Lavon Affair and Israel Conspiracies

[Thunder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_affair

The Lavon Affair was a failed attempt by Israel to attack Western civilian targets in Egypt, blaim it on the Arabs, and convince the British not to withdraw from the Suez Canal. The plan failed and great damage was done to Israel's trustworthyness (only 6 years old at the time).

And a few years ago, Israel awarded medals to the surviving participants in the operation. Israel actually rewarded people, who's goal it was to murder innocent civilians, inorder to frame another nation, to achieve Israel's goals. How in the name of God would Israel reward these people? What does this say about Israel?

The ultimate issue here is: if they could do it in 1954...could they do it again in 2007?

The Lavon Affair proved without a shadow of a doubt that Israel is 100% compable of launching a false-flag terrorist attack, in order to blaim the Arabs, in the hopes that the target of the attack will retaliate against the Arabs.

I do not believe that Israel is responsible for 9-11, for there is just no evidence to support the idea. But anyone who says that the concept that Israel could attempt such a dastardly deed is an "anti-Semite" needs to be told only one thing: Lavon Affair.

[Drudgewire]

In the early 1950s the United States began pressuring the British to withdraw from the Suez Canal, and thereby abandon two operative treaties, the Convention of Constantinople and the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936 that made the canal a neutral zone under British control. Israel was strongly opposed to the British withdrawal...
How can that be? I thought the US has been a Zionist tool since the end of WWII? :confused:

[dudalb]

Another "Hate Israel" thread from Parky76.
Big surprise.

[boloboffin]

To me, this is a primary example of why states so rarely try to carry out false flag attacks.

[Thunder]

I used to be much much fonder of Israel, in my earlier years. Then I began to read.

But reading that Israel would actually reward people who tried to murder civilians in order to blaim the Arabs, and force a Western retaliation, makes me really wonder if Israel deserves the little bit of support I do give them.

[dudalb]

I used to be much much fonder of Israel, in my earlier years. Then I began to read.

But reading that Israel would actually reward people who tried to murder civilians in order to blaim the Arabs, and force a Western retaliation, makes me really wonder if Israel deserves the little bit of support I do give them.

Or maybe you just think that Israel and the lives of five million Jews are a small price to pay for "peace" in the MidEast?

[Thunder]

In the bigoted, warped, extremist, dishonest minds of right-wing Zionists..peace is BAD for Israel.

How could full diplomatic and economic relations with the Arab states be BAD for Israel? The Middle East could become a new power house of technology and economic power.

But in exchange for peace for their children..and a bright future for all the peoples of the Middle East, Israel must give up all or most of the West Bank, the Arab sectors of Jerusalem, and parts of the Old City.

Only in the mind of insane extremists, would land be more important then peace and prosperity.

Its like what Golda Meir said. There will be peace in the Middle East only when the Israelis and the Palestinians love their children more then they hate each other, and let go of their insane extremist ideas.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Its like what Golda Meir said. There will be peace in the Middle East only when the Israelis and the Palestinians love their children more then they hate each other, and let go of their insane extremist ideas.

The actual quote you so viciously mangled above has been disputed as to wether or not Golda actually said it.

Even then, you failed to get it right, the known variants on that quote go something like "There will be peace when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us."

There are numerous variations, both in the quote itself and the date she allegedly said it (as much as 20 years between them). But the quote never places blame for all this hatred on anyone but the Arabs.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Another "Hate Israel" thread from Parky76.
Big surprise.
Any such posting history by parky76 is irrelevant to the OP. Either the OP is factually correct, or it is not. Argument, not arguer, etc, etc

Or maybe you just think that Israel and the lives of five million Jews are a small price to pay for "peace" in the MidEast?
Strawman and argumentum ad hominem.

[Thunder]

Hey. Everyone here knows I dislike and distrust the Jewish state. But the facts of the Lavon Affair remain. Israel attempted a false-flag terror attack, which would blaim the Arabs, and hopefully instigate a Western retaliation.

If they did it before..they can do it again. Which is why I am extremally suspicous of the USS Liberty.

[mailman]

But in exchange for peace for their children..and a bright future for all the peoples of the Middle East, Israel must give up all or most of the West Bank, the Arab sectors of Jerusalem, and parts of the Old City.

This is what I dont get. Why does Israel have to give up parts of Jerusalem? After all, it was a Jewish city hundreds of years before a muslim even existed.

So, if (as is totted out all the time) ownership is taken on who was there first...then Arabs have absolutely no claim to any part of Israel or Jerusalem because they werent the first there.

Or am I getting something wrong here?

Mailman

[SDC]

I hope this can stick to the OP and not go off into a general discussion of Israeli topics.

And with regard to the Lavon affair... You know, welcome to the "community" of nations. Things like this happen all the time. And if I understand correctly, it flopped. Using your Wikipedia link -- never a strong source in such a controversial area -- I read that, "They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths." In fact, it was the death knell for the Egyptian Jewish community and its 2,000+ year history; 25,000 were expelled, basically all that had remained the persecution of the preceding several years, and 1,000 were in prisons or camps in Egypt. (Again, I'm drawing from Wikipedia.)

So what do you know. Israel is a nation like others. But its crimes -- I think we can agree on the term in this case -- are constantly trotted out while those of its enemies are forgotten.

Does MaGZ monitor JREF forums for opportunities? I had the impression he does. Well, all I can say then is I expect him to pop by. Hello, MaGZ; I hate your views, but you are always civil.

Edit: Oh please, not the Liberty. There are threads devoted to that. Could we stick to a single topic? Or is this going to be everything bad that Israel is accused of.

[Henry Crun]

Are some people in Israel capable of a false flag to provoke retaliation by a third country?

Sure, there are hawks, there are doves, there are clever and there are stupid Israelis. Even in Zahal.

Would it be necessary today? Would it be worth the risk?

I don´t think so. There are rule10ed people in the region enough. You don´t have to MAKE them anymore - they are there. 1954 was before 1956 and 1967 or even 1982.

The other things imho: it´s not in Israels interest to involve the US (or EU or NATO or Burkina-Faso) any further in the region because it would limit her own possibilities.
Israel is far more stronger than 53 years ago.
If they want an airstrike against a syrian reactor, they go there, drop some missiles, leave and just don´t talk about it.
Why should they want foreign involvement?
If they want retaliation they can have it the time they want and the way they want.

It is always hard to evaluate Israel. They don´t trust the dictatorships around her, they don´t trust their friends. I think they are absolutely right to do so.

There has to be some unpredictable element in her politics (even this is quite the opposite one would understand by the term "diplomacy").
This would be limited, if USA or UN would have a cause and a mandat to take the action.

So I think, Israel would not prefer by any false-flag operation to bring in a third party on the scenario.
But I may wrong, wouldn´t be the first time...

Sorry if my english is too lousy or I missed ze point.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Does MaGZ monitor JREF forums for opportunities? I had the impression he does. Well, all I can say then is I expect him to pop by. Hello, MaGZ; I hate your views, but you are always civil.

Magz states his ideas with a minimum of 4 letter words or abuse of the caps-lock key, but there is absolutely nothing "civil" about the savage barbarity he openly advocates.

[SDC]

Magz states his ideas with a minimum of 4 letter words or abuse of the caps-lock key, but there is absolutely nothing "civil" about the savage barbarity he openly advocates.

OK, you are right, stupid on my part.

It's just seeing this dreadful affair, which essentially spelled the end of an ancient Jewish community thanks to sheer stupidity, put forward as proof of 2007 Israeli untrustworthiness, well, it's frustrating at least.

Thanks for setting me right without anger.

[Whack01]

I thought people would source their stuff better here; from the articles cited in wikipedia:


http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3065838,00.html#n (http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3065838,00.html#n)
"
Israel honors 9 Egyptian spies

After 50 years, President Katsav presents three surviving members with certificates of appreciation at Jerusalem ceremony
By Reuters

JERUSALEM - After half a century of reticence and recrimination, Israel on Wednesday honored nine Egyptian Jews recruited as agents-provocateur in what became one of the worst intelligence bungles in the country's history. Israel was at war with Egypt when it hatched a plan in 1954 to ruin its rapprochement with the United States and Britain by firebombing sites frequented by foreigners in Cairo and Alexandria. But Israeli hopes the attacks, which caused no casualties, would be blamed on local insurgents collapsed when the young Zionist bombers were caught and confessed at public trials. Two were hanged. The rest served jail terms and emigrated to Israel. Embarrassed before the West, Israel long denied involvement. It kept mum even after its 1979 peace deal with Egypt, fearing memories of the debacle could sour ties.

"Although it is still a sensitive situation, we decided now to express our respect for these heroes," President Moshe Katsav said after presenting the three surviving members of the bomber ring with certificates of appreciation at a Jerusalem ceremony. What went wrong in the "Lavon Affair" - after Pinhas Lavon, Israel's defence minister when the plot came to light - remains a matter of debate in a country more used to tales of espionage coups.

The Egyptian agents were ignored

The Egyptian Jews were recruited by a fringe unit of Military Intelligence rather than the premier Israeli spy agency Mossad. The situation recurred in 1985, when U.S. Navy analyst Jonathan Pollard was sentenced to life imprisonment in the United States for passing military secrets to Israel's scientific liaison office. "As with Pollard, this (Lavon Affair) was a rogue operation," David Kimche, a former Mossad deputy chief, said. "We knew never to go down that road again." There is a twist to the Egyptian case - the now widespread belief that the bombers were betrayed to the authorities by their Israeli handler, who turned double-agent. "The general feeling is that he was the one who caused it all," Kimche said. Under a veil of secrecy, the handler was tried for contacts with Egyptian intelligence and jailed for 10 years. Meanwhile, the agents locked up in Egypt were ignored, excluded from several prisoner exchanges with Israel after the wars of 1956 and 1967.

Now that they have been officially recognised in Israel, the former agents are campaigning for a full account of their operation to be included in the high-school syllabus. "This is a great day for all of us, those who were hanged and those who died," Marcelle Ninio, the only female member of the cell, said. "We are happy we've got our honor back." "





There's a big difference between Sabotage and a mass murdering terrorist attack. Although this attack is inexcusable, it does not rise to anywhere near the level that current terrorist attacks are rising. To draw a parallel between an isolated "rogue" operation that happened 50 years ago that was designed to kill no one and mass murder is just insane. (note: I'm only calling this a rogue operation because the ONLY cited source refers to it as one; I know only what I've read.)

Also the article cited as a reference refers to the devices as an "firebombs" where as the wikipedia entry purporting to describe the events describes them using "acid placed over nitroglycerine" ? This does not sound like a "firebomb" to me, but I don't know much about explosives other than that nitroglycerine is misspelled in the wikipedia entry and if memory serves is considered an explosive not incendiary (though I'm guessing that's what the acid served for though I could be wrong). I'd like more info on the devices used to determine if they were meant to be lethal.