"The Lost Book Of Nostradamus"

[dudalb]

This premiers on the History Channel Sunday Night and it looks as though more woo is on it way.If it is anything like the other History Channel shows on Nostradamus,it will be heavily pro Nostadamus.
Well,that get ratings,I guess.
What frustrates me is that THC can do something as good as their special which debunked 9/11 Conspiracy theories,and then lose whatever credibility they gained with crap like this.
I like the way these kind of shows have the "token skeptic": one or two non beleivers in Nostradamus,and then a dozen or so beleivers,and then claim they are a "balanced" show.
And other "documentary" networks "The Discovery Channel",etc are no better.

[Apology]

This premiers on the History Channel Sunday Night and it looks as though more woo is on it way.If it is anything like the other History Channel shows on Nostradamus,it will be heavily pro Nostadamus.
Well,that get ratings,I guess.
What frustrates me is that THC can do something as good as their special which debunked 9/11 Conspiracy theories,and then lose whatever credibility they gained with crap like this.
I like the way these kind of shows have the "token skeptic":one or two non beleivers in Nostradamus,and then a dozen or so beleivers,and then claim they are a "balanced" show.
And other "documentary" networks "The Discovery Channel",etc are no better.

There's a lost book? This sounds both interesting and duller than dust at the same time.

At one point in time I had fun getting older versions of Nostradamus and comparing the interpretations of the quatrains to the newer versions. Apparently there was supposed to be a great war around 1998---the coming of the apocalypse even. Also, certain quatrains were interpreted to be the first World Trade Center attack in 1993; of course, after the 2001 attack, the interpretations for the exact same quatrains were edited again to indicate that the 2001 attack was the the attack that Nostradamus mentioned. The part of the quatrain that made people think it had something to do with the World Trade Center? It referred to an apocalyptic attack on the "New City". Has to be New York, right? :rolleyes:

[Tirdun]

They always seem to use the same cast of supporters, I wonder if [H] will trot them out again.

I might tune in long enough to find out where this book has been hiding. It's not like we don't have enough vague predictions from old Nostra.

[Apology]

They always seem to use the same cast of supporters, I wonder if [H] will trot them out again.

I might tune in long enough to find out where this book has been hiding. It's not like we don't have enough vague predictions from old Nostra.

Well these must be Nostradamus' "good" predictions, which is why he hid them in another book. Or something.

[Ersby]

I used to be fascinated by Nostradamus. First, when I believed in all this stuff, and then again when I was a skeptic I was amazed how his "specific" predictions could change over time, according to recent events.

Like, Apology mentioned the quatrain that mentions the "new city" - before 9/11 that was linked to the airplane that exploded mid-air near NY some years ago (sorry, off the top of my I don't remember any details) and before then it was linked to the incident at Three Mile Island.

If you get a chance to buy a second hand copy of Nosty's work from even ten years ago, do so.

[Denver]

They always seem to use the same cast of supporters, I wonder if [H] will trot them out again.

I might tune in long enough to find out where this book has been hiding. It's not like we don't have enough vague predictions from old Nostra.

From the History channel's web site:

In 1994, Italian journalist Enza Massa was at the Italian National Library in Rome when she stumbled upon an unusual find. It was a manuscript dating to 1629, titled: Nostradamus Vatinicia Code. Michel de Notredame, the author's name, was on the inside in indelible ink. The book contains cryptic and bizarre images along with over eighty watercolor paintings by the master visionary himself. Follow the investigative trail of how the manuscript was found in the archives and exactly how it got there. New insight is given into the life of Nostradamus and his relationship with Pope Urban VIII, who knew about this manuscript and in whose possession it was for many years.

[dudalb]

So they actually might have some new Woo from Nosty.
If they were to present an objective fact based approach this might be of some value,but they will trot out the usual suspects of True Beleivers,with one of two token skeptics.

[slingblade]

What's the history of "indelible ink?" Did such exist at the time? What's meant by "indelible?" Does that refer to ink that was created to be indelible, or is it an apellation we would give after the fact to any kind of ink, provided it has lasted for centuries and is still legible?

It was the first word in the blurb that caught my eye as possibly providing an inconsistency, and struck me as an odd emphasis, hence my questions.

[ShowerComic]

There's a lost book? This sounds both interesting and duller than dust at the same time.

As I recall, wasn't the 9/11 Twin-Towers prophesy of Nostradamous a known fake quatrain ?

At one point in time I had fun getting older versions of Nostradamus and comparing the interpretations of the quatrains to the newer versions. Apparently there was supposed to be a great war around 1998---the coming of the apocalypse even.

I remember being in the lunch room, in high school sometime in the early 80's, when according to some ancient prediction the world was supposed to end. -- i.e @ 12:37 PM EST that day, and counting down to the second. - And everyone jokingly going oh well, we're still here.

By the way, regarding the End Of the World - a list of failed prophesies can be found here.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl1.htm

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What's the history of "indelible ink?" Did such exist at the time? What's meant by "indelible?" Does that refer to ink that was created to be indelible, or is it an apellation we would give after the fact to any kind of ink, provided it has lasted for centuries and is still legible?

It was the first word in the blurb that caught my eye as possibly providing an inconsistency, and struck me as an odd emphasis, hence my questions.

I wondered about the "indelible ink" phrase myself. Why mention it at all? Maybe this is supposed to prove that Slyvia Browne could not erase it in a later century and claim authorship? :boggled:

[slingblade]

I wondered about the "indelible ink" phrase myself. Why mention it at all? Maybe this is supposed to prove that Slyvia Browne could not erase it in a later century and claim authorship? :boggled:


That's what I was wondering: "Oh, of course it's authentic--this is indelible ink!"

And it could be. But it set off my woometer, a bit.

[RecoveringYuppy]

This 1981 documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081109/) claimed New York would be destroyed in th 1990s by atomic weapons by an alliance of the Soviet Union with Arabs. Of course, the Soviet Union was gone shortly after 1981 and 9/11 would have been impossible if NY no longer existed.

[fuelair]

This premiers on the History Channel Sunday Night and it looks as though more woo is on it way.If it is anything like the other History Channel shows on Nostradamus,it will be heavily pro Nostadamus.
Well,that get ratings,I guess.
What frustrates me is that THC can do something as good as their special which debunked 9/11 Conspiracy theories,and then lose whatever credibility they gained with crap like this.
I like the way these kind of shows have the "token skeptic": one or two non beleivers in Nostradamus,and then a dozen or so beleivers,and then claim they are a "balanced" show.
And other "documentary" networks "The Discovery Channel",etc are no better.
And, after several years of that kind of sludge on those two theoretical beacons of learning and education, you are surprised???!!!

[Apology]

As I recall, wasn't the 9/11 Twin-Towers prophesy of Nostradamous a known fake quatrain ? I don't know, I just know they keep reworking the interpretation of the "New City" quatrain to fit the circumstances. It's a pretty typical meaningless Nostradamus quatrain and I find it entirely unconvincing as a prediction for either WTC bombing:


Earthshaking fire from the center of the earth will cause tremors around the New City. Two great rocks will war for a long time, then Arethusa will redden a new river.

My copy says "New City" is New York because "Arethusa" is a cross between "Ares", the God of War, and "USA" :rolleyes: Of course the two great rocks that are warring are the twin towers, and Nostradamus didn't know how to describe our modern skyscrapers because he was from the 1500's even though he knew enough to make a clever anagram involving "USA" :rolleyes::rolleyes: It also bears pointing out that the earthshaking fire seems to have come from the sky, not the center of the earth, in the case of the 9/11 attack.

Now if you're saying somebody proved that a bunch of the previously known quatrains weren't really written by Nostradamus, then that's information I haven't heard before.


I remember being in the lunch room, in high school sometime in the early 80's, when according to some ancient prediction the world was supposed to end. -- i.e @ 12:37 PM EST that day, and counting down to the second. - And everyone jokingly going oh well, we're still here.

By the way, regarding the End Of the World - a list of failed prophesies can be found here.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl1.htm

Hahaha, I remember that too, but I was in Junior High and had forgotten why or how the world was supposed to end. Was the world supposed to explode or something? I just remember thinking it was dumb.

[Aepervius]

As I recall, wasn't the 9/11 Twin-Towers prophesy of Nostradamous a known fake quatrain ?



I remember being in the lunch room, in high school sometime in the early 80's, when according to some ancient prediction the world was supposed to end. -- i.e @ 12:37 PM EST that day, and counting down to the second. - And everyone jokingly going oh well, we're still here.

By the way, regarding the End Of the World - a list of failed prophesies can be found here.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl1.htm

15 is a bit short on the sauce.

How about a few hundreds ?

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

[ConspiRaider]

Here is a sneak preview of The Ugliness:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/871299/lost_book_of_nostradamus_on_the_history_channel_2_ min_sneak_pea/

When the woo History Channel does a 2-hour special on James Randi's book, The Mask of Nostradamus: That's when you know the corner has been turned on woo. For some reason I won't be holding my breath until that happens.

[Kilik]

yeah goddamn those corporate woos, doing anything for a buck

[DRBUZZ0]

I just saw an ad for a show coming on the history channel tomorrow called :The lost book of nostrodamus" and they say that "he saved the biggest predictions for last"

I'm waiting for a chuckle on this, but I did a google search and some are taking this seriously because apparently the documentary will make passages public which had not before been published.

I've heard the bull before about his writings being cryptic because he saw the future but tried to describe it using terms which he understood. I'm looking forward to a chuckle on this one because as I've mentioned before I do not know him ever saying anything like "There's a german guy... really angry type.. yelling a lot with a small square mustasch and a pin-wheel like thingy on his arm and everyone extends their right arm at him"

or for that matter "people are all traveling in carts which have no apparent means of being propelled and have some mechanism which is located under a removable panel on the front. They are controled by turning a wheel. Also people seem to talk frequently into some sort of device which makes sounds and illuminates and periodically."

nope... if he had tried he could describe it... but he wrote cryptic quatrains because he was making it all up...

[Kilik]

I think he gave some specific dates at times

This thread has the same title as the other one though.......

[Skeptic Ginger]

Until the mods combine the threads (if need be) here is a link to the other thread. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=97037)

[Skeptic Ginger]

On that show which used to investigate the location of historical relics people would request be found, I sent in asking them to find the medallion that was supposedly found in Nostradamus' coffin with the date (or year) on it the grave robbers dug up the grave. I never heard back. :)

I guess it was a "plaque" rather than a medallion and it either said 1700, 1791 or 1793 depending on which version of the myth you prefer. The Straight Dope has one of the few skeptical discussions of the myth. (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mnostradamus.html) There are countless versions of the story on web sites and in books without even so much as a curious question of where the evidence is for the story and curiosity as to the location of the plaque. If there was such a plaque why isn't it famous with its location known? But more importantly, why isn't anyone who hears or repeats the story wondering where the plaque is or even what historical record is there of the event?

[DRBUZZ0]

This premiers on the History Channel Sunday Night and it looks as though more woo is on it way.If it is anything like the other History Channel shows on Nostradamus,it will be heavily pro Nostadamus.
Well,that get ratings,I guess.
What frustrates me is that THC can do something as good as their special which debunked 9/11 Conspiracy theories,and then lose whatever credibility they gained with crap like this.
I like the way these kind of shows have the "token skeptic": one or two non beleivers in Nostradamus,and then a dozen or so beleivers,and then claim they are a "balanced" show.
And other "documentary" networks "The Discovery Channel",etc are no better.

Well, networks are driven by ratings - this has been brought up before. However I don't think that precludes them from not pushing such BS. It's supply and demand. Hence, you and I as the consumer do the demanding and they will supply. Obviously I no one person represents the whole public, but enough combined...

In any case, the only way you can really "demand" from a TV network is to call or write an e-mail. Unless you're a Neilson family you dont *directly* count, hence: I have been known to contact them in the past.

I doubt I make much difference, but if everyone here did it might...

[sophia8]

Wikipedia has a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus_Vaticinia) on this "lost" manuscript:A library card, filled out by Carthusian [2] fathers, that was attached to the manuscript states that the images belonged to the French seer Nostradamus[3] (1503-1566).
Those images look remarkably fresh for 500-year old watercolours. And ya gotta believe Carthusian monks - would they deliberately write a lie, on a library card?

[brodski]

I've merged these two threads, and added some tags.

[DRBUZZ0]

Wikipedia has a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus_Vaticinia) on this "lost" manuscript:
Those images look remarkably fresh for 500-year old watercolours. And ya gotta believe Carthusian monks - would they deliberately write a lie, on a library card?

Of course they look new. They were probably painted with long-lasting non degrading paints and material. Things like titanium dioxide bases and synthetic pigments and such. Obviously this is proof that he could see into the future, because that is where he got the formulas for them from.

See... you can turn anything into proof once you're willing to think outside the box and think stupid. People don't realize how liberating it can be idea wise when you start focusing on stupid, then the ideas just start flowing...

[sophia8]

As I recall, wasn't the 9/11 Twin-Towers prophesy of Nostradamous a known fake quatrain ?Yes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/nostradamus.asp)

[Apology]

Yes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/nostradamus.asp)

WOW I hadn't heard anything about this; I always saw the "New City" quatrain that I posted earlier used to mean 9/11 and never saw this entirely made-up quatrain. Thank you for posting this!

[charlie1]

I think this new book is supposed to say he predicts the end of the world in 2012-the same as the Mayan calendar, I think?

[Skeptic Ginger]

There are a few pages posted on Amazon from a book written about this book.

Nostradamus, The Lost Manuscript (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0892819154/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-3173230-7259932#reader-link)

It was published in 1998. Apparently this isn't so 'new' after all.

[Skeptic Ginger]

WOW I hadn't heard anything about this; I always saw the "New City" quatrain that I posted earlier used to mean 9/11 and never saw this entirely made-up quatrain. Thank you for posting this!The following is a useful site for checking incredible claims:

NOSTRADAMUS SEARCH ENGINE (http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/search/)

If a prediction sounds too accurate to be true, it probably isn't.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think this new book is supposed to say he predicts the end of the world in 2012-the same as the Mayan calendar, I think?Trying to start a new urban legend are you? ;)

Welcome to the forum. :D

[technoextreme]

Like, Apology mentioned the quatrain that mentions the "new city" - before 9/11 that was linked to the airplane that exploded mid-air near NY some years ago (sorry, off the top of my I don't remember any details) and before then it was linked to the incident at Three Mile Island.
TWA flight 800.

[DRBUZZ0]

I think this new book is supposed to say he predicts the end of the world in 2012-the same as the Mayan calendar, I think?

OH CRAP! I knew I shouldn't have sold all the stuff I had accumulated in my bunker after Y2K turned out to be a bust!

Looks like I have to start stocking up again...

[Apology]

The following is a useful site for checking incredible claims:

NOSTRADAMUS SEARCH ENGINE (http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/search/)

If a prediction sounds too accurate to be true, it probably isn't.

Yah true, if I had seen the "metal bird" quote before I would have known instantly that Nostradamus didn't write it because it's much too specific :D

[Starthinker]

I'm watching this now. Like they didn't have towers that caught fire in the 1500's. A single burning stone tower that looks like 3 storeys tall is supposed to be the Twin Towers? What a stretch.

[Gryphus-1]

I'm watching this now. Like they didn't have towers that caught fire in the 1500's. A single burning stone tower that looks like 3 storeys tall is supposed to be the Twin Towers? What a stretch.

Not to mention the fact for it to truly be an illustration representing 9/11 there should be two towers.

[Skeptical Greg]

.....

If a prediction sounds too accurate to be true, it probably isn't.

O.K., I've got to chew on that a while..

It may be sig material if someone else doesn't grab it first ...

[Denver]

I think this new book is supposed to say he predicts the end of the world in 2012-the same as the Mayan calendar, I think?

You called it.

The guy at the end of the program was showing how that is just what one of the new pictures says.

[Starthinker]

Okay, I took a soak in the tub so missed a chunk of the middle, but now they are saying it's proven it wasn't even his writing. But, they also say it's still him and it's just a handwritten copy. And omg, they just threw out the 2012 of being the end of mankind. There is too much wrong here to even go into. They are stretching so much it's not even funny. Sad part is, the masses will eat this stuff up.

ETA: Denver beat me by a minute!

[hipparchia]

Salon (http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/iltw/2007/10/28/pushing_daisies/) has a story on the prophecies. Five years and counting.

[Jimcalagon]

You can find any number of 'lost' prophecies by Nostradamus on this site... www . timmcnulty.iofm.net/nostradamus.htm ;)

[dudalb]

And, after several years of that kind of sludge on those two theoretical beacons of learning and education, you are surprised???!!!

Surprised,No.
Still dissapointed and angry,yes.
What disturbs me is the good programing they have on helps to lend creditbility to the crap they have on.
BTW the New Nostry Special was about as I "predicted": more of the same.
And apparently the providence of the "New" Nostry documents is very,very,questionable.

[Gryphus-1]

Have any of you been to this History Channel's web page? They have this mini video on the Nostradamus section, and now the NostraNuts are saying that Century X quatrain 72 is the 9/11 prediction, They are also now claiming that Nostradamus' work is hidden with Numerology codes as well. The Century X quatrain 72 verse is the 1999 prophecy:

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

The Link for the mini video can be found here:


http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=mini_home&mini_id=56121

[dudalb]

Have any of you been to this History Channel's web page? They have this mini video on the Nostradamus section, and now the NostraNuts are saying that Century X quatrain 72 is the 9/11 prediction, They are also now claiming that Nostradamus' work is hidden with Numerology codes as well. The Century X quatrain 72 verse is the 1999 prophecy:

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

The Link for the mini video can be found here:


http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=mini_home&mini_id=56121

You can find some kind of numerology code to make any book you care to mention say anything you care to make it say.

[Lensman]

One crackpot worked out that the date represented by, "The year 1999, seventh month", equals September 11, 2001 :eye-poppi :boggled: - go figure THAT one out! :confused:

[Gryphus-1]

Let me make it clear. In the video the woman says that the words, Century X Q. 72 breaks down to 911 because she said:

"X in roman numerals = 10 and thats 1, so 11" and then she says "7+2=9 therefore 9-11"

My question is, How does she jump from 10 to 11? she doesn't say 10+1 is 11 she said x=10 and thats 1 so eleven?

[Lensman]

That's not how this so-called expert worked it out, he said that Nossy woukld've been using the Julian calendar instead of the "newer" Gregorian calendar, the Julian calendar had September as the seventh month (his words not mine) & that 1999 was a "numeric anagram" of 2001.

I thought that September stopped being the seventh month after Julius Caesar & Caesar Augustus were honoured by having new months named after them (July for Julius & August for Augustus), which was a LOOOOOOOng time before the Gregorian calendar was developed, therefore Nossy would have still thought of September as being the ninth month & july as being the seventh month - even if he was using the Julian calendar.

[Apology]

I had someone tape it for me and watched part of it today. I intended to watch the whole thing but it was so patently obvious that it was not written or drawn by Nostradamus that I gave up on it quickly. I've had occasion to handle many old, handwritten documents as a part of my profession, and I can tell you from experience that there is simply no way that the ink in the book would have remained anywhere near that black over the term of 500 years. I have seen many records that were a mere 100 years old that had fade into sepia tones and near illegibility. The best preserved ink had faded to a very dark gray that was still easily distinguished from black.

Also, there is no way that the tints in the watercolor would have stayed true as well. Watercolors are only good for about 50 years even if you buy professional quality paints. Any length of time we get them to last past 50 years or so is due to good preservation and care, which this book would not have gotten if it had been misplaced by the Vatican Library and kept in the public library as the show claims. I also noted that the ink used on the outlines in the drawings was that same unconvincing coal black.

An utterly shameless fraud.

[Starthinker]

I had someone tape it for me and watched part of it today. I intended to watch the whole thing but it was so patently obvious that it was not written or drawn by Nostradamus that I gave up on it quickly. I've had occasion to handle many old, handwritten documents as a part of my profession, and I can tell you from experience that there is simply no way that the ink in the book would have remained anywhere near that black over the term of 500 years. I have seen many records that were a mere 100 years old that had fade into sepia tones and near illegibility. The best preserved ink had faded to a very dark gray that was still easily distinguished from black.

Also, there is no way that the tints in the watercolor would have stayed true as well. Watercolors are only good for about 50 years even if you buy professional quality paints. Any length of time we get them to last past 50 years or so is due to good preservation and care, which this book would not have gotten if it had been misplaced by the Vatican Library and kept in the public library as the show claims. I also noted that the ink used on the outlines in the drawings was that same unconvincing coal black.

An utterly shameless fraud.

Were they claiming those were the actual drawings? With the 3-d effect they kept displaying I thought we were seeing replicated drawings, not the actual documents. Even I, a novice, thought there was no way those drawings were that old.

[slingblade]

Let me make it clear. In the video the woman says that the words, Century X Q. 72 breaks down to 911 because she said:

"X in roman numerals = 10 and thats 1, so 11" and then she says "7+2=9 therefore 9-11"

My question is, How does she jump from 10 to 11? she doesn't say 10+1 is 11 she said x=10 and thats 1 so eleven?

I dunno, not having seen what you did, but if she's using numerology, she's doing it wrong. Classic numerology doesn't use 2-digit numbers; all numbers can be reduced to a single digit, 1-9, by adding them together.

One placed I looked this up said there was a number 10 used, but from what I've always heard, 10 simply reduces to 1, and 11 reduces to 2. However, there are variants, and I am certainly no expert.

Heh, IOW, I have no idea how she got 11, because even woo says she should have gotten a 1 or at the most, a 2.

[Apology]

Were they claiming those were the actual drawings? With the 3-d effect they kept displaying I thought we were seeing replicated drawings, not the actual documents. Even I, a novice, thought there was no way those drawings were that old.

I had the impression that they were showing the actual book but I admit that I didn't watch it long enough to determine if they were showing the original or a duplicate copy of the book. The library log sheet was clearly still bound into the original book and in my personal opinion the line regarding the Nostradamus book was significantly blacker than the other entries around it, and looked as if it had been cramped into the available space between two previously existing entries. Spacing is something that one looks for when examining modern signatures for forgery, and something like that sticks out. One would assume that in order to darken the lines in duplication that there would be a resulting reduction in the contrast, causing graying of other parts of the document that is seen when light copies are duplicated at the darkest setting in order to attempt to clarify the print.

I would like to add that I wasn't a document expert, but rather the first person to handle some of the signatures. If I found a questionable signature I would send it to a higher authority for a determination as to whether or not it was fraudulent. Oftentimes my red flags were remedied by having the person sign in front of a notary at the office to show that their handwriting had changed over time, or that their hand jiggled or something when they signed the document I questioned (sometimes people get very nervous and it makes their writing shaky). The very old documents that I was handling were not under any sort of suspicion of forgery either, so I did not examine or question their veracity.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm watching this now. Like they didn't have towers that caught fire in the 1500's. A single burning stone tower that looks like 3 storeys tall is supposed to be the Twin Towers? What a stretch.Did you notice the burning tower is from a Tarot card? It isn't one of the drawings in the manuscript.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g269/Love888mike/RWtower.jpg

http://www.kimspages.org/thetower.jpg

[Skeptic Ginger]

The manuscript was copied from an earlier manuscript. That was about as far as the science went.

The entire program was really poorly done. Every speculation was stated as if it was a fact. That is shameful infotainment. I was disappointed. Sometimes they have better programs that still entertain but at least make an attempt to show the actual evidence and separate out and identify the speculation. This program made no such effort.