Cheif Palmer's Report Further Debunked

[NYCEMT86]

Part of my paper, figured you guys might like this.


"Chief Palmer reports on the 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones, we've got isolated pockets of fire, we're gonna need at least two hand lines up there"


As most you know that the bulk of the fire was above the 78th floor and I won't get into much detail about that, Rather I am going to get into the stand pipe operations and why only two hand lines would have been needed to knock down the fire the 78th floor.


Most conspiracy theorists think two lines sounds like a small amount and therefore the fire was small right? Well not necessarily, two 2 1/2 inch hoses with 1 1/8th inch smooth bore nozzles can deliver more water at greater pressure than compared to the 1 1/2 inch unlined hoses that would have been stored on site, which anybody in the fire services knows, is usually crap since they don't meet the same requirements as hoses used by the fire department. As basic SOP during a high rise, they would have opened the gravity tanks located above them and turned on the fire pumps (which most likely would have been automatic) in addition to hooking two engines into an exterior outlet to add more pressure in the pipe, 650 psi to be exact. The nozzle pressure would have been reduced to 80-70 psi either by a PRD (Pressure Regulating Device) or at the stand pipe valve. Also the second line would have been hooked up at least two floors below the first line as not to interfere with residual pressure. So what does this all mean? Well if the stand pipe systems were still intact and operational they would have been able to deliver over 338 GPM (Gallons per minute)

GPM = (29.7)(d)^2(NP)

GPM = Gallons Per Minute
29.7 = Constant
d = Diameter in inches
NP = Nozzle Pressure

(29.7)(1.125)^2(80)(Use 81 for Square Root Purposes)
(29.7)(1.265)(9)
(37.5705, Rounded down to 37.57)(9)

GPM = 338


and at a weight of 8.33 pounds per gallon you are talking about over a ton of water with just one line alone. Now if you double that you are looking at over 2.5 tons of water.


Please if you have anything to add or correct go ahead

[Gravy]

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

[Bell]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

[BenBurch]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.

[CurtC]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?

[JimBenArm]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?
43 psi per 100 feet is the pressure conversion we used in subs. So that would be 347 psi.
Don't know what kind of pressure a fire hose could handle, but that seems like a lot for one. But that's just a "feeling" and has no basis in reality, so could be wrong.
As for the pumping question, there are pumps in existance that can pump against that kind of head, but don't know if that's what they used, or if there was a booster pump arrangement.

[BenBurch]

I believe they planned to carry pumps up the stairwell as well.

[BenBurch]

See here; Backpack pumps; http://www.maesco.com/products/hale/hale.html

[jaydeehess]

In forest fire fighting one often has lines strung out along the earth and up hills. The pumps used are not as powerful as those used by municipal fire depts though. The trick used in forest fires is to have a plastic lined tub part way up the hill that is filled by the first pump and line and which then has another pump taking water out of it and sending it up higher. Forest fire lines are smaller than municipal dept lines and are unlined so as to allow them to 'sweat'. This keeps the outside of the line wet and resistant to any hot area it may get dragged accross.

However at an elevation of 800 feet I would think that in a forest situtaion, they'd call in water bombers.

[Hamradioguy]

Hand lines generally are either 1 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch, although big city departments in particular generally use 2 1/2 lines for anything but really small fires. (Those lines need a LOT of available water and manpower to handle.) I don't know what FDNY uses for nozzles. The flow for a straight tip is about right. Fog nozzles generally flow 250 GPM for a 2 1/2 inch line. Either way that's a LOT of water (Brunacini's rule: "Little fire, little water. Big fire, big water." )

Fire hoses used to be rated for 400 psi but I believe all hoses these days are 600 psi rated-or more. That's a lot of pressure for the average fire engine to produce even with a good hydrant and first rate pump. My experience is with rural firefighting and engine pressures generally aren't more than 200-250 psi. at the pump.

Thanks to gravity you need a half pound of pressure to lift water one foot. 800 feet= 400 psi. That's just to get water there. 100psi for a fog nozzle? Add that. Oh and friction loss in the hose has to be overcome too- it varies depending on how much water you want to flow. It's why high rise buildings have there own system of fire pumps and gravity tanks. When that system is compromised you don't easily get water to upper floors. Pumping from a fire truck at street level is not a practical option (Other than charging the buildings internal standpipe system...IF it's functioning.

Bottom line: If Chief Palmer called for two hand lines he wasn't thinking just wastebasket fire. Two lines equals a LOT of fire. And remember, this was below the floors where there was major fire involvement.

[Alferd_Packer]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

[NYCEMT86]

Hand lines generally are either 1 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch, although big city departments in particular generally use 2 1/2 lines for anything but really small fires. (Those lines need a LOT of available water and manpower to handle.) I don't know what FDNY uses for nozzles. The flow for a straight tip is about right. Fog nozzles generally flow 250 GPM for a 2 1/2 inch line. Either way that's a LOT of water (Brunacini's rule: "Little fire, little water. Big fire, big water." )

The FDNY uses 1 1/8th smooth bore tips either with or without a pistol grip and an on/off handle. Also they use strictly 2 1/2 or 3 inch lines for both supply and attack, if you ever look at the back of their hose bed they don't have any preconnects or cross lays.



Fire hoses used to be rated for 400 psi but I believe all hoses these days are 600 psi rated-or more. That's a lot of pressure for the average fire engine to produce even with a good hydrant and first rate pump. My experience is with rural firefighting and engine pressures generally aren't more than 200-250 psi. at the pump.

I am not sure what they are rated for now. Now thats 200-250 going into an attached attack line correct? Depending on the type of pump you can get the pressure up there without any problems, most pump panels are computerized but I am not sure if they were during 9/11 even though they could have been available.


Thanks to gravity you need a half pound of pressure to lift water one foot. 800 feet= 400 psi. That's just to get water there. 100psi for a fog nozzle? Add that. Oh and friction loss in the hose has to be overcome too- it varies depending on how much water you want to flow. It's why high rise buildings have there own system of fire pumps and gravity tanks. When that system is compromised you don't easily get water to upper floors. Pumping from a fire truck at street level is not a practical option (Other than charging the buildings internal standpipe system...IF it's functioning.

As we all saw at the Deutsche Bank fire when the system is compromised its results in death. They usually do dual operations depending on the gpm of the truck, two 1500 gpm engines or a single 2000 gpm engine, but I am sure if they had to do it, they could pump up to the top.


Bottom line: If Chief Palmer called for two hand lines he wasn't thinking just wastebasket fire. Two lines equals a LOT of fire. And remember, this was below the floors where there was major fire involvement.

That is exactly what I was getting at. I couldn't have said it better.

[BenBurch]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

I recall reading, but cannot source where, that the standpipe system was shot from the impact. I'll see if I can find that.

[NYCEMT86]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Yes


Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

Well thats a tough call, IIRC, The stand pipes in the WTC were separated into 3 zones so it is possible that they would have had a working system somewhere in the building, most likely could have been on the 76th floor where the supply tank is or below, where the system could be pressurized without losing water or pressure. It is possible to still use a system that is severed, but its going to be harder to maintain a pressure.

[NYCEMT86]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

Each stand pipe zone had their own fire pump to deliver pressure along the way. An outside truck or trucks hooked into the stand pipe on street level would have been used to add more pressure.


800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?

They would have reduced the pressure either by a pressure reducing device or at the on/off wheel at the stand pipe so they could maneuver the hose. 560 psi is way too much and it would just be useless to pump that much water out if you can't even move it.

[Bell]

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.

Un-be-liev-a-ble!

It all seems so futile now :(

[NYCEMT86]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

Yes it is purely hypothetical, but by following their SOPs this is exactly what would have happened if they were able to fight the fire and had a working water supply.

[leftysergeant]

As I recall, that floor was described as a "sky lobby," suggesting that, since it was not office space, the load of class A fuels would be less than on the floors above. Thus, whatever the extent of the fires there, it would not serve as evidence that the majority of the fires had burnt out on the higher floors as well.

As for the ability of the hoses to withstand the pressures required without some sort of booster pumps, we also have to take into consideration friction loss, the reduction of pressure due to turbulence in the hoses. This requires a great increase in pressure just to maintian pressure over that distance. Add to this the resistance of gravity, and we are talking about tremendous pressures at the pump and the first few lengths of hose.

[DGM]

The FDNY uses 1 1/8th smooth bore tips either with or without a pistol grip and an on/off handle. Also they use strictly 2 1/2 or 3 inch lines for both supply and attack, if you ever look at the back of their hose bed they don't have any preconnects or cross lays.

I love learning about all this stuff! Would you mind a little clarification on this (bold)? Thanks in advance.:D

[NYCEMT86]

Pre-Connect and Cross lays are same thing, the only difference a Pre-connect is usually a quick attack line that is stored in the hose bed along with the supply line and addition lines. Cross lays go across, usually above or next to the pump panel, as they are closer to the cab they are usually grabbed first. One line will go out of the left side of the truck while the other line goes out the right side. They are usually 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch lines with a nozzle already connected. For the pre connects they can be 1 1/2 up to 3 inch attack lines with a nozzle already attached. Before Cross lays they use to what is called booster lines which acts as the same thing as a cross lay but it was like 1 inch line a reel, it looked like your typical garden hose.


To better show you what I am talking about...here are some pictures


Cross lay
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1817147153f14c1242.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8806)

Pre connect
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1817147153fce7d511.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8807)


ETA:

The FDNY engines also have a pre-connect in the front bumper, which is used as a supply line that hooks directly into a hydrant, they also have shorter hose beds compared to the standard hose beds used around the United States. I think ever second or third row is a length of 50 or 100 foot line which will represent 1 floor...so if they arrive at a 6 story tenement building with fire on the top floor they will know off the bat to grab 6 lengths worth rather than guessing.

[DGM]

Thanks, Great info, All these years of seeing these hose setups and now I know. Thanks again.

[njslim]

FDNY has a number of high pressure pumpers - they use 3 stage (most are 2 or even
single stage) pumps. The pumpers have a low (for a large pumper) flow capacity of 1000
gal (3800 l) per minute. The high pressure pumpers are used to pressurize the sprinklers
or standpipes of high raise buildings to get water to upper floors. Fire pumps are
placed in various mechanical floors to provide water to the sprinkler or standpipe systems
Most are rated from 500 to 1000 gal/min. Many fire fighting systems in large buildings
are feed from roof top storage tanks. The rule of thumb for a 2 1/2" line is that in can
handle 2500 (50 x50) sq feet - each floor in WTC was over 40,000 sq ft. When one
considers that several floors were heavily if not fully involved in fire, can see the scope
of the task and impossibility of extinguishing the fires. Many of the FDNY realized this -
their primary effort was to get as many people out of the building. Engine companies
entering lobby were doubled up and told to drop half their hose loads. Apparently were
to bring just enough to protect rescue crews and victims, not extinguish the fires.

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.


Rollups is FDNY speak for 50 ft sections of hose rolled into compact "donuts" . Trying
to hump the loads up the stairs would be a b*tch of a job. FDNY men that day would
be hauling some 85-90 lbs/man (55-60 is basic load of bunker gear, boots, SCBA, helmet)
Several years ago had fire in elevator equipment room in 9th story (actually 10th because
was in penthouse on roof) - without elevators had to hump everything up stairs. Felt
like was going to die (and in good shape), we use 1 3/4" hose loads so even lighter than
FDNY would be carrying. Have nothing but awe for what they tried that day...

[NYCEMT86]

njslim - thanks for the additional input. When I was a vollie upstate we had a 12 story retirement apartment and we use to drill there every other month. The lay out of the building was that it had the fire exit doors leading to the outside and were only accessible from the outside, so we couldn't use the elevator at all. We used high rise packs with 1 3/4 inch lines that were all bundled together instead of broken up like FDNY uses and that added with an extra bottle and tools was just insane. Truck work was the worst because we had an old 85 foot snorkel. I couldn't imagine humping all the equipment to the 78th or even 110th floor.

[gumboot]

As I recall, that floor was described as a "sky lobby," suggesting that, since it was not office space, the load of class A fuels would be less than on the floors above. Thus, whatever the extent of the fires there, it would not serve as evidence that the majority of the fires had burnt out on the higher floors as well.


Not to mention only the tip of the port wing hit the 78th floor, and the fuel tanks on a 767 don't reach out that far.

Thanks to all the firefighters who have provided some really interesting and useful information on this thread!

-Gumboot

[Hamradioguy]

Thanks to all the firefighters who have provided some really interesting and useful information on this thread!
-Gumboot

I'll second that. 40 plus years as a volunteer firefighter and it's still interesting to learn new stuff about what the big city guys do. I think the tallest structure in our response area is the Town Hall at about 4 stories. Getting up on a two and a half story roof is plenty of work. Climbing 70 plus flights in full turnout gear? Phew!

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait, wait, wait... guys, I'm sorry I'm late to the conversation, but this non-firefighter needs to clarify something:

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.

...Getting up on a two and a half story roof is plenty of work. Climbing 70 plus flights in full turnout gear? Phew!

Those guys were going to drag those superheavy hoses up 70/80+ flights of stairs from ground level by hand?? Wearing all that gear? Dodging all those evacuees? And fight the fire once they got there??!!

Holy Jesus... Is that for real? Because if it is... Man, I didn't think I could hold those guys in any higher esteem for what they did that day, but I'm wrong. My respect for them just skyrocketed again. I'd be winded carrying a bag of potatoes up 10 flights. Hell, I'd be tired just carrying a bag of potato chips that far. Nevermind the 78 floors it would take to get to the first "isolated pockets" of fire.

I'm struck dumb... I figured that skyscraper firefighting would be a physical challenge, but I had absolutely no clue what the magnitude of that challenge was.

[fezzic]

FEMA report (http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch2.pdf)

The fire sprinklers were retrofitted in the 1990s. There were no sprinklers in the towers when originally constructed.

The fire mains had 2 x 750 gpm pumps and took water from the municipal supply. There were connections for FDNY to connect to to boost pressure to (I guess) various parts of the building.

There were 3 standpipes, one in each stairwell, and (I believe) those were divided into three zones so that loss of one standpipe wouldn't affect the other two.

There were booster pumps (750gpm?) on the 7th, 41st, and 75th floor. Each pump was capable of pumping up 2 stages to provide for the loss of an intervening pump.

There was also water storage tanks (I think one on the 75th floor).

[leftysergeant]

This has to have been the worst nightmare scenario for everyone involved. In the Naudet film, there is a scene where two brothers, both high-ranking officers, look at each other with a look that is all "OH BLEEP!" before one of them goes up the stairs.

So, consider for a moment that, not only are you humping a load that would stagger a normal man, you are knowingly going into an area where everyone with the sense that God gave houseflies is screaming and trying to evacuate, and that you are going up there to test yourself in ways that ordinary men nearly never are tested.

Of all the things I have done in my life, soldier, mess sergeant, security guard, poet, fire fighter, I think that being a fire fighter is a more important part of who I am, even after all these years, even though I never really tested myself to the degree that a FDNY hose dragger does on a regular basis.

The amazing thing, when you look at it rationally, is that most of us love the job and can't imagine being happier with an ordinary profession.

Perhaps those of you who have never done it, but know a few fire fighters may think them a little strange sometimes. I know my son is aghast at some of the things I will laugh at. But is a strange sense of humor really inappropriate in that line of work? I don't think most people could do the job without the ability to laugh at some things that would leave the average person shaking for days.

[Dave Rogers]

Thanks to all the firefighters who have provided some really interesting and useful information on this thread!

Seconded - and thanks, in particular, just for being firefighters.

Dave

[NYCEMT86]

This has to have been the worst nightmare scenario for everyone involved. In the Naudet film, there is a scene where two brothers, both high-ranking officers, look at each other with a look that is all "OH BLEEP!" before one of them goes up the stairs.

So, consider for a moment that, not only are you humping a load that would stagger a normal man, you are knowingly going into an area where everyone with the sense that God gave houseflies is screaming and trying to evacuate, and that you are going up there to test yourself in ways that ordinary men nearly never are tested.

Of all the things I have done in my life, soldier, mess sergeant, security guard, poet, fire fighter, I think that being a fire fighter is a more important part of who I am, even after all these years, even though I never really tested myself to the degree that a FDNY hose dragger does on a regular basis.

The amazing thing, when you look at it rationally, is that most of us love the job and can't imagine being happier with an ordinary profession.

Perhaps those of you who have never done it, but know a few fire fighters may think them a little strange sometimes. I know my son is aghast at some of the things I will laugh at. But is a strange sense of humor really inappropriate in that line of work? I don't think most people could do the job without the ability to laugh at some things that would leave the average person shaking for days.

I have to to agree, I only took EMS as a step in the door way to getting into the suppression side. Now that they canceled the promotional test, I am going to have to wait even longer. Don't get me wrong I like EMS, but humping hose is what I was born to do.

[deep]

So what does this all mean? Well if the stand pipe systems were still intact and operational they would have been able to deliver over 338 GPM (Gallons per minute)


1. According to Fundamentals of Fire Fighting Skills, water can flow through a 2.5" hand line at a maximum of 250 GPM.

2. What exactly have you "debunked" with your (likely erroneous) calculations? The capacity of a fire hose does not change the fact that he reported "isolated pockets of fire" (plural), explaining the need for multiple hand lines. Since a hand line is the lowest common denominator for this sort of thing (short of carrying buckets of water up the stairs), how can you assume that the "isolated pockets of fire" would require anything close to the capacity of the hose?

[NYCEMT86]

1. According to Fundamentals of Fire Fighting Skills, water can flow through a 2.5" hand line at a maximum of 250 GPM.

Can I see this particular claim do you have a link because I would like to see this full context.


ETA: I believe you are referring to PSI. Also, what does the book say? Is it referring to a 2.5" hand-line have a fog pattern nozzle or a smooth bore nozzle? Even with a fog pattern they usually are rated up to 325 GPM at 100 PSI. According to the NFPA 1961 standard for fire hose, they must be tested with a minimum pressure of 300 PSI, but they are rated higher than that.


2. What exactly have you "debunked" with your (likely erroneous) calculations? The capacity of a fire hose does not change the fact that he reported "isolated pockets of fire" (plural), explaining the need for multiple hand lines. Since a hand line is the lowest common denominator for this sort of thing (short of carrying buckets of water up the stairs), how can you assume that the "isolated pockets of fire" would require anything close to the capacity of the hose?

Erroneous calculations? Those are standard calculations in the fire service, as far as I know there have been 3 additional people who have commented in this thread who have been in or currently in the fire service and none of them find my calculations wrong in anyway.

[Drs_Res]

Maybe because he was a fire fighter and he knew how much water can come out of 1 hose vs. 2.

[deep]

Can I see this particular claim do you have a link because I would like to see this full context.


Try this: http://books.google.com/books?id=RhzOkM_Y5MgC&pg=PA625&dq=hand+line+gallons+per+minute&sig=2jEmAd5SmyJAy-W95cMca3ibLXs

You'll see that I'm not referring to PSI.


Erroneous calculations? Those are standard calculations in the fire service, as far as I know there have been 3 additional people who have commented in this thread who have been in or currently in the fire service and none of them find my calculations wrong in anyway.


I said "likely" erroneous, because your findings don't match up with most other published GPM throughput numbers for a 2.5" hand line. There's obviously a chance that the authors of multiple books and other publications are the ones who are wrong.

Either way - what exactly have you debunked? The interesting part of the comment you quoted in your original post was "isolated pockets of fire", as opposed to "two hand lines", since multiple hand lines would be needed to put out fires that are physically spread out, regardless of their size.

[NYCEMT86]

Maybe because he was a fire fighter and he knew how much water can come out of 1 hose vs. 2.

I have an Associates Degree in Fire Science and Protection from the NYS Fire Academy in Montour Falls. I was a vollie for some time during the time I was in the academy. Its been almost 2 years since I was as a firefighter but my knowledge is still strong, though I have been corrected or given additional information, which is not a bad thing since firefighting is always changing and nobody can ever know everything.

[NYCEMT86]

Try this: http://books.google.com/books?id=RhzOkM_Y5MgC&pg=PA625&dq=hand+line+gallons+per+minute&sig=2jEmAd5SmyJAy-W95cMca3ibLXs

You'll see that I'm not referring to PSI.

AND I QUOTE:


Water can flow through these hoses at more than 250 GPM.


No where in that page do I find it say "Maximum of 250 GPM"



I said "likely" erroneous, because your findings don't match up with most other published GPM throughput numbers for a 2.5" hand line. There's obviously a chance that the authors of multiple books and other publications are the ones who are wrong.

Please apologize for your illiteracy and coming to the conclusion that my figures were likely erroneous.


Either way - what exactly have you debunked? The interesting part of the comment you quoted in your original post was "isolated pockets of fire", as opposed to "two hand lines", since multiple hand lines would be needed to put out fires that are physically spread out, regardless of their size.

As we see on the 78th floor in the NIST thermal pictures (source (http://911myths.com/html/no_wtc2_inferno_.html)) that most of the fire is concentrated in a corner and as njslim pointed out one 2.5" line can handle 2500 sq feet, so to call in additional line could mean that the fire was bigger than 2500 sq ft and more spread out.

[Hamradioguy]

OK, a slight derail here, but I see the potential for making a big issue about how many GPM you can get out of a 2.5 inch hose line. The "rule of thumb" is 250GPM for this sized line. But that's not an absolute by any means. It depends on nozzle size, pump pressure, friction loss in the hose (Which goes up astronomically as water flow increases) and practical nozzle pressures for firefighting (Nominal is 50psi for smooth bore tips and 100psi for fog nozzles- but those aren't absolutes either.) FWIW, IFSTA 200 (Essentials of Firefighting) lists "Maximum Efficient Water Capacity US GPM" for 2.5 inch hose as 300GPM. I'm neither a Pump Operator nor an expert in water/pump hydraulics but I'm willing to bet serious money that I can flow far more than 300GPM through a 2.5 inch hose if need be. Any takers? (Yeah, efficiency will drop, but that's a relative term anyway.)

Now, back on thread topic, eh?

[gumboot]

2. What exactly have you "debunked" with your (likely erroneous) calculations? The capacity of a fire hose does not change the fact that he reported "isolated pockets of fire" (plural), explaining the need for multiple hand lines. Since a hand line is the lowest common denominator for this sort of thing (short of carrying buckets of water up the stairs), how can you assume that the "isolated pockets of fire" would require anything close to the capacity of the hose?


A hand line is the lowest common denominator? What do you think firemen use to fight big fires? A hand line is usually the biggest "common denominator".

The problem is conspiracy theorists, for some reason, translate "isolated" as "small". As actual firemen have explained previously in this forum, "isolated" does not mean "small". It means "isolated". An "isolated" fire can still be an enormous raging inferno.

-Gumboot

[deep]

A hand line is the lowest common denominator? What do you think firemen use to fight big fires? A hand line is usually the biggest "common denominator".


Sorry, no. They use master streams to fight big fires (i.e., streams of water that will blow through walls if used in the wrong situation).

The problem is conspiracy theorists, for some reason, translate "isolated" as "small". As actual firemen have explained previously in this forum, "isolated" does not mean "small". It means "isolated". An "isolated" fire can still be an enormous raging inferno.
No, "isolated" means "not close together". "Pocket" means "a small, isolated, or protected area or group".

0-2.

[gumboot]

Sorry, no. They use master streams to fight big fires (i.e., streams of water that will blow through walls if used in the wrong situation).

And how big are the hoses for these "master streams"? Do firemen routinely haul them up skyscrapers?



No, "isolated" means "not close together". "Pocket" means "a small, isolated, or protected area or group".


Um... you bolded the wrong word there...

"Pocket" means "a small, isolated, or protected area or group"

If there had been two small areas of fire, why would he have asked for two lines, when they could have simply knocked one out and then the other? If the fires really were small as well as isolated, a c.250GPM hose would take one out in no time.

-Gumboot

[NYCEMT86]

Sorry, no. They use master streams to fight big fires (i.e., streams of water that will blow through walls if used in the wrong situation).

They wouldn't have been allowed or able to use master streams in the WTC. It would also be impossible and useless to try to hit the fire from the street. I don't know anyone that would stick a monitor inside a building and with the Stand pipe system, you would suck the pipe dry. Master streams are for exterior use only when no interior attack is possible and its very dangerous to spray that amount of water in a building with a crew inside. So in a high rise fire as this one handlines were the best and only choice. If the fire was lower, we wouldn't have seen master streams used until it was deemed to dangerous to do any interior attacks.

No, "isolated" means "not close together". "Pocket" means "a small, isolated, or protected area or group".

0-2.

How small is small compared to 40,000 sq ft floor?

[BenBurch]

How small is small compared to 40,000 sq ft floor?

Thats around 0.92 acres. Now, as I used to have to MOW a one acre lot on a regular basis, I hope to tell you that is a lot of space.

[fezzic]

Fire fighting question (tactics really).

You have a 200 x 200 foot area with a central core (you know the WTC core). There are scattered fires burning of some indeterminate size, but obviously not real large. Above you, there is a larger fire on other floors.

To fight the fires on the floor you are on, would you deploy one or two hoses? This is irrespective of whether you are connecting the hoses to separate standpipes (one in each stairwell) -- if need be assume access to all three stairwells and standpipes.

With the hoses deployed would you send them circling around the central core fighting fires together (i.e. mutual suppport) or would you send one hose clock-wise and the other counter-clockwise (i.e. attacking the fires from both sides), or would you use just one hose and keep the other ready in case of some unexpected fire breaking out?

Given the size of the floor, I wonder if Chief Palmer would have deployed two hoses (the minimum he called for) in any case, unless the fires he could see were absolutely trivial.

[gumboot]

It's worth pointing out that when Palmer made this radio call he was still in the stairwell and therefore could not have seen the entire floor.

-Gumboot

[leftysergeant]

Let me tell the uninformed something about a 2 1/2" hose. They can be quite energetic when charged. Hold it wrong and it can slam you around like a rag doll. That's why, on most nozzles, the handle is pushed forward to turn it off, and one hand stays on the top of the nozzle. I have seen more than one newbie go waltzing with a hose because he held it wrong. (Okay, okay, one of them was me. Gimme a break. At least I learned something from it.) We are talking about an awful lot of water, at any rate.

Now, we must also bear in mind that what Palmer saw was probably not the entire floor. We don't know how much smoke there was on the floor, what kind of dividers there were or what was burning. We just know that he needed more than one line to put it out.

Now, since heat rises and, consequentially, fire spreads upward far more easily than it travels downward, unless transported by burning liquids flowing down stairs or through gaps in a floor, the fact that there was any fire at all on #78 indicates that the fires were far from going out of their own accord. They should, by the CT reasoning, have nearly burned themselves out already.

Given the extent of the fires, even bringing in off-duty personnel left them short-handed, and it would be an unwise use of manpower to assign two teams to a floor where the fire was dying already.

There would be a minimum of two men on each line, perhaps three, as per local SOPs. Two handle the line, one watches what is going on in most cases.

Ergo, there is nothing in Palmer's last words to indicate that this was a minor situation.

[njslim]

One of the reasons FDNY use 2 1/2 " lines (most others use 1 3/4") is because of size of
and heavy fire loads found in many NY buildings. Worse thing can do is use too small
a line - few years back were called in to back up other town for structure fire in house.
Started as burning TV in basement rec room, chief (who shall remain nameless , as
will the town) started off with booster line normally used for small brush/trash fires.
Fire began getting out of hand, started yelling for 1 3/4", by time got it into action
fire was out of control, next 2 1/2" "blitz" line. Again not enough, we wound up at
scene pumping into master streams from outside (surround and drown). Heard everything
over radio.