William Rodrigeuz vs Kevin McPadden

[MarkyX]

Just got this in the mail by a SCL fan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttlIXUmd3f0

Video proof of the constant revision of their stories.

[Unsecured Coins]

that video was faked!

[cyclonic]

obviously kevin mcpadden didn't practise his lines enough and why would the red cross be in on the countdown?
maybe alex jones thought the red cross touch would give the story credence.

[Swing Dangler]

obviously kevin mcpadden didn't practise his lines enough and why would the red cross be in on the countdown?
maybe alex jones thought the red cross touch would give the story credence.

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

[Unsecured Coins]

after seeing him change his story, how can you honestly say that with a straight face, swing?

[cyclonic]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

how come its on his radio? no one else has ever said they heard a countdown.

[nicepants]

So it went from "we heard a rumble"

to

"we heard an explosion that threw us up in the air, the walls and ceiling crumbled, the fire sprinklers went off and everyone was screaming"


I think version 2.0 probably sells more tickets.

ETA: Sounds like one of those movies "based on a true story" ;)

[Unsecured Coins]

how come its on his radio? no one else has ever said they heard a countdown.


wrong!! Mike The EMT did!! :D

[cyclonic]

"we heard an explosion that threw us up in the air, the walls and ceiling crumbled, the fire sprinklers went off and everyone was screaming"




thats when william hit his head,poor fellow.

[cyclonic]

wrong!! Mike The EMT did!! :D

pardon my ignorance, who is Mike The EMT?

[Dave Rogers]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

"Hi, is that the Red Cross? Over."

"Yes, what is it? Over."

"We want you to repeat a countdown for us. Over."

"What? er... Over."

"We want you to repeat a countdown for us. Over."

"Look, are you serious? Over."

"Sure, just repeat a countdown, will you? Over."

"Why the **** would I want to do that, for ****'s sake? We're the ****ing Red Cross, not the ****ing talking clock! Over."

"Look, I can't tell you why, I just want you to repeat a countdown for me over your radio. Over."

"Look, you sick ****head, stop tying up this ****ing radio channel, I'm trying to save ****ing lives here! Over and out."

Did it go something like that?

Dave

[Unsecured Coins]

you don't know Mike the EMT? This guy doesn't know Mike The EMT!!

Mike was a made up character who said he als heard a 20 second countdown of WTC 7. And Dylan RAN with this as TMOASG.

After the Mike hoax was found out, Dylan don't like talkin' bout it no' mo'

[cyclonic]

you don't know Mike the EMT? This guy doesn't know Mike The EMT!!

Mike was a made up character who said he als heard a 20 second countdown of WTC 7. And Dylan RAN with this as TMOASG.

After the Mike hoax was found out, Dylan don't like talkin' bout it no' mo'

LOL DYLAN AVERY IS A ................

[BenBurch]

see here; http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=94832

[NYCEMT86]

Please don't confuse me with Mike the EMT...that guy is a real d-bag


I do have one question, could this whole 321 count down thing be...Engine 321? I don't know if they responded to the WTC before or after the collapse of tower 1 and 2, but it would make sense.


ETA: Can't forget the 10 codes

[cyclonic]

Quote:
As far as my credibility goes... I was discharged from the AF with a General Discharge. Failure to report the witness of a crime, Its one time keeping my mouth costs me dearly. The details are thankfully sealed within my Squadron.

does any one know more about this? maybe his story is revenge for this episode.

[Undesired Walrus]

Just got this in the mail by a SCL fan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttlIXUmd3f0

Video proof of the constant revision of their stories.

Playing devils advocate, but are we not refuting the 'fog of war' confusion we so often use to refute CT claims?

[Swing Dangler]

after seeing him change his story, how can you honestly say that with a straight face, swing?

I haven't seen the change, Coins. Can you help a brother out?

[nicepants]

I haven't seen the change, Coins. Can you help a brother out?

Just to clarify...you did notice the significant changes that Willie made to his story, correct?

[16.5]

I haven't seen the change, Coins. Can you help a brother out?

Why are you asking Coins? Could it be that he was simply repeating the post and unaware of its implications?

[CHF]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

So a Red Cross worker listened to a countdown and then when it hit 'zero' WTC7 collapsed amidst a series of bangs...and yet the Red Cross person had no idea what just happened???

Please don't assume that everyone else is as slow as an average twoofer.

[Slayhamlet]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

Stundied.

[CptColumbo]

you don't know Mike the EMT? This guy doesn't know Mike The EMT!!

Mike was a made up character who said he als heard a 20 second countdown of WTC 7. And Dylan RAN with this as TMOASG.

After the Mike hoax was found out, Dylan don't like talkin' bout it no' mo'
I start getting lost when the acronyms exceed 4 letters. What does "TMOASG" mean?

[A W Smith]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?


Swing.. they don't do the happy new year thing in September. Thats late December and quite a few blocks north. Times Square. You might have heard of it???

[MarkyX]

Playing devils advocate, but are we not refuting the 'fog of war' confusion we so often use to refute CT claims?

I don't see that way.

The fog of war is used by mainly media reports and second hand information, not first person eyewitness stories like William and McPadden.

That's like me saying I witnessed a shooting, then a year later say it was a stabbing. Would this make sense? Could I be trusted? No, but that's exactly how William and McPadden is playing the truthers.

[WildCat]

I start getting lost when the acronyms exceed 4 letters. What does "TMOASG" mean?
The Mother Of All ...?

eta: Smoking Guns!

[Unsecured Coins]

I start getting lost when the acronyms exceed 4 letters. What does "TMOASG" mean?

the mother of all smoking guns

[negativ]

Red Cross "in on it"? Or could it be they were simply repeating the countdown and unaware of its implications?

Just because Alex Jones cultists follow Grampa Al around repeating his chants without the slightest idea what he or they are talking about, that's no reason to assume others possess a similar lack of self-awareness.

[RedIbis]

I haven't seen the change, Coins. Can you help a brother out?

Apparently, the massive change in story that Rodriguez is being accused of is changing the word "rumbling" to "explosion."

Apparently, he has also used the words "seconds" "two seconds" "a few seconds" and then used "7 seconds" to describe the time between the explosion below him and the impact above him. This apparently is the horrible mendacity which gives Gravy and others the carte blanche to assassinate his character.

If you keep asking the regulars here what exactly makes Rodriguez a liar, they will invariably point to these, as well as Rodriguez's claim that he is on the no-fly list.

I'd like to challenge Gravy to prove his research skills and explain to his cohorts why someone can be on the no-fly list and still fly. Some basic research should clarify this.

[T.A.M.]

Still waiting for Mr. McPadden (Kevinprime here on JREF) to return to answer the questions we have posed about his changing story...any word??

TAM:)

[RedIbis]

Still waiting for Mr. McPadden (Kevinprime here on JREF) to return to answer the questions we have posed about his changing story...any word??

TAM:)

What specific questions did you pose in this thread?

One thing I know for sure about this video is that whoever put it together needs some grammar and punctuation proofreading help, and quick.

[Slayhamlet]

snipage

I'd like to challenge Gravy to prove his research skills and explain to his cohorts why someone can be on the no-fly list and still fly. Some basic research should clarify this.

Why don't you just tell us rather than being coy?

Also, care to explain what you were on about in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=94318&page=5)? I'm still scratching my head.

[BenBurch]

Still waiting for Mr. McPadden (Kevinprime here on JREF) to return to answer the questions we have posed about his changing story...any word??

TAM:)

He has not returned my email to the address he gave.

[T.A.M.]

What specific questions did you pose in this thread?

One thing I know for sure about this video is that whoever put it together needs some grammar and punctuation proofreading help, and quick.

In this thread here...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=94832

My questions are in post 37,38,39

TAM:)

[SDC]

If you keep asking the regulars here what exactly makes Rodriguez a liar, they will invariably point to these, as well as Rodriguez's claim that he is on the no-fly list.

I'd like to challenge Gravy to prove his research skills and explain to his cohorts why someone can be on the no-fly list and still fly. Some basic research should clarify this.

Cut down by me to a specific point. This begs the question: is he on a no-fly list? Or did he just say he was? I wouldn't know, offhand, how to check that; things I've read suggest that the information isn't available, including to the no-fly-ee. (If that term is legit.) And that fact is generally known, at least the media often run the "they won't let my 85 year old grandma and my 2 week old baby fly but won't say why" stories, because they show the government at its silliest. And I expect R.Ibis would know that as well as anyone and if so, his challenge is Disingenuous 101.

[Slayhamlet]

Yep. The media would have a field day if Rodriguez were barred from a flight on account of his being on the no-fly list. Imagine the headline: "9/11 hero kept grounded by Federal no-fly list".

We all know how much of an attention seeker Willy is: there's no way he wouldn't have alerted the media had such a situation happened.

[RedIbis]

Cut down by me to a specific point. This begs the question: is he on a no-fly list? Or did he just say he was? I wouldn't know, offhand, how to check that; things I've read suggest that the information isn't available, including to the no-fly-ee. (If that term is legit.) And that fact is generally known, at least the media often run the "they won't let my 85 year old grandma and my 2 week old baby fly but won't say why" stories, because they show the government at its silliest. And I expect R.Ibis would know that as well as anyone and if so, his challenge is Disingenuous 101.

You're very much on the right track.

There are other specifics involved with people who get on the no fly list.

If the research here is so impeccable it shouldn't be hard to explain why Rodriguez is not necessarily lying. In fact, he's likely telling the truth.

[16.5]

Apparently, the massive change in story that Rodriguez is being accused of is changing the word "rumbling" to "explosion."

....

I'd like to challenge Gravy to prove his research skills and explain to his cohorts why someone can be on the no-fly list and still fly. Some basic research should clarify this.

Red Ibis, i gotta hand it to you, I don't think anyone would have guessed that in the remainder of your post you would have totally ignored the first point and somehow make it all the way to the no-fly list! Nicely done, that takes some fancy dancing, and you are the Arthur Murray of mendacity, and the Baryshnikov of baloney.

[WildCat]

If the research here is so impeccable it shouldn't be hard to explain why Rodriguez is not necessarily lying. In fact, he's likely telling the truth.
Did he take a boat to his UK tour?

[BenBurch]

Did he take a boat to his UK tour?

I hear you CAN still get passage on freighters sometimes.

[RedIbis]

Did he take a boat to his UK tour?

Does being on a no fly list prevent the person from boarding the plane?

[Jonnyclueless]

Stundied.

If thats not a winner, I don't know what is.

[BenBurch]

Does being on a no fly list prevent the person from boarding the plane?

You didn't REALLY just ask that question, did you?

SERIOUSLY?

[CptColumbo]

If thats not a winner, I don't know what is.
It's got very stiff competition from people who think the WTC was "comet-proof."

[BenBurch]

It's got very stiff competition from people who think the WTC was "comet-proof."

HUH?

[AZCat]

HUH?

Check out the October Stundies thread.

It's been a good month.

[chillzero]

If thats not a winner, I don't know what is.

Does being on a no fly list prevent the person from boarding the plane?

:boggled:

[RedIbis]

You didn't REALLY just ask that question, did you?

SERIOUSLY?

Do you know the answer?

[Unsecured Coins]

I do. If you are on the No Fly List... you CANNOT even board a plane.

[RedIbis]

I do. If you are on the No Fly List... you CANNOT even board a plane.

I am sure that those in this forum with superlative research skills will provide the info that proves you wrong.

This is an exercise in jref research and objectivity...

[Unsecured Coins]

should I call the DHS and ask them first hand?

[SDC]

If the research here is so impeccable it shouldn't be hard to explain why Rodriguez is not necessarily lying. In fact, he's likely telling the truth.

Cut down by me to remove the stuff which seemed coherent.

Eh? Please re-read that first sentence a couple of times. (The second sentence is just a statement of opinion, not advocating any action, and isn't problematic on those grounds.)

"If the research here is... it shouldn't be hard to explain why R. is not necessarily..." Somewhere in there, there is a thought which trying to emerge, but not having a whole lot of luck.

That sentence actually brings me back about 14 years, when (as a contract translator for JPRS) I translated an annual report of the Ukrainian equivalent of the IRS. I remember yelling over the phone to my manager: "It's all in passive voice! There isn't a active clause in the whole damned thing!" (Approximately. You see, it's much harder to translate that kind of thing, and Ukrainian, like Russian, is prone to using a lot of impersonal and passive sentences, in part a reaction to violence of the Soviet era.)

Anyhow, Mr/ Ms R.Ibis, could you re-phrase that so even the meanest intelligence (you are going to say "oh, that's you;" stipulated; let's move on) can follow it?

Dziekuje bardzo.

[RedIbis]

should I call the DHS and ask them first hand?

Why are you asking me for permission? It would be better than speculating, wouldn't it?

[RedIbis]

Cut down by me to remove the stuff which seemed coherent.

Eh? Please re-read that first sentence a couple of times. (The second sentence is just a statement of opinion, not advocating any action, and isn't problematic on those grounds.)

"If the research here is... it shouldn't be hard to explain why R. is not necessarily..." Somewhere in there, there is a thought which trying to emerge, but not having a whole lot of luck.

That sentence actually brings me back about 14 years, when (as a contract translator for JPRS) I translated an annual report of the Ukrainian equivalent of the IRS. I remember yelling over the phone to my manager: "It's all in passive voice! There isn't a active clause in the whole damned thing!" (Approximately. You see, it's much harder to translate that kind of thing, and Ukrainian, like Russian, is prone to using a lot of impersonal and passive sentences, in part a reaction to violence of the Soviet era.)

Anyhow, Mr/ Ms R.Ibis, could you re-phrase that so even the meanest intelligence (you are going to say "oh, that's you;" stipulated; let's move on) can follow it?

Dziekuje bardzo.

I rephrased it in post #50

[SDC]

I rephrased it in post #50

Thanks. Understood. You are suggesting that someone can fly, even if on a no-fly list. It seems very improbable but I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment sensibly.

And the nature of any original claim, as to whether one is or is not on such a list, could provide a lot of wriggle room.

[Disbelief]

Thanks. Understood. You are suggesting that someone can fly, even if on a no-fly list. It seems very improbable but I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment sensibly.

And the nature of any original claim, as to whether one is or is not on such a list, could provide a lot of wriggle room.

But, I am sure that there is a case where someone was able to fly who was on the no-fly list. That way, he can hope to say that it is possible and therefore it is not a lie for William to say he is on the list but was still able to fly.

[RedIbis]

Thanks. Understood. You are suggesting that someone can fly, even if on a no-fly list. It seems very improbable but I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment sensibly.

And the nature of any original claim, as to whether one is or is not on such a list, could provide a lot of wriggle room.

I agree. It's certainly not as cut and dried as some have made it out on this thread.

Rodriguez was called a liar for his claim, and the basis of this accusation was the flawed logic that because Rodriguez has flown he can't possibly be on the no fly list.

You obviously have the civility, humility and intelligence to understand this point.

[SDC]

You obviously have the civility, humility and intelligence to understand this point.

Hah! Wait till my wife hears this one...

[Calcas]

I agree. It's certainly not as cut and dried as some have made it out on this thread.

Rodriguez was called a liar for his claim, and the basis of this accusation was the flawed logic that because Rodriguez has flown he can't possibly be on the no fly list.

You obviously have the civility, humility and intelligence to understand this point.

Rodriquez answered this question at lcf in June.

QUOTE (seanm @ Jun 7 2007, 09:09 PM)
William,

Going on your European trip, how were you able to get around the No-fly list you're on?

(Rodriguez answers)

Under AFTA- you are to be questioned. If no record, they have to let you go. I will loose my plane, so I always plan ahead.
WR


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10411&view=findpost&p=13778161

EDIT: A quick google of AFTA shows nothing relevant. What is he referring to?

[Dave Rogers]

Does being on a no fly list prevent the person from boarding the plane?

Just in case I'm the only person here who can be bothered to Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

The No Fly List is a list created and maintained by the United States government of people who are not permitted to board a commercial aircraft for travel in the United States. It buttresses the Secondary Security Screening Selection that tags would-be passengers for extra inspection.


http://www.epic.org/privacy/airtravel/foia/watchlist_foia_analysis.html

The documents establish that the TSA administers two lists: a "no fly" list and a "selectee" list, which requires the passenger to go through additional security measures. The names are provided to air carriers through Security Directives or Emergency Amendments and are stored in their computer systems so that an individual with a name that matches the list can be flagged when getting a boarding pass. A "no fly" match requires the agent to call a law enforcement officer to detain and question the passenger. In the case of a Selectee, an "S" or special mark is printed on their boarding pass and the person receives additional screening at security. The TSA has withheld the number of names on each of the lists.


Two sources, although admittedly one of them is Wikipedia. It seems fairly clear that persons on the no-fly list are not allowed to board an airliner. If Rodriguez has been repeatedly delayed but allowed to board, that seems to suggest that he is on the "selectee" list rather than the "no-fly" list. That sounds to me more like confusion than deliberate lying.

Dave

[Unsecured Coins]

51- TSA’s no-fly list contains the names of individuals that pose, or are suspected of posing, a threat to civil aviation or national security. Individuals on this list will not be permitted to board an aircraft. There is also a selectee process by which individuals who meet certain criteria are set aside for additional screening.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06597t.pdf

do we want to talk about false positives now?

[Sabrina]

*raises hand* I worked at TSA for several months on my last project. If you are on the no-fly list, you are denied boarding; it's as simple as that. The sole reason there is a no-fly list is to identify individuals that could conceivably pose a significant threat to aircraft or air travel in general (even if there's no evidence they would do so on that particular flight). I'm sorry RedIbis, but you're wrong. If the person is identified, via the picture ID EVERYONE must present in order to identify themselves to airline personnel, as being part of the no-fly list, they are denied boarding. And no explanation has to be given either. Just "sorry, we can't allow you to board, bye now" is all that's needed. Or less even.

[Unsecured Coins]

BLAM. This thread will be abandoned by Red in 3, 2, ...

[Sabrina]

Rodriguez MAY be on the Selectee list, which would be why he would undergo additional screening at security, or he could just be unlucky enough to get the random pick every time. But to suggest that he's on the No-Fly list when he HAS flown is ludicrous on the face of it.

[mortimer]

Maybe I missed this somewhere else, but is it conceivable that Mr. Rodriguez is on the no-fly list, but has only flown on flights originating and landing outside the U.S. (e.g. Canada)?

ETA: Happy Birthday, Sabrina!

[Unsecured Coins]

it would also be concieveable that Willy would also say that's how he did it instead of "they pulled me aside and questioned me"

[Calcas]

Rodriguez MAY be on the Selectee list, which would be why he would undergo additional screening at security, or he could just be unlucky enough to get the random pick every time. But to suggest that he's on the No-Fly list when he HAS flown is ludicrous on the face of it.

I think WR perhaps simply misunderstands the difference between the "no-fly" list and the "selectee" list. English doesn't seem to be his first language.

Of course, on the other hand he MAY WELL know the difference yet continues to falsely claim to be on the no fly list in order to somehow inflate his standing within the CT world. He's a dangerous guy, ya know?

[HyJinX]

it would also be concieveable that Willy would also say that's how he did it instead of "they pulled me aside and questioned me"

Did he then fall down at near free-fall speed?

[BenBurch]

Do you know the answer?

Of course, and so do you.

[jhunter1163]

I hope Rodriguez got taken to a private room for a Special Screening. His lies really irritate me.

And happy birthday Sabrina!

[BenBurch]

I hope Rodriguez got taken to a private room for a Special Screening. His lies really irritate me.

And happy birthday Sabrina!

I believe the Kitty is on the case.

[Arus808]

it would also be concieveable that Willy would also say that's how he did it instead of "they pulled me aside and questioned me"


or that one is selected randomly for additional screening/scrutiny. I was subject to this twice and all they do is pull you aside from the security checkpoint, and ask you what bags/items are yours. they pull you to the side to another table, have you sit in a chair, and they open your bags/items to examine it personally. they may ask you questions as to "where are you going" and purpose of the trip.

he may have confused this "extra" scrutiny (which adds maybe 5 more minutes in the security check station) as being "you've been tagged". if that extra 5 minutes is causing him to miss a plane, well, he's not following the "please add an extra 1 hour - 1 1/2 hour" prior to plane leaving for security checks.

[Sabrina]

Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone! :D 29 doesn't seem so bad when you've got great folks wishing you happy birthday.

I would be interested to know myself if Willie was flying in the US or not. The No-Fly list only applies to flights originating in or flying to the US; even if the airline in question doesn't participate in screening the passengers (i.e. some of the foreign airlines, although most cooperate with us on this, as I understand it), it's when they hit customs and immigration that they're flagged, stopped, and questioned, typically. If they're on the No-Fly list, they get turned right back around and sent out of the US, because technically, until you pass customs, you're still on international soil, even if the airport is physically within the boundaries of the United States, both CONUS and OCONUS. Plus, as Arus said, it's entirely possible that he's only been unlucky enough to be the random person chosen for extra screening (the odds are highly against it, but it's still possible to be chosen randomly each time you fly. I've gone through it a few times myself; I just got unlucky enough to be chosen). Or, he could be on the Selectee list. But there is no way in heck, unless he hasn't flown into or out of the US itself, that Willie Rodriguez is on the No-Fly list.

[Arus808]

also, he could have been flagged for simply traveling to certain countries.

[AZCat]

Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone! :D 29 doesn't seem so bad when you've got great folks wishing you happy birthday.

29? Good times.



Oh yeah - happy birthday.

[BenBurch]

Happy Natal Anniversary, Sabrina!

[Unsecured Coins]

bumped for Red's response.

[RedIbis]

*raises hand* I worked at TSA for several months on my last project. If you are on the no-fly list, you are denied boarding; it's as simple as that. The sole reason there is a no-fly list is to identify individuals that could conceivably pose a significant threat to aircraft or air travel in general (even if there's no evidence they would do so on that particular flight). I'm sorry RedIbis, but you're wrong. If the person is identified, via the picture ID EVERYONE must present in order to identify themselves to airline personnel, as being part of the no-fly list, they are denied boarding. And no explanation has to be given either. Just "sorry, we can't allow you to board, bye now" is all that's needed. Or less even.

And there's the rub. Since the gov't doesn't have to explain itself a guy like Rodriguez can be held, detained and then allowed to board. His status is not available to him, therefore, you cannot say for sure whether he's on a selectee list (that sounds eerily like 1930s Germany) or the no fly list.

[SDC]

And there's the rub. Since the gov't doesn't have to explain itself a guy like Rodriguez can be held, detained and then allowed to board. His status is not available to him, therefore, you cannot say for sure whether he's on a selectee list (that sounds eerily like 1930s Germany) or the no fly list.

Dibs! DIBS!!! First reference to Nazi Germany! (bolding mine) What's that law about online conversations... Darn, it's not Gresham's law... Murphy's, no... 3rd law of aerodynamics... Oh, nuts.

[LashL]

And there's the rub. Since the gov't doesn't have to explain itself a guy like Rodriguez can be held, detained and then allowed to board. His status is not available to him, therefore, you cannot say for sure whether he's on a selectee list (that sounds eerily like 1930s Germany) or the no fly list.

You forgot the most likely possibility, which is that he is on neither list.

However, it is clear that if he is flying out of the U.S., he is NOT on the "no fly" list as he keeps claiming.

[RedIbis]

Dibs! DIBS!!! First reference to Nazi Germany! (bolding mine) What's that law about online conversations... Darn, it's not Gresham's law... Murphy's, no... 3rd law of aerodynamics... Oh, nuts.

Hmm, despite the love of unique jref slang and insular reference, you don't get to co opt unfortunate but accurate analogies.

It must hurt, but in this regard, a secret, "selectee list" or "no fly" list which is beyond any transparency or accountability is going to draw its own comparisons.

Don't worry, I'll make an Orwell reference, too sooner or later.

[SDC]

Hmm, despite the love of unique jref slang and insular reference, you don't get to co opt unfortunate but accurate analogies.

It must hurt, but in this regard, a secret, "selectee list" or "no fly" list which is beyond any transparency or accountability is going to draw its own comparisons.

Don't worry, I'll make an Orwell reference, too sooner or later.

This is too great a challenge.

1/ What did I say that is "unique jref slang"? I still haven't gotten my handbook so I doubt I even could.

2/ "Insular reference"?? That hurts. Well, I work in/ on Manhattan. That's insular by definition; it's an island. Are you referring to my use of "dibs"? That's mostly generational.

I regard my co-optation as entirely legit. There is some sort of sardonic "law" about how quickly online conversations start making Nazi analogies. I just can't remember the name and hope someone else will.

This is also a historical challenge. The idea of legitimate "analogies" between the 21st century US and 1933-45 Germany is so much hogwash. Where are the death camps? Where are the real Gestapo? The Schutzstaffel? Uniforms everywhere? Professors lecturing in SS uniforms? Nights of Broken glass -- perhaps directed (in the present case) against mosques? As for internment camps, yes, there is G'mo, and it's wrong and ugly; and it's being rightly squeezed down, in large part thanks to the US legal system. Where is the Night of the Long Knives -- the violent fratricides among the governing elites?? (And don't say it's Rumsfeld walking the plank. He just got a cushy position at the Hoooover Institution at Stanford.)

Great god almighty. Just don't go there, OK? It makes your statements in general look cheap and silly.

And as for your second paragraph, let me point out that "list" is your subject and "is going to draw" the verb. In high school, when English class got slow, I would read the grammar book for amusement; oh, those misplaced modifiers -- oh, happy hours of youth! Please revise that paragraph!

[Gravy]

Dibs! DIBS!!! First reference to Nazi Germany! (bolding mine) What's that law about online conversations... Darn, it's not Gresham's law... Murphy's, no... 3rd law of aerodynamics... Oh, nuts.Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

[Unsecured Coins]

Stupid me was thinkin' Ol' Red was gonna prove us all wrong-like an' show us that a person on that thar no flyin' could get on an areoplane.

shucks.

[Sabrina]

And there's the rub. Since the gov't doesn't have to explain itself a guy like Rodriguez can be held, detained and then allowed to board. His status is not available to him, therefore, you cannot say for sure whether he's on a selectee list (that sounds eerily like 1930s Germany) or the no fly list.

You ENTIRELY missed the point.

ANYONE can be pulled out for increased screening. Do you know what that entails? A quick search of your carryon luggage and you providing proof that you are who you say you are, and maybe answering a couple questions about where you're going. At most the delay is twenty minutes, and TSA is working hard to ensure it could get down to five minutes or less. They aren't "detaining" anyone. Customs and Immigration is authorized to detain individuals if they are on a list (selectee or No-Fly, or even if they have visa issues) but once again, the only people actually denied entry into the US are individuals deemed to be a threat to national security; and trust me when I say, the list is probably smaller than you think. And by the way, I worked extensively with the people in charge of the two lists in question here, so I think I know a bit more about it than you do.

And it's not the GOVERNMENT that doesn't have to explain itself; it's the airline. They're the ones informing the person they won't be allowed to board, if it's a question of boarding. Typically what will happen is the person will be informed that they have been denied boarding under a specific subsection of a US Code (the number escapes me at the moment, but I'll try to look it up) and if they have questions, they can contact a representative at a number or address given to them. I think I don't need to say that hardly anyone questions it. Same goes for people denied entry; they are told the number and subsection of the statute in question and told if they have questions, they can contact a representative for answers. Once again, hardly anyone ever does.

Besides, this doesn't even address the point YOU brought up, RedIbis, about that idea you seem to have that someone on the No Fly list CAN fly, and we've proved that's not possible within the confines of the United States. The fact of the matter is, if Willie Rodriguez flew on a flight originating in or flying into the United States, he is NOT on the no fly list. And at this point there is only a small (as in less than one percent, by my estimation) that he is on the Selectee list. I know of no reason why he might be placed on that list; he has done nothing that indicates he may intend the US harm. Even the visit to Chavez probably wouldn't be enough, although I will admit I'm not 100% sure of that. Regardless, the likelihood is extremely low, in my estimation. It's far more likely that he simply had the bad luck to get chosen by the random draw for additional screening, something that several of us on here have mentioned we've gone through ourselves, I might add. Does this mean the "shills" are on the Selectee list, to your way of thinking?

[SDC]

Thank you Gravy: Godwin's Law. I have now bookmarked it in Wikipedia. Reading that article also led me to this evidently quite recent comment:

"In October 2007, the 'Last Page' columnist in The Smithsonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_%28magazine%29) stated that when an adversary uses an inappropriate Hitler or Nazi comparison, 'you have only to say 'Godwin's Law' and a trapdoor falls open, plunging your rival into a pool of hungry crocodiles."

What a good idea. And good for nature!

[BenBurch]

Actually, due to the scarcity of crocs, we have had to substitute Caymans and Alligators, and in one case Pirañas. But its the thought that counts, right.

[RedIbis]

There are thousands of names on the no-fly list, many of which contain false positives. Here's a simple example from a high profile case.

Ted Kennedy was prevented from boarding a plane because he was on the no-fly list. Did he get to board his plane after being detained?

This should answer the question of whether someone can show up on the list but still eventually be able to fly.

[BenBurch]

The minute your janitor has even 1% of the political pull Senator Edward Kennedy has I'll buy you the best steak in Chicago.

http://www.democraticwarrior.com/forum/images/smilies/BarkingMoonbat.gif

[chillzero]

There are thousands of names on the no-fly list, many of which contain false positives. Here's a simple example from a high profile case.

Ted Kennedy was prevented from boarding a plane because he was on the no-fly list. Did he get to board his plane after being detained?

This should answer the question of whether someone can show up on the list but still eventually be able to fly.

... at which point they are no longer on the no-fly list.

[Arus808]

You ENTIRELY missed the point.

ANYONE can be pulled out for increased screening. Do you know what that entails? A quick search of your carryon luggage and you providing proof that you are who you say you are, and maybe answering a couple questions about where you're going. At most the delay is twenty minutes, and TSA is working hard to ensure it could get down to five minutes or less.

I know i posted somewhere that I had gone through this; twice in the same trip (going and returning). Had nothing to do with my name, just a regular random "extra" screening that the TSA do.

[SDC]

I know i posted somewhere that I had gone through this; twice in the same trip (going and returning). Had nothing to do with my name, just a regular random "extra" screening that the TSA do.

I thought they only search 90 year old saintly grandmothers and 2 week old babies (the colicky ones). That is what it seems like, anyhow, from the outraged letters to the editor and such.

[Arus808]

well, those "outraged single moms and grannannies" , most of the time its their fault to begin with. its a random check, which anyone traveling should be accounting for as to when they should arrive at the airport.

Always remember, peek travel times are between 10 am and 4 pm in the after noon, And Fridays, Saturdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays are the most crowded. Get to the airport at LEAST 2 hours prior to your plane leaves, to account for lines, baggage checkin, and of course, the SECURITY line and the occasional, increased security check.

If traveling with infants by yourself, contact the airlines to assign you a porter to help you get through the lines and security.


Many times, what the 'people' are complaining about, can be avoided, if there was due diligence on the passengers part.

[RedIbis]

... at which point they are no longer on the no-fly list.

Perhaps that was true for the senator. But is it true for the many people who find themselves on this list? Can they be removed, petition DHS or even find out their status?

[Arus808]

Perhaps that was true for the senator. But is it true for the many people who find themselves on this list? Can they be removed, petition DHS or even find out their status?


Yes they can
http://www.cair-ny.org/HomePage/Article/Params/articles/1311/pathlist/s1001_o1218/default.aspx
http://www.thought-criminal.org/2007/08/26/how-to-get-off-the-no-fly-list


seriously Red, you are showing that you can't even do the most basic of research.

[DGM]

You know what I find funny about the no-fly lists. The people that complain the most about them, are the same people that argue that terrorists shouldn't have got on the planes in the first place.

[SDC]

It sounds pretty much that the whole "was WR on the no-fly list" question is something of a red herring. He does seem to get around without special hindrance. He may even have misunderstood, if indeed he was ever selected; or seen it as an opportunity for small-time self-promotion.

If no one objects to mixed metaphors, I'll say this is a tempest in a teapot as well a red herring. (A herring in a teapot?) Let's break for cake and coffee, OK?

Oh and R.Ibis, it looks as though you are just trying to prolong the thread. Please come up with a new topic. Or not, as you please. And look out for crocodiles.

[leftysergeant]

Godwin's notwithstanding, I do find disturbing parallels between the SS and Blackwater, especially in light of allegations that they hired former operatives of the Pinochet security apparatus.

[RedIbis]

You know what I find funny about the no-fly lists. The people that complain the most about them, are the same people that argue that terrorists shouldn't have got on the planes in the first place.

Well 14 of them were on the no fly list.

[RedIbis]

It sounds pretty much that the whole "was WR on the no-fly list" question is something of a red herring. He does seem to get around without special hindrance. He may even have misunderstood, if indeed he was ever selected; or seen it as an opportunity for small-time self-promotion.

If no one objects to mixed metaphors, I'll say this is a tempest in a teapot as well a red herring. (A herring in a teapot?) Let's break for cake and coffee, OK?

Oh and R.Ibis, it looks as though you are just trying to prolong the thread. Please come up with a new topic. Or not, as you please. And look out for crocodiles.

That is particularly cruel. The croc is an evil and prehistoric beast.

[SDC]

Godwin's notwithstanding, I do find disturbing parallels between the SS and Blackwater, especially in light of allegations that they hired former operatives of the Pinochet security apparatus.

I am wary of specific SS allusions; there may be parallels, but the overwhelming power of the SS image and reality, I think, serves to obscure comparisons more than to clarify cases. The SS began as the party leader's bodyguard, and ended up practically as the most murderous element of a state built on murder.

Now it would be interesting if we are seeing (in Blackwater and its ilk) the rise of an international network of ... mercenary companies? ... which will serve any master for any goal. That would be a "conspiracy theory" worthy of investigation and comment. And something really to be afraid of.

[BenBurch]

Godwin's notwithstanding, I do find disturbing parallels between the SS and Blackwater, especially in light of allegations that they hired former operatives of the Pinochet security apparatus.

Moreover I think Bush is a Fascist. But a LOT more like il Duce than Hitler.

[RedIbis]

I am wary of specific SS allusions; there may be parallels, but the overwhelming power of the SS image and reality, I think, serves to obscure comparisons more than to clarify cases. The SS began as the party leader's bodyguard, and ended up practically as the most murderous element of a state built on murder.

Now it would be interesting if we are seeing (in Blackwater and its ilk) the rise of an international network of ... mercenary companies? ... which will serve any master for any goal. That would be a "conspiracy theory" worthy of investigation and comment. And something really to be afraid of.

My comment was much more in line with Lefty's sentiment. I am keenly aware of how irresponsible analogies are to Nazi Germany. A "selectee list" just smacks of that totalitarian language.

My other point was that just because some kids on LCF like to throw around this comparison does not mean all comparisons are then invalid. History has a lot to teach, especially about abuses of power.

[BenBurch]

That is particularly cruel. The croc is an evil and prehistoric beast.

Evil? EVIL? How can you ascribe human motives to a reptile?

[RedIbis]

Moreover I think Bush is a Fascist. But a LOT more like il Duce than Hitler.

But Mussolini could ride a horse.

[RedIbis]

Evil? EVIL? How can you ascribe human motives to a reptile?

I was speaking as an emanation of my avatar. Granted, I infused it with my narrow human perspective.

[BenBurch]

But Mussolini could ride a horse.

Bush can ride Larry Craig.

[DGM]

Well 14 of them were on the no fly list.
Prior to 9/11, what was the agency that handled security and enforced this list for the airlines?

[BenBurch]

I was speaking as an emanation of my avatar. Granted, I infused it with my narrow human perspective.

That makes sense. :)

[leftysergeant]

Now it would be interesting if we are seeing (in Blackwater and its ilk) the rise of an international network of ... mercenary companies? ... which will serve any master for any goal. That would be a "conspiracy theory" worthy of investigation and comment. And something really to be afraid of.

This is one of the more disturbing aspects of gloabalism.

Blackwater is also in the business of training private security workers regardless where they will work when they finish training.

The McVeigh types do not even have to join the Army to get weapons training anymore. They can just take a pile of money to Blackwater and they know all the counter-measures they can expect to find in place when they are ready to launch their RaHoWa.

And the next banana republic Jeffe has a good pool of goons on whom to draw.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

There are thousands of names on the no-fly list, many of which contain false positives. Here's a simple example from a high profile case.

Ted Kennedy was prevented from boarding a plane because he was on the no-fly list. Did he get to board his plane after being detained?

This should answer the question of whether someone can show up on the list but still eventually be able to fly.


Holy flying crap...

Ted Kennedy, the senator, was not on the No-Fly list.

A senior administration official, who spoke on condition he not be identified, said Kennedy was stopped because the name "T. Kennedy" has been used as an alias by someone on the list of terrorist suspects.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug19.html

These "false positives" don't happen when a name appears on the list that shouldn't be there; they happen when an innocent flyer happens to have a name that also appears on the list.

The whole concept sort of eludes you, doesn't it?

[HyJinX]

Do you really need to ask that question?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well 14 of them were on the no fly list.


Uhh... after 9/11...

60 Minutes certainly didn’t expect to find the names of 14 of the 19 9/11 hijackers on the list since they have been dead for five years.

[...]

"We got a look at the No Fly List from March. And included on that list were 14 of the 19 September 11th hijackers. How do you explain that?" Kroft asks.

"Well, just because a person has died doesn't necessarily mean that their identity has died. People sometime carry the identities of people who have died," she says.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/05/60minutes/main2066624.shtml

You've really got to do better than this, RedIbis.

[hellaeon]

Apparently, the massive change in story that Rodriguez is being accused of is changing the word "rumbling" to "explosion."

Apparently, he has also used the words "seconds" "two seconds" "a few seconds" and then used "7 seconds" to describe the time between the explosion below him and the impact above him. This apparently is the horrible mendacity which gives Gravy and others the carte blanche to assassinate his character.



RIbis, this was glossed over, but the importance of the word 'explosion' to the truth movement is unsurpassed. Thats the problem. By changing it, it falls into the whole 'bombs' bs. Im surpised you even said this.
Similarly with the timelines. Your movement will grant 'carte blanche to assassinate' a NIST employees character when they say something adjar from the official report, but of course, your not accountable to the same level in your little world.

When you post, have a mirror by the computer.

[leftysergeant]

But Mussolini could ride a horse.

Il Duce could make the trains run on time and actually built infrastructure.

[Dave Rogers]

Il Duce could make the trains run on time and actually built infrastructure.

Actually, he couldn't. He just said he had.

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

Dave

[Sabrina]

Prior to 9/11, what was the agency that handled security and enforced this list for the airlines?

The FAA handled the No Fly and Selectee lists prior to 9/11, but the airlines themselves were responsible for contracting their security. Outside security contractors handled security at airports prior to the creation of TSA. 9/11 actually IS the reason TSA was created and is why airline and other transportation security is now handled by the government.

As for the false positives, RedIbis, do you have ANY idea how many aliases some of these guys can have? I've seen upwards of ten for ONE person! All it requires to find out if you're on the list or not is a simple providing of identification, because, as I've stated before, a picture ID MUST be provided when flying for identification purposes, and that ID will have an identification NUMBER, which will be verified by comparing it to the list. If it doesn't match, the person is not on the list and is let go with an apology. You are making this FAR more complicated than it really is, I'm sad to say. The procedures for handling the people who are flagged have been vastly improved since 2004, which is when that article came out, although I will admit they are still imperfect and require more improvement. Regardless, try searching for information a little less dated next time, kay?