About the bible etc.....

[Ruby]

Hi everyone,

As you all know my belief in Christianity has rapidly waned. I have gone from fundamental Christian to liberal Christian to Unitarian.

Now I am slowly approaching agnoticism and atheism. I don't even know what to believe or how to classify myself.

I had been posting on a Christian forum lately...and even though there are some very nice and caring Christian people on there, it is more proof to me that Christiniaty is screwed up. More than ever before I see how scripture can be made to say whatever a person or church denomination wants it too. Each side says they have the right interpretation....sometimes hinting at the others possible punishment in hell.

Each church denomination claims God tells only them the truth. The UPCI say you must"repent" "be baptized in Jesus name" and "speak in tongues as proof of the holy spirit baptism. They can pull out their scriptures and make it look and sound convincing. They did that to me. I knew squat about the bible when I went to a 1st United Pentecostal church (UPC). They showed all the scriptures to back up their doctrine and I bought it hook, line and sinker.

Anyhow, some denominations teach baptism as needed to be saved, and some include works. There also those who say that only believing is what saves.

Although, I think the bible leans a bit more to the just believing concept, it's easy to see how the other concepts of salvation could be legitimate too.

Anyhow, the very idea that there are so many contradictions in scripture concerning salvation itself is just another reason for me to question the bible. It just seems impossible to me that it has any inspiration. A perfect God would not make so many mistakes and confusions.

I am now really looking more intently on facts and figures concerning the bible.

There are certain things that stump me. I can't find an answer for them.

One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why? Is there anything in it that really happened? What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible? Where did the Jews come from? Did they create their God?

I'll start another thread to ask other questions that I'm pondering too.

[Sundog]

Congratulations Ruby.

Your changed perceptions of what you thought you knew are inevitable. Once the doors of perception have been opened, you can never again pretend they're closed.

[Pahansiri]

I don't even know what to believe or how to classify myself.

Sure you do, as a kind and loving mother, wife, daughter, sister and friend. kind and loving and fillied with respect and compassion all else matters little.:p

That is "who/what" you are.

[roger]

Originally posted by Ruby
One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why?

Sorry, not really my area of expertise, but here are a few links.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html
http://atheism.about.com/cs/thebible/

[hgc]

Originally posted by Ruby
Hi everyone,

...

One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why? Is there anything in it that really happened? What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible? Where did the Jews come from? Did they create their God?

...Hi Ruby,

There are many, many books on this topic, but I can recommend one book in particular which I found to be very enlightening. It's The Book of J (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679736247/qid=1063053499/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8212174-5755968?v=glance&s=books), which discusses the person who may have been the original author (J) of what became the core of the first 5 books of the bible (Torah). It also provides a new translation for what is thought to be what remains of that author's words in that part of the bible.

In his commentary, Harold Bloom discusses whether the original intent was to create a work of history, religion, or what. His conclusion is that J wrote for the sake of literature. Bloom also contends that J was a woman. J is credited with "inventing" God, in the Judeo-Christian-Moslem sense.

[roger]

on the historical accuracy of the bible:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/2/982front.html

http://quinnell.us/religion/reasons/smithsonian.html

[Brown]

May I recommend reading The Age of Reason (http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html) by Thomas Paine. Paine deals at length with one of your main concerns, namely that "Each church denomination claims God tells only them the truth."

Paine doubts all claims that God has has revealed Himself in human-written scriptures.

He makes a good case that a true religion ought never to rely (as many branches of Christianity do) on mystery, miracle and prophesy.

He levels many criticisms at Christianity in particular (but not all forms of Christianity). Some of his criticisms are not very strong, but some are dead on. His discussions of the significance of the death of Jesus are very thought provoking.

In Part I and especially Part II, he addresses various contradictions and anachronisms in the Bible.

Some of Paine's writing is tedious, especially when he starts discussing mathematics. Some of his sentences run on way too long. But most of The Age of Reason is quite interesting.

[Skeptical Greg]

There is a lot of discussion and some good reference links in this current discussion..

NT versus reality (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26440)

It's surprising, once you start looking for answers, just how few facts, the believers have on their side.


As long as you ' believe ', you can be dismissed with " it is beyond our understanding "..

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Sundog
Congratulations Ruby.

Your changed perceptions of what you thought you knew are inevitable. Once the doors of perception have been opened, you can never again pretend they're closed.

I feel a certain sense of freedom that I never had before! I was truly empty, frustrated, and confused as a Christian!!!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


Sure you do, as a kind and loving mother, wife, daughter, sister and friend. kind and loving and fillied with respect and compassion all else matters little.:p

That is "who/what" you are.

That is so sweet of you!!!

Thank you!!!!:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by roger


Sorry, not really my area of expertise, but here are a few links.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html
http://atheism.about.com/cs/thebible/

Thanks:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by hgc
Hi Ruby,

There are many, many books on this topic, but I can recommend one book in particular which I found to be very enlightening. It's The Book of J (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679736247/qid=1063053499/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8212174-5755968?v=glance&s=books), which discusses the person who may have been the original author (J) of what became the core of the first 5 books of the bible (Torah). It also provides a new translation for what is thought to be what remains of that author's words in that part of the bible.

In his commentary, Harold Bloom discusses whether the original intent was to create a work of history, religion, or what. His conclusion is that J wrote for the sake of literature. Bloom also contends that J was a woman. J is credited with "inventing" God, in the Judeo-Christian-Moslem sense.

Thanks. I've got it bookmarked. :cool:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Brown
May I recommend reading The Age of Reason (http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html) by Thomas Paine. Paine deals at length with one of your main concerns, namely that "Each church denomination claims God tells only them the truth."

Paine doubts all claims that God has has revealed Himself in human-written scriptures.

He makes a good case that a true religion ought never to rely (as many branches of Christianity do) on mystery, miracle and prophesy.

He levels many criticisms at Christianity in particular (but not all forms of Christianity). Some of his criticisms are not very strong, but some are dead on. His discussions of the significance of the death of Jesus are very thought provoking.

In Part I and especially Part II, he addresses various contradictions and anachronisms in the Bible.

Some of Paine's writing is tedious, especially when he starts discussing mathematics. Some of his sentences run on way too long. But most of The Age of Reason is quite interesting.

Great. Sounds right up my alley!:)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Ruby
Now I am slowly approaching agnoticism and atheism. I don't even know what to believe or how to classify myself.
Hey, who says you need an official title.

From Exodus 3:14, Moses had a conversation with Yahweh about that whole free all the people from Pharoah, he said "When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?".

Here's where you can use the vagueness of the bible to your advantage:
When Moses asked Yahweh his name, Yahweh responded with "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" (you may have noticed my user status says "Ayay ashay ayay", thats just faulty transliteration, its the same thing). Roughly translated, it means "I am WHAT I am".

When someone asks what religion you are, you can say unto them "I am what I am".

(Casual note: The phrase "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" can also be translated to mean any of the following "I am WHAT/THAT/WHO I am".

Casual note #2: The name "Yahweh" roughly translates into "God of Armies"... COOL!)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Diogenes
There is a lot of discussion and some good reference links in this current discussion..

NT versus reality (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26440)

It's surprising, once you start looking for answers, just how few facts, the believers have on their side.


As long as you ' believe ', you can be dismissed with " it is beyond our understanding "..

LOL. God does go from being "revealed to us by his word" to being "mysterious and far above our comprehension". It's hilarious.....but also very sad.

Thanks for pointing out the thread. :)

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Yahweh


When someone asks what religion you are, you can say unto them "I am what I am".


HEG, eg eg eg eg eg eg eg .....

Why do I suddenly have a craving for spinach?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Hey, who says you need an official title.

From Exodus 3:14, Moses had a conversation with Yahweh about that whole free all the people from Pharoah, he said "When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?".

Here's where you can use the vagueness of the bible to your advantage:
When Moses asked Yahweh his name, Yahweh responded with "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" (you may have noticed my user status says "Ayay ashay ayay", thats just faulty transliteration, its the same thing). Roughly translated, it means "I am WHAT I am".

When someone asks what religion you are, you can say unto them "I am what I am".

(Casual note: The phrase "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" can also be translated to mean any of the following "I am WHAT/THAT/WHO I am".

Casual note #2: The name "Yahweh" roughly translates into "God of Armies"... COOL!)

Yeah, I am what I am!!! lol!!!:D

[luvtinayothers]

Originally posted by Ruby


I feel a certain sense of freedom that I never had before! I was truly empty, frustrated, and confused as a Christian!!!!

I understand that feeling of freedom! I was raised a Christian and believed most
of my life. About four years ago I slowly changed to a full blown athiest. I feel
so free! No more of those nagging doubts at the back of my mind
that I'd have to force down.
I hated that feeling of always being confused and feeling guilty for doubting even
a little bit. I just tried to ignore the evidence. When I finally stopped trying to
hide my doubts and just accepted the truth.....it felt so good.
The only problem is that the rest of my family (parents, brothers, sisters, brothers
and sisters in law, aunts uncles, grandparents-everybody!) are still believers.
There's no way that I can admit that I'm no longer a Christian but an athiest.
I feel like a gay person who has finally accepted the truth about himself can't
come out of the closet for fear of what his family will think.
At least I feel the way I imagine a gay person would feel. Oh, well.

[calladus]

Atheism gives a wonderful sense of freedom, and for me it removes a slight paranoia.

As a Christian I had to always be concerned that God was a supernatural peeping tom, looking into my guarded thoughts.

Now I realize that is bullflop. What I think is private. This is a wonderful feel of freedom to me - the ability to let my own morals be my conscious, instead of censoring myself for an invisible ghost.

I still correct the thoughts that I think are immoral, because it's my belief that bad thoughts lead to bad habits - but I no longer worry that my momentary lapses will lead me straight to hell - which is comforting when some idiot on the road cuts me off!

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ruby
One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why?

There were several people who had a hand in the OT. First a quick history lesson:

There was Israel (10 tribes) and there was Judah (2 tribes). They didn't particularly like each other even though they were related by ethnicity. Israel was richer and Judah was the one-eyebrowed poor cousin living in the hills. They both were very small insignificant countries. (You would think they were powerful and influential according to the bible) In 750 BC (or so) Assyria attacked Israel and took over. They assimilated the population. These became the 10 lost tribes. Many of the people fled south to Judah and brought their religious stories with them.

In 550 BC (or so), Babylon took Judah. They, too, were assimilated into the babylonian society for 70 (or so) years. Around this time, someone (probably a priest) began collecting all the works available and started smashing them together. This author is known as "P" (for priestly) He wrote the very beginning of the bible "In the beginning...blah, blah, blah". This story borrows heavily from the Babylonian Creation Myth - which is understandable. So he developed a creation story for the Jews. But there was another creation story brought down from Israel. The Adam and Eve creation story was written by "J" - the Jahwist. "P" very inelegantly tacked the "J" story on the end of his! You can see the division at Genesis 2:4 - where the comma is. (Of course there wasn't a comma in the Hebrew) In this creation story the order of creations is different than the first one AND God is called a different name! Also if you look at the style of writing - there is a drastic change. The Priest is rigid; the Jahwist is storytime. He did the same thing with the Noah story.

This is getting long, so I will say there is also an "E" (Elohist) and a "D" Deuterotomist. It is "D" who may be the most influential of the writers. Experts can spot "D" noodling around all over.

Is there anything in it that really happened?

This is my opinion based on my studying, lo, these 12 years.

Adam and Eve is ridiculous of course.

Cain and Abel is an adaption of a very old story telling the tale of the disputes between nomads (who moved livestock over land for a living) and farmers (who settled down). Notice how Cain is the 'inventor' of many occupations. You probably always wondered why Cain brought grain to give to the Lord and Abel brought meat. The Lord was pleased with Abel. The Lord loves Barbeque. Which makes me think the story was written by a nomad.

Noah is scientifically impossible. It's just ridiculous to believe it. (Especially since it is a copy of a Sumarian Tale - Epic of Gilgamesh)

Some extremely bias pseudo-history is sprinkled around, but a lot of it is country-pride, trash-talkin.

What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible?

Rabbits do not chew their cud.

Where did the Jews come from?

The most recent archeology is showing Canaan was settled very peacefully by nomadic people. No big wars with honkin trumpets and suns standing still (another thing scientifically impossible).

Did they create their God?

The entire area was henotheistic. This means every land/people had their own gods. And everyone knew this. When you entered another land there was an alter there whereby you would pay respects to the god in whose land you would be travelling. Some lands had a few gods, the Jews just had El Shaddai - I believe he was an old war god. Nevertheless, "You shall have no other gods before me." simply means - Yes there are other gods, but I'm the only one you should worship.

Sorry if I got any dates wrong, I whipped this out off the top of my head - after work - overtime no less.

A good book to start out with is On the Bible, Religion, and Morality by Steve Allen (Yes that Steve Allen)

A must read is Asimov's Guide to the Bible.

Good luck!

[athon]

I might pick up where triadboy left off.

The Bible, as in the modern Christian canon, was first collated in about 350 A.D. following a summit where leaders of various early Christian groups got together in Nicaea. This council discussed various things (such as whether Christ was God incarnate, or, as the Arian heresy and later the Nestorian cults believed, was just a man). But ultimately it felt that Christian dogma should be based on a scripture much as the Jewish Torah was. Documents were collected together from the Torah, as well as other bits and pieces related to the history of Judaism and the new history following Christ.

Scriptures that were thought to be too Jewish or did not fit the picture were left aside, and are today called the Apocrypha (a great read if anybody likes reading the bible as a historical document).

This canon was written in Greek and was spread through the world, modified on rare occasions to suit particular cultures. Saint Athanasius was responsible in part for its distribution (of whose name my handle is an abbreviation of).

Athon

[Marc]

Hey Ruby,

A book I found very informative on the subject is The Secret Origins of the Bible (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965504794/qid=1063106543/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7058764-9735810?v=glance&s=books). It starts off with how the early OT is an amalgam of various mythologies common to the middle east. How Eve was originally a goddess, Yahweh was just one god of a Cannite pantheon, Asheira his consort. The Jews most likely a loose coalition of tribes in the hills.

Even the NT has clear origins in other mythologies. Maybe the authors of the bible should be charged with plagerism. ;)

[LW]

Originally posted by Marc
How Eve was originally a goddess

Born out of creator-god Enki's rib (I hope I don't confuse the similarily-named Sumerian gods). Her name is a pun in Sumerian, being close to both "rib" and "world", IIRC. I've read a claim that this pun doesn't exist in Hebrew, but as Herbrew is pure Hebrew for me, I can't say this for certain.

[whitefork]

In fact, the EHYEH in "ehyeh asher ehyeh" is an imperfect (Hebrew verb tense with the sense of incompleted action) of the root HAYAH ("It was").

So, the meaning is perhaps more accurately rendered as "I will be what I will be". (cue Doris Day) - QUE SERA SERA!

So, Ruby, you may yet find out what you are - but maybe not right away. The seeking is all - the finding may never happen.

Be well.

[Zep]

Originally posted by athon Scriptures that were thought to be too Jewish or did not fit the picture were left aside, and are today called the Apocrypha (a great read if anybody likes reading the bible as a historical document).Just to fill this point out a bit more.

There were also some accounts of historical incidents that supposedly pertain to "Jesus" and also his family. However they did not fit the intended "political spin" of the council (or, at least, the editors) in any way. In fact, they clearly contradicted the required spin, and would have even had a damaging effect (an ancient smoking gun). These were actually discarded from selection entirely - they were not in the official scriptures and not in the Apocrypha either.

Subjects to study for a start:

Magdalen papyrus
Cairo Codex
Qumran
Nicine Conference

Go from there!

[Ossai]

Ruby

Another good read is Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God (recommended by another posted on another board, I'm still reading it).

Now a very short description.

The council of Nivecca (sp?) was what ultimately decided that Jesus was god. Prior to it there were two major sects. The first was the 'Jesus Movement' which believed and promoted that Jesus was a learned man, possibly divinely inspired but in no way was he god. The second major movement was Paul of Tarsus's Hellenistic Christ cult. Paul's cult hijacked the Jesus legends and used them to overlay a basic Hellenistic cult concerned with salvation and afterlife. There are quiet a few sites discussing Hellenistic cults and a google will bring up a few interesting ones (look for .edu sites for some of the best information).

Ossai

{edited for oddity}

[Skeptical Greg]

Found another interesting site..


EarlyChristianWritings.com (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/)

[ceo_esq]

Ruby,

You might find interesting a book called Who Wrote the Bible? (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0060630353&itm=1) by Richard Friedman.

ceo_esq

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by triadboy

What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible?

Rabbits do not chew their cud.


My favorite is the one that claims bats are a type of bird. (From Leviticus chapter 11.) They aren't, they're a mammal.

Originally posted by triadboy
A must read is Asimov's Guide to the Bible.


Another good resource:

The Skeptics Annotated Bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (contains the text of the bible, cross referenced with various contraditions, scientific impossibilities, and support for 'bad' human activities

[Brown]

Originally posted by triadboy
A must read is Asimov's Guide to the Bible.Let me echo this as well. Asimov's Guide was very interesting, and I learned a great deal from this book.

Asimov speaks very favorably of many parts of the Bible. His book is not a criticism that tries to tear the Bible apart. Some of his analysis, however, shows that parts of the Bible are not reliable historically or scientifically. He also points out some fascinating inconsistencies and literary devices that fundamentalists ignore. (The book of Daniel, for example, was a contemporary criticism, but it was set 300 years earlier. As a result, Daniel contains dozens of historical errors and anachronisms.)

One of Asimov's interesting speculations is that Judas Iscariot was really known as "Judas Sicariot," which means "Judas the Terrorist."

In my judgment, the most interesting commentary had to do with why Paul stopped calling himself "Saul" and started calling himself "Paul."

[mummymonkey]

There is an interview with Asimov here. (http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/asimov2.htm)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by luvtinayothers


I understand that feeling of freedom! I was raised a Christian and believed most
of my life. About four years ago I slowly changed to a full blown athiest. I feel
so free! No more of those nagging doubts at the back of my mind
that I'd have to force down.
I hated that feeling of always being confused and feeling guilty for doubting even
a little bit. I just tried to ignore the evidence. When I finally stopped trying to
hide my doubts and just accepted the truth.....it felt so good.
The only problem is that the rest of my family (parents, brothers, sisters, brothers
and sisters in law, aunts uncles, grandparents-everybody!) are still believers.
There's no way that I can admit that I'm no longer a Christian but an athiest.
I feel like a gay person who has finally accepted the truth about himself can't
come out of the closet for fear of what his family will think.
At least I feel the way I imagine a gay person would feel. Oh, well.

My hubby is facing this same dilemna with his family. From his mother to his brothers to his aunts and uncles, they are all devout Christians. My hubby was raised in a very religious atmosphere. Actually, he grew up in isolated cult community. Thankfully, all his family got out of there a long time ago.

Anyhow, we are planning to visit my hubby's family in December. My hubby is already composing a letter to his mom to explain how we have left Christianity behind us. It truly is like "coming out of the closet".

Most of my old church friends don't have a clue about how my beliefs have changed. They would be shocked and worried.

My mom is a very liberal (non-church attending) Christian so it won't matter to her how I feel about religion.

I am worried about my hubby's mom will say. She is a kind lady...but a very devout believer. She is the type who goes around quoting scriptures at you for every litttle thing you say and talks all the time about "doing God's will". Even before my hubby and I came to this point of pulling out of Christianity, we would get annoyed at his mom for quoting scriptures at us over any problem or issue we talked to her about as if that scripture would make it all ok. We had already discovered that the scripture had no power or meaning. We just did not know why....til now!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by calladus
Atheism gives a wonderful sense of freedom, and for me it removes a slight paranoia.

Yes, ditto for me on that too!!

As a Christian I had to always be concerned that God was a supernatural peeping tom, looking into my guarded thoughts.

Now I realize that is bullflop. What I think is private. This is a wonderful feel of freedom to me - the ability to let my own morals be my conscious, instead of censoring myself for an invisible ghost.

I still correct the thoughts that I think are immoral, because it's my belief that bad thoughts lead to bad habits - but I no longer worry that my momentary lapses will lead me straight to hell - which is comforting when some idiot on the road cuts me off! [/B]

To me, it's wonderful to be moral on my own account.....not due to being a "Christian" and trying to be "Christlike" to keep up with other Christians and the standards they set, but because I want to for myself.

Plus, I can really take credit for accomplisments and talents. As a Christian, everything had to be attributed to God. If you got a new car it was "Oh praise God for the new car he enabled us to get" or if you conquered a fear.....such as I overcame my fear of driving......I had to say "Praise God he helped me to drive again". Then there's "Thank you Jesus for the bonus I got today at work" or "Thank you Lord for that promotion".

You know what, my hubby works his butt off as an engineer, and he has received promotions for this and has an upcoming big promotion in the works. God did not do this....Jesus was not there doing it......it was my hubby working hard and being persistant.

It was myself who talked myself into driving again. It was ME who talked myself through every anxiety attack while driving.

I could go on and on.

This has been one of the best and biggest revelations concerning leaving Christianity behind. I have the power to make or break.....not God. It's been me all along...even when I thought it was God...it was me!!!!! :clap:

[Ruby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by triadboy
[B][QUOTE]

Thanks for your very informative post.:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by athon
I might pick up where triadboy left off.

The Bible, as in the modern Christian canon, was first collated in about 350 A.D. following a summit where leaders of various early Christian groups got together in Nicaea. This council discussed various things (such as whether Christ was God incarnate, or, as the Arian heresy and later the Nestorian cults believed, was just a man). But ultimately it felt that Christian dogma should be based on a scripture much as the Jewish Torah was. Documents were collected together from the Torah, as well as other bits and pieces related to the history of Judaism and the new history following Christ.

Scriptures that were thought to be too Jewish or did not fit the picture were left aside, and are today called the Apocrypha (a great read if anybody likes reading the bible as a historical document).

This canon was written in Greek and was spread through the world, modified on rare occasions to suit particular cultures. Saint Athanasius was responsible in part for its distribution (of whose name my handle is an abbreviation of).

Athon

Good info!! Thanks!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Marc
Hey Ruby,

A book I found very informative on the subject is The Secret Origins of the Bible (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965504794/qid=1063106543/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7058764-9735810?v=glance&s=books). It starts off with how the early OT is an amalgam of various mythologies common to the middle east. How Eve was originally a goddess, Yahweh was just one god of a Cannite pantheon, Asheira his consort. The Jews most likely a loose coalition of tribes in the hills.

Even the NT has clear origins in other mythologies. Maybe the authors of the bible should be charged with plagerism. ;)

Oh, that sounds very interesting! Must read that book!!:book:

[ShottleBop]

Check out The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible, by Robin Lane Fox. It is very readable, and does a good job of separating out those parts of the Bible that can be corroborated by independent evidence and those that can't.

. . . and I second the suggestion that you read Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible.

[Flaherty]

Originally posted by Ruby
One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why? Is there anything in it that really happened? What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible? Where did the Jews come from? Did they create their God?

An excellent, scholarly, and very readable book on this topic is "The Unauthorized Version (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679744061/qid=1063129915/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-6987605-4498528?v=glance&s=books): Truth and Fiction in the Bible," 1991, by Robin Lane Fox, a professor of Ancient History at New College, Oxford.

[triadboy]

Ruby,

Check out Dan Barker. He was a minister, who became an atheist once he started seriously delving into the scriptures. He's the one who has the $1000 Easter Challenge to anyone who can explain what happened in the days of the resurrection - and remain consistent with the other Gospels. (Of course, it can't be done)

Another book I love is - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read. It has a red cover and is a compilation of short essays and factoids. Very enjoyable read.

[athon]

Personally, this is what I find so amusing - surrounded by atheists, and you've got more information here in this one post than many groups of Christians could have provided. And we are supposed to be 'ignorant'? I think if anything we're damn well informed (emhpasise the damn! :) )

Ruby makes some very interesting points. Many theistic beliefs attribute successes to their Gods (and often their failures). Often to their detriment. My step-father quit his job earlier this year, stating that he hated it. Fine, but he quit without finding another job to go into first. Result - two months no employment, with my mother supporting him.

His claim?

God will provide. He certainly did! With a saint like my mother, who resisted kicking his a*se! Man that infuriated me...

Athon

[homunculus]

You could try The Jesus Mysteries, by Freke & Gandy. Or better still, anything by Earl Doherty.

Try http://www.jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk/home.html for reviews and information about the Freke & Gandy book.

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html is Doherty's site, which contains lots of links.

There are a number of scholars (Earl Doherty. a writer for the Journal of Higher Criticism, being among the most respected) who are convinced that Jesus may never have existed at all, and that the New Testament is simply a Jewish sectarian re-working of ancient Pagan myths, and that Christian symbology, rituals, holy days, and even its papacy is Pagan in origin.

Check out the deity hung on a cross, on that first site. Look familiar?

It ain't Jesus...

Paul.

[Zep]

Hi Ruby,

Two parts to this. First, some interesting book references.

Telling Lies For God - Reason vs Creationism, Iam Plimer, Random House, 1994.
The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception, Baigent and Leigh, Corgi, 1991.

Both describe how information is controlled and distorted by various religious interests to their own ends.

Second, regarding your mum-in-law (MIL), I would suggest it might be better not to actively reveal your change in faith to her particularly. There would be no gain and much pain if that were "announced at" her directly. Instead, I suggest just smiling, saying "yes", nodding along, etc. I agree this could be construed as a form of dishonesty if you pretended to agree with her all the time, but for your own sanity you might try more non-committal responses instead - "That's a good thought, dear," "I'll bear that in mind," and so on. I would imagine she is pretty much set in her ways now to be confronted with such revelations...

Of course, if she does catch on and want to talk about it, be gentle with your honesty!

[Marc]

That's kind of what I did. I was never religious to begin with and almost never talked about it anyway. When first started with skeptics my mom asked me about my religious beliefs and had honestly said there was no change.. at least not yet.

Went to a skeptic's group meeting where Shermer was going to talk, that unfortunatly was scheduled for Mother's day. Got home to the family gathered, one sister asked aloud if I still believed in god, and I said no.

Mom is very religious, but feels I am old enough to make my own decisions. She did cut out some newspaper article on finding faith for me once though.

[Ruby]

Thank you everyone!!!

[elliotfc]

Hi Ruby.

Originally posted by Ruby
One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why? Is there anything in it that really happened? What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible? Where did the Jews come from? Did they create their God?

I'll start another thread to ask other questions that I'm pondering too.

I'll try to give my opinions to your questions. The Bible was written by an incredible variety of authors, inspired by God, for the reason of explaining the relationship between God and a people that would develop and evolve and culminate in the incarnation of Jesus.

Of course even the most hardened skeptic might admit that one or two things in the Bible actually happened. I am very impressed by the earliest Christian martyrs who died for things they claimed to have seen and experienced in the material world. There are books that have been written about this on both sides.

The Bible is not a science book, or a geology book, so it will be in opposition or contradiction to such fields often.

The Jews had a remarkably different notion of God then their contemporaries. Lots of books about this, e-mail me if you're interested in certain titles.

Ruby you're in my prayers. The only detail for a Christian that matters, in the end, is that humanity is in a bad state and that God loved humanity so much that he became a human himself. His sacrifice is eternal and available to every human, a perfect sacrifice to connect us with God, a necessary sacrifice because we as humans can not save ourselves. Our fallen natures lead us to sin and there is much in the world to tempt and deceive, but all who approach God with a sincere and open heart (with no strings attached) will be answered and assisted in ways they could not have expected. We are all works of art, created in God's image, and God could not forget any of us for any reason. The situation on Earth is bleak and temporary and redeemable, and the knowledge that the Redeemer lives is consolation and empowerment. The questions are good and the quest for truth is vital, yet as Augustine said, understanding is the reward of faith. Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. As long as your heart longs for truth and beauty and love you'll be fine. Every human's path to God is unique and troubled due to our nature, but God is understanding and as he died for us out of Love so will he accompany us on our life journey, ready to sustain our spirits if our will would only allow it.

-Elliot

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ruby
Hi everyone,

As you all know my belief in Christianity has rapidly waned. I have gone from fundamental Christian to liberal Christian to Unitarian.

Now I am slowly approaching agnoticism and atheism. I don't even know what to believe or how to classify myself.


One of my biggest questions, is who wrote the bible and why? Is there anything in it that really happened? What are the things that geologist and scientists have discovered that disprove certain things in the bible? Where did the Jews come from? Did they create their God?

I'll start another thread to ask other questions that I'm pondering too.

All good questions, not all of which have answers. I have just started reading "demon haunted world" by Carl Sagan, because it was recommended here, and recommend it highly. He is not at all a bitter person, but is intelligent and humane. It contains a lot to do with our need to get to grips with the world and how we work in it, and why we come up with things like the Bible and Christianity.

Curiously enough, some of the best criticisms of the bible have already been invesitgated by Christians themselves. When you study it as a document, there are many questions raised by it.

Personally, I put the gospel down as the most brilliant piece of propaganda in history. It was at first meant to give the Jews a political and religious unity, which it did very well. Then it was changed to do the same for christians.

[Marc]

Originally posted by elliotfc

Of course even the most hardened skeptic might admit that one or two things in the Bible actually happened.
Of course some of the things in them happened. It is hard to write about a god and it's impact on the people you are trying to convince to worship it if you do not write about anything that connects with them. The real events in it would mostly be attributing good things to god and trying to explain why he allowed the bad things to happen. Now the miracles and prophecies, those are all made up/misrepresented.



I am very impressed by the earliest Christian martyrs who died for things they claimed to have seen and experienced in the material world. There are books that have been written about this on both sides.

I'm not impressed. Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, People's Temple, 9/11 hijackers, these are all people who have died for things they believed, perhaps even think they've seen. Dying for a cause does not mean the cause was worth it or even real.