Steven Jones on thermite and toasted cars

[leftysergeant]

Well, I stumbled on a YouTube clip of Jones nattering about his thermite theory. He makes mention of some of the elements found in WTC dust, including zinc, manganese and barium. (He did not himself find the barium. He mentions the USGS collecting it.) These things are all used in military thermite.

Zinc is also used in galvanized steel screws, electrical conduits, trash cans, desk drawer pulls, door knobs, kick plates on doors and some medications.

Manganese is also alloyed with iron to make certain high-strength steels.

Every painted surface in the building probably contained some barium oxide as a white pigment.

He also points out the supposedly anomolous burnt vehicles and says that they were probably burned by thermite residues.

Uhhhh....huh?

Had there been enough thermite residues in the dust plumes to do that, no one would have survived being over-taken by the dust. And, had a blob or two of still-burning thermite fallen through the dust, it would have been visible as a blinding light even in the midst of the dust.

Is the feud between Jones and judy over who gets custody of the toasted cars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkvVS2isMU

[westprog]

He also points out the supposedly anomolous burnt vehicles and says that they were probably burned by thermite residues.

Uhhhh....huh?

Had there been enough thermite residues in the dust plumes to do that, no one would have survived being over-taken by the dust. And, had a blob or two of still-burning thermite fallen through the dust, it would have been visible as a blinding light even in the midst of the dust.

Is the feud between Jones and judy over who gets custody of the toasted cars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkvVS2isMU

I suppose that it's barely possible that a speck of thermite could have floated down and ignited a car, but it's extremely unlikely.

I've just heard from a family member about a school chemistry experiment which involved making thermite and igniting it on an abandoned car. That's how to get kids involved in science.

[TheRedWorm]

...

Is the feud between Jones and judy over who gets custody of the toasted cars?



Can I sig that?

[CHF]

Yeah, two skyscrapers burn out of control for over an hour...and Jones thinks that nearby burned cars were the work of thermite?

And this is the brightest mind in Twoofer Land???

[SDC]

Is the feud between Jones and judy over who gets custody of the toasted cars?



Cut down by me to the toast.

I suspect that Jones is a secret follower of an international conspiratorial movement worshipping the memory of the Duke of Wellington and this is a coded message to his cohorts. I quote from Eliz. David's great book, "English Bread and Yeast Cookery," 1977, p.540: "It isn't only fictional heroes to whom toast means home and comfort. It is related of the Duke of Wellington -- I believe by Lord Ellesmere -- that when he landed at Dover in 1814, after six years' absence from England, the first order he gave at the Ship Inn was for an unlimited supply of buttered toast."

Well, I think it's obvious. Or not.

Edit: ps OK is joke.

[GreNME]

I suppose that it's barely possible that a speck of thermite could have floated down and ignited a car, but it's extremely unlikely.

I've just heard from a family member about a school chemistry experiment which involved making thermite and igniting it on an abandoned car. That's how to get kids involved in science.

It's really not possible, not if they're talking about the pictures of the cars I've seen.

Thermite would have burned a hole or holes clear through the car, not ignited (and melted) the car. Just because someone tries to come up with a story of dubious plausability to support their theory doesn't mean that their magic thermite dust can automagically become the panacea for things that don't fit neatly into their conspiracy box.

[N.Texas]

Zinc is also used in galvanized steel screws, electrical conduits, trash cans, desk drawer pulls, door knobs, kick plates on doors and some medications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkvVS2isMU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYeL3fowrHg
OYeL3fowrHg

[GreNME]

pssst: this might help (http://forums.randi.org/misc.php?do=bbcode)

[N.Texas]

Thanks!

[PixyMisa]

That was beautiful. Snif. See, I'm moved to tears!

[JamesB]

It was the rivers of glowing thermite flowing down the streets of Manhattan!

[BenBurch]

Yeah, two skyscrapers burn out of control for over an hour...and Jones thinks that nearby burned cars were the work of thermite?

And this is the brightest mind in Twoofer Land???

You have to understand; He's PLAYING them. This is about fleecing them for all they are worth and allowing Jones a comfortable retirement.

[SDC]

You have to understand; He's PLAYING them. This is about fleecing them for all they are worth and allowing Jones a comfortable retirement.

I feel compelled to object. You may be kidding, but, everything I've heard about Jones would indicate his sincerity.

Of course, I'm the person who suggested the Duke of Wellington counter-theory.

[Whack01]

I'm kinda lame at chemistry but aren't Thermite reactions extremely fast?

How much thermite would it take to sustain a hour long reaction?

/I hope I don't get on a FBI watchlist going to all these nutty links
//getting paranoid

[BenBurch]

I'm kinda lame at chemistry but aren't Thermite reactions extremely fast?

How much thermite would it take to sustain a hour long reaction?

/I hope I don't get on a FBI watchlist going to all these nutty links
//getting paranoid

Yeah, they are really energetic. How energetic depends on the particle size, how it is contained and etc. After an hour you would not have any reaction going, but you still might have hot iron if there is sufficient thermite or nothing cold (like a huge beam) to rob it of heat.

[Undesired Walrus]

*shudder*

Man, what is wrong with Jones' personality?

Somebody help me out here. What is so creepy about him? Man leaves me cold.

[beachnut]

Jones is pure nuts. Started making this up 4 years after 9/11. Just made it up; now he is trying to back in the evidence by naming elements like suplfur - only tons of sulfur were used in the WTC in the wallboard used for walls and as one of the primary fire protection on the steel - 3 inches of wallboard. The rest of the elements are found even in the concrete and other articles as everyone is posting and will post.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The toasted cars are one of those things that the troofers just suspend all higher brain functions when addressing.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the toasted cars are too far from the WTC to be hit by burning debris. How then, have the troofers eliminated all of the mundane explanations for burning vehicles?

Let's say some schmuck has dropped his ciggarette butt behind his seat getting out of his car. Two minutes later, flames are eating up the drivers seat upholstery starting a chain reaction that on any other day would be stopped cold as soon as someone saw the smoke and called "911".

But on this day, more than 300 firefighters have been killed and dozens of firetrucks are buried and destroyed under 2 million tons of debris. The FDNY has suffered crippling manpower and material losses yet still has to contend with the largest disaster in NYC history.

And then someone comes up and says "Hey, there's a report of burning cars ten blocks away". What is the FDNY to do?

Burning cars are one of those things that don't need debunking because they just aren't proof of anything.

[Gravy]

Well, I stumbled on a YouTube clip of Jones nattering about his thermite theory. He makes mention of some of the elements found in WTC dust, including zinc, manganese and barium. (He did not himself find the barium. He mentions the USGS collecting it.) These things are all used in military thermite.

Zinc is also used in galvanized steel screws, electrical conduits, trash cans, desk drawer pulls, door knobs, kick plates on doors and some medications.

Manganese is also alloyed with iron to make certain high-strength steels.

Every painted surface in the building probably contained some barium oxide as a white pigment.That's been discussed here at length, and I cover his claims on this page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/stevene.jones%27thermitethermateclaims) of my WTC 7 paper (don't forget all those acres of galvanized floor plate).

He also points out the supposedly anomolous burnt vehicles and says that they were probably burned by thermite residues.Now THAT's a new one! Has he ever heard of an exotic material called paper?

Mike Athemas, a 46-year-old volunteer fireman, headed downtown once the bomb went off and didn't leave until midafternoon. "Everywhere you turned, there was someone taking bodies out of the rubble," he said. Making matters worse, documents that had been blown from the building were catching fire and igniting vehicles outside the World Trade Center. "There were 20 cars and trucks -- police cars and emergency vehicles -- on fire," said Mr. Athemas.

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2002/breaking-news-reporting/works/wsj1.html
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904720f181a8157.jpg

Absolutely amazing.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

*shudder*

Man, what is wrong with Jones' personality?

Somebody help me out here. What is so creepy about him? Man leaves me cold.

You mean aside from his claims of speaking for Jesus? (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6023596331085044923&q=Steven+Jones&total=1356&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6)

(it's at 1:06 into the video)

[chipmunk stew]

Yeah, they are really energetic. How energetic depends on the particle size, how it is contained and etc. After an hour you would not have any reaction going, but you still might have hot iron if there is sufficient thermite or nothing cold (like a huge beam) to rob it of heat.
... a Star Wars space beam, perhaps?

[Brainster]

I feel compelled to object. You may be kidding, but, everything I've heard about Jones would indicate his sincerity.

At this point I have to say that Jones is either lying or dumb, and I doubt that a PhD in physics has suddenly become dumb.

[Dog Town]

At this point I have to say that Jones is either lying or dumb, and I doubt that a PhD in physics has suddenly become dumb.

C.Rock/ "Whatever happened to just CRAZY?" //C.Rock

[Gravy]

At this point I have to say that Jones is either lying or dumb, and I doubt that a PhD in physics has suddenly become dumb.

C.Rock/ "Whatever happened to just CRAZY?" //C.RockI vote for obsessive-compulsive thermite rectal extraction with a hint of crazy.

Seriously, this idea is as batty as the space beam weapons. Jones has jumped the shark.

[MetalliSociety]

I vote for obsessive-compulsive thermite rectal extraction with a hint of crazy.

Seriously, this idea is as batty as the space beam weapons. Jones has jumped the shark.


He also says no more than a minute into that video that NIST said that the jet fuel fires were done within a few minutes. So yeah, I would agree that he is batty to say the least, and a compulsive liar.

[leftysergeant]

I'm kinda lame at chemistry but aren't Thermite reactions extremely fast?

How much thermite would it take to sustain a hour long reaction?


I once made a cast thermite charge in an 8 oz coffee cup that burned for about one minute. I'd say we are talking about a block at least the size of a diesel locamotive.

[Gravy]

He also says no more than a minute into that video that NIST said that the jet fuel fires were done within a few minutes. So yeah, I would agree that he is batty to say the least, and a compulsive liar.I didn't view the video, but if he's saying that NIST says the jet fuel was consumed within a few minutes, that would be correct. If he's misrepresenting that to imply that the fires only lasted a few minutes, then he's a lying douchebag.

[TriskettheKid]

Of course,the question I've often asked is:

How did they get the Thermite to make the claimed horizontal cuts? Was it made by the same people who made the silent high explosives?

[MetalliSociety]

I didn't view the video, but if he's saying that NIST says the jet fuel was consumed within a few minutes, that would be correct. If he's misrepresenting that to imply that the fires only lasted a few minutes, then he's a lying douchebag.

Well you wolud be the expert on the NIST report Gravy (i'm still in the process of reading it). But it seemed to me that he made it sound like with the fuel gone so were the fires, making him a lying d-bag, as you so articulatly(sp?) put it.:D

[Norseman]

In addition to the photo Gravy posted of a paper littered streets, here is a close up photo taken 1 hour and 14 minutes after the collapse of WTC 1 of burning cars in a paper littered parking lot just south of the Verizon building:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9773403@N02/922395113/
(click "All sizes" to see a high resolution versions of the picture)
The text notes:
The Vesey/West Street parking lot continues to burn. Firemen are on the scene, and water has been sprayed as indicated by the darker colored dust. Paper has burned away in the vicinity of the burned and burning vehicles.

As has been noted by other posters in this thread, the fact that this fire was allowed to develop for so long is very telling about how bad the situation had become for the NYFD. Even more chilling are all the fire trucks parked around that fire, whose original crews are never going to return or are preoccupied with saving their missing comrades. As should be evident from this photo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9773403@N02/922395703/), some of those trucks are damaged or destroyed by debris from WTC 1 since this is at the edge of the debris field from WTC 1. All that was need was a piece of burning/glowing debris from WTC 1 crashing through the windshield of one car, or igniting paper around one of the cars. And this was at the edge of the debris field.

Yes Lefty, this is a part of the feud Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice versus Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Judy Wood versus reality. The photos have been uploaded by Gregory Jenkins in connection with some papers he as written debunking Judy Wood. Here is a quote from Gregory Jenkins paper The Overwhelming Implausibility of Using Directed Energy Beams to Demolish the World Trade Center Towers (http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200702/Implausibility-Directed-Energy-Beam-Demolish-WTC-by-Gregory-Jenkins.pdf):

Charred Vehicles
Explosives or thermate can reach temperatures above the melting point of steel. Localized hot spots after and during the collapse, could account for the burning of some cars and other material in the area. Furthermore, debris impacting vehicles can smash gas tanks and oil pans releasing highly combustible fluids in the vicinity of other vehicles.
Any sufficient heat or spark can ignite the flammable fluids such as burning paper or hot metal (a photograph of a ‘localized hot). Adjacent vehicles may be scorched by flames from burning vehicles by varying amounts and burn patterns (see pictures of the police car at ground zero), or may even ignite themselves (see video of K-Mart parking lot fire). Directed energy beams are not needed to explain burning cars and trucks. Evidence suggests that the charred cars that were located on FDR drive were
towed to that location from the vicinity of ground zero.

He gives all the sensible reasons for why those cars caught fire, but need to propose some thermate nonsense even though, amazing.

Another thing that amazes me, is that it has not occurred to a lot of truhters that the burned out/ crushed cars photographed under the bridge is not parked in their original position. In fact they have been moved there from the collapse area for temporary storage before permanent disposal.

They have a photo gallery of burning cars, burned cars, crushed cars, burning paper etc here:
http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=19&page=1

Norseman
-----------------------------
Annex:
Additional photos of the fires development:
This is an aerial of the parking lot before the collapse of WTC 1. The parking lot is behind the low building in the lower left corner of the photo, within reach of burning debris from the WTC 1 when it collapsed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9773403@N02/922369471/

Here a picture of the parking lot at the moment of WTC 1's collapse, no fire in the parking lot yet:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9773403@N02/922373051/

Here is a picture about 16 minutes after the collapse of WTC 1, the text notes that 1 or 2 cars are burning, looks right:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9773403@N02/922384951/

[Norseman]

Since we are discussing Steven Jones and his thermate nonsense. Here are a two photos of solidified aluminum flows after real life fires that I found recently.

A recent photograph from the site of an aircraft that crashed in Colorado in 1970:
At one point I walked past liquid aluminum streaming down the mountain from the intense heat of the fire." - Ken Abrahamson

In this second photo by Greg Records you can see one of the landing gears pinned beneath a tree as well as melted aluminum streaming down the hill.
http://www.super70s.com/super70s/Tech/Aviation/Disasters/70-10-02(Martin404).asp
(At the bottom of the page)

Example of car caught in a forest fire:
The attached photograph is a good example of the behaviour of aluminium in the massive form in a fire. A car, with aluminium alloy wheels, was caught in a forest fire that swept over the car and moved on. Afterwards it was found that the aluminium wheels had melted, molten aluminium had run off and collected in a pool of metal which solidified as the fire moved on and the temperature fell. The aluminium had not burnt.
http://www.alfed.org.uk/templates/alfed/content.asp?PageId=111
(Scroll on the page)

The paper also dispels some other myths about aluminum in fire.

Norseman

[westprog]

It's really not possible, not if they're talking about the pictures of the cars I've seen.

Thermite would have burned a hole or holes clear through the car, not ignited (and melted) the car


Exactly so. The only way I can think of where this might not happen is if a sufficiently small bit of thermite might have burned through to the fuel tank. But that's both unlikely and unnecessary - any burning debris could do the same thing.

Just because someone tries to come up with a story of dubious plausability to support their theory doesn't mean that their magic thermite dust can automagically become the panacea for things that don't fit neatly into their conspiracy box.

It's amazing just how bad a scientist Jones is. He should be examining all the possibilities about what we cause any given phenomoenon. Instead, he just assumes his dumb thermite theory as the solution to every event.

[BenBurch]

... a Star Wars space beam, perhaps?

I meant one of steel... :boggled:

[BenBurch]

I once made a cast thermite charge in an 8 oz coffee cup that burned for about one minute. I'd say we are talking about a block at least the size of a diesel locamotive.

No, remember it is self-oxidizing and exothermic, so a chunk ten times the mass of a reference chunk might only take twice as long to react. I'm not sure if there is any good way to add an inhibitor.

[leftysergeant]

The shape of a cast charge will, to some extent, modify the length of time that it will burn. Juggling the proportion of calcium sulphate to aluminum can change the rate as well, but there is a poiojnt at which it will not sustain itself.

BTW, any thermite used in demolitions of this scale would have to be a cast charge composed of ferrous oxide, aluminum and calcium sulphate with some sort of refactory coating or shell. They would have to be numerous just to do a job on the scale seen, and they would have to be enormous to be able to retain any heat all the way to the street level.

Now try hiding a couple dozen Buicks inside the walls on an occupied floor of an office building.

[chipmunk stew]

I meant one of steel... :boggled:
Yes, but in a thread about Steven Jones and Judy Wood, the temptation was irresistible. :)