He didn't get to be president ...

[Abdul Alhazred]

... so now he's running for Messiah.

Can any other Oscar winner claim the same?

Gore, U.N. Body Win Nobel Peace Prize (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071012/D8S7LVN00.html)

OSLO, Norway (AP) - Former Vice President Al Gore and the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change won the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize Friday for their efforts to spread awareness of man-made climate change and lay the foundations for counteracting it.

"I am deeply honored to receive the Nobel Peace Prize," Gore said. "We face a true planetary emergency. The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and spiritual challenge to all of humanity."

Gore's film "An Inconvenient Truth," a documentary on global warming, won an Academy Award this year and he had been widely expected to win the prize.

...

His accomplishment is in no way diminished by being shared with the international starvation promoting dictator-propper-uppers.

Really this should be under 'Religion', but 'Politics' is close enough.

Certainly not 'Science'.

[Gurdur]

Oh look, more anti-Gore, anti-science and anti-Nobel-Prize spam. You never tire, do you Abdul?

Must be a real crusher for you that the world moves on without you and you're reduced to nothing more constructive than mouthing off over and over again uselessly on bulletin boards.

[JoeEllison]

Oh look, more anti-Gore, anti-science and anti-Nobel-Prize spam. You never tire, do you Abdul?

Must be a real crusher for you that the world moves on without you and you're reduced to nothing more constructive than mouthing off over and over again uselessly on bulletin boards.

Yeah!

[Cain]

... so now he's running for Messiah.

Can any other Oscar winner claim the same?

Gore, U.N. Body Win Nobel Peace Prize (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071012/D8S7LVN00.html)

His accomplishment is in no way diminished by being shared with the international starvation promoting dictator-propper-uppers.

Really this should be under 'Religion', but 'Politics' is close enough.

Certainly not 'Science'.


Wow, you're even more annoying than Al Gore. How does Gore fashion himself as a Messiah? Remember it was George W. Bush who claimed God put him in the Oval office, who jabbed his thumb into his chest and claimed to do more for human rights than anyone else. You are such a deluded tool.

Al Gore wrote:
This award is even more meaningful because I have the honor of sharing it with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change -- the world's preeminent scientific body devoted to improving our understanding of the climate crisis -- a group whose members have worked tirelessly and selflessly for many years.

[Upchurch]

... so now he's running for Messiah.
He's not saying or doing anything he hasn't been saying or doing for decades. He just has more time to dedicate to it.


Really this should be under 'Religion', but 'Politics' is close enough.

Certainly not 'Science'.
Are you saying Gore's position is irrational or without scientific backing? My understanding is that most of the scientific community in the field are in agreement with him.

[This Guy]

He's not saying or doing anything he hasn't been saying or doing for decades. He just has more time to dedicate to it.



Are you saying Gore's position is irrational or without scientific backing? My understanding is that most of the scientific community in the field are in agreement with him.

Well, you've obviously not been reading the ongoing discussions on global warming in the science forum.

You see, (per those that dispute AGW) it's either not getting warm, or if it is, it's not human induced. And only the scientist that want to sink the world into economic ruin support the idea of human induced global warming. All those scientist that want to save us from such ruin know the truth, and that will set us free.

Or something like that.

;)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Must be a real crusher for you that the world moves on without you and you're reduced to nothing more constructive than mouthing off over and over again uselessly on bulletin boards.

And what are you doing here bothering about it if it's so inconsequential?

Afraid I might convince someone almost as intelligent as you if you don't pop in with a bit of a sneer? http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/BigGrin3.gif

In this context, spam == stuff you don't like. Two threads in two days is hardly spam by any non-baloney definition.

[Upchurch]

Well, you've obviously not been reading the ongoing discussions on global warming in the science forum.
Well, you've got me there.


(per those that dispute AGW)
And how many of those, who are climate scientists, are there? I'm really asking. I'm really not all that up to date on this issue.

[Abdul Alhazred]

... it's either not getting warm, or if it is, it's not human induced. And only the scientist that want to sink the world into economic ruin support the idea of human induced global warming.

...

Or global warming is real, but Al Gore style solution would be a disaster.

As for scientists "wanting" economic ruin -- Who says scientists any better at political solutions than they are a detecting sleight of hand?

It looks like that guilt-by-association smear is a part of the Gorean faith, just like calling "Evilutionists" Marxists is for some Christian fundies.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Oh wait, I almost forgot.

It's for the children.

[ImaginalDisc]

It looks like that guilt-by-association smear is a part of the Gorean faith, just like calling "Evilutionists" Marxists is for some Christian fundies.
Emphasis added.

Please don't do that again. I don't want to think of Gore being into Gor.

[JoeEllison]

Emphasis added.

Please don't do that again. I don't want to think of Gore being into Gor.

I'm sorry that you even know what that is... :cool:

[Upchurch]

It looks like that guilt-by-association smear is a part of the Gorean faith, just like calling "Evilutionists" Marxists is for some Christian fundies.
Does that mean that straw man smears are part of the anti-Gorean ...er, anti-Gore "faith"?

[Gurdur]

And what are you doing here bothering about it if it's so inconsequential?

Afraid I might convince someone almost as intelligent as you if you don't pop in with a bit of a sneer? http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/BigGrin3.gif

In this context, spam == stuff you don't like. Two threads in two days is hardly spam by any non-baloney definition.

*yawn*
More empty, bitter whine spam.

[Number Six]

"I am deeply honored to receive the Nobel Peace Prize," Gore said. "We face a true planetary emergency. The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and spiritual challenge to all of humanity."

There are two components to accomplishing something. One is knowing what to do and the other is doing it. Gore is halfway there on the first part. He says we need to take the politics out of it. That's good. Now he needs to say we need to take the religiion (i.e., morality and spirtuality) out of it. He needs to say "A good environment is part of the _infrastructure_ in which people live and on which they stand and to live their lives however they like. I don't care what you do with your life but just keep the world a decent place so you and I and everyone else can do whatever it is we want."

That would be show that he knows what to do. Then actually doing it would involve shunning anyone that tries to make it a religious or political issue.

Al Gore has done some good but not nearly as much as he could do considering the position he's in. The best thing he could do right now is go on Fox News every night and talk about the environment without being goaded into make it a political thing while simultaneously never drifting into "We all need to be in harmony with our environment"-ville. That would go a long way to de-politicizing and de-religiousizing the issue for a large segment of the population that are currently less likely to be on his side.

[Abdul Alhazred]

*yawn*
More empty, bitter whine spam.

Did I make you cry?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Look what I found over by Reason magazine.

Some Background on This Al Gore Guy (http://reason.com/news/show/122954.html)

Link farm to every story about him from Reason.

[Tricky]

Did I make you cry?
Actually, you're quite funny to watch.

But of course, you'll get to turn the tables and laugh, next time a Republican wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

[ConspiRaider]

Look what I found over by Reason magazine.

Some Background on This Al Gore Guy (http://reason.com/news/show/122954.html)

Link farm to every story about him from Reason.
Hurts, doesn't it? As a consolation prize, tune in the Pigboy, I'm sure he'll make you feel all better about the fact that Big Al got the Nobel and he (nominated by his dittohead listeners) did not. He'll minimize this down into a nice, bite-sized bitter pill that you'll be able to swallow with relative ease.

What are you doing in Chicago? That city is for normal (aka Democrats) people! GET OUT OF THERE!

[Undesired Walrus]

As much as I agree with Gore, he is so boring.

[Safe-Keeper]

Did I make you cry? No. But your immature rant did not exactly make me feel better, either.

Abdul... let me give you a tip. Perhaps if you took the time to actually read up on the decision and the more rational criticism it has received, you'd not have to resort to childish personal attacks on Al Gore. You might not even have had to declare the opposing view a '[rival?] religion'. Bush's speeches on the War on Terror are drenched in religious garbage, does that make the War on Terror a religion? Can I speak of 'Bushian faith'? No? Didn't think so.

Valid (there's that pesky sceptic word again!) criticism of Gore's reception of the peace prize might include that Nobel, in his testament, was quite specific about the prize being offered to individuals who 'work for brotherhood between people, reduction of standing armies and the foundation and expansion of peace congresses'. Which Gore has not done. Valid criticism might include the fact that Alfred never intended for organizations - such as the IPCC - to receive the Peace Prize.

But oh no, no studying for us. Let's head straight for ad hominem mode:rolleyes:.

Sigh. Listen, to you and everyone else doing what you're doing, it's very annoying to have to listen to irrational garbage when there actually are rational arguments out there supporting your position. Look those up next time instead of digging up attacks on Gore as a person.
That would go a long way to de-politicizing and de-religiousizing the issue for a large segment of the population that are currently less likely to be on his side.Dereligionize? And environmentalism became a religion when?

[ConspiRaider]

Valid(there's that pesky sceptic word again!) criticism of Gore's reception of the peace prize might include that Nobel, in his testament, was quite specific about the prize being offered to individuals who 'work for brotherhood between people, reduction of standing armies and the foundation and expansion of peace congresses'. Which Gore has not done. Valid criticism might include the fact that Alfred never intended for organizations - such as the IPCC - to receive the Peace Prize.
(bolding adjustments mine)

Lemme stop ya right there. In the role of catalyst, the global warming issue can easily be argued as being a key to establishing peace between peoples. Yessirree. The focus on global warming sharpens the lens aimed at whole-earth-affecting problems such as pollution, species extinction and natural disaster readiness and response, to name but a few. And the ONLIEST way these issues can be confronted is with worldwide acknowledgment, communication and support. That mindset can spawn the concepts of global sisterhood and brotherhood across the planet. Which ain't half bad.

Mucho congrats to Big Al. Recognition for his foresight and passion has been long overdue.

[JoeEllison]

As much as I agree with Gore, he is so boring.

What is this, 5th grade?

[Undesired Walrus]

What is this, 5th grade?

Being British, I fail to know this year in terms of my school years. However, knowing your confrontational nature, I can only assume it is you implying my comments belong in the classroom. Ok. They most likely do. So do jokes about trying to push out a massive, crusty poo, does that make it any less funny?

It doesn't change the fact that the man is so, so boring.

[JoeEllison]

Look what I found over by Reason magazine.

Some Background on This Al Gore Guy (http://reason.com/news/show/122954.html)

Link farm to every story about him from Reason.

Yeah, look what you found on some idiot libertarian wank website.

[JoeEllison]

Being British, I fail to know this year in terms of my school years. However, knowing your confrontational nature, I can only assume it is you implying my comments belong in the classroom. Ok. They most likely do. So do jokes about trying to push out a massive, crusty poo, does that make it any less funny?

It doesn't change the fact that the man is so, so boring.

Why did you find that the most pressing thing to post to this thread? Other than the fact that this is the sort of reflexive response to Al Gore, as promoted by the media for the last 8 years or so?

It would be like if some doctor found a cure for cancer, and you piped up with "yes, but her hairstyle doesn't suit her face."

[Undesired Walrus]

Why did you find that the most pressing thing to post to this thread? Other than the fact that this is the sort of reflexive response to Al Gore, as promoted by the media for the last 8 years or so?

It would be like if some doctor found a cure for cancer, and you piped up with "yes, but her hairstyle doesn't suit her face."

That's the biggest problem with Alexander Litvinenko, they couldn't find a cure, but his new hairstyle in his last days really suited him. Shame for the Putin rebellion and the fashion world.

If the end were to come, with the sea level rising and the storm clouds decending, I wouldn't want Gore to come to the worlds aid, mearly because the suicide rate from listening to his urgent speeches would kill off more of the worlds population then the threat of the enviroment itself.

Gore would probably be pleased he had that much impact.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Ya know... Gore is sounding more and more like a cult leader. He denounces "non-believers" without addressing their arguments. For the record I feel that the Earth is going through a NATURAL cycle of warming, and there's nothing we can do to fix it... while at the same time, anything that saves money and energy is a GOOD idea. To Gore, my position is the same as the position of a practitioner of voodoo as seen by the Pope.

He's no skeptic. He's a "Believer".

I also find it ironic that he received a "Peace" prize, and no prize in any of the science fields.

[dudalb]

(bolding adjustments mine)

Lemme stop ya right there. In the role of catalyst, the global warming issue can easily be argued as being a key to establishing peace between peoples. Yessirree. The focus on global warming sharpens the lens aimed at whole-earth-affecting problems such as pollution, species extinction and natural disaster readiness and response, to name but a few. And the ONLIEST way these issues can be confronted is with worldwide acknowledgment, communication and support. That mindset can spawn the concepts of global sisterhood and brotherhood across the planet. Which ain't half bad.

Mucho congrats to Big Al. Recognition for his foresight and passion has been long overdue.


Someone is not living in the real world.

[Safe-Keeper]

His accomplishment is in no way diminished by being shared with the international starvation promoting dictator-propper-uppers.Why do I get the feeling you wouldn't have made this remark if it had been one of 'your guys' who had won the peace prize.

It would be like if some doctor found a cure for cancer, and you piped up with "yes, but her hairstyle doesn't suit her face."And cancer is part of a natural cycle of life and death!

[Undesired Walrus]

Ya know... Gore is sounding more and more like a cult leader. He denounces "non-believers" without addressing their arguments.

Do you feel it is perhaps his confrontational nature and them/us mentality that is part of the reason you do not believe? (This isn't a slight on your character mate, just throwing out a possibility:))

[dudalb]

Ya know... Gore is sounding more and more like a cult leader. He denounces "non-believers" without addressing their arguments. For the record I feel that the Earth is going through a NATURAL cycle of warming, and there's nothing we can do to fix it... while at the same time, anything that saves money and energy is a GOOD idea. To Gore, my position is the same as the position of a practitioner of voodoo as seen by the Pope.

He's no skeptic. He's a "Believer".

I also find it ironic that he received a "Peace" prize, and no prize in any of the science fields.


I think Global Warming is real, but I admit that some of the over the top adoration of Gore by his supporters is scary. I don't think Gore can be blamed for this,but it is scary none the less. I have a huge mistrust of Messiahs.
What concerns a lot of people about Global Warming is that the issue has been polticised beyond belief. It is being used by the Left as another club to beat the Evil Capitalist system with. I agree that Gore would be wise to try to fashion a more politcally neutral apporach,but then he would alienate some of his strongest supporters.

[ConspiRaider]

Someone is not living in the real world.
There's no such thing. To us human-types, the "real world" is nothing more than a state of mind.

Minds can change.

[dudalb]

There's no such thing. To us human-types, the "real world" is nothing more than a state of mind.

Minds can change.


I have never seen a better defination of Woo.

[ConspiRaider]

I think Global Warming is real, but I admit that some of the over the top adoration of Gore by his supporters is scary. I don't think Gore can be blamed for this,but it is scary none the less. I have a huge mistrust of Messiahs.
What concerns a lot of people about Global Warming is that the issue has been polticised beyond belief. It is being used by the Left as another club to beat the Evil Capitalist system with. I agree that Gore would be wise to try to fashion a more politcally neutral apporach,but then he would alienate some of his strongest supporters.
What you don't know - what you are totally clueless about - is that Gore was on this AGW like hair on a gorilla: Back in the 1970s!!! He was ignored, ridiculed, minimized, discounted. No one gave a flip. He soldiered on with it, regardless.

He's no messiah to me. He's far from perfect. Regular guy, to me. His family was in the tobacco growing business, fer chrissakes. But he's adapted, adjusted, and moved forward. Then stumbled. Then ahead, again. Like you. Like me. Like anyone who is trying to grapple with life's complexities.

That Gore was trying to reveal this issue, and that Bush was trying to suppress truth on this issue is where the politics figures in. If you want to promote political neutrality - focus on the correct target. That'd be the Bush Administration. They wield direct political power. Gore does not.

[ConspiRaider]

I have never seen a better defination of Woo.
Is that a fact? Well! There was a time, in Europe, when witch burning was considered normal and righteous and good. Real world. Last time I checked, we stopped doing that. Do you think maybe minds were changed?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Actually, you're quite funny to watch.

But of course, you'll get to turn the tables and laugh, next time a Republican wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

No I won't.

I voted for a Republican just once, and it's like that NSFW story about the engineer who designed bridges. :D

[Abdul Alhazred]

Hurts, doesn't it? As a consolation prize, tune in the Pigboy, I'm sure he'll make you feel all better about the fact that Big Al got the Nobel and he (nominated by his dittohead listeners) did not. He'll minimize this down into a nice, bite-sized bitter pill that you'll be able to swallow with relative ease.

What are you doing in Chicago? That city is for normal (aka Democrats) people! GET OUT OF THERE!

Which one is Pigboy?

Would it shock you that I voted for Barack Obama?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Never too late for love, and never too late for Al Gore to run for president (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071012/us_time/gorewinsthenobelbutwillherun).

[JoeEllison]

He's no messiah to me.

He's no messiah to anyone. He's just a guy, full of the normal virtues and vices... which kind of makes him stand out compared to most politicians. The only reason people say that some people are "worshiping" him is to justify their unwarranted hatred of Al Gore. It makes them feel less extreme if they pretend that they are providing a counterbalance to a straw man "Gore-ist cult" that only exists in their imagination.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Al Gore doesn't need the prize money.

Will he spend it on carbon credits which he will then donate to the poor, so they can pollute, too?

[ImaginalDisc]

Al Gore doesn't need the prize money.

Will he spend it on carbon credits which he will then donate to the poor, so they can pollute, too?

That's not how carbon credits work.

[JoeEllison]

Al Gore doesn't need the prize money.

Will he spend it on carbon credits which he will then donate to the poor, so they can pollute, too?

Can your posts get any more childish and ignorant? Come on, do your best... we believe in you!:rolleyes:

[JoeEllison]

BTW, Al Gore has already pledged the money to the Alliance for Climate Protection.

[Number Six]

He's no messiah to anyone. He's just a guy, full of the normal virtues and vices... which kind of makes him stand out compared to most politicians. The only reason people say that some people are "worshiping" him is to justify their unwarranted hatred of Al Gore. It makes them feel less extreme if they pretend that they are providing a counterbalance to a straw man "Gore-ist cult" that only exists in their imagination.

There could be a lot less hatred if he'd go about things differently. People hate over politics and religion. He needs to separate global warming talk from politics as much as possible and from the woo-enviro type of religion too. And he needs to stay away from Oscar ceremonies too.

[Safe-Keeper]

Abdul, perhaps it'd help if you specified what this thread was about? First you rant about Gore winning the prize, then it's on to how you think he wants to run for president, and now you're talking about how he's rich?

This is starting to remind me of how DOC throws around random tidbits of factoids about Christians, such as 'Leif Eriksson was Christian' or 'Peter was in Rome' and then expect us to somehow tie it together and find a point.

Is this just a 'bash Gore' thread, or do you have a point to make, something for us to discuss?

[JoeEllison]

There could be a lot less hatred if he'd go about things differently. People hate over politics and religion. He needs to separate global warming talk from politics as much as possible and from the woo-enviro type of religion too. And he needs to stay away from Oscar ceremonies too.
Nonsense. The hatred existed first, and reality has been twisted to fit it.

And he was funny as **** at the Oscars!

[ConspiRaider]

Which one is Pigboy?

Would it shock you that I voted for Barack Obama?
Pigboy (AKA The Vulgar Pigboy, DrugBoy) is of course "phony soldiers" Limbaugh. The guy who makes more than 30 million dollars a year spreading hate on the public airwaves. Only in America.

You mean Obama for Senator. Wasn't his opponent some Repub guy who ran a sex operation or something?

[ConspiRaider]

BTW, Al Gore has already pledged the money to the Alliance for Climate Protection.
Beat me to it, Joe. Good eyes, good reflexes! :)

[ConspiRaider]

There could be a lot less hatred if he'd go about things differently. People hate over politics and religion. He needs to separate global warming talk from politics as much as possible and from the woo-enviro type of religion too. And he needs to stay away from Oscar ceremonies too.
The problem, Six, is that the Bush Administration is guilty of gross politicization of this issue. Al is responding, reacting. But Bush and Friends are - or were - being extremely proactive in the Suppression Of Info game concerning AGW. Talk about them instead of Gore. Or would you rather have me do it?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Do you feel it is perhaps his confrontational nature and them/us mentality that is part of the reason you do not believe? (This isn't a slight on your character mate, just throwing out a possibility:))

I'll give you that. dudalb mentioned some of my concerns on Gore's tactics to gain support. By attacking Western capitalism as the culprit, and wanting to impose taxes on wealthy nations to "fight global warming" while allowing China, Russia, and India to pollute at an exponential rate, AND restricting development in Africa from developing it's own industry to pull themselves up out of poverty.

I'm all for saving money and polluting less... My wife and I are building a house in a few years, and I'm looking into a Geothermal heat pump as well as some heat/water/electricity conservation solutions.

However, If Al Gore has his way, I may end up paying more in taxes to fix some slight, that may or may not get fixed. If it's a natural cycle, well, we just have to deal with it. He is selling Snake Oil to *reverse* global warming. If he's wrong, and the natural cycle can't be reversed, he can never be in the wrong. After all, he was just trying to save the world.

My other concern is the complete lack of oversight in "Carbon Offset" donations. It's feel good politics that amount to little more than buying shares in a R&D company and then giving the shares back. INVEST in a company that is researching solutions... Don't just give it away. Demand results. Demand transparency. I guess that's just the capitalist in me.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

You mean Obama for Senator. Wasn't his opponent some Repub guy who ran a sex operation or something?

Jeri Ryan's (7of9 in Star Trek) husband Jack Ryan. She was so hot he wanted to show her off by having sex with her in public at swingers clubs (no accusations of actual swinging was involved, just exhibitionism.)

He dropped out of the 2004 race because of sealed records (that someone broke the law by releasing to the press) and Alan Keyes moved to Illinois to run against Obama.

[Number Six]

The problem, Six, is that the Bush Administration is guilty of gross politicization of this issue. Al is responding, reacting. But Bush and Friends are - or were - being extremely proactive in the Suppression Of Info game concerning AGW. Talk about them instead of Gore. Or would you rather have me do it?

I don't doubt the Bush Administration are politicizing it but then again they're politicians in power so that's not surprising. Gore isn't a politician now, which gives him a chance to get above the political fray, but only if tries hard to avoid it because as you say others are going to try to politicize it. Going right at those politicizing it but doing so in a neutral way would be a good. Instead of being at the Oscars on Oscar night (and BTW a lot of people consider the Hollywood-types political so hanging around them may not be such a good thing anyway), he should've been on all the newstalk shows talking and saying "I don't really care about Oscars or any of that stuff, let's just make sure we keep the planet running well so people can do whatever recreation they like, such as Oscars or TV or whatever."

[dudalb]

Once again I find myself in the political middle. I think that Global Warming is real, but question a lot of the solutions which seem to me to be trying to sneak in an Authoritarian am concerned it is being exploitated by the more militant elements of the Left to stage an assault on the Free Market system. I am NOT saying that Gore supports this,but some elements of the movement do.
And once again I am irritated by the blind partisianship being shown by some posters here who seem to believe that All Democrats are GOOD,and all Republicans are EVIL. It is nothing but the kind of stupidity we have been getting from the Bush Administartion for the past Seven years in reverse.
This Blind Partisanship on both sides will be the Death of the US, I am afrad.

[ConspiRaider]

Jeri Ryan's (7of9 in Star Trek) husband Jack Ryan. She was so hot he wanted to show her off by having sex with her in public at swingers clubs (no accusations of actual swinging was involved, just exhibitionism.)

He dropped out of the 2004 race because of sealed records (that someone broke the law by releasing to the press) and Alan Keyes moved to Illinois to run against Obama.
Cool, SMZ, thanks. I'd only heard a brief reference to what happened there with Jack and Jeri. And how it basically paved the way for Obama. I think if I was married to Jeri I would tend to NOT want to have sex with her in public. In fact we'd probably never even have time to show up in public, ever.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

... so now he's running for Messiah.

Can any other Oscar winner claim the same?

Al Gore didn't win an Oscar.

[Abdul Alhazred]

I know that's not how carbon credits work. Have you no sense of sarcasm?

Of course not. No sense of humor when it comes to your pseudo-religion.

[ImaginalDisc]

I know that's not how carbon credits work. Have you no sense of sarcasm?

Of course not. No sense of humor when it comes to your pseudo-religion.

Please find even one paper published in a peer reviewed journal since 1993 that disputes the conclusion that Global Warming is happening, and that it at least partly anthropogenic.

See, if every climate scientist in the world has independently reached the same conclusion, it can hardly be a religion.

[Cleon]

Once again I find myself in the political middle. I think that Global Warming is real, but question a lot of the solutions which seem to me to be trying to sneak in an Authoritarian am concerned it is being exploitated by the more militant elements of the Left to stage an assault on the Free Market system.

And there, we see the core of the matter.

The fact is, AGW itself is a scientific issue. And the science is fairly emphatic about the fact that AGW is a fact. Politics only enter into it when it comes to solutions.

The question is one of the Free Market. For those who believe that the Free Market should handle all issues, AGW presents an inconvenient (har!) dilemma--the fact is, it's unlikely that the "Free Market" would be able to handle the issue by itself. Companies act out of self-interest, not out of loyalty to the global community. To a libertarian or libertarian-minded conservative, that's a good thing--selfishness drives profit, profit drives the economy, etc etc.

But to control AGW, you have to put controls on industry. There's simply no other realistic option. And putting controls on industry is an anathema to Free-Market worship.

So what to do for the Free Market fans? How do free-marketers handle the issue? Well, they declare that the entire AGW concept is BS and they want nothing to do with it. Which is not scientific, certainly not "skeptical," and more born out of ideoloogy than evaluation of the science behind it. Gore becomes a convenient target because he's 1) made a movie about the issue and 2) happens to be a Democrat.

This isn't new, either. 20 years ago, the Free Market crowd was telling us that cigarettes didn't really cause cancer, that the entire anti-smoking bit was nothing more than liberal alarmism, etc etc.

The lyrics may change, but they're still singing the same old tune.

So the question is, are the Free Marketers willing to critically examine their views, or is the Free Market ideology more important than the future of human civilization?

[JoeEllison]

So the question is, are the Free Marketers willing to critically examine their views, or is the Free Market ideology more important than the future of human civilization?

Certainly, the "Free market" is the only religious belief present in this thread.

[ImaginalDisc]

But to control AGW, you have to put controls on industry. There's simply no other realistic option. And putting controls on industry is an anathema to Free-Market worship.

That's only part of it. You need to tackle efficiency and conservation issues right down to the consumer level, too. Those drive the Free Market people even more nuts. Unfortunately for them, there is such a thing as a tragedy of the commons.

[TV's Frank]

And there, we see the core of the matter.

The fact is, AGW itself is a scientific issue. And the science is fairly emphatic about the fact that AGW is a fact. Politics only enter into it when it comes to solutions.

The question is one of the Free Market. For those who believe that the Free Market should handle all issues, AGW presents an inconvenient (har!) dilemma--the fact is, it's unlikely that the "Free Market" would be able to handle the issue by itself. Companies act out of self-interest, not out of loyalty to the global community. To a libertarian or libertarian-minded conservative, that's a good thing--selfishness drives profit, profit drives the economy, etc etc.

But to control AGW, you have to put controls on industry. There's simply no other realistic option. And putting controls on industry is an anathema to Free-Market worship.

So what to do for the Free Market fans? How do free-marketers handle the issue? Well, they declare that the entire AGW concept is BS and they want nothing to do with it. Which is not scientific, certainly not "skeptical," and more born out of ideoloogy than evaluation of the science behind it. Gore becomes a convenient target because he's 1) made a movie about the issue and 2) happens to be a Democrat.

This isn't new, either. 20 years ago, the Free Market crowd was telling us that cigarettes didn't really cause cancer, that the entire anti-smoking bit was nothing more than liberal alarmism, etc etc.

The lyrics may change, but they're still singing the same old tune.

So the question is, are the Free Marketers willing to critically examine their views, or is the Free Market ideology more important than the future of human civilization?

I don't know why you need to turn AGW into an anti-Free Market rant. What's stopping consumers from not purchasing products made from eco-unfriendly companies?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Please find even one paper published in a peer reviewed journal since 1993 that disputes the conclusion that Global Warming is happening, and that it at least partly anthropogenic.

See, if every climate scientist in the world has independently reached the same conclusion, it can hardly be a religion.

How many times do I have to repeat this?

I have never said there is no climate change.

Strawman out of way ...

Climate change is a fact.

Now you Goreans add exaggerations and lies and some apocalyptic hysteria to justify the same old failed solution to the problems of the last century.

OK something new has been added to the UN shtick. The carbon exchange business, a la Kyoto, etc.

It will never have an effect on climate change and is a financial bubble waiting to happen.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Climate change is a fact.

There is no logical connection between it and the Gorean program other than a useful pretext.

"Saving the planet", like "the children" and patriotism, is a refuge for scoundrels.

[ImaginalDisc]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

I have never said there is no climate change.

Strawman out of way ...

Climate change is a fact.

Now you Goreans add exaggerations and lies and some apocalyptic hysteria to justify the same old failed solution to the problems of the last century.

OK something new has been added to the UN shtick. The carbon exchange business, a la Kyoto, etc.

It will never have an effect on climate change and is a financial bubble waiting to happen.


On what grounds do you call me "Gorean?"

[JoeEllison]

On what grounds do you call me "Gorean?"

The bullwhip and the leather chaps?

[rtalman]

Love him or hate him, at least Gore is out taking a firm, clear stand on something. By my estimation, that alone makes him more qualified to run for POTUS in 2008 than any of the candidates on either side thus far.

[ConspiRaider]

I don't know why you need to turn AGW into an anti-Free Market rant. What's stopping consumers from not purchasing products made from eco-unfriendly companies?
Price.

Same reason people will buy crappy, overly processed food as compared to the healthy stuff.

Why do you think millions of us Americans waddled into Walmart and carted away all that lead-laden China-made crap on the shelves? Price, price, price. In the short term, people are always blinded by price. We're not trained to think long range - so we don't.

[JoeEllison]

Love him or hate him, at least Gore is out taking a firm, clear stand on something. By my estimation, that alone makes him more qualified to run for POTUS in 2008 than any of the candidates on either side thus far.

And, apparently, he doesn't want the job... which makes him doubly more qualified.

[This Guy]

Well, you've got me there.



And how many of those, who are climate scientists, are there? I'm really asking. I'm really not all that up to date on this issue.

I can't answer that accurately. And my comment was made with a lot of tongue in cheek. Note the winking smiley at the end :)

I was mostly trying to be funny. Sometimes being funny covers up for my being dumb. But more often it exposes that fact more blatantly ;)

I haven't seen Gore's film. I'm still confused by a lot of the back and forth between those that claim a strong human impact on global warming, versus those that dispute that impact.

The only things I'm pretty sure about is that it has gotten generally warmer where I live, since my childhood. We've broken many high temp records over the last few years, and snow fall, which while still low compared to more northern areas, was much more prevalent during winter than it has been over the last couple of decades.

[This Guy]

Or global warming is real, but Al Gore style solution would be a disaster.

As for scientists "wanting" economic ruin -- Who says scientists any better at political solutions than they are a detecting sleight of hand?

It looks like that guilt-by-association smear is a part of the Gorean faith, just like calling "Evilutionists" Marxists is for some Christian fundies.

Please see my reply to Upchurch, above :)

[Upchurch]

And my comment was made with a lot of tongue in cheek. Note the winking smiley at the end :)
Oh, I know, but it still spurred a tongue-not-in-cheek question from me. :p

[TV's Frank]

Price.

Same reason people will buy crappy, overly processed food as compared to the healthy stuff.

Why do you think millions of us Americans waddled into Walmart and carted away all that lead-laden China-made crap on the shelves? Price, price, price. In the short term, people are always blinded by price. We're not trained to think long range - so we don't.

If people chose price over all other considerations all the time, why are there any stores at all other than Wal-mart?

[ConspiRaider]

If people chose price over all other considerations all the time, why are there any stores at all other than Wal-mart?
Law of averages. :)

For every rule there are exceptions. There are just enough pain-in-the-asses like me around who keep those other stores in biz. Eventually - if you bark loud enough - they can become mainstream. In comes competition. Down go prices.

[JoeEllison]

If people chose price over all other considerations all the time, why are there any stores at all other than Wal-mart?

There's the other consideration: the "I'm too good for Wally-World" factor.

A buddy of mine and I were seriously considering starting a business at one point. There was no way we could really beat the name brands on any level except being 100% hand-made. What I realized later, after we had kind of given up, is that if you can't beat them on price, double or triple the price. If the average martini is $7, you'll never beat the competition by selling $9 martinis. On the other hand, if you give it a funny name and charge $22.50, people will pay a premium for the privilege of buying something too expensive for normal folks, even if it is actually no better than the cheaper thing.

[Abdul Alhazred]

I see the term 'Gorean' is causing unnecessary offense, so I apologize and won't use it again.

I haven't read through everything, maybe tomorrow.

[Number Six]

Price.

Same reason people will buy crappy, overly processed food as compared to the healthy stuff.

Why do you think millions of us Americans waddled into Walmart and carted away all that lead-laden China-made crap on the shelves? Price, price, price. In the short term, people are always blinded by price. We're not trained to think long range - so we don't.

That is why it would be good if there were a way to have things priced at their true cost.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

For ****'s sake, get over your hard on for Al Gore and stop obsessively posting childish insults.

[JoeEllison]

For ****'s sake, get over your hard on for Al Gore and stop obsessively posting childish insults.

On the other hand... this gives us an insight into a certain mentality. There has to be a reason for the obsessive insults directed at someone who seems to be pretty much right pretty much most of the time.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Did I make you cry?

It looks like Al Gore is eliciting a lot of wailing, moaning and gnashing of teeth from the Reactionaries. I'm glad to see the Right Wing hate machine can really kick it up a notch from attacking Iraq veterans and 12 year olds who used CHIP after car wrecks to calling Jimmy Carter an idiot who has done nothing since leaving office.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Just more name calling and nothing of substance.

I'm no more a "reactionary" than I am a "denier".

One more iteration of my real position, then have it out among yourselves misrepresenting it the same way over again:

The problem is what folks want to do about global warming. There is no logical connection with the science and your various programs.

Especially those who want the UN running whatever it is. That's part of the deal. That's why Al Gore shares the prize.


And another thing: NSFW but relevant (http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=325483#325483) :eek:

[Gurdur]

Just more name calling and nothing of substance.
A good description of your posts on the subject, yes.
The problem is what folks want to do about global warming. There is no logical connection with the science and your various programs.
Especially those who want the UN running whatever it is. That's part of the deal. That's why Al Gore shares the prize.
No, the problem is you simply won't make any intelligent argument at all. It's very boring. Why not change your habits and actually make one?

[Harpoon]

The largest utility in my state, Nevada, is operating an older, coal-fired power plant that is not in compliance with current emissions standards.

Two years ago it started the permiting process to build a more modern plant, which will have a much lower level of pollution. The state utility commission has required it to install carbon capture technology as soon as it's available.

But Sen. Harry Reid has vowed to block the plant because of AGW. The proposed plant will require a new transmission line. Several renewable energy companies (at least two wind farms and one solar) want to tap into the transmission line. But Reid is determined to stop the project, which will mean the older, more-polluting plant will continue to operate for years.

His less-than-scientific approach and heavy-handed intervention has seriously damaged the credibility of those of us citing AGW as the reason to begin replacing fossil fuels with renewables. Reid has a bill before the Senate that will require transmission lines on public lands to carry no more than 25% fossil fuel energy -- and, hypocritically, none from nuclear.

I'm very concerned about AGW, but much more worried about the ideologically driven political solutions.

Gore deserves praise for bringing AGW to the public's attention. But several of his claims are hyperbolic and require the public correction they have been receiving.

As an example, I also accept the premise that life on the planet is threatened by Near Earth Objects (NEOs). We must fund greater research into the detection of NEOs and how to protect ourselves from them. That would be good science. However, if a politician, or former politican, or filmmaker were to take that science and use it to generate fear; to call for more government regulation of industry and commerce to focus our resources on this NEO threat, I become skeptical -- not of the science involved, nor of the threat, but of the movement to give governments more central control.;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Just more name calling and nothing of substance.

I'm no more a "reactionary" than I am a "denier".

I hope, since we used to have fun together on the forum, that I can't do a search and find you calling people woo instead of just commenting on a position that has been demonstrably shown to be woo. And don't take being called names to heart here since I've been called a Christian Apologist just for not being a God-Hater.

One more iteration of my real position, then have it out among yourselves misrepresenting it the same way over again:

The problem is what folks want to do about global warming. There is no logical connection with the science and your various programs.

Especially those who want the UN running whatever it is. That's part of the deal. That's why Al Gore shares the prize.

Waaaaah! I don't want to have to give up my Kobe beef and driving solo in a Chevy Tahoe because some Polar Bears might go extinct or a bunch of people who live near the Equator might migrate... What? They live near the Equator and might migrate here?

Just keep on sitting alone in that Suburban at the drive through while you decide between the beef and bean or 7 layer... you never know when it will be the last meal of your life... style.

Economic considerations... short sighted dumb****s...

[TV's Frank]

Law of averages. :)

For every rule there are exceptions. There are just enough pain-in-the-asses like me around who keep those other stores in biz. Eventually - if you bark loud enough - they can become mainstream. In comes competition. Down go prices.

There's the other consideration: the "I'm too good for Wally-World" factor.

A buddy of mine and I were seriously considering starting a business at one point. There was no way we could really beat the name brands on any level except being 100% hand-made. What I realized later, after we had kind of given up, is that if you can't beat them on price, double or triple the price. If the average martini is $7, you'll never beat the competition by selling $9 martinis. On the other hand, if you give it a funny name and charge $22.50, people will pay a premium for the privilege of buying something too expensive for normal folks, even if it is actually no better than the cheaper thing.

OK, so what's stopping consumers from not purchasing products made from eco-unfriendly companies?

[ConspiRaider]

OK, so what's stopping consumers from not purchasing products made from eco-unfriendly companies?
Frank, maybe you want to rephrase? I think you set a record for a triple-negative in that statement. Are you saying:

Why don't consumers buy green products to the same degree they buy non-green products?

And I already answered that: Price. Currently, green products are significantly more expensive.

[TV's Frank]

Price.

Same reason people will buy crappy, overly processed food as compared to the healthy stuff.

Why do you think millions of us Americans waddled into Walmart and carted away all that lead-laden China-made crap on the shelves? Price, price, price. In the short term, people are always blinded by price. We're not trained to think long range - so we don't.

Law of averages. :)

For every rule there are exceptions. There are just enough pain-in-the-asses like me around who keep those other stores in biz. Eventually - if you bark loud enough - they can become mainstream. In comes competition. Down go prices.

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused by your narrative. You're complaining that people always choose Walmart for the low low prices. Fortunately, there's enough enlightened people to shop at other places, bring in competition, and...lower prices??

[TV's Frank]

Frank, maybe you want to rephrase? I think you set a record for a triple-negative in that statement. Are you saying:

Why don't consumers buy green products to the same degree they buy non-green products?

And I already answered that: Price. Currently, green products are significantly more expensive.

Sorry, I know that was awkwardly phrased! I know that consumers don't buy "green" products in the same degree as non-green products, and that price is a big factor. My original question was posed to Cleon, who claimed that the free market would not solve AGW, and only government intervention could.

However, as our discussion has shown, there are enough "enlightened" folks around to buy green products, keep them alive, and eventually make them mainstream. I feel that this is the free market at work: companies work to satisfy the consumer. If consumers demand green, they'll eventually get cheap green. I just don't see the need to bring in government intervention.

It's like your Walmart example: sure, Walmart is huge now, but enough people don't shop there to make competition thrive. This drives prices down and eventually everyone wins, and we didn't need the government to do it for us.

[Harpoon]

Walmart and its customers are well ahead of government action when it comes to renewable energy. There's too many references to cite, but here's one: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/1007biz-walmart1008.html

Google <<Walmart AND green AND energy>> and you'll see what I mean. Walmart is even putting pressure on its suppliers to adopt clean energy or it's adios.

But, don't worry. There'll still be plenty of justification for dumping on Walmart in other areas.;)

[Safe-Keeper]

I'll give you that. dudalb mentioned some of my concerns on Gore's tactics to gain support. By attacking Western capitalism as the culprit, and wanting to impose taxes on wealthy nations to "fight global warming" while allowing China, Russia, and India to pollute at an exponential rate, AND restricting development in Africa from developing it's own industry to pull themselves up out of poverty.They don't 'pollute at an exponential rate'. They've got many times the population of the US, so of course their total number of people is higher. The per capita emission of greenhouse gases, though, is nowhere near that of the States, as evidenced by research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_ capita) done by the Americans' own Environment Protection Agency.

China and India are both ratifying and abiding by several important environmentalist agreements. They've both ratified the Kyoto agreement. They're doing far, far more than the United States. It's futile to hide behind them.

The problem is what folks want to do about global warming. There is no logical connection with the science and your various programs.

Especially those who want the UN running whatever it is. That's part of the deal. That's why Al Gore shares the prize.So to get this straight, you don't buy AGW, which is backed by lots of evidence, but you're ready to buy into a Gore-IPCC-Nobel Peace Prize Committee conspiracy to bring down capitalism. With no evidence.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Waaaaah! I don't want to have to give up my Kobe beef and driving solo in a Chevy Tahoe ...

Guess what. I never did anything like that, and wouldn't even if I could afford it.

More lies and innuendo.

Carry on.

[Abdul Alhazred]

So to get this straight, you don't buy AGW, which is backed by lots of evidence, but you're ready to buy into a Gore-IPCC-Nobel Peace Prize Committee conspiracy to bring down capitalism. With no evidence.

Same old misrepresentation. Could it be that you (all) are really that dense about what my position is?

Looks like you (all) are blinded by faith.

[Abdul Alhazred]

There is no point in continuing the discussion because you (all) will not address my real position, but only the rich right wing strawman in your minds.

I should have put this thread in 'Religion'.

[Gurdur]

Same old misrepresentation. Could it be that you (all) are really that dense about what my position is?

Looks like you (all) are blinded by faith.

There is no point in continuing the discussion because you (all) will not address my real position, but only the rich right wing strawman in your minds.

I should have put this thread in 'Religion'.

*sigh*

If only, Abdul, if only you would actually discuss, instead of only trolling.

It's kind of sad to see you reduced to this. I liked you when you were doing your trains board; now it's only bitter whining and trolling, and nothing real, no person there, lights on but no-one at home.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

There is no point in continuing the discussion because you (all) will not address my real position, but only the rich right wing strawman in your minds.

I should have put this thread in 'Religion'.

The irony, it hurts...

[Dorian Gray]

Emphasis added.

Please don't do that again. I don't want to think of Gore being into Gor.The correct term is "Gwarian."

[Gurdur]

The correct term is "Gwarian."

But only social-climbing Brit snobs can pronounce that correctly.

[Safe-Keeper]

Same old misrepresentation. Could it be that you (all) are really that dense about what my position is?Your position is that global warming is real, you've not specified, that I've seen, whether you believe it's human-caused, and you believe the solutions are economically disastrous without presenting evidence for this statement or alternative solutions. Perhaps you've done so earlier, or in this thread without me noticing. I confess I've not read through it. It's not exactly very serious, and it doesn't have a clear topic. You have to admit that.

Looks like you (all) are blinded by faith.Looks like you're being overly vague.

I should have put this thread in 'Religion'.You can find similarities between environmentalists and the religious, so you call it a religion - even though AGW is totally unrelated to gods, spirits or life between deaths. Just like I can find similarities between a tricycle and a school bus and say the latter is a type of bike.

You do that.

Oh, and you claimed 'mis-interpretation' on an earlier post, this one:
Waaaaah! I don't want to have to give up my Kobe beef and driving solo in a Chevy Tahoe ...Which in return was in response to:
The problem is what folks want to do about global warming. There is no logical connection with the science and your various programs.Giving up SUVs and meat-eating are two anti-AGW measures proposed by environmentalists. In short, it's 'what people want to do about global warming'. He ridiculed this position, which was slightly immature of him, but you have to admit, it was on-topic and valid. Then you attack him for mis-representation.

There is no point in continuing the discussion [...]Which one of them? 'AGW is a religion', 'the Nobel peace prize committee is evil', 'there's a UN-IPCC-Gore conspiracy to destroy capitalism', 'anti-AGW measures will ruin us' or 'I am being mis-represented'?

I agree, though, this thread is pointless.

[UnrepentantSinner]

More lies and innuendo.

You've been around long enough to know that I invented the ironymeter. How dare you break mine.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Question: What is the logical connection between AGW (not disputed), and having the UN handle it?

You know -- the folks who put Sudan in charge of human rights and Zimbabwe in charge of sustainable development.