Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Here's Mrs. Wolf's own explanation ...

Talk by Naomi Wolf - The End of America

RjALf12PAWc

Do you think she is correct in her consideration?



I will bet less than 2 view the talk.

[Ion]

Look at the timestamps for posts 206 and 207. A mere twenty minutes is nothing.
...

I looked at these posts.

You don't complain to the moderators about the editing within the timeframe allowed by moderators because:

your objective is not to be right, your objective here is to troll only.

...
Sure beats backpedaling.
What beats backpedaling though is that in addition to you not knowing your native language (see the meaning of innocence, integrity, honesty which escape you, see pot calling kettle back regarding grammatical errors), in addition to being a scientifically illiterate right-winger, you:

troll.
Long after.
Complain to the administrators that I edit within the time frame allowed.

You won't complain though, because:

you troll here.

[Ion]

See Pardalis -who never substantiated in this assertion made on Sunday October 28:
Thanks Skeptigirl for abandoning this thread to the loon.
...
his name-calling of "...loon...", neither his evidence for it- how he pulled a troll disappearing act from the thread (instead of evidence).

See also little Pardalis wishing to ally himself with skeptigirl to single out and attack "...the loon..." after he singled out and attacked skeptigirl two weeks earlier, sign of hypocrisy.
I posted earlier Pardalis two posts contradicting each other, sign of his double face.


Now, little Pardalis retreated in his Montreal swamp, lurking here, waiting for the next opportunity to troll again.

[Ion]

I know not the facts of this circumstance.

It is squirmy if the edit was done after others responded.
What I edited is the form, not the content.

English is not my native tongue, I post quickly under time pressure, and when I have more time I revisit my writing and change the form but not the meaning within the time frame allowed.

Even when English is a foreign language to me, I still master English better than the U.S. President Bush, though.

Better than jsfisher's English too, a poor native speaker.

If you have a problem with the time frame allowed for editing posts in this forum, contact the administrators.

They allow editing within a time frame, exactly for purposes like mine.
Also, Chickenhawks do not have teeth.

http://www.petcaretips.net/foghorn_henery.jpg
Chickenhawks do have teeth, and I am the dentist who pulls them out.

[Oliver]

Do you think she is correct in her consideration?

I will bet less than 2 view the talk.


Quite frankly - I don't think she's correct since Hitler was
more drastic than the whiny Bushies. But I understand that
people draw similarities here.

And from what I've learned about the broad education in
the US about the World outside their own borders and
concerning politics, I wouldn't wonder if America would
turn into a Dictatorship and not enough people would notice
it to prevent this happening.

The Patriot Act was a perfect example of that. Theoretically
the Act could have disabled congress and those Idiots would
have voted for it anyway without reading it... :boggled::rolleyes:

[Ion]

There's actually no such thing as a chickenhawk:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28bird%29
There is such thing as a chickenhawk.

In this regard, I have doubts about you.

It describes the right-winger neoconservatives from U.S. who talk tough but don't do what they preach.

[jsfisher]

Do you think she is correct in her consideration?



I will bet less than 2 view the talk.


I viewed it. I didn't find her convincing; too much confirmation bias.

I wonder what dictators before Mussolini did to gain control? For that matter, how many of the 10 evil things did the US have under Roosevelt during WWII?

[jsfisher]

(Double post.)

[Elizabeth I]

Stop lying. Next you'll be saying Tasmanian devils don't spin around at high speed and pigs don't stutter.

Thuffering thuccotash!

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I viewed it. I didn't find her convincing; too much confirmation bias.

I wonder what dictators before Mussolini did to gain control? For that matter, how many of the 10 evil things did the US have under Roosevelt during WWII?

She is showing how democracies advance.

[ronpaulisright]

You have been warned. If you fail to see the warning signs then you do that at your own risk. So please, look at the what's going on around you and you will see, america is steadily approaching a soft form of fascism. Any one that is labeled a "terrorist", can be sent to gitmo. How do you know EXACTLY whay gitmo is? It's secret. You don't know, I don't know so shut up about it! History shows that they're usually concentration camps/internment camps. I wish naomi would have brought up the asylum. You had jews fleeing to america before it was too late, and you have hundrends of iraqis fleeing to switzerland for asylum.

[Darth Rotor]

You had jews fleeing to america before it was too late, and you have hundrends of iraqis fleeing to switzerland for asylum.
Why don't the Iraqis flee to America? Are they worried about being around Jews, or is there something else going on? :cool:

[ronpaulisright]

Why don't the Iraqis flee to America? Are they worried about being around Jews, or is there something else going on? :cool:

You know the answer to that. Don't be coy.

[Travis]

You have been warned. If you fail to see the warning signs then you do that at your own risk.

Remember the people who were convinced the world would end at the turn of the millennium? Remember how foolish they looked? That's what happens when you see warning signs that aren't there and that is exactly the path you are on right now. We aren't laughing with you but at you.


So please, look at the what's going on around you and you will see, america is steadily approaching a soft form of fascism.

America is steadily approaching a soft form of fascism? Based on what? I look around me and you know what I see? I see the same America that was here ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. Sure the faces age with time and the giddy giggling children of twenty years ago are now having little giddy giggling kids of their own. But the trees still have vibrant leaves, the kids still play little league in the summer, the PTA still meets in the room at the school that has that smell no one's ever been able to get rid of and Mr Fulkerson still has that awful compost pile he insists on keeping and, to the distress of our noses, growing. What's changed? Where's the so called "soft fascism" that you go on about? I appreciate you are young, and as such are prone to seeing little changes as huge, potentially catastrophic even. But they aren't! Things do change and that is something you have to get used to.

I was once a young politically active firebrand myself. The night George W was declared victor I was stunned and......well scared. I was too young to remember much or Reagan or George H.W. Bush so Clinton was the only President I had really known. I was scared because for the brief time I had been into politics the idea had been to keep the conservatives out and like many I had constructed in my own mind many reasons why it would be disastrous to fail at that mission. I had visions of forced conversion to Protestant Christianity, of death camps for homosexuals, the banning of sex from movies, the end of legal abortions and so much more.

None of that happened.

You will eventually learn a maxim that will help you and, more often then not, be true. It is:

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Remember that.

Any one that is labeled a "terrorist", can be sent to gitmo.

Really. Why didn't Bush just have all his political opponents labeled "terrorists" and sent there. Would have made things much easier for him. Heck, why didn't they send this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui) there?

How do you know EXACTLY whay gitmo is? It's secret.

Yeah, real secret. Look at it here (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=19.902222,-75.098889&spn=0.3,0.3&t=k&q=19.902222,-75.098889), and tell me what neferarious purpose it's serving.

You don't know, I don't know so shut up about it! History shows that they're usually concentration camps/internment camps.

What? History shows that camps are usually concentration camps or that concentration camps are common? Either way that's wrong.

I wish naomi would have brought up the asylum. You had jews fleeing to america before it was too late, and you have hundrends of iraqis fleeing to switzerland for asylum.

Those Jews were fleeing an impending extermination of their race, so what are those Iraqis fleeing? The US?

[ronpaulisright]

Remember the people who were convinced the world would end at the turn of the millennium? Remember how foolish they looked? That's what happens when you see warning signs that aren't there and that is exactly the path you are on right now. We aren't laughing with you but at you.




America is steadily approaching a soft form of fascism? Based on what? I look around me and you know what I see? I see the same America that was here ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. Sure the faces age with time and the giddy giggling children of twenty years ago are now having little giddy giggling kids of their own. But the trees still have vibrant leaves, the kids still play little league in the summer, the PTA still meets in the room at the school that has that smell no one's ever been able to get rid of and Mr Fulkerson still has that awful compost pile he insists on keeping and, to the distress of our noses, growing. What's changed? Where's the so called "soft fascism" that you go on about? I appreciate you are young, and as such are prone to seeing little changes as huge, potentially catastrophic even. But they aren't! Things do change and that is something you have to get used to.

I was once a young politically active firebrand myself. The night George W was declared victor I was stunned and......well scared. I was too young to remember much or Reagan or George H.W. Bush so Clinton was the only President I had really known. I was scared because for the brief time I had been into politics the idea had been to keep the conservatives out and like many I had constructed in my own mind many reasons why it would be disastrous to fail at that mission. I had visions of forced conversion to Protestant Christianity, of death camps for homosexuals, the banning of sex from movies, the end of legal abortions and so much more.

None of that happened.

You will eventually learn a maxim that will help you and, more often then not, be true. It is:

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Remember that.



Really. Why didn't Bush just have all his political opponents labeled "terrorists" and sent there. Would have made things much easier for him. Heck, why didn't they send this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui) there?



Yeah, real secret. Look at it here (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=19.902222,-75.098889&spn=0.3,0.3&t=k&q=19.902222,-75.098889), and tell me what neferarious purpose it's serving.



What? History shows that camps are usually concentration camps or that concentration camps are common? Either way that's wrong.



Those Jews were fleeing an impending extermination of their race, so what are those Iraqis fleeing? The US?

Remember the people who were convinced the world would end at the turn of the millennium? Remember how foolish they looked? That's what happens when you see warning signs that aren't there and that is exactly the path you are on right now. We aren't laughing with you but at you.

lol. Incomparable. Look don't come crying to me when the **** hits the fan and you don't have a bomb shelter to go to. I'll be like "oh hey travis, you want what? stay in my bunker? well, remember I warned you about this whole thing but you were to busy being apathetic and watching pimp my ride? No travis you're not a total tool".

You're wrong about warning signs. If you read her book. She pretty much shows you the warning signs.

Those Jews were fleeing an impending extermination of their race, so what are those Iraqis fleeing?

The american terrorists.

What? History shows that camps are usually concentration camps or that concentration camps are common? Either way that's wrong.

History tells us that gitmo is an internment camp.

I had visions of forced conversion to Protestant Christianity, of death camps for homosexuals, the banning of sex from movies, the end of legal abortions and so much more.

That's because those ideas are nutty and are politically based. Mine are based on facts. (not entirely true, I see either hilary, obama, or mccain as provoking a huge war in the middle east, and I see in the future an assassination that starts the HUGE war)

You should read Sinclair lewis' book "It can't happen here" because that's exactly what you sound like. An ignoramus.

Keep watching American Idol.

[CHF]

ronpaulisright,

A few questions, if I may....

Why in your opinion is the march to facism taking so damn long?

Hitler turned Germany into a fascist state within a few short months of taking power, yet here we are, 6 1/2 years after 9/11, and we still find opponents of the current regime speaking freely, publishing literature, hosting their own TV/radio shows, teaching in schools, marching in the streets...

What gives? Is America going through a slow-motion fascist takeover? Is this a new kind of fascism that isn't evident in our day-to-day lives? Is it possible to live in a fascist tyranny and not know it?

You claim that Iraqis are fleeing the "the american terrorists." This begs an obvious questions. How do you square your theory with the fact that most of the Iraqi casualties have been the work of fellow Iraqis?

I'm sure you noticed that many Sunni militants in Anbar province have teamed up with the US Army in the past year, resulting in a dramatic decrease in US and Iraqi casualties. Wanna know why this has happened? Because the Sunnis fear Shiite militias and Al Qaeda fanatics more than they do US soldiers.

I'm sure you've also heard of the thousands of refugees who have returned to Baghdad in the past year - despite there being an increase in US troops in the city.

You'd find these things very telling if you weren't so fixated on your POV.

[RandFan]

Myself I agree that the USA under GWB is far more like a fascist state than it was previously, but it's still very much unlike full-blown fascism, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to think the trend will continue after the next Presidential election. Anything's possible but I currently see no strong reason to believe it.As a former Bush defender I have to say that it is sobering to look at the last 7 years and Bush's attitude toward a number of American principles. Wolf's book is good in that it gets us talking about these issues. We should not be complacent When it comes to due process and our civil rights. When there are red flags we should be willing to consider whether or not they are bellweathers of worse things to come. I'm not opposed to raising the warning flag so long as we are reasonable in our concerns.

I agree with you. I think the trend will reverse after the next election. I think the system can and will work. It's not perfect but it does have some self correcting features. Go Obama. :)

[ronpaulisright]

Why in your opinion is the march to facism taking so damn long?

These things take time and are steps. It's hard work. Bush wants to be a dictator. He's even said it himself!

[ronpaulisright]

Those fellow iraqis were traitors. They switched sides and joined America. That is punishable by death in America too.

Treason makes you eligible for death. Look to your American history. It's there. I don't agree with it, but that's because I believe in world peace:)

[ronpaulisright]

As a former Bush defender I have to say that it is sobering to look at the last 7 years and Bush's attitude toward a number of American principles. Wolf's book is good in that it gets us talking about these issues. We should not be complacent When it comes to due process and our civil rights. When there are red flags we should be willing to consider whether or not they are bellweathers of worse things to come. I'm not opposed to raising the warning flag so long as we are reasonable in our concerns.

I agree with you. I think the trend will reverse after the next election. I think the system can and will work. It's not perfect but it does have some self correcting features. Go Obama. :)


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!! so naive! How do you think obama has gotten as far as he has? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the American people.

name that tune......."meet the new boss. same as the old boss".

[Travis]

lol. Incomparable. Look don't come crying to me when the **** hits the fan and you don't have a bomb shelter to go to. I'll be like "oh hey travis, you want what? stay in my bunker? well, remember I warned you about this whole thing but you were to busy being apathetic and watching pimp my ride? No travis you're not a total tool".

You're wrong about warning signs. If you read her book. She pretty much shows you the warning signs.

I'm the tool!?! Whatever.:rolleyes:

Just so we don't retread things, what signs does she write of that haven't been debunked here before?

The american terrorists.

So the Iraqis in Switzerland are fleeing a non-existent entity. Are you sure they aren't actually fleeing Iraqi sectarian violence or are they having to be institutionalized upon arrival?


History tells us that gitmo is an internment camp.

Really. So you don't think it's holding accused terrorists awaiting a trial?

That's because those ideas are nutty and are politically based. Mine are based on facts. (not entirely true, I see either hilary, obama, or mccain as provoking a huge war in the middle east, and I see in the future an assassination that starts the HUGE war)

OR your ideas are merely the plot of next seasons 24.

You should read Sinclair lewis' book "It can't happen here" because that's exactly what you sound like. An ignoramus.

You think I blindly support my leaders, did you miss the part where I talked of how I had tried to get Gore elected and was scared when Bush took over?

Keep watching American Idol.

I can't stand American Idol. I don't watch a whole lot of TV; House MD, Lost, The Office, South Park and Mythbusters and that's about it.

It's nice that you made yet another groundless presumption about me.

[RandFan]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!! so naive! How do you think obama has gotten as far as he has? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the American people.

name that tune......."meet the new boss. same as the old boss".It's amazing that you assert that America is corrupt yet for some odd reason we do pretty damn well. There are corrupt governments around the world that are hell holes yet America is ranked relatively high in HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index). For a corrupt government it sure delivers a lot to its citizens.

Perhaps it isn't as corrupt as Ron Paul thinks it is.

Also, please note, your post is simply rhetorical. You often don't make arguments but try and ridicule and intimidate. You know, like school children.

Hey, why not think for yourself, stop with the Ron Paul rhetoric, and joing us in the debate? Make an argument.

[ronpaulisright]

It's amazing that you assert that America is corrupt yet for some odd reason we do pretty damn well. There are corrupt governments around the world that are hell holes yet America is ranked relatively high in HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index). For a corrupt government it sure delivers a lot to its citizens.

Perhaps it isn't as corrupt as Ron Paul thinks it is.

Also, please note, your post is simply rhetorical. You often don't make arguments but try and ridicule and intimidate. You know, like school children.

Hey, why not think for yourself, stop with the Ron Paul rhetoric, and joing us in the debate? Make an argument.

pretty damn well

Yeah, if you're comparing America to Somalia. But if you compare america to new zealand...No.

[ronpaulisright]

I'm the tool!?! Whatever.:rolleyes:

Just so we don't retread things, what signs does she write of that haven't been debunked here before?



So the Iraqis in Switzerland are fleeing a non-existent entity. Are you sure they aren't actually fleeing Iraqi sectarian violence or are they having to be institutionalized upon arrival?




Really. So you don't think it's holding accused terrorists awaiting a trial?



OR your ideas are merely the plot of next seasons 24.



You think I blindly support my leaders, did you miss the part where I talked of how I had tried to get Gore elected and was scared when Bush took over?



I can't stand American Idol. I don't watch a whole lot of TV; House MD, Lost, The Office, South Park and Mythbusters and that's about it.

It's nice that you made yet another groundless presumption about me.


I had tried to get Gore elected

That means you fell for the puppet system. "I think the puppet on the left shares my beliefs". It's ok. Like you said. You were young.

Gore is no different from the other scum suckers in this race.

So you don't think it's holding accused terrorists awaiting a trial?

Hardly.

[RandFan]

Yeah, if you're comparing America to Somalia. But if you compare america to new zealand...No. Compared to anyone!

#1 is .968
America is #13 and is .949
New Zealand is #19 and is .943

We're doing damn good. We good do better and our trend isn't great at the moment.

[ronpaulisright]

Randfan thinks america is doing good. lol. Are country is going bankrupt and he thinks that that is damn good. LOL!

[RandFan]

Randfan thinks america is doing good. lol. Are country is going bankrupt and he thinks that that is damn good. LOL! I'm giving you data. Facts. What are you giving? Rhetoric.

I don't like the direction of our country. I don't claim everything is fine. I'm saying that by any comparison we are doing relatively well. We have the means to fix our problems. Hell, if we didn't then Ron Paul wouldn't even try to become president.

So, in the end, your argument is just a straman.

[RandFan]

Are country is going bankrupt and he thinks that that is damn good. BTW, what does "are country" mean?

[ronpaulisright]

BTW, what does "are country" mean?

*our. :)

[Travis]

That means you fell for the puppet system. "I think the puppet on the left shares my beliefs". It's ok. Like you said. You were young.

Gore is no different from the other scum suckers in this race.

Here's a thought. Perhaps the reason the politicians tend to have somewhat similar views is because there are only so many correct ways to do things.

"Everyone puts their socks on one foot at a time, what puppets!"

Hardly.

Then who do you think is being held in Gitmo and why do you think they are there?

[ronpaulisright]

Here's a thought. Perhaps the reason the politicians tend to have somewhat similar views is because there are only so many correct ways to do things.

"Everyone puts their socks on one foot at a time, what puppets!"



Then who do you think is being held in Gitmo and why do you think they are there?

The freedom fighters, resistors, whatever you wanna call 'em.

The politicians are irrelevant. They got the politicians in their pocket.

[moon1969]

So if Bush is a dictator:

1. Why is Bush"s approval rating 28%? Hosni Mubrak has 99% approval and so did Saddam Hussein. I bet everybody in Cuba loves Fidel Castro.

2. So why are you allowed to say these things about Bush and hate him so freely and claim that he is a facist? Freedom of speech?

3. Gitmo is a gulag? LOL that place is nothing compared to Fidel Castros prisons in Cuba. Ramzan Kadyrov has way more evil prisons in Chechnya. And I wonder how Ahmadinejad cares about the people in prisons of Iran. Oh yeah and compare Gitmo to the chinese prisons? LOL

You are rigth about one thing. Bush and his friends sees everything as black and white. Bush thinks that those people in the middle east are the bad guys and USA plus Israel are the good guys who can"t do no wrong. Too bad the world doesn"t work that way.

[Travis]

The freedom fighters, resistors, whatever you wanna call 'em.


Well they certainly aren't freedom fighters, you could reasonably say they are resistors since they are resisting modernity and decency by pushing their backwards and barbaric world view onto helpless victims.......but that ignores something....do you feel they committed or abetted acts of terrorism?


The politicians are irrelevant. They got the politicians in their pocket.

Who is "they?"

[ronpaulisright]

Well they certainly aren't freedom fighters, you could reasonably say they are resistors since they are resisting modernity and decency by pushing their backwards and barbaric world view onto helpless victims.......but that ignores something....do you feel they committed or abetted acts of terrorism?




Who is "they?"

modernity and decency

Their resisting you. The insurgents are not that smart and not that savvy. But they do know who they are fighting and resisting. They are resisting YOU! They are barbarians, but if you LEAVE, suicide terrorism will vanish.

[Travis]

Their resisting you. The insurgents are not that smart and not that savvy. But they do know who they are fighting and resisting. They are resisting YOU! They are barbarians, but if you LEAVE, suicide terrorism will vanish.

That is profoundly naive and more importantly......wrong.

[Pardalis]

That is profoundly naive and more importantly......wrong.

Good lord, you actually understood what he said?

Damn, you're good. ;)

[ronpaulisright]

Good lord, you actually understood what he said?

Damn, you're good. ;)

What I said is..... america leaves. Things get better.

[Travis]

What I said is..... america leaves. Things get better.

Which is, again, profoundly naive and more importantly......wrong.

[ronpaulisright]

Which is, again, profoundly naive and more importantly......wrong.

Surprisingly, it's not.

[Travis]

Surprisingly, it's not.

Astonishingly, amazingly, astoundingly, incredibly........is is.

Now just admit defeat at the hand of my more numerous superlatives or provide some evidence on why what you think is true.

[ronpaulisright]

Look at viet nam. We left, tail between our legs and now... we trade with viet nam. They're our friends now!

[RandFan]

Look at viet nam. We left, tail between our legs and now... we trade with viet nam. They're our friends now!?

Ok.

[ronpaulisright]

Edited to remove off-topic remark.

You must post on-topic to the thread.

[jsfisher]

Reported.

[ronpaulisright]

Reported.

what? It was just a joke!

[CHF]

These things take time and are steps. It's hard work. Bush wants to be a dictator. He's even said it himself!

Hitler turned Germany into a fascist state in a matter of months.

Bush has had 7+ years and a massive terror attack for him to milk. What's the hold up? When do you think this fascist state will be realized?

[Travis]

Look at viet nam. We left, tail between our legs and now... we trade with viet nam. They're our friends now!

What happened to the poor people in South Vietnam after the US left?

Hmmmm, a million were sent to "re-education" camps where 165000 were murdered.

The remainder decided to risk death leaving and became the "boat people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people)."

South Vietnam suffered far more from Communist rule than from the brutality of the war fought there in part by the US.

Kinda makes all those Vietnam War Protesters who cheered on Hanoi while calling all US soldiers "baby killers" seem either ridiculously naive or communist sycophants.

[hamelekim]

Hitler turned Germany into a fascist state in a matter of months.

Bush has had 7+ years and a massive terror attack for him to milk. What's the hold up? When do you think this fascist state will be realized?

How does that invalidate the idea that Bush, or any of the current crop of presidential candidates, would set up a fascist state?

Go read Naomi wolfs book The End of America. It's happening before your eyes. When you search vehicles without cause and demand your id at checkpoints all the time. When they arrest you for filming the police, destroy your camera, and then let you go, you're living in fascism.

You think that America, which prizes freedom above everything else, is going to just turn fascist over night? You think the American people would go along with that?

If you condition the people through incremental change, through the media, and several generations of citizens, then it makes the process that much easier, even if it takes longer.

Don't worry, there is going to be an even either this year or next where the current president, or the next will implement martial law and it won't end. Corporate fascism is already the defacto policy of the US government. Full blown facist police state isn't far off.

[JoeEllison]

Hitler turned Germany into a fascist state in a matter of months.

Bush has had 7+ years and a massive terror attack for him to milk. What's the hold up? When do you think this fascist state will be realized?

We got "lucky", in that the goals of the Bush administration were mostly directed outwards towards Iraq. We can see that Bush was successful in starting his war with no justification, with the support of the media and the Democrats. Who knows what else he could have gotten away with instead?

[ronpaulisright]

I am sick and tired of this "war on islam for israel". Why would you die for israel? They are not our enemies! The saudis are our enemies right? Damn neo cons.

[JoeEllison]

I am sick and tired of this "war on islam for israel". Why would you die for israel? They are not our enemies! The saudis are our enemies right? Damn neo cons.

The "for Israel" part is only a small part of the issue, and probably exists mostly for show. If you want to be taken seriously, you should drop the CT stance you've adopted.

[ronpaulisright]

The "for Israel" part is only a small part of the issue, and probably exists mostly for show. If you want to be taken seriously, you should drop the CT stance you've adopted.

I think if you look at what's happening, there is a lot of credibility to the "9/11 was the start of israels war on islam"

[JoeEllison]

I think if you look at what's happening, there is a lot of credibility to the "9/11 was the start of israels war on islam"

I've looked... your position isn't worth a half cup of sour owl poop. As much as I object to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, I find the conspiracy theories to be one or two steps away from antisemitism, at best.

[ronpaulisright]

I've looked... your position isn't worth a half cup of sour owl poop. As much as I object to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, I find the conspiracy theories to be one or two steps away from antisemitism, at best.

you like zionist extremists?

[JoeEllison]

you like zionist extremists?

Nope, but I find it insane to see them lurking in ever shadow. I'm sure they exist, but not the way the CT nutters believer they do.

[ronpaulisright]

Nope, but I find it insane to see them lurking in ever shadow. I'm sure they exist, but not the way the CT nutters believer they do.

What about the connection with the likud party and the neo cons?

[Thunder]

I am sick and tired of this "war on islam for israel". Why would you die for israel? They are not our enemies! The saudis are our enemies right? Damn neo cons.

if this is a "war against islam", why havent we attacked saudi arabia yet?

instead, we let them charge us up the wazoo for gasoline and are about to help them build a nuclear reactor.

i smell anti-semitism

[Thunder]

you like zionist extremists?

do you like islamic extremists? or do you think its all made up. all muslims love the usa, europe, and non-muslims.

:D

[Pardalis]

How does that invalidate the idea that Bush, or any of the current crop of presidential candidates, would set up a fascist state?

Go read Naomi wolfs book The End of America. It's happening before your eyes. When you search vehicles without cause and demand your id at checkpoints all the time. When they arrest you for filming the police, destroy your camera, and then let you go, you're living in fascism.

You think that America, which prizes freedom above everything else, is going to just turn fascist over night? You think the American people would go along with that?

If you condition the people through incremental change, through the media, and several generations of citizens, then it makes the process that much easier, even if it takes longer.

Don't worry, there is going to be an even either this year or next where the current president, or the next will implement martial law and it won't end. Corporate fascism is already the defacto policy of the US government. Full blown facist police state isn't far off.

Wrong.

I guess Naomi forgot step 11: not get re-elected.

Oh well, maybe fascism next time. :rolleyes:

[Kopji]

Eh, she lost me at "and Nazi Germany...."

[tomwaits]

How do you know EXACTLY whay gitmo is? It's secret.

Hahahahaha! My dad served in Gitmo. Let me tell you...nothing strange is going on there. The problem is that people are sent there and aren't given a trial, aren't given a date when they can go home, etc. There is no torture. It's the imprisonment itself that is the issue.

[Travis]

Good old ronpaulisright. I miss him. He was one of the more entertaining paranoid posters we had.

I wonder if he's building an Ark to survive the end of the world now that Obama won? No doubt with lots of precious gold in it.

[KingMerv00]

Don't worry, there is going to be an even either this year or next where the current president, or the next will implement martial law and it won't end.

This just in...no.

[Ziggurat]

No doubt with lots of precious gold in it.

The gold isn't nearly as precious as his bodily fluids.

[RandFan]

This just in...no.:)

[Sefarst]

I'm sorry I missed this thread the first time around. A perfectly good opportunity to laugh at both Skeptigirl and Naomi Wolf in the same thread?!

Oh well, what a disappointment...

[BazBear]

The gold isn't nearly as precious as his bodily fluids. Well unless the floride got to him! General Jack Ripper knew a commie when he saw one! ;)

That said, this thread was an interesting read, I'm sure poor SkepticGirl had no idea the seed she had planted!

My take? sometimes the USA does some quasi-fascist things, the Japanese internment during the second world war stands out more than any other to me. Gitmo is for those who don't quite fit POW status, and is hardly fascist even to a moderate-liberal like myself. Heck I'd love to hoist Bush on one of his own petards; a fool maybe, misguided by others definitely, but a fascist I think not. I don't have time to hate him; dislike, disagree, get angry about things he's done, sure.

(Were ronpaulisright and ion banned for comments made in this thread...or was it also other posts in other threads as well? Just curious)

[Travis]

I think most of what got ronpaulisright banned now languishes in Abandon All Hope.

Anyone got any guesses when the Conspiraloons will emerge from their bunkers and realize that America isn't a dictatorship let alone a right wing one?

[dudalb]

If they did not emerge from the bunkers with the election of Obama, they ain't never coming out.

[Sefarst]

If they did not emerge from the bunkers with the election of Obama, they ain't never coming out.

Thankfully, they're more than welcome to stay down there.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sorry I missed this thread the first time around. A perfectly good opportunity to laugh at both Skeptigirl and Naomi Wolf in the same thread?!

Oh well, what a disappointment...Well, now that it's been 2 years since the thread was started, maybe you all would like to think about the state of the country Bush has left it in. I bet you all are just peachy-proud of what a good job ol' Georgie has done as Pres.

[KingMerv00]

Well, now that it's been 2 years since the thread was started, maybe you all would like to think about the state of the country Bush has left it in. I bet you all are just peachy-proud of what a good job ol' Georgie has done as Pres.

You don't seriously think that do you?

[gtc]

Well, now that it's been 2 years since the thread was started, maybe you all would like to think about the state of the country Bush has left it in. I bet you all are just peachy-proud of what a good job ol' Georgie has done as Pres.

You have finely honed skeptical skills. I suspect you can work out what is wrong with your post.

[INRM]

From what I remember,

Naomi Wolf was not saying that America is a fascist country. To my knowledge she was trying to point out

1.) The 10 characteristics fascist countries exhibit so as to warn people if a country is starting to become fascist (i.e. the more characteristics the country exhibits) before it actually happens

2.) The US is taking on *some* characteristics -- enough to be disturbing-- that fascist countries exhibit


INRM

[egslim]

Fascism is a continuum, part of the political spectrum. There are no clearly defined borders between fascist and non-fascist.

2.) The US is taking on *some* characteristics -- enough to be disturbing-- that fascist countries exhibit
The US has had more fascist tendencies than other western democracies for a long time. Examples include more flagwaving, more authoritarian behaviour by law enforcement officers and a more prominent and powerful national "leader" than other democracies. Doesn't make the country fascist, though. Potentially worrisome, yes.

[Pardalis]

maybe you all would like to think about the state of the country Bush has left it in.

A state in which it is possible for a black man to be elected to the highest office?

From what I remember,

Naomi Wolf was not saying that America is a fascist country. To my knowledge she was trying to point out

1.) The 10 characteristics fascist countries exhibit so as to warn people if a country is starting to become fascist (i.e. the more characteristics the country exhibits) before it actually happens

And when will that happen? Did any of these characteristics include "not get re-elected"?

[Ziggurat]

The US has had more fascist tendencies than other western democracies for a long time.

"The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."
- attributed to Jean-François Revel

[portlandatheist]

I can't help but think about what I saw during this last election cycle here in Portland:
A car at Fred Meyer with a McCain/Palin sticker and somebody had spray painted "Fascist" on their vehicle. Another person who video taped their neighbor's young child removing their McCain signs from their lawn and my own neighbors being too fearful to put up McCain signs in their yard in fear of property damage. Additionally, Portland had riot control police on standby election night just in case the wrong person had won the election. Many cars around here sport the bumper sticker "not my president!" in reference to Bush and I'm sure they are all over other cities as well.
Its obvious to me that there are a lot of liberals who have fascist tendencies and have no respect for the democratic system. Obama is my president and Bush was my president, whether I voted for either of them or not! We live in a democracy and need to respect our fellow citizens equal rights and equal representation.
The person who spray paints "fascist" on someone else's car because they are not voting in a matter they approve of, is the real fascist.

[Darth Rotor]

I can't help but think about what I saw during this last election cycle here in Portland:
A car at Fred Meyer with a McCain/Palin sticker and somebody had spray painted "Fascist" on their vehicle. Another person who video taped their neighbor's young child removing their McCain signs from their lawn and my own neighbors being too fearful to put up McCain signs in their yard in fear of property damage. Additionally, Portland had riot control police on standby election night just in case the wrong person had won the election. Many cars around here sport the bumper sticker "not my president!" in reference to Bush and I'm sure they are all over other cities as well.
Its obvious to me that there are a lot of liberals who have fascist tendencies and have no respect for the democratic system. Obama is my president and Bush was my president, whether I voted for either of them or not! We live in a democracy and need to respect our fellow citizens equal rights and equal representation.
The person who spray paints "fascist" on someone else's car because they are not voting in a matter they approve of, is the real fascist.
Thank you. Stand by for pitchforks and torches. ;)

DR

[gtc]

Denying that America is fascist is the 11th sign that America is fascist.

[WildCat]

I love these old threads from the classical BDS era!

[portlandatheist]

I love these old threads from the classical BDS era!
Those were dark dark times. Lets take a moment to reflect on the suffering and heroism of the Dick Cheney resistance movement.

[Travis]

Remember America has been on the cusp of Fascism since the Nixon years. Before that it was on the cusp of Communism. Before that it was in danger of becoming a Monarchy.

With that in mind I predict that the next thing America is in danger of becoming is a cybernetic hive collective ala The Borg.

[KingMerv00]

With that in mind I predict that the next thing America is in danger of becoming is a cybernetic hive collective ala The Borg.

Is that before or after the terrorists kill us all?

[tomwaits]

Is that before or after the terrorists kill us all?

It's after Google becomes aware.

[INRM]

egslim,

The US has had more fascist tendencies than other western democracies for a long time.

I'd have to agree -- for like the past 40-50 years. It's not good, and certainly not what our Founding Fathers had in mind.

Examples include more flagwaving, more authoritarian behaviour by law enforcement officers and a more prominent and powerful national "leader" than other democracies. Doesn't make the country fascist, though. Potentially worrisome, yes.

The "potentially worrisome" fact is kind of the point.


Tomwaits,

It's after Google becomes aware.

Huh?


INRM

[Ziggurat]

Huh?

It's a reference to skynet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)).

[moon1969]

Why fascism? Why not stalinism? You are not a stalinist, are you? :D

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well since this 2 yr old thread was bumped I thought it might be worth looking at what the author I posted the opinion of said at the time and compare it to what has happened since.

Here are the steps from a web article discussing them in detail. I bolded that bit because people in this thread seem to equate posting something you see value in to whatever it is being your exact opinion. I saw parallels here. Whether or not Wolf said flaky things elsewhere was irrelevant and I did not post some rant we were all headed to Nazism. I merely noted the woman's book had some merit. * 1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
* 2. Create a gulag
* 3. Develop a thug caste
* 4. Set up an internal surveillance system
* 5. Harass citizens' groups
* 6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
* 7. Target key individuals
* 8. Control the press
* 9. Dissent equals treason
* 10. Suspend the rule of law1) I think "war on terror" can certainly be said to have been used by Bush, et al, to manipulate people for political goals.

2) Perhaps one doesn't think Gitmo compares to the Gulag. It doesn't if you compare sheer size and the fact the population interred at Gitmo were not citizens of the jailer's own country. It does compare if you look at incarceration and torture without rights or a fair trial.

3) Blackwater is but one of several private mercenary armies created by Bush policies. We haven't seen private armies in the US since the Pinkertons (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/19thcentur1/a/allan_pinkerton.htm). The fact Blackwater turned up in New Orleans after Katrina should concern everyone.

4) Turns out, just like I said, the reason Bush didn't want FISA warrants he could have gotten after the fact was because he was spying on people illegally. Stay tuned on this one.

5) Outing Valerie Plame, firing all the Justice Dept attorneys not cooperating in political harassment schemes

6) No fly list, Gitmo, Special Renditions

7) & 8) The massive wire surveillance targeted the press.

9) This was a common theme in Rove's political approach to dissent.

10) "If a President does it, it's not illegal." Cheney's proud of claiming the authority to authorize torture. And using Plame's outing to silence whistle blowers wasn't legal. Did they care? Of course not.



These are examples of the country my parents warned me about. Except they were describing the problems with communist totalitarianism.

Most of this was going on when Wolf wrote the piece. Now that Bush is no longer able to pardon his cronies and stop the subpoenas, we'll see what has gone on in the Justice Department and the NSA.

[Ziggurat]

2) Perhaps one doesn't think Gitmo compares to the Gulag. It doesn't if you compare sheer size and the fact the population interred at Gitmo were not citizens of the jailer's own country. It does compare if you look at incarceration and torture without rights or a fair trial.

Uh, no. Treatment at Gitmo really doesn't compare to the gulags. And most importantly from the perspective of whether or not the US is fascist, neither does its very purpose. You will not find political opponents of Bush in there.

3) Blackwater is but one of several private mercenary armies created by Bush policies.

Nope. Blackwater was created in 1997.

And using Plame's outing to silence whistle blowers wasn't legal.

I've seen no evidence that this was the motive. Nor have I seen any evidence that the outing actually broke any laws. The only person to get in any legal trouble got busted for lying to investigators, not for having done anything regarding the outing itself.

These are examples of the country my parents warned me about.

I refer you, once again, to my previous quote: "The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

[Skeptic Ginger]

That Blackwater may have been founded before 911 and Bush and Iraq does not mean their current status was not created by Bush. Clearly they would be no more than a run of the mill security firm without those events. A run of the mill security firm they are not.

If you want your head in the sand about Plame, be my guest. Most people get it.

I'll see your quote and add one, "It can't happen here". Course not. :rolleyes:

Fortunately, not yet.

[KingMerv00]

skeptigirl,

I think people are disagreeing because the scale was insufficient, the execution was disorganized, and because Bush's control over America was hampered in a few key situations like Rasul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasul_v._Bush), Hamdan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld), and Hamdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld). All the while, the press and popular culture were free to roast Bush alive.

[Tailgater]

Did you steal that list from Letterman?

You could cut and paste things from every administration and come close to filling that list how you want it.

I give your list a C+ though.

Ion seemed really into it, IIRC. That's something to cherish.

[Bob Klase]

10) "If a President does it, it's not illegal." Cheney's proud of claiming the authority to authorize torture.

Is that actually a quote from Cheney? I remember when Nixon said that (exactly as you quoted IIRC), but I can't find any references to Cheney saying it (as quoted- lots of references saying that he liked the idea, but none actually quoting him as saying it).

If you want your head in the sand about Plame, be my guest. Most people get it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. Are you talking about the motive or are you claiming that laws were broken and Fitzpatrick couldn't figure which law and/or who broke them. (Or is Fitzpatrick part of the coverup?)

[KingMerv00]

Is that actually a quote from Cheney? I remember when Nixon said that (exactly as you quoted IIRC), but I can't find any references to Cheney saying it (as quoted- lots of references saying that he liked the idea, but none actually quoting him as saying it).

ejvyDn1TPr8

"...preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" my eye.

[gtc]

2) Perhaps one doesn't think Gitmo compares to the Gulag. It doesn't if you compare sheer size and the fact the population interred at Gitmo were not citizens of the jailer's own country. It does compare if you look at incarceration and torture without rights or a fair trial.

Is there evidence that torture occurred at Guantanamo Bay? Under the rules of war, are all of those inmates actually allowed to be put on trial?

6) No fly list, Gitmo, Special Renditions

No fly lists aren't arbitrary detention and release.

9) This was a common theme in Rove's political approach to dissent.

Evidence? I seem to recall reading about the recent election of a key dissident to some position of power. What was his name? Oh yes, Obama. Has he been convicted of treason yet?

[RandFan]

All the while, the press and popular culture were free to roast Bush alive.I think this more than anything was crucial (not that I think for a moment we were in any significant danger of becoming facist and I give skeptigirl props for her OP which I think was actually pretty good).

However it's really not that easy to take freedom away from Americans. If you shine the light of day on the actions of an administration it's hard to pull the wool over their eyes for too long.

[Ziggurat]

Ion seemed really into it, IIRC. That's something to cherish.

Ouch.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Did you steal that list from Letterman?

You could cut and paste things from every administration and come close to filling that list how you want it.

I give your list a C+ though.

Ion seemed really into it, IIRC. That's something to cherish.

Your post was 100% free of meaningful content.

Feel free to try again.

[Skeptic]

Well, now that it's been 2 years since the thread was started, maybe you all would like to think about the state of the country Bush has left it in

(Shrug)

First our "political analysts" claim Bush is a fascist who will become a dictator, cancel the elections, proclaim martial law, abolish the constitution, legalize torture, and put everybody he dislikes in jail. When none of that happens, they claim that they weren't REALLY wrong because, after all, Bush did a lousy job as president. They then throw a hissy fit about how evil conservatives are and how ashamed of themselves they should be.

That's like a "psychic" predicting the kidnapped person is held in a cave by a black man with a beard, far away. When it turns out the kidnapped child was actually playing in the home of a white kid without a beard close by, the psychic claims a "hit" because, at least, they got the abductor's gender right. They then throw a hissy fit about how evil skeptics are and how ashamed of themselves they should be.

[Skeptic]

Naomi Wolf started with saying America is fascist by predicting a lot of horrible, horrible things Bush will do. When he did none of those things, naturally her defenders claim became not that America is fascist, but that America is "stating to become fascist".

But America (like most other countries) is ALWAYS "starting to become fascist" AND "starting to become socialist" AND "starting to become antisemitic" AND "starting to become anti-Muslim" and "starting to become" a zillion other things. That's because every event that is not 100% exactly in the absolute middle of the political spectrum can be seen as "evidence" that America is "starting to become" something: when a Republican is elected America is "on its way to fascism", when a democrat, it's "on its way to socialism" (or communism).

It's just an attempt to make Naomi Wolf look less than 100% wrong. She was. But then again, most pundits are wrong most of the time. Ah, if only they were ALWAYS wrong! We could then use them as a sort of true north to discover what's going to happen, by simply taking the opposite view.

The problem is that they are sometimes right -- if only by chance -- and thus listening to their predictions is useless, since you gain no knowlege about what will happen. When they say X will happen, you cannot conclude that X will happen -- obviously -- but you cannot conlcude X will not happen, either. So after listening to a pundit go on for two hours about how X is an absolute certainty, the bottom line is, "X will either happen, or it will not".

So why listen to them?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is that actually a quote from Cheney? I remember when Nixon said that (exactly as you quoted IIRC), but I can't find any references to Cheney saying it (as quoted- lots of references saying that he liked the idea, but none actually quoting him as saying it).Did you miss the Cheney interview
gwmh5QRMbb8

or can you not add 2 & 2?

yI4sc45PECw

Waterboarding is torture (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/waterboarding-is-torture--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html)

Waterboarding is torture (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/)

Waterboarding is torture (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808)

2+2

torture is illegal (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/02/opinion/ed-mukasey2)

torture is illegal (http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/usa-water-torture-always-illegal-20080215)

torture is illegal (http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn05062008.html)



I'm not sure what you're referring to there. Are you talking about the motive or are you claiming that laws were broken and Fitzpatrick couldn't figure which law and/or who broke them. (Or is Fitzpatrick part of the coverup?)So you can't figure out this one either? What? Scooter just had a grudge against pretty blonds? Care to tell us what your version is?

[Skeptic Ginger]

skeptigirl,

I think people are disagreeing because the scale was insufficient, the execution was disorganized, and because Bush's control over America was hampered in a few key situations like Rasul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasul_v._Bush), Hamdan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld), and Hamdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld). All the while, the press and popular culture were free to roast Bush alive.If anyone bothered to read or listen to Wolf, they'd have heard she was talking a slippery slope not a final done deal plunge.

But then, the Bush apologists haven't quite opened their eyes so no surprise there.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think this more than anything was crucial (not that I think for a moment we were in any significant danger of becoming facist and I give skeptigirl props for her OP which I think was actually pretty good).

However it's really not that easy to take freedom away from Americans. If you shine the light of day on the actions of an administration it's hard to pull the wool over their eyes for too long.RandFan, you have a brain in your head after all. Perhaps I was rash to put you on ignore.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is there evidence that torture occurred at Guantanamo Bay?Uhhh yeah! Earth to gtc, Cheney had no qualms about it.

Under the rules of war, are all of those inmates actually allowed to be put on trial?So those Geneva Conventions Bush said didn't apply to 'enemy combatants' had nothing to do with rules of war then? Just rules in peacetime?

No fly lists aren't arbitrary detention and release. Suit yourself. I suppose I could have put the no fly list under 5, 7 or 9.

Evidence? I seem to recall reading about the recent election of a key dissident to some position of power. What was his name? Oh yes, Obama. Has he been convicted of treason yet?They did try the "associates with terrorists" campaign slogan.

Too bad, they failed. Reason is restored to the USA. Hooray for the good guys!!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Naomi Wolf started with saying America is fascist by predicting a lot of horrible, horrible things Bush will do. When he did none of those things, naturally her defenders claim became not that America is fascist, but that America is "stating to become fascist". ...And just what was it about "Letter of Warning" that you didn't understand?

[KingMerv00]

If anyone bothered to read or listen to Wolf, they'd have heard she was talking a slippery slope not a final done deal plunge.

The change, at least to me, was not bad enough to even mention it the same breath with fascism. To do so smacks of alarmism.

But then, the Bush apologists haven't quite opened their eyes so no surprise there.

Oh good God, I'm nowhere near a Bush apologist. Off the top of my head, the only action of his I supported was Afghanistan. Everything else sucked.

Stem cells
Speaking skills
Cronyism
Black and white stance on "evildoers"
Affirmative action
Supreme Court Justices
Gun control
Manipulation of administrative law
Evolution
Habeus Corpus
Torture
Intentionally twisting of legal phrasing
The unitary executive
UN ambassador choice
Flag burning
Gay rights
Abortion
Death Penalty
Marijuana decriminalization
His personal war on science

etc.
etc.
etc.

Heh...Bush apologist.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

From the Revolution, to the War of 1812, to the Civil War to World War 1 to the Great Depression to World War Two to the Korean War to Viet Nam to the Cold War to Desert Storm to 9/11 to Afghanistan to Iraq and Katrina and every conflict and disaster in between that I haven't mentioned... the United States of America just keeps not turning into a fascist dictatorship.

Given the defendants established pattern of behavior, I'm finding little cause to be concerned.

[gtc]

Your post was 100% free of meaningful content.

Feel free to try again.

Perhaps you might like to try again:

You could cut and paste things from every administration and come close to filling that list how you want it.



Uhhh yeah! Earth to gtc, Cheney had no qualms about it.

Personal attacks just make you look like a crank.

If you have evidence that torture occurred at Guantanamo Bay you should provide it.

So those Geneva Conventions Bush said didn't apply to 'enemy combatants' had nothing to do with rules of war then? Just rules in peacetime?

What a nonsense. Not every combatant is a prisoner of war.

They did try the "associates with terrorists" campaign slogan.

Which he did. You need to get a grip. You are suggesting that a rival candidate pointing out that someone associated with a terrorist is evidence that the US is descending into fascism.

Too bad, they failed. Reason is restored to the USA. Hooray for the good guys!!

They lost an election. Don't you think that a political party losing a fair election is evidence that the US was never heading down the path of fascism?

[BeAChooser]

1) I think "war on terror" can certainly be said to have been used by Bush, et al, to manipulate people for political goals.

I'm curious, skeptigirl. Do you agree with the statement "Terror is the new communism"?

2) Perhaps one doesn't think Gitmo compares to the Gulag.

It doesn't. It doesn't even come close. That you'd even suggest it does says more about you than you know.

3) ... 9)

:rolleyes:

10) "If a President does it, it's not illegal."

Funny how nothing that Clinton did seems to have been "illegal" in your mind. Did you apply this statement? :D

[Skeptic]

And just what was it about "Letter of Warning" that you didn't understand?

What I don't undestand is what makes such a "Letter or Warning" different than simply being an impressive-sounding but empty tautology, saying in effect nothing more than "either America will be fascist or it will not".

The word "warning" in her claims served exactly the same purpose the words "maybe", "possibly", "I feel like", etc. serve in psychic cold reading. It makes her "warning" true no matter what happens -- but also makes her claim unfalsifiable and therefore worthless.

If America becomes fascist it's a "hit". If it doesn't, but some of the things she said occur, that too is a "hit" because it proves America is "on the road" (another weasel-word expression) to fascism. If virtually nothing she says in her warning comes true (which is more or less what happened), she just WARNED us against fascism, she didn't say America IS becoming fascist, so it's at least not a miss. Besides, America can always become fascist at some later time, so the warning is still true; and, what's more, surely the only reason America did not become fascist is because her warning alerted people to the danger. So that, too, is a "hit", after all.

In short, the numerous weasel words she used (a "warning", "on the road to", etc.) made her claims totally unfalsifiable tuatology. It was simply psychic cold reading disguised as a political commentary.

[Tailgater]

Your post was 100% free of meaningful content.

Feel free to try again.


Thank You. Since you have a hard time reading, let me throw out an example. I was watching the history channel the last three days (sick in bed) and my favorite comedic shows came on. That would be "The Anti-christ" and "Nostradamus". A bunch of experts come out and fill in the blanks to match what has been predicted. They have a "list". They then fill that "list" with random crap that, when you add it all together, looks like "OMG the anti-christ is coming". Unfortunately, most of the "list" has happened multiple times throughout history in various forms or even identical. That's not too different than this thread.

Try taking each one on the list and assign an overall % toward fascism. I'm assuming Nazi Germany is 100%? Add them all up and divide by 10 to give yourself an avg %. Then we can discuss the % of fascism that we have become, devolving into an even dumber argument. In the meantime, the system in place is reversing the pendelum and we can make a thread on 10 easy steps to Communism which will be equally as brain damaging.

[Toke]

Sorry this is a bit off topic, but would sceptic mind adding link and correct text to your sig.
I know you are a nice guy, but please, people will not be that concused by context or correct quoting. They can take it.

[egslim]

"The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."
- attributed to Jean-François Revel
Argument by famous (?) quote is a fallacy. But the first thing to consider is that Europe consists of aproximately 30 nations. Which, all things equal, makes it about 10 times more likely for a European nation than a North American nation to become fascist.

Second, war and its aftermath increases the chance of a fascist revolution. In this regard the US has always benefitted from its geographical isolation, giving it the ability to enter conflicts only on its own terms and allowing it to withdraw if necessary to avoid a political breakdown.

On the other hand, political cooperation within the EU has dramatically reduced the likelyhood of war between its member states to virtually zero. That same cooperation includes legal obligations towards human rights which makes it practically impossible for an EU-member to become fascist.
At the other side of the Atlantic the WTC attacks nudged US politics slightly in the direction of fascism. That would be worrisome, had Al Qaeda been able to lauch more attacks of comparable or greater effect.

[egslim]

I'd have to agree -- for like the past 40-50 years. It's not good, and certainly not what our Founding Fathers had in mind.
Actually I would make that the past 80 years, at least. During the 30's US prominents like Ford and Lindbergh were quite taken in by Nazism. And more important, the executive branch of government has gradually increased its power for a long time now.

[Toke]

The US handleded their reichdagsfeur* much better than germany.

Well, they do not have street fighting between facist and communists. I have just visited the berlin museum on german history between 1917 and now. The democratic parties were pretty marginaliced.


*My german sucks

[egslim]

The US handleded their reichdagsfeur* much better than germany.

Well, they do not have street fighting between facist and communists. I have just visited the berlin museum on german history between 1917 and now. The democratic parties were pretty marginaliced.
Like I pointed out, war and its aftermath can have devasting effects on a country's political stability. The US hasn't gone through anything comparable with what Germany went through during WWI since the American Civil War.

[Toke]

Umberto eco said something around they will come with the cross and the flag.

Heard something like "liberty is where jesus is". How does that differ from iranian priests?

[Ziggurat]

Argument by famous (?) quote is a fallacy.

I'm using a quote for proper attribution. I think it's a powerful statement not because it's famous, but because it's true.

But the first thing to consider is that Europe consists of aproximately 30 nations. Which, all things equal, makes it about 10 times more likely for a European nation than a North American nation to become fascist.

Except it wasn't one nation which went fascist. Nor was it simply some tiny little nation like Luxembourg.

Second, war and its aftermath increases the chance of a fascist revolution. In this regard the US has always benefitted from its geographical isolation,

That may help explain why the quote is true, but it's irrelevant to whether it's true.

On the other hand, political cooperation within the EU has dramatically reduced the likelyhood of war between its member states to virtually zero.

And at the same time, created more government and less accountability. And while inter-state war is highly unlikely, domestic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France) turmoil (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/09/greece-riots-papandreou) is not exactly out of the question. External wars may help set the conditions for domestic turmoil, but it is ultimately domestic turmoil which has the direct impact in allowing the emergence of fascism.

That same cooperation includes legal obligations towards human rights which makes it practically impossible for an EU-member to become fascist.

Legal obligations will mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them. Which a fascist government would. The real protection against fascism comes from a populace unwilling to tolerate such things, and able to stand up to government. On the latter point in particular, the EU has NOT been beneficial. In fact, our second ammendment provides far more protection from fascism than any EU-based treaty obligations ever could. A disarmed population is an easily controlled population.

At the other side of the Atlantic the WTC attacks nudged US politics slightly in the direction of fascism.

As has already been pointed out, this is essentially meaningless without any sort of scale. You could just as easily say that we've been nudged away from Anarchy. Anarchy is bad, so it's a good thing to move away from it, right?

That would be worrisome, had Al Qaeda been able to lauch more attacks of comparable or greater effect.

I find it strange that what you worry about in regards to the possibility of more Al Qaeda attacks is the effect on our government, rather than the tragedies that such attacks would themselves create.

[NoZed Avenger]

The US has had more fascist tendencies than other western democracies for a long time. Examples include more flagwaving, more authoritarian behaviour by law enforcement officers . . . .

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/35426189.html

Scene 1: Frankfurt, Germany, 1 October 2002, early morning
In the frankfurt police headquarters, the atmosphere is tense. Deputy Police Chief Wolfgang Daschner is losing patience. On the previous day, his officers arrested one Magnus Gäfgen, a 27-year-old law student. Gäfgen is suspected of having kidnapped 11-year-old Jakob von Metzler, son of the banker Friedrich von Metzler.

* * *

Daschner decides to act. He dispatches police inspector Ortwin Ennigkeit to the office in which Gäfgen is being held for interrogation. Ennigkeit’s assignment: to make Gäfgen talk — if necessary by threat of torture. Indeed, Daschner has resolved not only to threaten Gäfgen with pain, but to carry out the threat if his prisoner is not otherwise forthcoming. A doctor has been found to supervise the proceedings.

In the interrogation room, Ennigkeit tells Gäfgen that a “special officer” is on his way. If Gäfgen does not tell Ennigkeit where the boy is, the “special officer” will “make him feel pain that he will not forget.” On Gäfgen’s own account, the formula is still more menacing: the officer “will make you feel pain like you have never felt before.” “Nobody can help you here,” Ennigkeit tells him, according to Gäfgen’s testimony. “We can do whatever we want with you.” On Gäfgen’s account, moreover, Ennigkeit already begins to rough him up: shaking him so violently that his head bangs against the wall and hitting him in the chest hard enough to leave a bruise over his collarbone.


On June 30, 2008, the European Court of Human Rights rejected Gäfgen’s complaint and cleared Germany of the charge of tolerating torture.3 The Court found that the treatment to which Daschner and Ennigkeit subjected Gäfgen did not reach the threshold required to be considered as torture (§69). On the Court’s assessment, it did, however, constitute “inhuman treatment” (§70), which is likewise prohibited by Article 3. Nonetheless, the Court found that German judicial institutions had acted in such a way as to provide Gäfgen sufficient “redress” for the offense suffered and thereby, in effect, to nullify any violation of the Convention. According to the somewhat surreal reasoning of the Court, Gäfgen had been, but was no longer, a victim of “inhuman treatment” (§82). He had “lost” his “victim status.”

The second element of “redress” identified by the Court is equally spurious and equally obviously so: The majority of the court found that Gäfgen had been afforded redress by virtue of the fact that a German court tried and convicted Daschner and Ennigkeit for their acts (§80). In December 2004, the District Court of Frankfurt am Main found Ennigkeit guilty of having “coerced” Gäfgen (i.e., by threat of violence) and Daschner of having incited his subordinate to do so.

But the verdict was purely theoretical: for while the court did indeed find the two men guilty, it refused to apply sanction. Daschner and Ennigkeit were merely “warned” and given “suspended” fines: or, in plainer language, they were not even fined. The European Court of Human Rights gingerly describes this as a “comparatively lenient” sentence (§78).

[Toke]

I read of that case but did not get the conclusion.
What I read was mostly making helicopter noises at him to get him to reveal the location of the boy.

It is one of the nasty cases where I start considerating the merrits of torture.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Thank You. Since you have a hard time reading, let me throw out an example. I was watching the history channel the last three days (sick in bed) and my favorite comedic shows came on. That would be "The Anti-christ" and "Nostradamus". A bunch of experts come out and fill in the blanks to match what has been predicted. They have a "list". They then fill that "list" with random crap that, when you add it all together, looks like "OMG the anti-christ is coming". Unfortunately, most of the "list" has happened multiple times throughout history in various forms or even identical. That's not too different than this thread.

Try taking each one on the list and assign an overall % toward fascism. I'm assuming Nazi Germany is 100%? Add them all up and divide by 10 to give yourself an avg %. Then we can discuss the % of fascism that we have become, devolving into an even dumber argument. In the meantime, the system in place is reversing the pendelum and we can make a thread on 10 easy steps to Communism which will be equally as brain damaging.

Same problem: nothing but your empty handwaving.

Saying "Oh, I'm sure I could make up a similar list about anything", or "Oh, that has happened before and therefore is of no concern if it happens again" is meaningless.

Why don't you actually try your hand at providing a similar list for a peacetime US President, rather than just asserting that you could do so if you felt like it?

[Texas]

Same problem: nothing but your empty handwaving.

Saying "Oh, I'm sure I could make up a similar list about anything", or "Oh, that has happened before and therefore is of no concern if it happens again" is meaningless.

Why don't you actually try your hand at providing a similar list for a peacetime US President, rather than just asserting that you could do so if you felt like it?
Well I have a list of 10 items that proves that America is a communist nation and it has been around a lot longer than Wolfe's. In fact she should be sued for plagiarism

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Communism/manifesto.htm
In 1848, Carl Marx, at the age of 30, entered a competition sponsored by the International Socialist Union of Paris, France. His submission was the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto, which won. The rest, as they say, is history.

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Property tax paid annually prevents the outright ownership of property, because if property can be confiscated for taxes owed, it can never truly be owned. The application of our rents of land (property taxes) are used for public purposes as envisioned by Karl Marx.


A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The income tax was imposed upon the people briefly after the War Between The Southern States and The dictatorial Federal Government. In 1895, The US Supreme Court abolished it with the words, "The income tax is indeed a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional". The Court understood that, "No capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid,..." Art. 1, Sec. 9, of the US Constitution, means exactly what it says. However, in 1913 there were enough socialist in Congress to again foist the income tax upon the people with the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The income tax is not designed just to raise taxes, which could be accomplished very easily with a national sales tax. Instead, its goal is to punish achievement, invade privacy, and control the people through fear and intimidation from the most Gestapo-like arm of our government, the I.R.S.


Abolition of all right of inheritance. Our inheritance tax puts all rights of inheritance in jeopardy. Property tax, income tax, and inheritance tax, should be abolished because they are all direct taxes and they all violate our God-given property rights. They could be replaced with indirect taxes like sales tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, or gasoline tax. Some advantages of indirect taxes are:

They are indeed Constitutional.
Our privacy would be protected.
Everyone who spends money participates including the super-wealthy, foreign visitors, illegal aliens, drug dealers, and others now in the underground economy.
It is a pay as you go system - no April 15th.
The IRS and all associated collection cost would be eliminated.
Lower production cost will allow business to compete internationally.
Prices would come down more than enough to cover the sales tax increase.
Business would expand creating new jobs.
The money now in off-shore tax-havens would flood back into this country stimulating the economy.
Manufacturing would come back home absent the over-taxation and over-regulation that drove them to foreign countries.


Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Our government does not normally confiscate property of emigrants, however, many laws and regulations have been passed in recent years which allow many government agencies such as the I.R.S., O.S.H.A., E.P.A., B.L.M., and drug enforcement agencies to confiscate property from citizens that are considered rebels. Much of this confiscation is achieved without due process of law.


Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve System was created in 1913. It is not federally owned and nothing is in reserve. It is a private corporation with the power to increase or decrease the money supply by changing the interest rates and the reserve requirements of its member banks. It can create money out of thin air, lend it to the government and then collect the principal and interest from the taxpayers. That is why its owners always have and always will promote war and socialism to create inextinguishable government debt.
"Permit me to control the currency of a nation and I care not who makes its laws." -Baron De Rothschild, brainchild of the Federal Reserve Bank.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -Thomas Jefferson



Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Communication and transportation are controlled by a number of government agencies, e.g., The Federal Communication Commission (FCC), The Dept. of Transportation (DOT), The Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC), The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Public Television is also a good example of state control of communication for the indoctrination of the concepts of socialism and humanism.


Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvements of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Dan Smoot's book, "The Business End of Government" revealed that, the federal government owned 1165 different businesses like AMTRAC. The Bureau of land Management, The Department of Agriculture, The Department of Commerce, The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), etc., all promote a common plan of more and more regulation and control from government with less and less freedom enjoyed by the people.


Equal liability of all to labor and the establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Heavy taxation, over-regulation, and other economic problems caused by our government's adoption of socialism has forced women to labor equally with men. Our industrial army is the Social Security System which requires membership at birth.


Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equitable distribution of population over the country. We are not living under this plank totally. However, we do have many large agriculture corporations who have combined all levels of production from the farm to the consumer. It appears that the goal of this plank is to reduce the number of family farms making it easier to gain control of all food and fiber production. This goal is fast becoming reality.


Free education for all children in public schools.... Communist and socialist have long recognized the value of indoctrination through a free educational system. And, it has produced a people with no understanding of the vast differences between the Free Enterprise System and socialism. During our Bicentennial celebrations (1986), a national poll of school children revealed that 46% of them believed that "From him with the most ability - to him with the most need" was part of our Constitution. Today all socialist, all liberals and most democrats believe the same thing.

[Bob Klase]

Is that actually a quote from Cheney?

Did you miss the Cheney interview

I'm sure I miss thousands of interviews every year. I didn't miss that one. I even watched it again via your link. Apparently I was expecting too much when I thought you'd give an honest answer.

Did you miss the part of English class where they explained the correct use of quotation marks?

or can you not add 2 & 2?

I simply asked if that was an actual quote from Cheney. But to answer your question, yes, I can add 2 + 2. And my question was not "do you think Cheney is in favor of letting the president break the law.

But I can look at a quote you attempted to imply was actually said by one person, then look at your answer asking if that was an actual quote. When I add them together I find out that 4 = you're more concerned with pushing an agenda than they are with being honest about it even when it comes to answering a very simple yes or no question.

So you can't figure out this one either?

Oh, I have it (and you) pretty much figured out now.

What? Scooter just had a grudge against pretty blonds? Care to tell us what your version is?

I don't have a version. I can only go by the facts as reported in the news. I never saw anything reported specifying exactly what law was broken. And I never saw anything reported that explained why Fitzpatrick didn't file charges if someone did violate that law.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well I have a list of 10 items that proves that America is a communist nation and it has been around a lot longer than Wolfe's. In fact she should be sued for plagiarism

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Communism/manifesto.htm

If those policies were all enacted in one President's term then I'd be happy to say that, under than President, the USA moved significantly closer to Communism.

[Texas]

If those policies were all enacted in one President's term then I'd be happy to say that, under than President, the USA moved significantly closer to Communism.So because they were passed under multiple presidents we are not communist? Do you hold the same view of Wolfe's list? We are either moving towards Communism or Fascism according to those lists. Why is one more accurate than the other?

[Kevin_Lowe]

So because they were passed under multiple presidents we are not communist?

You're closer to communism than you would be without those policies, sure. They're just not indicative of a sharp, recent trend if they weren't all passed in one President's time in office recently.


Do you hold the same view of Wolfe's list?


Of course not, I'm not stupid.


We are either moving towards Communism or Fascism according to those lists.


I don't buy into a simple-minded continuum with communism at one end and fascism at the other, nor do I buy in to the idea that the policies in the "communist" list demonstrate a move towards a communist end-point as opposed to a move towards a socialism. So that's a false dichotomy.


Why is one more accurate than the other?

As I said just now, Wolfe makes a list of recent changes made in one President's term. Maybe you want to argue that the USA has been moving towards fascism for years so further changes in that direction are unremarkable, and if so you can try to make that case. Or alternatively if you think that you could make an equally substantial list of moves away from fascism under Bush's watch you could try that.

[Skeptic]

Since the USA has a two-party system, it is ALWAYS either "on the road" to something or other. More precisely:

1). If the Republicans win one election, the country is "on the road" to fascism.
2). If the Republicans win TWO elections in a row, the country is no longer "on the road" to fascism -- it has practically BECOME fascist.
3). If the Democrats win one election, the country is "on the road" to socialism / communism.
4). If the Democrats win TWO elections in a row, the country is no long "on the road" to socialism / communism -- it has practically BECOME a communist state.

It took me over a decade to figure out that the above list summarizes, more or less, 95% of all political commentary written about the American political system.

Shows you what a genius *I* am, I guess.

[Skeptic]

Remember America has been on the cusp of Fascism since the Nixon years. Before that it was on the cusp of Communism. Before that it was in danger of becoming a Monarchy.

With that in mind I predict that the next thing America is in danger of becoming is a cybernetic hive collective ala The Borg.

We'll have to wait for the first cybenetic hive member president to be elected for THAT.

Currently, with a black democratic president, America is only "on the road" to a race war and/or socialism, and "on the road" to total surrender to the Islamist menace.

[Texas]

I don't buy into a simple-minded continuum with communism at one end and fascism at the other, nor do I buy in to the idea that the policies in the "communist" list demonstrate a move towards a communist end-point as opposed to a move towards a socialism. So that's a false dichotomy.



.
So you can be a little pregnant then. I see. You left out a piece of the "continuum" that is called Capitalism. Wolfe doesn't even know what fascism is. What she describes in her 10 points is totalitarianism. And in a totalitarian system there are no checks and balances on the head of state and there are NEVER peaceful transfers of power. You also don't know what Communism is. Communism like Fascism is a governing philosophy, socialism is an economic philosophy that can be implemented in most any governmental system just as capitalism can be implemented in Communist China. Bush did everything as president under the same constitutional checks and balances that every president in our history has operated under. He did not rule by decree as Totalitarian regimes do. Wolfe's list just as the one I posted are just hysterical hand waving that have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of how this country functions.

[Kevin_Lowe]

So you can be a little pregnant then. I see. You left out a piece of the "continuum" that is called Capitalism. Wolfe doesn't even know what fascism is. What she describes in her 10 points is totalitarianism. And in a totalitarian system there are no checks and balances on the head of state and there are NEVER peaceful transfers of power. You also don't know what Communism is. Communism like Fascism is a governing philosophy, socialism is an economic philosophy that can be implemented in most any governmental system just as capitalism can be implemented in Communist China. Bush did everything as president under the same constitutional checks and balances that every president in our history has operated under. He did not rule by decree as Totalitarian regimes do. Wolfe's list just as the one I posted are just hysterical hand waving that have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of how this country functions.

I don't think there was a single coherent thought in that entire post.

[Skeptic]

Those were dark dark times. Lets take a moment to reflect on the suffering and heroism of the Dick Cheney resistance movement.

Yes, the risks these folks ran in resisting American fascism! They were all just on the verge of being put into concentration camps by the evil fascist Bush and his henchman Cheney, when the savior Obama came and rescued them.

Why, if they had to go to one more cocktail party to tell everybody just horribly fascist America is, they'd probably develop alcoholism. The last urine sample they gave had an olive in it. Not a good sign.

I just think we should all join in a moment of silence for the enormous sacrifice, in wear and tear on the printing fingers and jaw muscles, the anti-fascist resistance movement in the USA had willingly made, so that all of us can sleep safely at night.

[Texas]

I don't think there was a single coherent thought in that entire post.I have noticed that you have trouble understanding a lot of people's posts. You may want to do some self reflection.

[Skeptic Ginger]

What I don't undestand is what makes such a "Letter or Warning" different than simply being an impressive-sounding but empty tautology, saying in effect nothing more than "either America will be fascist or it will not".

The word "warning" in her claims served exactly the same purpose the words "maybe", "possibly", "I feel like", etc. serve in psychic cold reading. It makes her "warning" true no matter what happens -- but also makes her claim unfalsifiable and therefore worthless.

If America becomes fascist it's a "hit". If it doesn't, but some of the things she said occur, that too is a "hit" because it proves America is "on the road" (another weasel-word expression) to fascism. If virtually nothing she says in her warning comes true (which is more or less what happened), she just WARNED us against fascism, she didn't say America IS becoming fascist, so it's at least not a miss. Besides, America can always become fascist at some later time, so the warning is still true; and, what's more, surely the only reason America did not become fascist is because her warning alerted people to the danger. So that, too, is a "hit", after all.

In short, the numerous weasel words she used (a "warning", "on the road to", etc.) made her claims totally unfalsifiable tuatology. It was simply psychic cold reading disguised as a political commentary.
The complaint was made this book was inaccurate because it claimed America was a fascist county. But that is not what the book said. Because you don't happen to like the author, the subject, the true motive you believe you can read between the lines, that's all your business. But in the meantime, your interpretation of the book is just that, your interpretation. It is not what the book was about at all.

The author made some observations about what elements a fascist state consisted of then pointed out some analogies going on in America at the time. The book was all about the slippery slope and nothing about America is already a fascist country.

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

I find it strange that what you worry about in regards to the possibility of more Al Qaeda attacks is the effect on our government, rather than the tragedies that such attacks would themselves create.While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

[Skeptic Ginger]

.... That same cooperation includes legal obligations towards human rights which makes it practically impossible for an EU-member to become fascist.
At the other side of the Atlantic the WTC attacks nudged US politics slightly in the direction of fascism. ...I wouldn't be too sure about that first statement, you still have language and cultural differences that could lead to a reversal toward more nationalism, but the second one is exactly what I would have said.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well I have a list of 10 items that proves that America is a communist nation and it has been around a lot longer than Wolfe's. In fact she should be sued for plagiarism

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Communism/manifesto.htmIgnoring the fact you've reiterated the false claim Wolf's book said anything of the kind about already being fascist, let's look at these claims: Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Property tax paid annually prevents the outright ownership of property, because if property can be confiscated for taxes owed, it can never truly be owned. The application of our rents of land (property taxes) are used for public purposes as envisioned by Karl Marx.Someone can steal from you also, does that mean you don't really own anything? You could lose a lawsuit, so you don't really own your money. Rather than this being on the slope to communism, I'd say it's closer to coming down a tad off the hill of anarchism.

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The income tax was imposed upon the people briefly after the War Between The Southern States and The dictatorial Federal Government. In 1895, The US Supreme Court abolished it with the words, "The income tax is indeed a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional". The Court understood that, "No capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid,..." Art. 1, Sec. 9, of the US Constitution, means exactly what it says. However, in 1913 there were enough socialist in Congress to again foist the income tax upon the people with the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The income tax is not designed just to raise taxes, which could be accomplished very easily with a national sales tax. Instead, its goal is to punish achievement, invade privacy, and control the people through fear and intimidation from the most Gestapo-like arm of our government, the I.R.S.Same thing. No government, no community obligations, that's anarchy not a capitalist democracy. You seem to think it's anarchy or communism. No in between exists by these arguments.


Abolition of all right of inheritance. Our inheritance tax puts all rights of inheritance in jeopardy. Property tax, income tax, and inheritance tax, should be abolished because they are all direct taxes and they all violate our God-given property rights.God given property rights? :rolleyes:


They could be replaced with indirect taxes like sales tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, or gasoline tax. Some advantages of indirect taxes are:

They are indeed Constitutional.
Our privacy would be protected.
Everyone who spends money participates including the super-wealthy, foreign visitors, illegal aliens, drug dealers, and others now in the underground economy.
It is a pay as you go system - no April 15th.
The IRS and all associated collection cost would be eliminated.
Lower production cost will allow business to compete internationally.
Prices would come down more than enough to cover the sales tax increase.
Business would expand creating new jobs.
The money now in off-shore tax-havens would flood back into this country stimulating the economy.
Manufacturing would come back home absent the over-taxation and over-regulation that drove them to foreign countries.And the drawbacks, they are progressive and take a huge % of poor people's income and only a teeny tiny fraction of rich people's income. I'd say that was closer to a system of serfdom.


Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Our government does not normally confiscate property of emigrants, however, many laws and regulations have been passed in recent years which allow many government agencies such as the I.R.S., O.S.H.A., E.P.A., B.L.M., and drug enforcement agencies to confiscate property from citizens that are considered rebels. Much of this confiscation is achieved without due process of law.Not sure about the legitimate decisions of regulating bodies here but these things hardly occur without a process. What would be the alternative if actions on your private property destroyed the value of my private property? There's no sliding the slope to communism here, only necessary interventions any society needs to function.

Again, unless anarchism is the hill you want to live on.


Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve System was created in 1913. It is not federally owned and nothing is in reserve. It is a private corporation with the power to increase or decrease the money supply by changing the interest rates and the reserve requirements of its member banks. It can create money out of thin air, lend it to the government and then collect the principal and interest from the taxpayers. That is why its owners always have and always will promote war and socialism to create inextinguishable government debt.
"Permit me to control the currency of a nation and I care not who makes its laws." -Baron De Rothschild, brainchild of the Federal Reserve Bank.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -Thomas Jefferson


[snip same stuff]Sure, like the private system has worked so well. That's why the world economy just tanked.

Again, you are trying to make the case there is either libertarian anarchy or communism and nothing in between. You can't make that case.

Free education for all children in public schools.... Communist and socialist have long recognized the value of indoctrination through a free educational system. And, it has produced a people with no understanding of the vast differences between the Free Enterprise System and socialism. During our Bicentennial celebrations (1986), a national poll of school children revealed that 46% of them believed that "From him with the most ability - to him with the most need" was part of our Constitution. Today all socialist, all liberals and most democrats believe the same thing.You also cannot make the case that because one system supports free education no other system can do the same. This logic doesn't fly. Other than minimal standards how has the country moved toward uniform indoctrination in schools?


If this source really indicative of the crap you believe, wow, that's pretty bad.

[gtc]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

Americans lost many times more people in WWII than were lost at Pearl Harbour but that isn't the basis on which WWII is judged.

I don't see why we should base our judgement on the WOT on the basis of the number of Americans killed alone.

[Texas]

Ignoring the fact you've reiterated the false claim Wolf's book said anything of the kind about already being fascist, let's look at these claims: Someone can steal from you also, does that mean you don't really own anything? You could lose a lawsuit, so you don't really own your money. Rather than this being on the slope to communism, I'd say it's closer to coming down a tad off the hill of anarchism.

Same thing. No government, no community obligations, that's anarchy not a capitalist democracy. You seem to think it's anarchy or communism. No in between exists by these arguments.


God given property rights? :rolleyes:


And the drawbacks, they are progressive and take a huge % of poor people's income and only a teeny tiny fraction of rich people's income. I'd say that was closer to a system of serfdom.


Not sure about the legitimate decisions of regulating bodies here but these things hardly occur without a process. What would be the alternative if actions on your private property destroyed the value of my private property? There's no sliding the slope to communism here, only necessary interventions any society needs to function.

Again, unless anarchism is the hill you want to live on.


Sure, like the private system has worked so well. That's why the world economy just tanked.

Again, you are trying to make the case there is either libertarian anarchy or communism and nothing in between. You can't make that case.

You also cannot make the case that because one system supports free education no other system can do the same. This logic doesn't fly. Other than minimal standards how has the country moved toward uniform indoctrination in schools?


If this source really indicative of the crap you believe, wow, that's pretty bad.
So you don't buy the Communism argument? Why am I not surprised? I concider both sources crap but unlike you, I actually live in the real United States not the fevered imaginary USA of the fringe at either end of the political spectrum. You should visit it, it really is a good place to live.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, the risks these folks ran in resisting American fascism! They were all just on the verge of being put into concentration camps by the evil fascist Bush and his henchman Cheney, when the savior Obama came and rescued them.

....What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?

[Texas]

What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?Please provide a link to large numbers of deportations. Renditions have been used for 20 years. Openly condones tough interrogation methods condoned by Congress, Warrantless wiretapping of foreign to domestic calls and survived all legal challenges, fired people that serve at the pleasure of the president and perfectly legal, Invaded a country with full authorisation of an almost unanimous congress. Give it a rest, Bush was well within constitutional bounds for every thing you accuse him of.

[Ziggurat]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

I've noticed. But why do you think that's surprising? Our response to Pearl Harbor left far more Americans dead than Pearl Harbor itself did - orders of magnitude more. That's how most wars go. The only sure-fire way to avoid that is to just keep letting the enemy hit you, so you can rack up pre-response deaths to a sufficient level. Quite a strategy, that.

[Pardalis]

Those fascist only forgot one thing: stay in power.

Everything Skeptigirl can say is easily debunked by the last elections.

[BeAChooser]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

But you don't have a crystal ball as to what would be the death toll now had we not invaded. Surely you don't believe those terrorists we've captured and killed as a result of invading Iraq wouldn't have killed any Americans anywhere else? Jordan already convicted a dozen who were involved in a terrorist plot hatched in Baghdad before the war by some of those we killed. Had it been successful, it would have killed everyone in the US embassy in Amman and perhaps tens of thousands of Jordanians.

[Sefarst]

What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?

No, which is why we have court systems, free speech and freedom of the press. It's nice to see you backing away from your ridiculous earlier claims though. Stop trying to re-organize your argument by cherry-picking details that you think can somehow save yours and Wolf's initial premises, admit you were wrong, and move on.

And because I didn't get to do it the first time around, LOL Naomi Wolf.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Those fascist only forgot one thing: stay in power.

Everything Skeptigirl can say is easily debunked by the last elections.There is an alternative explanation, Pard. The fact I and thousands of others did speak up resulted in people listening and taking action, as opposed to swallowing their Soma (http://www.huxley.net/soma/somaquote.html) like good little citizens.

The fact Obama was such a welcome change and Bush so poorly thought of is telling. It tells us I was right from the beginning.

The fact that views such as those of 'Texas' here are common tells us we cannot get complacent about it.

[Sefarst]

There is an alternative explanation, Pard. The fact I and thousands of others did speak up resulted in people listening and taking action, as opposed to swallowing their Soma (http://www.huxley.net/soma/somaquote.html) like good little citizens.

Yes, you're quite the little heroine. We're all very proud of you for saving us from this fascist dictator. Being Commander and Chief of the most powerful military in the history of the world was no match for your blogs, petitions, and opinion polls.

The fact Obama was such a welcome change and Bush so poorly thought of is telling. It tells us I was right from the beginning.

Non sequitur of the year? An unpopular president being replaced by a more popular one proves the unpopular was a fascist?

The fact that views such as those of 'Texas' here are common tells us we cannot get complacent about it.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The US hasn't gone through anything comparable with what Germany went through during WWI since the American Civil War.

America hasn't gone through anything like what germany went through since that time when they did.

Brilliant deduction.

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, which is why we have court systems, free speech and freedom of the press. It's nice to see you backing away from your ridiculous earlier claims though. Stop trying to re-organize your argument by cherry-picking details that you think can somehow save yours and Wolf's initial premises, admit you were wrong, and move on.

And because I didn't get to do it the first time around, LOL Naomi Wolf.I made no ridiculous earlier claims. Many of the right wing nutters in this forum take everything I post and add about 20 pounds of leftist crap to it before their brains process what I've said.

You are doing the same here claiming I've somehow now shifted my position. What you think I said may have shifted, but my political sentiments have not. The only thing that is different now from 2 years ago is the risk has been greatly reduced.

This goes to Pard's post as well. Instead of looking at where Georgie took this country over the last 8 years, Bush supporters in this discussion are claiming, "See, it didn't get worse". They are not claiming, "See it wasn't that bad". Instead of noticing that once the picture of this administration finally got around the the citizens who were paying less attention than some of us, those citizens agreed, it was that bad.

You have replied that the system self corrected without noting Bush was guilty of ignoring the rule of law under that system. You talked right past what I posted: detaining people without trial, torturing prisoners, spying on all citizens, using the Justice Department as a private law firm used to attack political opponents, these are not what you've posted: court system and free speech.

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened. I think it's time to start a new thread: "We told you so."

[gtc]

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened. I think it's time to start a new thread: "We told you so."

No one can seriously argue that McCain would have won the election but for shrill nonsense like 'Fascist America'.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

You have replied that the system self corrected without noting Bush was guilty of ignoring the rule of law under that system. You talked right past what I posted: detaining people without trial, torturing prisoners, spying on all citizens, using the Justice Department as a private law firm used to attack political opponents, these are not what you've posted: court system and free speech.

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened. I think it's time to start a new thread: "We told you so."

Seems rather self-contradictory that you can give a laundry list of terrible things that Bush did and continued to do until the day he left office and then claim that "concerned citizens" effected change.

Not only did Bush get re-elected, but as of the day he left office, we were still in Iraq. We're still in Afghanistan. He didn't back off on torture. He didn't back off on how he used the justice department. He didn't back off on wiretapping. The economy is in the toilet. The deficit is soaring. And Bush left office after 8 years.

What, exactly, was the change effected by these "concerned citizens"??

That Bush's term ended?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Seems rather self-contradictory that you can give a laundry list of terrible things that Bush did and continued to do until the day he left office and then claim that "concerned citizens" effected change.The changing tide of American opinion is a dynamic process. Just like the Vietnam War protests, people stir and the movement grows. I'm not sure one could say the movement would have grown regardless of the stirred up people. There are clearly many things involved in such a shift of political sentiment over time.

I can say that the opinions I held 8 years ago were proven right. Bush was incompetent. He did start a needless war. He was moving the country in a very dangerous direction.

Not only did Bush get re-elected,And I got louder in 04 as did the 50% of the voters who were informed and voted against Bush. But there was still 50% of the country not aware of how bad the guy was.

but as of the day he left office, we were still in Iraq. We're still in Afghanistan. He didn't back off on torture. He didn't back off on how he used the justice department. He didn't back off on wiretapping. The economy is in the toilet. The deficit is soaring. And Bush left office after 8 years.

What, exactly, was the change effected by these "concerned citizens"??

That Bush's term ended?They didn't elect McCane/Palen for one. More people recognize the incompetence and dangerous acts of Bush's. The majority of people in the country support change and stood up against the violations of law.

As for more progress faster, you want 8 years undone in 8 days? That's a bit much don't you think?

There is an investigation into the wiretaps and Justice Department abuses including identifying every one of the Bush political appointees. Torture and Gitmo were denounced and actions are being taken to close Gitmo.

As for the economy, I think Obama will take effective actions but we all have to wait and see. We know concentrating wealth at the top and not regulating greed failed.

We have to wait and see about Afghanistan and Iraq. I sense a change of direction. If we haven't changed substantially in a year, your concerns will be noted and you can say you were right and I wasn't. But you can't legitimately say that after 8 days. I ain't buying it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

No one can seriously argue that McCain would have won the election but for shrill nonsense like 'Fascist America'.Right, for 8 years, that's all I've had to say. :rolleyes:

And, BTW, when I say my views, I'm talking about all progressives, not me as an individual. Left of center politically did not support the incompetent b@&+@rd. You, OTOH, cannot support your political views with all the successes you imagined GW was going to bring you.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

The changing tide of American opinion is a dynamic process. Just like the Vietnam War protests, people stir and the movement grows. I'm not sure one could say the movement would have grown regardless of the stirred up people. There are clearly many things involved in such a shift of political sentiment over time.

And just like the Vietnam War protests, nothing changed until people who had nothing to do with the so-called "movement" started getting fed up and voting as such. And they still had nothing to do with any "movement," they were just regular people who voted and then went back to their lives.


I can say that the opinions I held 8 years ago were proven right. Bush was incompetent. He did start a needless war. He was moving the country in a very dangerous direction.

And yet you were powerless to change anything. He got re-elected. Everything he wanted to do, he did. "Concerned citizens" didn't bring about change, the end of his term and his own screw-ups did.


And I got louder in 04 as did the 50% of the voters who were informed and voted against Bush. But there was still 50% of the country not aware of how bad the guy was.

And in spite of getting louder, Bush got 10 million more votes and went from 47% to over 50% of the electorate, and his margin of victory increased. Clearly, getting louder didn't do much. Clearly, "the movement" failed utterly.


They didn't elect McCane/Palen for one. More people recognize the incompetence and dangerous acts of Bush's. The majority of people in the country support change and stood up against the violations of law.

That's like saying many people recognize they were driving too fast after crashing. Yes, after 8 years, people didn't want to have anything to do with Bush. Again, my point: if you want to take credit for "being right" that's your business. But you can't very well claim that "concerned citizens" effected change, given that Bush did just about what he wanted, at will, for 8 years. If anything, the opposition to Bush was remarkably ineffective while he was in office.

It's telling that after 8 years of Bush, McCain and Obama were running neck and neck in August, until the stock market began crashing. To harken back to another famous Democrat... "It's the economy..." and so forth.


As for more progress faster, you want 8 years undone in 8 days? That's a bit much don't you think?

Again -- so the great change effected over 8 years was that Bush left office on time. Okay... I mean, it's just not all that impressive of a movement.


As for the economy, I think Obama will take effective actions but we all have to wait and see. We know concentrating wealth at the top and not regulating greed failed.

We have to wait and see about Afghanistan and Iraq. I sense a change of direction. If we haven't changed substantially in a year, your concerns will be noted and you can say you were right and I wasn't. But you can't legitimately say that after 8 days. I ain't buying it.

I'm not debating whether or not Obama will change things. I am saying that the opposition to Bush accomplished very little in 8 years, and the impetus for change was not any brilliant maneuvers by "concerned citizens," it wasn't protests, it wasn't MoveOn, it wasn't even the Democratic Congress, who somehow managed to garner approval ratings lower than Bush's. It was people losing their jobs and the stock market crashing in time for the presidential elections.

You seem overly eager to give credit to some "movement" rather than to the fact that Bush himself was terrible -- and it didn't take a "movement" for people to understand that. I don't think I know anyone who saw a protest and said, "Hey, I'm going to vote for Obama!" I do know people who said, "What a disaster we're in. Obama seems like a better choice." And they knew we were in a disaster because they watched the stock market drop 900 points, not because someone told them Bush was bad.

Bush, himself, accomplished what his opposition "movement" never could: he got a majority of the people to vote Democrat.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Interesting point of view, ARCWAP, but I don't share it. I wish we'd have been more effective sooner, but I don't think the Obama bandwagon and Bush low approval ratings count for nothing just because they didn't coincide exactly with the 04 election.

[gtc]

They didn't elect McCane/Palen for one.

I believe there were fewer 'e's in their names and more 'i's.

The majority of people in the country support change and stood up against the violations of law.

Do you have any evidence that a majority of Americans were convinced that such violations existed?

[gtc]

Right, for 8 years, that's all I've had to say. :rolleyes:

Did you read the word 'like' in my sentence?

And, BTW, when I say my views, I'm talking about all progressives, not me as an individual.

Well duh!

Left of center politically did not support the incompetent b@&+@rd. You, OTOH, cannot support your political views with all the successes you imagined GW was going to bring you.

Do you realise that you are talking complete nonsense?

Why don't you try again.

You have made a claim:

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened.

Now prove it.

Show some evidence that change wouldn't have happened except for 'concerned citizens who were paying attention'. Don't resort to silly characterisations of people who don't subscribe to your political dogma, stick to actual evidence.

[gtc]

Again -- so the great change effected over 8 years was that Bush left office on time. Okay... I mean, it's just not all that impressive of a movement.

Imagine what it would have been like without them. Bush would have declared himself President for life, invaded Iran and imprisoned every registered Democrat. Thank goodness he failed!

[Kevin_Lowe]

Show some evidence that change wouldn't have happened except for 'concerned citizens who were paying attention'. Don't resort to silly characterisations of people who don't subscribe to your political dogma, stick to actual evidence.

I think it's implausible to think that more people did not become aware of the failures and crimes of the Bush administration as a direct result of the various investigations, lawsuits and protests organised by concerned citizens.

The extent of this effect is unknowable, but if you think it didn't exist I'd very much like to hear your reasoning.

[Bob Klase]

Instead of looking at where Georgie took this country over the last 8 years, Bush supporters in this discussion are claiming,

I really don't think you're capable of distinguishing between 'Bush supporters' and 'people who don't agree with everything you think on every issue'. I'm not even sure you can tell the difference between 'Bush supporters' and 'people who question inaccuracies in things you write'.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I really don't think you're capable of distinguishing between 'Bush supporters' and 'people who don't agree with everything you think on every issue'. I'm not even sure you can tell the difference between 'Bush supporters' and 'people who question inaccuracies in things you write'.There may be people in addition to Bush supporters who are continuing to apologize for Bush's policies. As for questioning inaccuracies, I take great care drawing evidence based conclusions be it in politics or other subjects. If people wish to provide supporting evidence contradicting my conclusions, I look seriously and closely at that.

At the same time, the majority of right wing posters here don't have evidence to back up their positions or they simply ignore the evidence against them. The politics forum is the least skeptical of all the forums here. But the evidence remains after all the opinions.

There is no denying now that the NeoCon experiment here was a proven disaster. I've spoken about the abuses in the Justice Department and the illegal spying and the other excesses of the Bush admin. repeatedly. Now that a lot more evidence is on the table, care to show specifically where I've been wrong?

I don't doubt lots of people in this forum don't see it that way. That is the nature of god beliefs and political beliefs. For that matter there are plenty of woo supporters posting all the time about their convictions on where the truth lies as well. My truth lies in the supporting evidence. Am I always right? Of course not. But I do go by the evidence whether you believe that is the case or not.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Imagine what it would have been like without them. Bush would have declared himself President for life, invaded Iran and imprisoned every registered Democrat. Thank goodness he failed!If you search hard enough, you'll find a past post of mine where I mentioned that lots of people believed Nixon was going to declare Martial Law and do something similar and it never happened. I went on to say I think the same is true with Bush. He isn't going to do any such thing and the country is not on the verge of becoming a dictatorship.

The reason for taking a serious look at what Wolf had to say here wasn't because Bush was going to take over the country. It was because a lot of Americans were supporting Bush's dangerous policies, ignoring the consequences of such policies.

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Do you have any evidence that a majority of Americans were convinced that such violations existed?That the violations existed, I think the evidence supports that is the general public sentiment. That these were criminal acts that should be prosecuted, people are reluctant to go that far.

Only Bush on the environment and hostility toward the poor seem to be disputed in this Wiki article on Criticism of George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush).

There are no specific polls recently asking about Bush/Cheney crimes. There is one asking about Bush war crimes.
War Crimes Survey (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/pt_survey_toplines/january_2009/toplines_bush_war_crimes_january_23_24_2009)

But again, if you word the question as, "should these be prosecuted?", you don't get the same answer as when you ask, "was this illegal?"

Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. April 8-11, 2006. N=1,357 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). (http://www.pollingreport.com/bush.htm) (scroll down 3/4 page)
"As you may also know, a U.S. senator has called for a Senate resolution to censure George W. Bush, which is a formal expression of disapproval, but does not carry any legal consequences. The senator claims it was illegal for Bush to authorize government agencies to use electronic surveillance to monitor American citizens without a court warrant. What do you think? Do you think that George W. Bush should be censured by the Senate for this, or not?"

----------------Should -----------Should Not------------Unsure
------------------% ----------------%---------------------%
ALL adults--------46----------------45---------------------9
Democrats--------65----------------23--------------------12
Independents-----53----------------38---------------------9
Republicans-------19----------------75---------------------6

"If George W. Bush broke the law when he authorized government agencies to use electronic surveillance to monitor American citizens without a court warrant, do you think that is an impeachable offense, or not an impeachable offense?"

-----------------Is-----------Is Not-----------Unsure
-----------------%-------------%---------------%
ALL adults-------36------------56----------------8

That was 2 years ago. At that time you had people leaning toward illegal but not impeachable.

There are other reports on poll questions re Bush crimes at the link. But people have mixed feelings that impeaching and trying crimes have other implications beyond just believing crimes were committed. So no poll asks the specific question, do you believe Bush committed crimes.



Of course, if you wait a few months until information comes out which was being suppressed by Bush while he was in office, you will see more people recognizing how bad this admin as been in terms of abuse of power and flaunting the law.

[gtc]

The war crimes survey said that 25% of people thought he had committed a war crime. The last survey seems to be saying that 46% of people supported a 'formal expression of disapproval' that 'does not carry any legal consequences' for the use of 'electronic surveillance to monitor American citizens without a court warrant'.

That does not support your claim that:

At that time you had people leaning toward illegal but not impeachable.

Or your original claim that:

The majority of people in the country ... stood up against the violations of law.

[Pardalis]

There is an alternative explanation, Pard. The fact I and thousands of others did speak up resulted in people listening and taking action, as opposed to swallowing their Soma (http://www.huxley.net/soma/somaquote.html) like good little citizens.

Didn't most people vote for the same party they've always voted for?

It tells us I was right from the beginning.

Not about the fascist thing.

Fascism without power is not fascism, by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[Skeptic Ginger]

The war crimes survey said that 25% of people thought he had committed a war crime. The last survey seems to be saying that 46% of people supported a 'formal expression of disapproval' that 'does not carry any legal consequences' for the use of 'electronic surveillance to monitor American citizens without a court warrant'.

That does not support your claim that:



Or your original claim that:Standing up against law violations does not equate to how one answers a survey, nor were "war crimes" the only ones. I stand by what I said.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Didn't most people vote for the same party they've always voted for?



Not about the fascist thing.

Fascism without power is not fascism, by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FascismFrom WikiFascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, races, and other people as part of a social Darwinist and militarist view that conflict between these groups is a natural process and a part of evolution in which only strong nations and races can survive and preserve their honour through competion, expansionism, and war.[5][6] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[7][8][9]

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of weak people rather than promoting strong people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to government and other institutions that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20](emphasis mine)

The NeoCon movement, of which Bush and Cheney were a part, leaned in this direction. Seems a lot of people don't consider suspending habeas corpus, torture, mass spying on citizens, and so on bad enough to warrant language as strong as the term, fascism. Suit yourself.

[Pardalis]

From Wiki(emphasis mine)

The NeoCon movement, of which Bush and Cheney were a part, leaned in this direction. Seems a lot of people don't consider suspending habeas corpus, torture, mass spying on citizens, and so on bad enough to warrant language as strong as the term, fascism. Suit yourself.

And what about the rest of the text you didn't emphasise which doesn't describe in any way at all, by any stretch of the imagination, the Bush administration?

[Ziggurat]

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.

Yeah, um... that's not the Bush administration. There was more criticism than you could shake a stick at.

[Texas]

Yeah, um... that's not the Bush administration. There was more criticism than you could shake a stick at.
About the only "criticism" he didn't get was a bullet in the head but he did get 2 shoes and a grenade thrown at him.

[gtc]

Standing up against law violations does not equate to how one answers a survey,

Indeed. However, it would be odd if the majority of people 'stood up against the law violations' if they did not think that crimes were committed. Can you explain this?

nor were "war crimes" the only ones.

I am aware that you have claimed that other crimes were committed, indeed you presented surveys that asked Americans whether they thought Bush should be censured for illegal wiretaps.

I stand by what I said.

You stand by something for which you are able to provide no evidence and for which the available evidence actually argues against.

And what about the rest of the text you didn't emphasise which doesn't describe in any way at all, by any stretch of the imagination, the Bush administration?

You noticed that too.

[Skeptic]

So, Bush is similar in some ways to Hitler. So is Obama. So am I. So is James Randi. So what? It's the same fallacy as in the "Bible code": since there's a huge number of ways to compare any two people (or oganizations), it is not at all surprising that you'll find some -- indeed many -- similarities, if that's what you set out to do.

Another fallacty here is the belief that somehow "people standing up against law violations" were the cause that Bush didn't actually become dictator. Using the same logic I can argue that the REAL reason Bush didn't diclare martial law and himself dictator-for-life is that I uttered the words "Mumbo Jumbo" every morning.

[gumboot]

The NeoCon movement, of which Bush and Cheney were a part, leaned in this direction. Seems a lot of people don't consider suspending habeas corpus, torture, mass spying on citizens, and so on bad enough to warrant language as strong as the term, fascism. Suit yourself.


With anything like this, of course, it's the degree of use that makes the difference. The reason these sorts of things are associated with facism is not because a facist state may, from time to time, employ some of those tactics. The reason they're associated with facism is because they're part of standard methodology under a dictatorship.

Despite the furor over these issues, how often did the US government suspend habeas corpus? How often did the US government commit torture? How often did the US government spy on citizens?

The answer is "hardly ever". Even if every single one of the people detained at Guantanamo Bay was tortured (and best reports are the majority weren't), they still represent a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all people detained by the US in the previous eight years. In 2005 alone the FBI estimates that US law enforcement officers made over 14 million arrests. If that's an average, during the Bush Administration, 112 million arrests were made. 112 million times, people were detained by this apparent fascist state. And of those 112 million instances, how often did torture occur?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I read Wolf's points and see the analogies. Others read it and think the implication is too extreme. There is no reason to think either side is going to be convinced the other is right. It's a value judgment. There is no right or wrong here, just different points of view.

[Pardalis]

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law


Yep, that's exactly what's going on in Iran right now.

Where is Naomi Wolf?

[dudalb]

And I see a certain resembelence between Naomi Wolf's laundy list and the "America is Going Communist" crap we hear from the Tea Party Loons.

[Skeptic]

Certainly. But at least the tea party loons don't pretend to care oh so much about human rights all over the world.

[Skeptic]

I read Wolf's points and see the analogies. Others read it and think the implication is too extreme. There is no reason to think either side is going to be convinced the other is right.

Weeeellllllllllllll, except for the fact that nothing Wolf said actually happened.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep, that's exactly what's going on in Iran right now.

Where is Naomi Wolf?Do you think Wolf would somehow approve of or support the current Iranian dictatorship?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Weeeellllllllllllll, except for the fact that nothing Wolf said actually happened.1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
war against "terrorism"

2. Create a gulag
Gitmo and Bagram

3. Develop a thug caste
Encouragement of the Tea Party gun toters.

4. Set up an internal surveillance system
Data mining, ignore FISA laws and court altogether

5. Harass citizens' groups
Spying on anti war protesters

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
Extraordinary rendition

7. Target key individuals
Ambassador Wilson

8. Control the press
Purposeful leak to the NYTs then sent the talking heads around to the Sunday talk shows to reference the NYTs article as if it were independent investigation

9. Dissent equals treason
Fired everyone who disagreed with Bush

10. Suspend the rule of law
The epitome of the Bush Cheney presidency.



All of these things were happening when Wolf wrote her piece on how these things mirrored fascism.

In the discussion in this thread, the trend towards a fascist philosophy was confused with a totalitarian takeover of the US government. A totalitarian takeover of the government is not what Wolf predicted would occur. Rather, she suggested Bush/Cheney administration was operating with a fascist philosophy. They felt justified (and Cheney's post administration speeches bear this conclusion out) in increasing Presidential power and in controlling many things considered unconstitutional to control.

That doesn't mean Wolf thought Bush/Cheney were on the verge of carrying out a military coup.


What's mind boggling is the Tea Party spokespersons are so up in arms about the fake claims which have been propagandized into their heads about Obama: health care reform is socialism- it's not; taxes are going up- they went down for the vast majority of the population; gun control is coming - there's not been a single step in this direction; Obama would weaken the military - he's pulling out of Iraq and upping the involvement in Afghanistan, Gitmo is still there and new military detainees are being shifted to Bagram. While during the Bush/Cheney administration when the rights of citizens were seriously eroded and the hubris of the Presidential power was enormous, these same people weren't all that concerned.

It demonstrates the vocal Tea Party members are no more than sheep, blindly following the right wing talking points, apparently unable to think for themselves.

[Cobalt]

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
war against "terrorism"
lol, ignorance.

2. Create a gulag
Gitmo and Bagram
lol.

3. Develop a thug caste
Encouragement of the Tea Party gun toters.
0/10 you're an awful troll

4. Set up an internal surveillance system
Data mining, ignore FISA laws and court altogether
lol

5. Harass citizens' groups
Spying on anti war protesters
lol.

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
Extraordinary rendition
didn't we do this thread years ago?

7. Target key individuals
Ambassador Wilson
what?

8. Control the press
Purposeful leak to the NYTs then sent the talking heads around to the Sunday talk shows to reference the NYTs article as if it were independent investigation
ha ha ha, oh wow

9. Dissent equals treason
Fired everyone who disagreed with Bush
you're joking right?

10. Suspend the rule of law
The epitome of the Bush Cheney presidency.
I retract my previous score, you're a -5/10 troll. Lrn2internet.


All of these things were happening when Wolf wrote her piece on how these things mirrored fascism.

In the discussion in this thread, the trend towards a fascist philosophy was confused with a totalitarian takeover of the US government. A totalitarian takeover of the government is not what Wolf predicted would occur. Rather, she suggested Bush/Cheney administration was operating with a fascist philosophy. They felt justified (and Cheney's post administration speeches bear this conclusion out) in increasing Presidential power and in controlling many things considered unconstitutional to control.

That doesn't mean Wolf thought Bush/Cheney were on the verge of carrying out a military coup. These are the things that keep you from progressing in life. Lrn2present instead of whine about the past.


What's mind boggling is the Tea Party spokespersons are so up in arms about the fake claims which have been propagandized into their heads about Obama: health care reform is socialism- it's not; taxes are going up- they went down for the vast majority of the population; gun control is coming - there's not been a single step in this direction; Obama would weaken the military - he's pulling out of Iraq and upping the involvement in Afghanistan, Gitmo is still there and new military detainees are being shifted to Bagram. While during the Bush/Cheney administration when the rights of citizens were seriously eroded and the hubris of the Presidential power was enormous, these same people weren't all that concerned.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. Which makes this funny

It demonstrates the vocal Tea Party members are no more than sheep, blindly following the right wing talking points, apparently unable to think for themselves.
Because there's no such thing as left-wing sheep regurgitating talking points, unable to think for themselves.



wait....

[NWO Sentryman]

SG, go back to Prison Planet and thirdworldtraveler.

That laundry list has long been refuted.

You lost all credibility with that one. I suspect that you are now a 9/11 truther.

Gitmo and Bagram were not slave labour camps where millions were starved, killed or worked to death.

Em, how come millions havent been killed in fema death camps yet?

only terrorist and other criminals need to be worried about that and Bush did swear to protect america against terrorists "against all enemies foreign and domestic". Abe lincoln, woodrow wilson and FDR broke the constitution systematically as well when fighting a foreign enemy.

and what? they had been showing inflamatory signs supporting jihadists and the govt wanted to make sure whether or not they were affiliated.

only for suspected terrorists was rendition carried out.

that's politics SG

What? and only crank sites like thirdworldtraveler and Prison "the world is ruled by devil worshippers" Planet are free? the papers RIPPED into bush.

Evidence for that?

and finally, any proof that the US was under martial law with millions being sent to fema death camps.

so now you move the goalposts. Naomi wolf was going on about how bush would cancel the elections and kill us all in fema death camps for a long time. That didnt happen. Bush and Cheney were fighting against genuine dangerous enemies.

Look in the mirror on that one. You were saying bush and cheney were going to make America into Nazi Germany 2.0 and kill us all in Fema death camps. You'd like Len Hart.

This is clear evidence that the Paranoid Style has infected the left endemically.

ETA: the first point reminds me of the Drakaverse where people thought that the Draka werent a threat just before they were enslaved.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

This thread wasn't intended to be taken seriously.

[GreNME]

This is clear evidence that the Paranoid Style has infected the left endemically.

No more than has "the right" as far as I can tell, but don't let that stop you from making an ideological statement that's otherwise meaningless outside of partisan rhetoric.

I agree that this thread is ridiculous and that it's pretty much an exercise in SG's inability to admit mistakes and stop defending a position that's long since collapsed. However, implying that the subject of this thread speaks for the left is no more accurate than saying that Glen Beck (or Limbaugh, or Hannity, or Coulter) speaks for the right.

But again, don't let that stop you from throwing a partisan spitball.

[NWO Sentryman]

points taken GrenME.

And SG, i recommend the Paranoid style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. It's a really good essay and helps you understand that Naomi Wolf and the far right have some eerie similarities.

[GreNME]

Great recommend, NWO Sentryman. :)

I've read a few essays on the paranoid aspects in right and left politics that I wish I still had URLs for, as those would be applicable here as well. One really good one I had compared political paranoia to the kinds you see in both religious and brand loyalty arguments, and the funny thing is that US politics seems to often mix two of those three on a regular basis when it comes to political commentary any more, propagating a sort-of multiplied paranoia that just sort of seeps ridiculous theories.

Example of brand loyalty and politics: Hillary Clinton and (in a slightly different way) Barack Obama; Ron Paul and his son Rand; Joe the Plumber.

Example of religion and politics: Sarah Palin; Mike Huckabee; (back in his day) Jimmy Carter; Glenn Beck and (to a degree) Sean Hannity.

There are also those who have mixed all three, but usually not all at once. As you can see in the names I put above, there are some notably paranoid folks or folks with a paranoid following listed (most of them), and also a few (Huckabee, Obama) who are less so or not really much at all paranoid. I don't think the direction of the ideology (left or right) matters, because paranoia can creep in from any direction and needs very little nurturing to grow into stupid ideas.

[Skeptic Ginger]

SG, go back to Prison Planet and thirdworldtraveler.[snipped the rest of the lies].I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.

[NWO Sentryman]

I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.

"false ad homs"? I tore your claims to pieces.

There is no difference. TWT goes on abotu a secret cabal brainwashing us with the "Propaganda model" :rolleyes: and PP goes on about devil worshippers ruling the world. And TWT gives us the strawman Captain Planet lense of how the world and global politics works.

TWT also has a LOT of Cranks for contributors such as Paul Craig Roberts, John Pilger, John Stockwell and Michael parenti. It is another practicioner of what Richard Hofstadter (FSM rest his soul) called the Paranoid Style in American Politics. It is also staffed by Stalinists, Maoists and conspiranoids in general.

And you do realise that you just took your credibility and tortured it to death when you endorsed thirdworldtraveler as a "legit site?". There is NO difference, i repeat, NO difference between TWT and Prison Planet.

TWT is so lopsided that if the USA were up against the domination of the Draka, TWT would support the Draka.

[jsfisher]

I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.


Yep, no woo here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Conspiracy_Theories.html


No, wait....

[The Central Scrutinizer]

...Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles...

:dl:

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep, no woo here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Conspiracy_Theories.html


No, wait....Huffington Post also has bad articles about sCAM medicine. That doesn't discredit the entire site.

This article on TWT (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/Chalmers_Johnson_HC.html) addresses 911 as the result of 'blowback', not as the result of a conspiracy.

The purpose of TWT is to present points of view not presented by mainstream news. If you just wanted to look at inaccuracy, you'd find a lot more garbage in the mainstream news than you'd find on TWT.

[jsfisher]

Huffington Post also has bad articles about sCAM medicine. That doesn't discredit the entire site.

This article on TWT (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/Chalmers_Johnson_HC.html) addresses 911 as the result of 'blowback', not as the result of a conspiracy.

The purpose of TWT is to present points of view not presented by mainstream news. If you just wanted to look at inaccuracy, you'd find a lot more garbage in the mainstream news than you'd find on TWT.


You've conflated unintentional inaccuracy with extreme agenda.

[GreNME]

Huffington Post also has bad articles about sCAM medicine. That doesn't discredit the entire site.

This article on TWT (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/Chalmers_Johnson_HC.html) addresses 911 as the result of 'blowback', not as the result of a conspiracy.

The purpose of TWT is to present points of view not presented by mainstream news. If you just wanted to look at inaccuracy, you'd find a lot more garbage in the mainstream news than you'd find on TWT.

Are you really so willfully obtuse that you would ignore the loads of CT crap on that site? Here, explain the following "stories" you totally skipped over in your attempt to explain your defense of the site:

Top 10 Signs of the Impending U.S. Police State
American Prison Camps Are on the Way
An Introduction to False Flag Terror (Pearl Harbor and 9/11 specifically, the others are warped interpretation)
The Myth of Pearl Harbor
Operation Northwoods
False Flag Prospects, 2008 (2/08)
Pretty much all of their "Globalization" stories
Behind the Fog of Deception - Washington's real war aims
U.S. Intervention in the Middle East: Blood for Oil
Deadly Dependence - US petroleum policy is about global domination
The AFL-CIO Foreign Policy Program and the 2002 Coup in Venezuela: Was the AFL-CIO Involved?
CIA, Cocaine, and Death Squads
The CIA and Drugs
Colombia: Washington's Next Dirty War
Echoes of Vietnam (Colombia)
Political Economy of Narco-Terror State - Colombia & corporate profits
The U.S. "War on Drugs" Is an Assault on South America's Poorest

I mean, you seem to ignore the article "Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11 (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/9-11_Conspiracy.html)" which does claim conspiracy theorist oldies as fact, [url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/PhysicistChallenges_9-11.html]This one[/i] is pretty much standard Stephen Jones woo, and there's even a David Ray Griffin article listed right there along with the "JAQ" list of nonsense. And that article you claimed just called 9/11 "blowback" also implied that there was "no question" that the Pentagon was a legitimate target militarily (as if there were no civilians or "innocent bystanders" like the WTC), and that the WTC towers were arguably legitimate targets, along with bringing up PNAC and attempting to link it to Israel-- this guy doesn't really help make your point that the author isn't selling conspiracy theories, he's just using a different pitch.

Skeptic Ginger, you're the one in the past who has accused others of not acknowledging blind spots in their thinking process with irrationality being the result. Can you honestly take a step back, look at the articles I've mentioned in this post, and tell me that you aren't displaying what seems very much like that same type of blind spot yourself?

[Pardalis]

Do you think Wolf would somehow approve of or support the current Iranian dictatorship?

She's awfully silent about it. How American-centric of her.

Aren't you part Iranian yourself? If so, why aren't you picketing and participating in rallies for the release of political prisoners, and starting thread about the dangers of a fascist Iran and being an activist in support of the "green revolution"?

I mean, as a true liberal and human rights activist, surely you agree the humans in Iran are as important as the humans in America, right?

Instead of working hard at trying to find awkward and convoluted connections with fascism in America that often end up being fanciful and just not happening, why don't you work at attacking the genuine article in Iran?

I don't know if you noticed, or if you are able to (maybe you are too involved in your theories to realize how ridiculous they are), but you need to take a step back and look at your list you just pulled off your ass objectively. Really, look at it and compare it to what's going on in Iran right now. The contrast with Iran makes America look like Sweden.

[Kevin_Lowe]

She's awfully silent about it. How American-centric of her.

Aren't you part Iranian yourself? If so, why aren't you picketing and participating in rallies for the release of political prisoners, and starting thread about the dangers of a fascist Iran and being an activist in support of the "green revolution"?

I mean, as a true liberal and human rights activist, surely you agree the humans in Iran are as important as the humans in America, right?

Instead of working hard at trying to find awkward and convoluted connections with fascism in America that often end up being fanciful and just not happening, why don't you work at attacking the genuine article in Iran?

Pardalis, it has come to my attention that you have at some previous time expressed an opinion about something on an internet message board.

This makes you a complete hypocrite. How dare you do anything other than devote yourself full-time to solving the world's most pressing problems? I frankly do not care one whit whether you think other issues are interesting or important, or whether you think you are more able to effect change locally than internationally, or any excuses of that sort.

Shame on you, sir. Shame.

I do not expect to see any more posts from you until we have achieved a global Utopia. Get to work.

[Pardalis]

The Global Utopia is your job, you're the commie remember? :p

[Kevin_Lowe]

The Global Utopia is your job, you're the commie remember? :p

I don't have time to reply, I'm too busy solving the various social, political and economic problems of Gabon, Madagascar, Azerbaijan, Yemen, Kenya, Cambodia, Togo, Mayotte, Senegal, Bangladesh, Burundi, Haiti, Cameroon, Mauritania, Benin, Uganda, Pakistan, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, Comoros, The Gambia, Cote d'Ivoire, Swaziland, Tanzania, Lesotho, Laos, the Republic of the Congo, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Sudan, Burkina Faso, Malawi, Nigeria, Djibouti, Chad, Zambia, Mali, Mozambique, Somalia, Niger, Liberia, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone and Angola.

[Pardalis]

Good, that'll make less inane posts of yours to read.

[NWO Sentryman]

Bad Comparison. TWT is DEDICATED to Woo and is a practicioner of the Paranoid Style, whereas HP is a legitimate site.

Chalmers Johnson would have us think that Danegeld is the proper way to deal with terrorists and destroys his credibility when he justified 9/11.

Em, like the US being controlled by devil worshippers? If i went on FOX or CNN or the BBC and said that Bush and Obama are Satanists who regularly attend satanic rituals in Bohemian Grove, i'd get Sacked immediately. And in the us support for dictators section, there is an eerie absence of the fact that the US supported Stalin during WW2. If that doesnt destroy its credibility, then maybe the 9/11, fema death camps or cold war sections will.

I hereby propose a corollary to Scopie's law - whomever cites thirdworldtraveler as a legitimate source immediately loses them the argument.