Can I melt my pennies and make money at this?

[Iamme]

Someone said salvaged copper is now paying $3-4 a pound. Well? Wouldn't 300 pennies be more than a pound?

[LibraryLady]

Except that pennies are now made out of zinc with a thin copper coating. :(

[ohp]

UK coins switched to Steel coins with a copper coating about 10 years back.

Apparently it;s a real problem in India, not with copper, but with whatever rupee coins are made from, being worth at least 20% more than the face value.

[technoextreme]

Except that pennies are now made out of zinc with a thin copper coating. :(
Technically it doesn't matter. The metal in a penny was worth more than a penny a few monthes ago. So the op has the right idea except for the fact that it's illegal.

[LibraryLady]

Technically it doesn't matter. The metal in a penny was worth more than a penny a few monthes ago. So the op has the right idea except for the fact that it's illegal.

Picky, picky, picky.

[Iamme]

Technically it doesn't matter. The metal in a penny was worth more than a penny a few monthes ago. So the op has the right idea except for the fact that it's illegal.

You mean as in...the crooks can smelt it down, but not me? :)

What about Canadien pennies?; are these zinc mostly also?

[The Man]

You mean as in...the crooks can smelt it down, but not me? :)

What about Canadien pennies?; are these zinc mostly also?

Mostly steel (94% steel, 1.5% nickel, 4.5% copper plating)
http://www.finishing.com/199/91.shtml

Anyway, I’d bet Canadian zinc is only worth 97% of American zinc.

[ChristineR]

Why is it illegal? According to those penny-crushing machines, it's legal. Oh, and you just sort your pennies by date to get the proper content.

[bruto]

I'm not aware of its being illegal to melt down a penny or any other coin, as long as you don't try to make another coin out of it. Just as it's really not illegal to put a penny on the train tracks. Back when I was a kid, there was a fad for making rings out of 50 cent pieces. Drill a hole, pound it out on a mandrel. Voila. A silver ring for your girl friend. Of course laminated coins killed that.

Iamme's question was more relevant back in the 70's for a while when pennies were still made of copper and the prices went high. There was a penny shortage for a while as people hoarded bags of them for their metal content.

I don't know how they're going to manage to make them any cheaper than they are now. What's next? Plastic pennies?

[Z]

I don't know how they're going to manage to make them any cheaper than they are now. What's next? Plastic pennies?

Don't laugh - it's been proposed. Though apparently not too seriously. I think the only alternative materials coin proposal that's gotten far with the gov't was the idea of making coins out of plexi or similar material, with thin slivers of actual metal inside.

[lionking]

When 50 cent coins first came out in Australia in 1966, they were made of silver and it wasn't long before the silver was worth more than the 50 cents. They were withdrawn soon after and replaced with an alloy, but the original 50 cent is worth about $10.

[UnrepentantSinner]

It's been illegal since 2006 to melt them down or export large numbers of them.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2725597

When 50 cent coins first came out in Australia in 1966, they were made of silver and it wasn't long before the silver was worth more than the 50 cents. They were withdrawn soon after and replaced with an alloy, but the original 50 cent is worth about $10.

There's a numismatic legend here in the U.S. about a handful of 1964 Peace Dollars which escaped being melted down by the mint when the spot price for 9/10oz. of silver went above $1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Dollar

[Wildy]

When 50 cent coins first came out in Australia in 1966, they were made of silver and it wasn't long before the silver was worth more than the 50 cents. They were withdrawn soon after and replaced with an alloy, but the original 50 cent is worth about $10.

Smeg. You beat me to it.

[bruto]

It's been illegal since 2006 to melt them down or export large numbers of them.


Yikes. I stand corrected! Guess I'll have to cancel the order for the mini-smelter!

I'm glad they didn't make it illegal to put a penny on the tracks, though.

[Bikewer]

The general rise in metal prices (notably copper) has spawned a resurgence of metal theft.

We just arrested two career criminals who were busily looting one of the construction sites on campus, while a football game was being played at the adjacent field!

Almost anything is fair game; thieves have cut down miles of power and data cables, copper wiring, guttering, and even the innards from air-conditioning units.
Apparently, it's the economic boom in China that's driving this; their manufacturing sector is copper-hungry.

[bruto]

The general rise in metal prices (notably copper) has spawned a resurgence of metal theft.

We just arrested two career criminals who were busily looting one of the construction sites on campus, while a football game was being played at the adjacent field!

Almost anything is fair game; thieves have cut down miles of power and data cables, copper wiring, guttering, and even the innards from air-conditioning units.
Apparently, it's the economic boom in China that's driving this; their manufacturing sector is copper-hungry.

There's also been a rash of attempts at stealing copper ground wires from power substations, a good way, it seems, to thin the herd.

Funny thing is that while some people are sawing each other's water pipes out and frying themselves on the grid, you can still go to yard sales and buy trunkloads of copper and brass gewgaws, gimcracks and tchotchkes for pennies a pound.

[Madalch]

Canadian pennies were pure copper until 1997-ish. Now they, like the American ones, are mostly zinc with a thin coating of copper. Which means they no longer work so well for the copper->silver->gold demonstration.

Canadian dimes and quarters used to be pure silver until 1967-8. When I was a child and collected coins, I always wondered why I could find pennies and nickels back to the 1940s, but I never saw a dime or quarter older than 1968. That's why.

[Cuddles]

The obvious solution is to stop making pennies at all. We stopped having half pennies because inflation made them worth so little that there was no point having them any more. Now the time has come to get rid of pennies as well. When was the last time anyone actually saw anything worth a penny? The only thing they are ever used for is as change for something priced at x.99. Just get rid of anything smaller than 5p and let the shops make do with selling things for x.95 instead.

When it comes down to it, using metal as money is pretty much obsolete anyway. There are very few places I can't use a card. There may be issues with fraud and identity theft, but since cash is completely untraceable it's far more open to fraud anyway.

[ohp]

When it comes down to it, using metal as money is pretty much obsolete anyway. There are very few places I can't use a card. There may be issues with fraud and identity theft, but since cash is completely untraceable it's far more open to fraud anyway.

What happens when you hand over your card to pay for a chocolate bar? ;-)

[Z]

What happens when you hand over your card to pay for a chocolate bar? ;-)

What do you mean? I've done that regularly. In fact, just this morning, I used my card to pay for a chocolate milk - I think it was all of $1.19. I've even bought a single postage stamp with my card.

[Diagoras]

Anyway, I’d bet Canadian zinc is only worth 97% of American zinc.
Actually, Canadian currency is worth a little bit more than our American currency now.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi?Amount=1&From=CAD&To=USD

[ImaginalDisc]

Can't we just abolish pennies and be done with it?

[ohp]

What do you mean? I've done that regularly. In fact, just this morning, I used my card to pay for a chocolate milk - I think it was all of $1.19. I've even bought a single postage stamp with my card.

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

[JonnyFive]

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

Some stores around here (NYC) won't accept cards for amounts under, say, $5 (USD), sometimes $10. But due to the proliferation of debit/check cards issued by banks, a lot of retailers will accept them for any trivial amount of money. I've paid for items worth only a couple bucks with my card, and it takes about the same amount of time that it would to give cash and get change.

[Z]

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

Wow. That's unthinkable here. In fact, there's an entire campaign going (by Discover, I think) playing on the idea that paying for things in cash, check, etc. is archaic, obsolete, and downright slow.

We don't even have to sign a receipt if the amount is under $25, in many stores. And our grocery stores are starting even more rapid transaction systems, including paying by thumbprint or by waving the card across a scanner, rather than running it through the strip reader.

[Z]

Some stores around here (NYC) won't accept cards for amounts under, say, $5 (USD), sometimes $10. But due to the proliferation of debit/check cards issued by banks, a lot of retailers will accept them for any trivial amount of money. I've paid for items worth only a couple bucks with my card, and it takes about the same amount of time that it would to give cash and get change.

Are those smaller stores? Even the mom-pop stores in Cinci take cards for any amount at all. The only exception I've seen recently was the CiCi's Pizza, which only accepts debit/ATM cards, not credit cards.

[HarryKeogh]

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

I can't speak for your neck of the woods but here a retailer is required by the credit card company to accept cards for any purchase no matter how small. Often times they'll be a sign that says $10 minimum (or whatever amount) but they are violating their TOS with the card company. In my Amex bill there will sometimes be a questionnaire asking if I ran into any problems getting my card accepted by a merchant for that very reason and if so to please provide the merchant's name and address.

[JonnyFive]

Are those smaller stores? Even the mom-pop stores in Cinci take cards for any amount at all. The only exception I've seen recently was the CiCi's Pizza, which only accepts debit/ATM cards, not credit cards.

Actually, the ones with limits I've seen are smaller grocery stores/delis and a few of the seedy 99 cent store places.

By and large they'll accept at least debit cards for almost everything.

[Bethany]

When I worked at an antique shop, whenever the price of silver went up, people would come in and check out the coins and other silver paraphernalia before the antique dealers had a chance to reprice their stuff. Sometimes they'd even weigh stuff before buying it, so people definitely make money melting silver down. It's too bad that wouldn't work for pennies.

[JonnyFive]

I can't speak for your neck of the woods but here a retailer is required by the credit card company to accept cards for any purchase no matter how small. Often times they'll be a sign that says $10 minimum (or whatever amount) but they are violating their TOS with the card company. In my Amex bill there will sometimes be a questionnaire asking if I ran into any problems getting my card accepted by a merchant for that very reason and if so to please provide the merchant's name and address.

Hmm... very interesting. I'll have to look into this.

Right after I finish melting down my pennies, that is.

Er... I mean not melting down my pennies. What pennies?

[roger]

I'm disappointed in this thread ... I was sure it would have prompted a Can I belt my penis and make money at this parody thread by now. :(

[Modified]

Can't we just abolish pennies and be done with it?

Sure, the nickel is worth far less now than the penny was when it became the smallest denomination minted. It's hard to get rid of the thing that's worth "one" though.

[dannagain]

Yikes. I stand corrected! Guess I'll have to cancel the order for the mini-smelter!

I'm glad they didn't make it illegal to put a penny on the tracks, though.


It is illegal in Japan

[BenBurch]

It is illegal in Japan

High speed trains and pennies on the rail are not likely a good mix.

[politas]

Can't we just abolish pennies and be done with it?
We did that in Australia quite some time ago. Our "copper" coins, with 1c and 2c values, are no longer produced, and all stores are required to round cash purchases to the nearest 5 cents. They're still legal tender, but they're no longer "currency". Banks accept them, but won't give them out.

[Madalch]

Canadians have been talking about abolishing the penny for decades- the government doesn't seem to care, and the mint says, "As long as the banks keep ordering rolls, we'll keep making them."

[Cuddles]

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

That is still often the case, but is becoming much less common. There are also difference between credit and debit cards. Credit cards have a service charge that is usually paid by the shop, but will often be charged as extra if you make a purchase less than a certain amount, but debit cards don't, so they work much better for small purchases.

In any case, they only do this because it can be easier to deal with cash rather than cards. If cash was abolished and cards the only method of payment, I imagine most places would accept cards. The only real problem I can think of is that children wouldn't be able to buy anything. However, considering the kind of things they generally buy, would probably be a good thing.

We don't even have to sign a receipt if the amount is under $25, in many stores. And our grocery stores are starting even more rapid transaction systems, including paying by thumbprint or by waving the card across a scanner, rather than running it through the strip reader.

Signing receipts? Strip readers? That's, like, so last century.

[Michael Redman]

I'm glad they didn't make it illegal to put a penny on the tracks, though.Sorry, but it's illegal to even enter the railroad's right of way without permission, let alone place objects on the tracks.

What happens when you hand over your card to pay for a chocolate bar? ;-) I frequently use a credit card to buy a drink, or even a $0.50 pack of gum, from a vending machine at my workplace.

[ponderingturtle]

That is still often the case, but is becoming much less common. There are also difference between credit and debit cards. Credit cards have a service charge that is usually paid by the shop, but will often be charged as extra if you make a purchase less than a certain amount, but debit cards don't, so they work much better for small purchases.

In any case, they only do this because it can be easier to deal with cash rather than cards. If cash was abolished and cards the only method of payment, I imagine most places would accept cards. The only real problem I can think of is that children wouldn't be able to buy anything. However, considering the kind of things they generally buy, would probably be a good thing.

No, prepaid credit cards as gift cards.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Well, until someone narrows down the exact law (as well as the law putting them on train tracks :) ) I would wonder if there isn’t an art exception.

I.E. You could still melt down pennies to “create” “something” (I really don’t want to try and define art what-so-ever). What you made could be a potential asset (just not liquid because of the law against selling it) that is worth more than the price of the pennies or even the weight in metal as well.

[Z]

Penny press machines are still popular, esp. at zoos and other tourist attractions...

[Soapy Sam]

Oh "pennies".
Right.
I misread the OP. Thought it was a bit odd, even by Iammme standards.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Can't we just abolish pennies and be done with it?The idea has been passed around in the US for decades. I remember a number of years back the US mint or Federal Reserve got all in a tizzy about having to keep make more and more pennies because nobody was using the existing ones. It's too much hassle to cary around a bunch of pennies, so everyone would toss them in jars and piggy banks and such and take them out of circulation so the mint had to keep making more. I think it might cost more than one penny to make one penny.

The big stumbling block always seems to be sales tax. State and local goverments often finance projects with a 1 percent or 1 cent sales tax. These often come on ballots where voters decide on the sale tax increase. If you get rid of the penny, you would always have to do a 5 cent sales tax. This might turn off voters. Or it could force governments to bundle together projects under one bill. Otherwise, the money would be collected 5 times as fast for a shorter period of time, which could mean basically a short tempoprary 5 percent increase in tax and cause consumers to hold off purcases until the money is raised to pay for the project and the increased tax is lowered again.

I doubt the penny will go away because so much is handled electronically now. Just like the Fed complained about years ago, I have always tossed my pennies into jars and cashed them in every year or so. I used to cash in about $30 or $40 worth. But now I hardly use cash (or even checks) at all. I put my pennies in a small vase that has not been cashed in for at least 3 years and there probably isn't even $1 worth in there yet.

So people probably won't use as many pennies any more and the mint shouldn't have to make so many pennies any more, and the one cent can still be used for sales tax.

[DevilsAdvocate]

And to just go on a rant: instead of getting rid of the penny, what they should do is STOP SCREWING ARROUND WITH THE CURRENCY!!!!! A one time change to get bills up to anti-counterfeit standards would have been fine. And I like the gold dollar coin.

But I don't use cash very often and every time I get a bill it looks different. And there are like 10 different nickels and like 100 different quarters, plus the new $1 gold coin. And one of the nickels always looks like it was mis-stamped. I used to know what money looks like. Now it takes three times as long sort out my change. I'm never sure whether I'm carrying monopoly money and arcade tokens or real currency.

Postages stamps are great for commemorating stuff. Leave the money alone already!!! :mad:

[ktesibios]

What happens when you hand over your card to pay for a chocolate bar? ;-)

The people behind you in line start thinking about the most efficient way to shove your card all the way up your nose. ;)

Incidentally, USA pennies have not been made of plain copper in modern times. Pennies from the Indian head design through the wheat penny were made of bronze (copper-tin alloy) except for 1943, when they were made of steel due to the demands of war industry for copper, and 1944-46, when the copper shortage eased enough for the gummint to make them out of brass from recycled cartridge cases; Lincoln Memorial pennies were made of brass (copper-zinc alloy) from 1962 until, IIRC, 1982, when the switch to copper-plated zinc was made.

Although I don't know for certain, I doubt that Canadian coinage was ever made from pure silver. Pure silver is soft enough that coins made from it wear out too soon in circulation. USA silver coinage was usually made of 90% silver 10% copper alloy (this alloy is still called "coin silver" when it's used for switch and relay contacts), which is durable enough for the application.

[Madalch]

Although I don't know for certain, I doubt that Canadian coinage was ever made from pure silver. Pure silver is soft enough that coins made from it wear out too soon in circulation.
Did I say pure silver? I'm probably wrong- I should have simply said "silver" and left it at that.

[luchog]

I don't know how they're going to manage to make them any cheaper than they are now. What's next? Plastic pennies?

Aluminium.

The Japanese 1 Yen coin, roughly one-tenth of a US/Canadian cent (the CDN$ is higher than the US$ at the moment) is made of aluminium, and has been since at least the mid-1980s.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Someone said salvaged copper is now paying $3-4 a pound. Well? Wouldn't 300 pennies be more than a pound?

It is illegal to melt coins.


ETA: I am an idiot for not reading the entire thread before posting what has already been said.

[luchog]

Wow. That's unthinkable here. In fact, there's an entire campaign going (by Discover, I think) playing on the idea that paying for things in cash, check, etc. is archaic, obsolete, and downright slow.

It's also a violation of their contract. Anyone who accepts credit cards, at least in the US, cannot put any qualifications on their acceptance, according to their contracts with the credit card agency. They are, by the terms of the contract, not allowed to ask for ID cards, or set minimum purchase amounts. Of course, those restrictions are crap, particularly the disallowing of ID requirements, which any decent fraud investigator/prosecutor would think is completely retarded.

[SomeGuy]

You probably have a different charging regime for cards. Many retailers round here won't accept a card for purchases less than 5 pounds (about 10 dollars)

Which having worked in retail I can tell you is just a money-making scheme.

Cash payments are a lot more expensive for retailers.
(Except in some cases of very good check-out employees, that can make change last a very long time)

[Hatchet]

Hmmm.. Don't even think about doing this in Australia. Even defacing currency here is a crime.

One of my relatives ran a not for profit workshop for disabled people and they used to get donations of 1 and 2 cent coins which they'd drill out and use as washers for one of the products they made. The threat of 2 years in prison soon put a stop to that!

Extract from Crimes (Currency) Act 1981
Defacing or destroying current coins or current paper money

16. A person shall not, without the consent, in writing, of an authorised person, wilfully deface, disfigure, mutilate or destroy any coin or paper money that is lawfully current in Australia.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate - $5,000 or imprisonment for 2 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate - $10,000.

[Taffer]

Here in NZ, we no longer have 5c coins, and we did away with 1c a long time ago. Our lowest value is 10c.

And on the point of cards, may I just say EFTPOS ftw. Very, very, few places (as in, I know of only 2 shops in two cities) that do not take EFTPOS cards.

[Soapy Sam]

So 10c is now 1c, the minimum unit.
I can see that being a pound here, soon.

[HarryKeogh]

So 10c is now 1c, the minimum unit.

We need a coin that goes to eleven.

[Taffer]

So 10c is now 1c, the minimum unit.
I can see that being a pound here, soon.

Well, more like 10c is the new 5c. 1c hasn't been for a very long time. Not since we did away with paper dollars, afaik. But yeah, it's the new minimum unit for cash. Because of EFTPOS, though, nothing has really changed all that much. Things still cost $X.99, they just round it down if you're paying with cash.

ETA: At the same time that they did away with 5c coins, they reminted the other coins (except $1 and $2 coins) to be smaller and lighter. Our old 20c and 50c coins were pretty large and weighty. The only problem is, now the 20c and 50c coins are almost exactly the same size, and hard (for me at least) to tell appart quickly. :(

10c is now "copper", as well. Which is odd, because 5c wasn't.

We need a coin that goes to eleven.

:D

[Bethany]

Did I say pure silver? I'm probably wrong- I should have simply said "silver" and left it at that.

Silver might be a misnomer, too. There's sterling silver, of which 925/1000 parts are silver, fine silver, of which 999/1000 parts are silver, and also coin silver, which is 900/1000. The lower the silver content, the tougher the metal, but the lower the intrinsic value of the object.

[Soapy Sam]

I had become aware a few years ago that British "copper" coins were magnetic. I had supposed nickel, but if they are copper coated steel, surely they should rust if they get deeply scratched?

[Z]

I just fear it'll lead to situations like S. Korea, where the minimum unit, the 'wan', is so worthless that it took (in '93) 350 of them to buy a soda. I don't suppose it'd been so bad, though, if S. Korea had adopted the decimal when dealing with their money... lol!

[Michael Redman]

We should revalue the US dollar 10 old to 1 new. Make the penny worth something, and get over the humiliation of Canadian dollar parity.

[MRC_Hans]

In my country, destroying coins is illegal. Although I can't imagine anybody being prosecuted for putting a penny (or rather a 25øre) on the rails.

Since coins are pretty easy to counterfeit, the trick is that they are actually more expensive to make than their value. Of course this is not just a question of metal value, but also of production costs, but it is simply made non-profitable to counterfeit coins.

But of course, this means that producing coins is an expense to a state treasury, and hence the rules that forbid destroying them. Apparantly, not all countries have such rules.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

I had become aware a few years ago that British "copper" coins were magnetic. I had supposed nickel, but if they are copper coated steel, surely they should rust if they get deeply scratched?No, because copper acts as an anode to iron, so if there is a scratch that exposes the iron (steel), copper will migrate to the iron surface and keep it from corroding. It is the same principle that makes a zinc covering protective to steel plate.

Hans

[Modified]

The big stumbling block always seems to be sales tax. State and local goverments often finance projects with a 1 percent or 1 cent sales tax.

Why is that a problem? They'll just round to the nearest five cents instead of one cent. If you have 7.5% sales tax then you'll pay a dime of tax on one dollar purchase, instead of the current eight cents.

[Madalch]

No, because copper acts as an anode to iron, so if there is a scratch that exposes the iron (steel), copper will migrate to the iron surface and keep it from corroding. It is the same principle that makes a zinc covering protective to steel plate.

Can't be the same principle- zinc acts as a sacrificial anode, so it rusts instead of the iron. Copper is less reactive than iron, so the iron will rust instead of the copper.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Someone said salvaged copper is now paying $3-4 a pound. Well? Wouldn't 300 pennies be more than a pound?

Some of the costs have been mentioned--there's not much copper in most pennies (especially relative to the energy needed to extract it), you'd have to sort them by year, etc.

Also, if it were legal, why would you need to melt them down? Why not just bring your pennies in to the scrap metal dealer the way you can with copper wire or other scrap?

[Soapy Sam]

Can't be the same principle- zinc acts as a sacrificial anode, so it rusts instead of the iron. Copper is less reactive than iron, so the iron will rust instead of the copper.

That was my belief. (Goes off to look up reactivity potentials).