Ziad Jarrah question

[cozmo236]

I recently came across a post on the Loose Change forums concerning Ziad Jarrah's email address as registered with travelocity.com as revealed in page 28 of this document xxx.vaed.uscourts.gov /notablecases/moussaoui/ exhibits/prosecution/ OG00013. pdf

The email he registered with was ziadjarrah@ab.com. This domain is currently Allen Bradley, a brand owned by Rockwell Automation. I've emailed the major 911 debunking websites to ask them if they've done any research on this particular fact. I heard back from Mike Williams of 911myths.com who said it's one of the things on his list for future Freedom of Information Act requests. I've also emailed Rockwell Automation to ask them how it would've been possible for Jarrah to obtain an email address at that domain, although I'm not entirely sure I directed that inquiry to the correct address. I also emailed Mark Roberts, Gravy on this site, to see if he had ever come across this so Mark if you're reading this I'm not sure if I used your correct email. Anyway, I was just wondering what everyone thought about this. I also wanted to know if anyone here is registered with travelocity and has used it and if a valid email is really necessary for any of the things you would use travelocity for. I actually tried to register myself with travelocity and used an invalid email with the domain of ab.com and I registered just fine.

[Oliver]

That's interesting ... This Blog raises this question as well ... :

This point is really hammered home by something a friend of mine turned up not too long ago: in a document from the Zacharias Moussaoui trial there is a listing of real name usages by various hijackers. Among these, which I find quite hilarious, is the fact that Atta’s e-mail address was mohammedatta@hotmail.com. Ziad Jarrah likewise used his real name, ziadjarrah@ab.com. This latter e-mail address raises further curious questions: currently ab.com is the domain for Rockwell Automation, a major defense contractor. Whether this was their domain name back in 2000 is something which will require further investigation, so if anyone can find that out, please bring it forward.

Source: http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/06/01/danners-the-age-of-rhetoric/

[Oliver]

Debunkers ... ? :confused:

LIHOP or MIHOP? :p

[KoihimeNakamura]

Heinlein's Razor" has since been defined as variations on Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.

(incidently, hotmail is a free/open service. I'll poke at ab.com later.)

[KoihimeNakamura]

CANN Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
Created: 1988-10-12
Expires: 2011-10-11
Registrar Status: clientTransferProhibited
Name Server: CLEFW.RA.ROCKWELL.COM
Name Server: MKEFW.RA.ROCKWELL.COM
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com

Nope, they owned it. It could ahve been an invalid address.

[tacodaemon]

For what it's worth, ab.com has indeed been Allen-Bradley at least since 1996 (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ab.com/).

Do you have to give travelocity a real email address? Or did you back when Jarrah signed up? Because (I'm just tossing out ideas here) "ab.com" sounds like the kind of fake address someone might make up to avoid spam...

[Oliver]

For what it's worth, ab.com has indeed been Allen-Bradley at least since 1996 (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ab.com/).

Do you have to give travelocity a real email address? Or did you back when Jarrah signed up? Because (I'm just tossing out ideas here) "ab.com" sounds like the kind of fake address someone might make up to avoid spam...


The question for me would be: If this Email is valid
and was being used by Ziad Jarrah, how the ****
did he get an internal Email-Address from AB.COM? :confused:

[tacodaemon]

Somebody at 9/11 Blogger suggests (http://www.911blogger.com/node/9654#comment-152967) that Jarrah might have somehow come by an ab.com email address while he was working for Volkswagen in Germany.

[Oliver]

Somebody at 9/11 Blogger suggests (http://www.911blogger.com/node/9654#comment-152967) that Jarrah might have somehow come by an ab.com email address while he was working for Volkswagen in Germany.


That's BS and doesn't make any sense at all:

In 1997, Jarrah left Greifswald and instead began studying aerospace engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospace_engineering) at the University of Applied Sciences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Applied_Sciences) in Hamburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg), while working at a Volkswagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen) paint shop in nearby Wolfsburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg). While in Hamburg, he rented an apartment from Rosemarie Canel, who would paint a portrait of him that he would bring back as a gift for his mother that December.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziad_Jarrah#_note-1)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziad_Jarrah#Early_life




You have to work for a company to get an own email from
them. At least this is the case here in Germany. And a VW-
Paint-Shop surely isn't something that would qualify for an
Email Address at AB...

[tacodaemon]

You have to work for a company to get an own email from them. At least this is the case here in Germany.

I dunno, contractors who work in another company's offices or on another company's site will not uncommonly get an email address from that company.

And a VW-Paint-Shop surely isn't something that would qualify for an Email Address at AB...

Probably not, sounds like a bad lead, unless perhaps he was doing something like installing AB factory automation stuff there or whatever. Pretty unlikely though I think.

[GreNME]

Heinlein's Razor" has since been defined as variations on Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.(incidently, hotmail is a free/open service. I'll poke at ab.com later.)

Err... that would be Hanlon's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor), not Heinlein's. :)

I think Heinlein took it and ran with it.

[Oliver]

I dunno, contractors who work in another company's offices or on another company's site will not uncommonly get an email address from that company.

Probably not, sounds like a bad lead, unless perhaps he was doing something like installing AB factory automation stuff there or whatever. Pretty unlikely though I think.


BBC reports that Mounir al-Motassadek (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2223152.stm) did work at Volkswagen as well.
Probably as a simple worker. This probably might be true for Ziad as well

.... didn't find more info about Ziad's workplaces yet ....

[cozmo236]

That's interesting ... This Blog raises this question as well ... :

For the record the person who posted that was wrong about Rockwell Automation. It is not a defense contractor.

[Oliver]

For the record the person who posted that was wrong about Rockwell Automation. It is not a defense contractor.


I also failed to confirm this claim ... But the question remains, what
the heck had Ziad to do with this Company...?


At Rockwell Automation, helping manufacturers succeed and grow is what we do best — with industrial automation control and information solutions designed to give our customers a competitive advantage. From stand-alone, industrial components to enterprise-wide integrated systems, our solutions have proven themselves across a wide range of industries and in some of the most demanding manufacturing environments.

Source: http://www.rockwellautomation.com/about_us/

[cozmo236]

I also failed to confirm this claim ... But the question remains, what
the heck had Ziad to do with this Company...?

That would be the question. As I said I've emailed Rockwell Automation but as of right now have not heard back.

[Oliver]

Here's the Source from the OP ... On which side within the PDF
is the Email mentioned ? ...

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/OG00013.pdf

[cozmo236]

Do you have to give travelocity a real email address? Or did you back when Jarrah signed up? Because (I'm just tossing out ideas here) "ab.com" sounds like the kind of fake address someone might make up to avoid spam...

Apparently you do not have to give travelocity a valid email address to register at the present time as I've recently registered with what I assume is an invalid address. I'm not sure if you had to when Jarrah signed up. You're absolutely right about "ab.com" sounding fake.

[cozmo236]

Here's the Source from the OP ... On which side within the PDF
is the Email mentioned ? ...



28

[Oliver]

28


Holy Snap! This is quite interesting. :)

Are you a Truther, "OCT'ist" or undecided?

If you're a Truther, this is a very interesting detail that the
Truthers certainly should dig into....

[cozmo236]

Holy Snap! This is quite interesting. :)

Are you a Truther, "OCT'ist" or undecided?

If you're a Truther, this is a very interesting detail that the
Truthers certainly should dig into....

I am in no way a "Truther". Not to lump all the "truthers" together but I've never in my life encountered a group of people so consistently uninformed as them. I guess I'm what you refer to as a "OCT'ist" as all the evidence seems to point toward the "official" story. As for the "truthers" digging into this subject I wouldn't expect too much. If you go to the Loose Change forum you can see the response there. In the category named "The Hijackers" there's a post titled "Hijacker Worked For U.s. Defense Contractor".

[Oliver]

I am in no way a "Truther". Not to lump all the "truthers" together but I've never in my life encountered a group of people so consistently uninformed as them. I guess I'm what you refer to as a "OCT'ist" as all the evidence seems to point toward the "official" story. As for the "truthers" digging into this subject I wouldn't expect too much. If you go to the Loose Change forum you can see the response there. In the category named "The Hijackers" there's a post titled "Hijacker Worked For U.s. Defense Contractor".


*lol* Yes, I guess this means you're a OCT'ist ... :D

OCT means "Official Conspiracy Theory" - or in other words: The official version.

Mhmmm, maybe I should ask Killtown if this is interesting to him
since the Truthers don't see the fascinating aspect of this... :blush:

But it should be quite interesting for the "Debunkers" as well...

[tacodaemon]

For the record the person who posted that was wrong about Rockwell Automation. It is not a defense contractor.


The parent company Rockwell International has got a ton of different businesses, some of which do defense work. To conspiracy theorists, that means that any person who has anything to do with any unit of Rockwell International, whether it does defense work or not, is a member of the military-industrial complex.

[gumboot]

For the record the person who posted that was wrong about Rockwell Automation. It is not a defense contractor.


They're probably thinking of Rockwell International, which was a defense contractor. After the death of the founder, they sold off their defense interests in late 1996 with most of their other interests sold or separated into other companies in the following years. In 2001 what was left of the company split into Rockwell Collins and Rockwell Automation.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Allen-Bradley is the brand name for Rockwell Automation's Factory Automation Equipment which sounds like the sort of thing a VW paint shop might use.

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

They're probably thinking of Rockwell International, which was a defense contractor. After the death of the founder, they sold off their defense interests in late 1996 with most of their other interests sold or separated into other companies in the following years. In 2001 what was left of the company split into Rockwell Collins and Rockwell Automation.

-Gumboot


How do you explain the Email-address since the connection
between Ziad and AB is pretty curious? I failed to make sense
out of this yet...

[Oliver]

Allen-Bradley is the brand name for Rockwell Automation's Factory Automation Equipment which sounds like the sort of thing a VW paint shop might use.

-Gumboot


Yes - this might be true. But it doesn't make sense to
provide an AB-Email-Account because of that...

[KoihimeNakamura]

Or as others have pointed out, travelocity does not check their email addresses.

[gumboot]

How do you explain the Email-address since the connection
between Ziad and AB is pretty curious? I failed to make sense
out of this yet...

Yes - this might be true. But it doesn't make sense to
provide an AB-Email-Account because of that...


A) We don't know that this email address ever actually existed
B) It's not unheard of for companies to give email addresses to clients and so forth
C) It's possible Ziad worked for the company in some capacity for a time while in the USA, maybe as a temp or something.

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

A) We don't know that this email address ever actually existed
B) It's not unheard of for companies to give email addresses to clients and so forth
C) It's possible Ziad worked for the company in some capacity for a time while in the USA, maybe as a temp or something.

-Gumboot


I try to get more information about the work relationships Jarrah
had ... so far I suspect he had a "sideline-job" at Volkswagen, just
like Motassadek - nothing important at all...

But it's interesting to know how he got this email - or how this
email did end up within this official document...

[Shrinker]

Oliver, what evidence is there that Jarrah ever received an email at this address?

Without that, the speculation is meaningless. There are many was to 'use' an email address without it being valid.

[Gravy]

Rockwell Automation makes, among other things, Allen-Bradley controls for automated automotive painting.
http://www.rockwellautomation.com.au/applications/css_artilce.nsf/vCountryEXT/516665F7010A916386256F40007A6C1F?OpenDocument

The hijackers sometimes used fake addresses when they wanted to conceal their identities. That information is in the 9/11 commission report. I see no reason why they would not do the same with email addresses, as long as it wasn't necessary to receive emails there.

[Gravy]

The question for me would be: If this Email is valid
and was being used by Ziad Jarrah, how the ****
did he get an internal Email-Address from AB.COM? :confused:The first question should be, "Is this email valid and being used by Ziad Jarrah?" It is useless to speculate if you can't answer that.

If I give an email address as Gravy@microsoft.com (Gravy@microsoft.co), it doesn't mean I have any connection to Microsoft, any more than giving my street address as 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue means I live in the White House.

[T.A.M.]

Questions:
1. Did investigators claim to find any mail at the given address.
2. If he booked his flights with this address, would he not be sent info confirming registration at said address.
3. He was born into a wealthy family, did any of them work for Rockwell or AB?
4. If they were trying to fake the hijackers, WHY would they use such an address, with the now mentioned potential implications, when an msn or hotmail address would have been much easier.

TAM:)

[Gravy]

I also emailed Mark Roberts, Gravy on this site, to see if he had ever come across this so Mark if you're reading this I'm not sure if I used your correct email.It's nyctours(at)gmail(dot)com. A search of my email for "Jarrah" came up blank.

[Disbelief]

How do you explain the Email-address since the connection
between Ziad and AB is pretty curious? I failed to make sense
out of this yet...

Since VW would very likely use AB equipment (many, many car makers use them), he may have known someone who worked for AB. AB provides on-site support for many clients, especially when opening a new facility or when major modifications are done. If Ziad communicated with someone from AB, he may have known there email address and just used the AB.com as a fake since he knew the domain was real.

[Jonnyclueless]

The possibilities are endless. What is most interesting are the people who are ONLY interested in ONE of those possibilities.

It's the whole "assume a conspiracy theory until proven otherwise" mentality. The millions of rational explanations are pointless so long as there is a single possibility of a conspiracy theory, as weak as it may be.

[Dave Rogers]

Think yourselves lucky Jarrah wasn't very slightly less creative in picking an imaginary e-mail address. What would the conspiracy theorists have made of him giving out an address that traced back to American Airlines?

Dave

[cozmo236]

It's nyctours(at)gmail(dot)com. A search of my email for "Jarrah" came up blank.

Thanks for the clarification. I did in fact use the wrong email address. I used the one given in your guide to Loose Change.

[Undesired Walrus]

Ziad Jarrah booked his september 11th flight in person I believe.

[cozmo236]

Ziad Jarrah booked his september 11th flight in person I believe.

Actually Jarrah did it online on the United Airlines website on August 30th-

xxx(dot)vaed(dot)uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/OG00020-03.pdf

Just replace that "xxx" with www I'm still not allowed to post url's.

[Dave Rogers]

How do you explain the Email-address since the connection
between Ziad and AB is pretty curious? I failed to make sense
out of this yet...

Given that the e-mail address appears never to have been validated, this is about as significant a question as Zensmack asking how the hijackers got pretend bombs aboard the airliners.

Dave

[DavidJames]

Given that the e-mail address appears never to have been validated, this is about as significant a question as Zensmack asking how the hijackers got pretend bombs aboard the airliners.

Dave
Thank you!

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking after the OP. Enough already with questions about someone's perceived anomaly.

[Undesired Walrus]

Oliver, I fear you are always on the verge of sliding back into truther territory.

[Oliver]

BS! I like Puzzles - and this is an unsolved one.

Gee. Where did all the Debunker go who once upon a time
also thought this way about solving mysteries and debunking
claims like this one?

Retired? :confused:

[Disbelief]

BS! I like Puzzles - and this is an unsolved one.

Gee. Where did all the Debunker go who once upon a time
also thought this way about solving mysteries and debunking
claims like this one?

Retired? :confused:

So, what will you do? I would think you would contact VW and see what capacity he served at the plant. Operator (usually not too many in an automated paint shop)? Technician? Toolmaker? Robot Programmer? Material support?

Then, you could contact AB and ask if it was a real email address. If so, you could inquire why. If not, you could look at his job and see if he would have had interaction with AB. That's why I added material, as he could have helped aquire spare parts.

[Kryptos]

It is possible now to sign up for a Travelocity account with a bogus e-mail address. I just did it! I put in a bogus e-mail address for a domain that I own, but the e-mail account does not exist. No problem for Travelocity. I'm sure I can book a flight now. Of course, I would have to provide legitimate credit card information, but the e-mail address doesn't matter.

It just means I won't get confirmation and a receipt via e-mail. That's all. Not a big deal. If I wanted a print-out, I would just have to print out the confirmation page when I do the booking. Or I could log back in and print it out later. Or just show up at the airport, and they have would have my e-ticket on file. It would be in the system when I check in at the kiosk or at the counter.

Why Ziad Jarrah didn't bother with using a free Yahoo! or hotmail account, I don't know. But, I think it's likely he made up the ziadjarrah@ab.com address.

Another point to keep in mind is that the hijackers booked many of their flights at Kinkos and such places. Even today, only some work places provide remote access to your work e-mail. I think remote access was less common back in 2001. Would an employee at Rockwell (Allen Bradley) be able to access their e-mail from Kinkos back in 2001?

It is very unlikely that this ab.com address used by Jarrah was legit, that he booked this flight at Kinko's, was able to remotely access Allen-Bradley's e-mail system and print out a copy of his reservation. Why bother, when he can print it out from the Travelocity website. It doesn't matter what e-mail address you give Travelocity.

[cozmo236]

I'd say that things are now heavily leaning toward Jarrah simply making this email address up. We have no evidence that the email address in question was valid and evidence that a valid email address is not necessary when using travelocity. There is also this evidence of a functioning email address used by Jarrah- http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/thepilot/email.pdf This is an email from Aysel Senguen, Jarrah's girlfriend, to Jarrah. His email here is s1512671@rzbt.fh-Hamburg.de This matches the email hand-written on this contact report for Jarrah- http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/MM00008.pdf

[Kryptos]

Another important detail here is how the e-mail address is formatted:
ziadjarrah@ab.com

I'm looking through Lexis-Nexis and found actual e-mail addresses for Allen-Bradley employees. They follow the format: john.doe@ab.com (with a period) and not johndoe@ab.com (like Jarrah's faked e-mail address).

[cozmo236]

That's an excellent find Kryptos.

[T.A.M.]

the question would then be, in 2000-2001, did they also follow the john.doe@ab.com format?

TAM:)

[rwguinn]

BS! I like Puzzles - and this is an unsolved one.

Gee. Where did all the Debunker go who once upon a time
also thought this way about solving mysteries and debunking
claims like this one?

Retired? :confused:

e mail me at this.hotel@somewhere.usa


or
whatever@I.want
so I can tell you how to do it...

making up email addresses is easy@spie.com

only a woo-woo-fer would attachany significance to it.
Btw--the this.hotel@somewhere.usa (this.hotel@somewhere.usa) is the one I use on USNET as a "Mail to" address.

[Kryptos]

the question would then be, in 2000-2001, did they also follow the john.doe@ab.com format?

TAM:)

Yes, that's the format used, going back as far as 1996.

[T.A.M.]

is that the only format?

In other words, did they have two formats, one using the john.doe@, the other using johndoe@...

Sorry for pressing, but these are questions you know will be thrown out there, and if we wanna use the address format as strong proof, than these questions need to be answered.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

e mail me at this.hotel@somewhere.usa


or
whatever@I.want
so I can tell you how to do it...

making up email addresses is easy@spie.com

only a woo-woo-fer would attachany significance to it.
Btw--the this.hotel@somewhere.usa (this.hotel@somewhere.usa) is the one I use on USNET as a "Mail to" address.

exactly, which brings be back to point #1 from my post earlier...

Did investigators find any email at this address besides a confirmation and e-receipt from travelocity.com??

TAM:)

[CurtC]

Rockwell Automation also makes the Retro-Incabulator:

TuhYd9L_d7w

[rwguinn]

is that the only format?

In other words, did they have two formats, one using the john.doe@, the other using johndoe@...

Sorry for pressing, but these are questions you know will be thrown out there, and if we wanna use the address format as strong proof, than these questions need to be answered.

TAM:)
What difference does it make? It is easily shome that any format can be useed to make up an email address
it is simply a@b.ss 4 characters. I can be rwg@ab.com . It has absolutely no significance whatsoever. Twoofers won't believe its not another clue left by those brilliant people who can't even fake the FDR to show a crash...

[Kryptos]

is that the only format?

In other words, did they have two formats, one using the john.doe@, the other using johndoe@...

Sorry for pressing, but these are questions you know will be thrown out there, and if we wanna use the address format as strong proof, than these questions need to be answered.

TAM:)

That format is all I found. Except for webmaster@ab.com and info@ab.com. Nothing with the "johndoe@..." format.

Also, I found these pages, which use fake @ab.com addresses as examples:

http://www.novell.com/netherlands/download/id_manag_web_serv-tour.pdf
http://www.ilovejackdaniels.com/php/email-address-validation/

[T.A.M.]

What difference does it make? It is easily shome that any format can be useed to make up an email address
it is simply a@b.ss 4 characters. I can be rwg@ab.com . It has absolutely no significance whatsoever. Twoofers won't believe its not another clue left by those brilliant people who can't even fake the FDR to show a crash...

Well if there was correspondence from Jarrad in the "sent" box, or other info related to other terrorists in his "in"box for this address, than it would be proof that he used the account...that is my only point.

TAM:)