facing a similar situation with a couple of professional organizations I belong to. They usually begin with a prayer. In one organization, I can usually put up with it. But the other one, the members all read (or recite from memory) this opening prayer at the beginning of the meeting, and a closing one at the end. I am so offended, that I just quit attending meetings, and I haven't told anyone why. They haven't asked. I am very tempted to say something, but just haven't yet. Surely I can't be the only member who is bothered by all this? Oh, wait...I live in Texas...so maybe I am. :(

[DrewD]

Wait until everyone bows thier head and then pass gas.

[Complexity]

I no longer put myself in situations where someone is likely to pray.

[Erin]

Fritzdorf,

My view would be to just stand there. It's only once a years.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I am in situations where people pray but it's appropriate (like me doing a show at a church or me attending a religious wedding--and that's fine, as long as they don't expect me to participate in parying, which has never happened).

This doesn't sound like an appropriate situation. If the sports club has no religious affiliation, it's wrong for someone to assume it's OK to pray just because it's a "Christmas" dinner.

I think the "just stand there and be quiet" response would be OK if you didn't know about this ahead of time. I don't think Fritzdorf or anyone else is seriously considering disrupting the prayer in progress, or making a case about it during the dinner. (Though I'd probably want to speak with the organizers about it afterward, if I were blindsided like that.)

ETA: But what do I know? I still think it's inappropriate for opening prayers at Congress or for the President of the United States to offer prayers in public speeches.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I no longer put myself in situations where someone is likely to pray.
Friends, let us all join hands, bow our heads, and thank the good Lord for allowing Complexity to be with us here today.

[thaiboxerken]

However, someone on the sports club committee likes to start the Christmas dinner by getting everyone to stand up and pray. I want to object to this, but don't know the best way to do this politely and effectively.

Just tell him that you'd rather not cater to the superstitions of the savages.

[Complexity]

Friends, let us all join hands, bow our heads, and thank the good Lord for allowing Complexity to be with us here today.


Curse you, Red Baron!

Being out-thought by the likes of you... Irksome.

Just wait and see what happens to you in my dreams tonight.

[Fritzdorf]

Thanks for all the comments - both useful ones and funny ones (well, I assume the "hide the turkey" suggestion was a joke).

The best idea was to offer to say something myself in place of the grace. I can tailor it to allow the Christians and other religious types their opportunity to thank their Gods.

I certainly didn't want to disrupt the prayer while in progress, no matter how much I fantasise about loudly expressing my love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but rather do something pre-emptive without being seen to be a trouble-maker. While I disagree with their views, I still need to be able to get along with my team-mates.

Just standing and putting up with it is an option, but not the best one - last year I found it difficult not to let out a big sigh when I was told to stand up, and got a few evil looks. Even if I kept that to myself, I would feel awkward, and feel that I was betraying my rational-thinking principles.

Keep the ideas (and jokes) coming!

Fritzdorf.

[Erin]

In school, weddings, funerals, don’t ever remember making the decision not to pray, just remember not feeling comfortable and quite rebellious. Reached a stage, a bit older where I thought I would put my foot down and just not attend weddings and funerals but the pressure from family and friends was too much for this little rebel, so now I just do the token appearance then disappear about an hour later. Anyone else find it tough to stick to their own principles and beliefs?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

In school, weddings, funerals, don’t ever remember making the decision not to pray, just remember not feeling comfortable and quite rebellious. Reached a stage, a bit older where I thought I would put my foot down and just not attend weddings and funerals but the pressure from family and friends was too much for this little rebel, so now I just do the token appearance then disappear about an hour later. Anyone else find it tough to stick to their own principles and beliefs?

Not really, when someone invites me to a wedding I have a fair idea how much religion is likely to be involved - I either choose to endure it quietly or skip the churchy bit and go along for the party. Same with funerals, while some religious type who rarely knows the person witters on about heaven etc, I use the time to remember the person whose funeral I have chosen to attend.

Only time I ever felt uncomfortable was at a funeral when one of the hymns was "All things bright and beautiful" when they got to the line "the Lord God made them all" and I thought how much better it would sound with this boards more succinct "Goddidit!" inserted instead. Managed (just) not to laugh out loud.

[Erin]

Jaggy Bunnet,

Glaswegian? I like your usser name.
Glad someone agreed with me about funerals and weddings.
Never realised just how many of these things we feel obligated to attended.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Jaggy Bunnet,

Glaswegian? I like your usser name.
Glad someone agreed with me about funerals and weddings.
Never realised just how many of these things we feel obligated to attended.

Kind of Glaswegian, but haven't lived there for a very long time. Username stolen from a comedy clip by Billy Connolly mainly because of the reference to my football club.

I don't mind attending - the party is usually good enough to make up for an hour of dozing while the religious get their fix.

[Erin]

Billy Connolly - the first time I ever really laughed at anything.
Me? Glasgow born but live down south long time.

[Madalch]

Only time I ever felt uncomfortable was at a funeral when one of the hymns was "All things bright and beautiful" when they got to the line "the Lord God made them all" and I thought how much better it would sound with this boards more succinct "Goddidit!" inserted instead. Managed (just) not to laugh out loud.
I always think of the Monty Python version- "All things dank and dangerous, all creatures short and squat, All things dark and gangrenous, the Lord God made the lot."

Or something like that: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/104.html

[wolfgirl]

While I sympathize with those who don't want to "make a fuss," I feel pretty strongly about making a stand as an atheist. As long as we all remain quiet, nobody realizes how many of us there are, or knows that we can be good and decent people, too, or even thinks that their behavior might just possibly be offensive to us.

That stand, however, doesn't have to be rude. I would simply say that I - and possibly other non-xians - don't feel comfortable with the prayer thing and think that the speeches or whatever should be kept religion-free.

I'm reminded of how our really religious friends used to send out super-religious cards at xmas every year. Then one year, we sent out Solstice cards. Those friends were offended. They never thought twice about sending their beliefs to us in the form of a card, but somehow getting ours was traumatic!

The longer we continue not wanting to make a fuss or rock the boat, the longer we will remain an underclass. The only reason we don't have rights is that not enough of us are willing to stand up and demand them.

[Marquis de Carabas]

How true. I'm sick of not being able to vote and having to ride at the back of the bus just because I don't believe in God!

Oh... wait...

[Complexity]

While I sympathize with those who don't want to "make a fuss," I feel pretty strongly about making a stand as an atheist. As long as we all remain quiet, nobody realizes how many of us there are, or knows that we can be good and decent people, too, or even thinks that their behavior might just possibly be offensive to us.

That stand, however, doesn't have to be rude. I would simply say that I - and possibly other non-xians - don't feel comfortable with the prayer thing and think that the speeches or whatever should be kept religion-free.

I'm reminded of how our really religious friends used to send out super-religious cards at xmas every year. Then one year, we sent out Solstice cards. Those friends were offended. They never thought twice about sending their beliefs to us in the form of a card, but somehow getting ours was traumatic!

The longer we continue not wanting to make a fuss or rock the boat, the longer we will remain an underclass. The only reason we don't have rights is that not enough of us are willing to stand up and demand them.


:clap:

[Fritzdorf]

Some more great comments to thank everyone for since I last posted.

Of course, this does apply to weddings and funerals as well, although it's usually more difficult to persuade the master of ceremonies to leave out the god bit, and at a wedding quite difficult to duck out during the prayers but still be there for the touching parts.

Sometimes we perhaps do have to put up with it, so let's seize every chance we get to ditch the obligatory praying.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Some more great comments to thank everyone for since I last posted.

Of course, this does apply to weddings and funerals as well, although it's usually more difficult to persuade the master of ceremonies to leave out the god bit, and at a wedding quite difficult to duck out during the prayers but still be there for the touching parts.

Sometimes we perhaps do have to put up with it, so let's seize every chance we get to ditch the obligatory praying.

Weddings and funerals are different IMO. It is perfectly reasonable that they reflect whatever religious beliefs the participants have/had - if you are invited to attend then you can choose to do so (and that means not making a fuss about the religious bits) or you can choose not to.

It would be no more appropriate to ask the master of ceremonies to leave out the religious bits of a wedding/funeral that you were attending as a guest than it would be for a religious person to ask for them to be included at such an event they were attending as a guest.

[Malachi151]

Don't do anything, just remain quietly seated. You could be Jewish for all they know....