Keep yer chin up, it's only cancer

[athon]

'Keep yer chin up, it's only cancer' mightn't be all that effective after all when dealing with cancer patients, according to one report (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/2067473.htm).

That tiring old positive mindset doesn't really amount to much at all. So, feel free to have a bit of a grumble next time you get cancer. Won't make any difference. :)

Athon

[Soapy Sam]

Than [Name of Deity] for that.

I've always dreaded getting a fatal disease, partly because I'd die and partly because I'd probably kill, if someone gave me the "positive thinking" line. I've always been a miserable bugger. It hasn't killed me yet.

[LibraryLady]

Most of the people I've come across who subscribe to the "keep your chin up" philosophy haven't actually been ill or had someone close ill. When someone implied that my brother could have overcome his cancer, I came very close to slapping her face. Very close.

[Beanbag]

There is something I've heard of called "The Tyranny of Positive Thinking" that people with cancer are subjected, namely a lot of well-intentioned (yet in my opinion monumentally stupid) people come up and tell you that you'll get through it if you think positive thoughts, eat right, do tai chi, hug crystals, etc. If the patient takes a turn for the worse, the well-intentioned idiots start scolding like it's the person's own fault they are worse. As if they didn't have enough on their plate already.

A couple of people tried that approach on me. I thanked them for their concern and advice the first time. When they tried to lay their "you gotta try harder" crap on me the second time, I cut them off at the ankles, and explained why. The more intelligent ones admitted they never realized just exactly what they were implying, and apologized. The dumber ones just went away and left me alone.

Beanbag

[Soapy Sam]

I suppose these people mean well.
Probably so did Stalin.
The beauty of being terminally ill is that one might actually get away with smacking them one.

[fls]

Conventional wisdom among medical students/residents was that, of all the patients who were admitted for work-up of their mysterious illness, the one that we all grew fond of and admired would inevitably turn out to have cancer.

Scientifically validated, of course.

Linda

[Mashuna]

When they tried to lay their "you gotta try harder" crap on me the second time, I cut them off at the ankles, and explained why. The more intelligent ones admitted they never realized just exactly what they were implying, and apologized. The dumber ones just went away and left me alone.



This is very effective in dissuading people, especially if you do so literally.

[luchog]

A couple of people tried that approach on me. I thanked them for their concern and advice the first time. When they tried to lay their "you gotta try harder" crap on me the second time, I cut them off at the ankles, and explained why. The more intelligent ones admitted they never realized just exactly what they were implying, and apologized. The dumber ones just went away and left me alone.

I have, or rather had, a friend who has cancer, and has gone all crystal-hugging desperately upbeat; and has completely cut off all contact with "negative" or "depressing" friends. Which pretty much means anyone with a realistic attitude toward cancer-med woo and medical procedures. She's always tended a bit toward fluffy-bunny-ism, but with a decent amount of common sense toward woo. Now, she's gone completely off the deep end and cut off contact, quite loudly, with anyone who isn't a relentlessly upbeat fluffy-bunny. I'm kind of scared that that's going to backfire on her.

[Lisa Simpson]

When someone implied that my brother could have overcome his cancer, I came very close to slapping her face. Very close.

My husband's mother died from cancer and then less than a year later, his dad moved a new woman into the house and she had the nerve to say that their mom could have overcome her cancer if she had just thought positively and had something to live for.

[Beanbag]

Let me make one point first: to the best of my knowledge, I am no more terminal than the average person. I had two malignant tumors taken off the back of my throat and went through seven weeks of radiation treatments. Except for some loss of taste and a somewhat dry mouth (aftereffects of the radiation), I've pretty much made a full recovery. Just don't eat anything I've cooked for myself, 'cause it's usually seasoned strong enough to knock you on your kiester.

Most modern people have never directly experienced death. Modern society and medicine has a policy of isolating a dying person, shuttling them off to a hospital or hospice. Death in home is not the norm, whereas less than a hundred years ago it was common. In the typical family, by the time you were twelve you had most likely witnessed the death of a sibling to childhood illness. You most likely had experienced the death of a grandparent or great-grandparent in your own home. That doesn't happen any more.

So when people are suddenly forced to deal with a possibly terminal condition in someone they know, they quite often are facing it for the first time and they don't know how to deal with it. It's roughly equivalent to that time when you first kissed your girlfriend and she sighed and dissolved in your arms, and you suddenly realized "Okay, I've got her; what do I do now?" If you were anything like me, you probably did something stupid in a moment of near panic. Fortunately, my girlfriend was understanding and considerate enough to help me through the crisis (the first time, at least). I try to do the same.

You have to allow people to be human. It's when they would go all new age and woo the second or third time that I would get testy. I was going through all the issues a cancer patient goes through while under treatment, and I was too busy trying to hold it all together to be as gracious and concerned as I suppose I should have been. I know their intentions were good, but I just couldn't deal with their almost continual meddling. In a completely honest moment, I have to admit I didn't want to think about my situation too closely, and their suggestions and concerns kept forcing me to deal with it when all I wanted was to spend a few hours handling some completely different situation. I knew my situation wasn't good: I just didn't want to think about it at that time.

This is the first time I've really sat down and thought the matter through. Consider it a milestone of sorts.

Beanbag

[Beanbag]

I have, or rather had, a friend who has cancer, and has gone all crystal-hugging desperately upbeat; and has completely cut off all contact with "negative" or "depressing" friends. Which pretty much means anyone with a realistic attitude toward cancer-med woo and medical procedures. She's always tended a bit toward fluffy-bunny-ism, but with a decent amount of common sense toward woo. Now, she's gone completely off the deep end and cut off contact, quite loudly, with anyone who isn't a relentlessly upbeat fluffy-bunny. I'm kind of scared that that's going to backfire on her.
Check my previous reply, and realize that you have to allow her to be human as well. She's facing the concept of her mortality for the first time. As long as she's receiving good medical care, the new age/positive outlook stuff just might be what's propping her up mentally. If she's forgoing medical treatment for new age woo, that's another matter.

People cope by different mechanisms. Me? I got mad. I lit a slow fire inside myself and let it burn up to a white heat that gave me the drive to go through it all. That, and the fact that I stopped for a large chocolate malt on the way to my next radiation treatment each day (you gotta reward yourself somehow). I just hope I managed to stay civil through it all. Considering I didn't lose any friends, and made a few new ones during the whole affair, I guess I managed okay.

Beanbag

[Beanbag]

My husband's mother died from cancer and then less than a year later, his dad moved a new woman into the house and she had the nerve to say that their mom could have overcome her cancer if she had just thought positively and had something to live for.
Consider it a convenient rationalization that allows her to avoid thinking about her own death. She's coping, only through denial, and not coping gracefully.

Beanbag

[skeptifem]

Consider it a convenient rationalization that allows her to avoid thinking about her own death. She's coping, only through denial, and not coping gracefully.

Beanbag


youre a really kind person.

[Beanbag]

youre a really kind person.
It helps when you understand that every person is a work in progress.

Beanbag

[luchog]

Check my previous reply, and realize that you have to allow her to be human as well. She's facing the concept of her mortality for the first time. As long as she's receiving good medical care, the new age/positive outlook stuff just might be what's propping her up mentally. If she's forgoing medical treatment for new age woo, that's another matter.

People cope by different mechanisms.
Hypocrisy is apparently one of them. As I said, she had some measure of common sense before; what I didn't say was that she had no problem berating people for what she saw as their lack of it. Now she's gone a complete 180, unfriending people for actually having common sense and daring to display it.

I've has friends die. I've had close relatives die. Mostly from diabetes complications.

[Beanbag]

Hypocrisy is apparently one of them. As I said, she had some measure of common sense before; what I didn't say was that she had no problem berating people for what she saw as their lack of it. Now she's gone a complete 180, unfriending people for actually having common sense and daring to display it.

I've has friends die. I've had close relatives die. Mostly from diabetes complications.
It's a frightening thing when the abstract concept of your own death starts to take on a real substance. I'm not the same person I was.

The temptation here is to lecture you on how you should support your friend, but I know that would be nothing but hypocrisy. Relationships are far too complex for me to be so vain as to even think I could offer advice based on a few paragraphs. It's obvious you care about this person, so in that respect she's very fortunate.

The only thing I can say is you should do what you think is best, based on your understanding of her situation. Her situation will affect you as well, as you've no doubt discovered. If it didn't, you never were friends.

Beanbag

[Denial]

I have to recommend the norwegian movie Kunsten å tenke negativt (english title: The Art of Negative Thinking). It's a wonderful taboo-breaking story of a miserable trainwreck of a guy in a wheelchair meeting up with a super-positive group of people. It's weird and fantastic and had me rolling with laughter.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Don't we all engage in positive thinking? Why do we feel obliged to pretend to be happy when interacting with soon-to-be dead people and expect them to reciprocate, when:

i) You know you're faking it.
ii) You're fairly confident they're faking it (and having to put much more effort in than you;)).
iii) They're fairly confident you're faking it.

?

My theory is that it is the only thing many people have any control over in these situations and it allows them to function.

[Soapy Sam]

No question- in some situations , absolutely anything you say may upset someone.
Including saying absolutely nothing.

[luchog]

The temptation here is to lecture you on how you should support your friend, but I know that would be nothing but hypocrisy. Relationships are far too complex for me to be so vain as to even think I could offer advice based on a few paragraphs. It's obvious you care about this person, so in that respect she's very fortunate.
Except, of course, that she will no longer consider me a friend, and has cut off all contact with me and anyone else who isn't unrealistically upbeat. In my case, it was for trying to offer what appears to be solid, practical advice in pursuing, not treatment, but funding for already ongoing treatment. She decided that she didn't like anyone saying that it would be considerably more difficult than just walking into a government office and demanding money.

And it's not like this was even that much of a shock to her. She'd already successfully fought off a similar attack about 10 prior, and she's been vigilant about watching for a possible recurrence every since, so she was fully familiar with the regimen and potential issues surrounding her treatment.

Mostly I'm just disappointed in her refusal to accept any assistance or support that didn't fit into a very woo mindset; and the highly derogatory response to anyone who isn't a woo. It's definitely affected her interactions with others in a very negative way.

[Suezoled]

There is something I've heard of called "The Tyranny of Positive Thinking" that people with cancer are subjected, namely a lot of well-intentioned (yet in my opinion monumentally stupid) people come up and tell you that you'll get through it if you think positive thoughts, eat right, do tai chi, hug crystals, etc. If the patient takes a turn for the worse, the well-intentioned idiots start scolding like it's the person's own fault they are worse. As if they didn't have enough on their plate already.


Beanbag

oh good. Having had cancer at the ripe old age of 11 (cancer free for nearly 20 years since then!), it was a phenomenal burden to appear upbeat when all I wanted to do was curl up and die. No, really, all I wanted to do was curl up and die. Selfishly, I was tired of the chemotherapy, the late nights with my head in the toilet, the weight I lost, the hair that fell out in clumps, the muscle cramps, fatigue, and other side effects, plus having to appear optimistic.

Yeah, I got angry too...only I wasn't allowed to show it. I wasn't allowed to express frustration or fear, because it scared other people, or made them react in an angry manner.

Funny thing about mainstream medicine, though...it works to some degree no matter what you believe or feel.

To be fair, though, some folks tried to be helpful by telling their kids in a loud voice that I must have done something terrible, since God was punishing me with cancer, so they better be good.

[Beanbag]

Yeah, I got angry too...only I wasn't allowed to show it. I wasn't allowed to express frustration or fear, because it scared other people, or made them react in an angry manner.

To be fair, though, some folks tried to be helpful by telling their kids in a loud voice that I must have done something terrible, since God was punishing me with cancer, so they better be good.
That I find almost unimaginable. It's bad enough when you have no real control over your situation as relating to your illness, but as a child to have absolutely no control over your life would have been something I'm not sure I would have gone through without serious damage to my persona.

As for the parents using your situation to frighten their own children (and I don't care how you want to spin it, their actions were nothing but fear-mongering), that is totally without any reasonable excuse. To have done it within earshot of you is simply criminal.

You have my respect.

Beanbag

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Wow, so you mean to tell me that Deepak Chopra is wrong about something?! :p

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=96559&highlight=DEEPAK

You know, growing up where I did, I was constantly surrounded by this sort of psychobabble and self-help twaddle from teachers, counselors, other sorts of educators, motivational speakers, etc., etc. Both woo and non-woo.

And even as a kid, I knew "positive thinking" and so on where total crap with no relation to how things work in the real world. That sometimes bad things just happen and that no trying to talk yourself into thinking otherwise so will change that fact.

So now I can say: I knew it! :) And when things are bad, I'll wallow in my misery all I darn well please.

[LostAngeles]

My husband's mother died from cancer and then less than a year later, his dad moved a new woman into the house and she had the nerve to say that their mom could have overcome her cancer if she had just thought positively and had something to live for.

Of course, because the wonderful husband and children she had weren't good enough. Hopefully the new woman, should she ever fall ill, has something much better that isn't that husband and those children...

Because how that can possibly not translate to, "You weren't good enough for her to stay around and keep living," is beyond me.:mad:

[SusanB-M1]

Claire Rayner (author/journalist), when she had cancer some years ago, said that what really annoyed her was the way people kept telling her she must fight it. As she pointed out, the medical teams were doing all the hard work.

[athon]

Claire Rayner (author/journalist), when she had cancer some years ago, said that what really annoyed her was the way people kept telling her she must fight it. As she pointed out, the medical teams were doing all the hard work.

I'm never sure what 'fight it' actually means. You see so many news stories which say 'she/he was a fighter' and 'they battled cancer'. Other than emotional hypobole, I can't think of what it means, other than to keep a positive attitude about it.

I admit, the thing about being sick is that it makes you feel bad. If you feel positive, then being sick isn't so bad as it could be. I get that. However to then relate the attitude to whether you recover or not is, demonstratably, ludicrous.

Keep in mind, though, it doesn't mean necessarily that feeling depressed and negative has no effect on physiology. Stress still isn't good for healing. But it's not a scale where feeling good 'heals' you more.

Athon