Older virgins outcasted?

[workout_girl]

"It was once a badge of honor. But to the surprising number of adult women today who have not had sex, virginity is nothing but a curse

When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn't know it. She wasn't ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?" The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn't know how to answer, and she didn't really want to. "One year? Two years?" She didn't respond. "Don't tell me you're a virgin?" he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. "No offense, but most people do that in high school," he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he'd already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, "like I was some disgusting object."

"It made me scared to date, scared to talk to guys. It was like, 'Oh my God, they're all going to do this,'" she says. She still tried, occasionally, and after about a year she met another guy, someone else from work. But then he also didn't know she was a virgin, and one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers, and while she laughs nervously now as she retells the story, it wasn't funny then. It reminded her of the last time and she started to cry. But this guy was actually nice about it, telling her things like "That guy was such an *******" and "You should say you just haven't found the right guy; be more self-confident." It made her feel better, and when he left he said he'd call her the next day. But he didn't call until the following week and things went downhill from there. "He never really said it was because I was a virgin," Amanda says. "But that was the point when everything shifted."

[sophia8]

For FSM's sake, somebody introduce that woman to some feminists. Or at least tell her that lots of men drop a woman after the first date and it's nothing to do with her lack of experience.

[Tokenconservative]

"It was once a badge of honor. But to the surprising number of adult women today who have not had sex, virginity is nothing but a curse

When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn't know it. She wasn't ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?" The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn't know how to answer, and she didn't really want to. "One year? Two years?" She didn't respond. "Don't tell me you're a virgin?" he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. "No offense, but most people do that in high school," he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he'd already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, "like I was some disgusting object."

"It made me scared to date, scared to talk to guys. It was like, 'Oh my God, they're all going to do this,'" she says. She still tried, occasionally, and after about a year she met another guy, someone else from work. But then he also didn't know she was a virgin, and one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers, and while she laughs nervously now as she retells the story, it wasn't funny then. It reminded her of the last time and she started to cry. But this guy was actually nice about it, telling her things like "That guy was such an *******" and "You should say you just haven't found the right guy; be more self-confident." It made her feel better, and when he left he said he'd call her the next day. But he didn't call until the following week and things went downhill from there. "He never really said it was because I was a virgin," Amanda says. "But that was the point when everything shifted."

LOL!

This is comical. Where do they gets stuff like this?

Used to be "scoring" a virgin was a biiiiig deal for guys. I guess the feminization of our culture is complete!

Now guys "pull away in disgust" from a virgin? I guess that leaves more for the Islamofascist fanatics, huh?

Tokie

[Zep]

LOL!

This is comical. Where do they gets stuff like this?

Used to be "scoring" a virgin was a biiiiig deal for guys. I guess the feminization of our culture is complete!

Now guys "pull away in disgust" from a virgin? I guess that leaves more for the Islamofascist fanatics, huh?

TokieLet us know when this ever happens for you, big guy!

[Ryokan]

What has this made up story got to do with anything? Is it supposed to reflect reality? Because I don't think it does.

[workout_girl]

Since I don't have 15 post, , I couldn't post the link, but it does seem that if you are a virgin in your 20's or 30's people think you are some sort of freak.

[Lonewulf]

LOL!

This is comical. Where do they gets stuff like this?

Used to be "scoring" a virgin was a biiiiig deal for guys. I guess the feminization of our culture is complete!

Now guys "pull away in disgust" from a virgin? I guess that leaves more for the Islamofascist fanatics, huh?

Tokie

Token, might I comment on how you are the perfect example of a perfect parody of the extreme American neoconservative? Good job, my man. You're not as good as Stephen Colbert, but you're getting there!

"It was once a badge of honor. But to the surprising number of adult women today who have not had sex, virginity is nothing but a curse

When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn't know it. She wasn't ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?" The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn't know how to answer, and she didn't really want to. "One year? Two years?" She didn't respond. "Don't tell me you're a virgin?" he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. "No offense, but most people do that in high school," he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he'd already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, "like I was some disgusting object."

"It made me scared to date, scared to talk to guys. It was like, 'Oh my God, they're all going to do this,'" she says. She still tried, occasionally, and after about a year she met another guy, someone else from work. But then he also didn't know she was a virgin, and one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers, and while she laughs nervously now as she retells the story, it wasn't funny then. It reminded her of the last time and she started to cry. But this guy was actually nice about it, telling her things like "That guy was such an *******" and "You should say you just haven't found the right guy; be more self-confident." It made her feel better, and when he left he said he'd call her the next day. But he didn't call until the following week and things went downhill from there. "He never really said it was because I was a virgin," Amanda says. "But that was the point when everything shifted."
Okay, workout girl...

1) Please demonstrate where you got this article from.

2) This is an anecdotal account, and I hope you realize this. There is nothing that can be verified from this one story alone, even if it actually happened. It's meaningless for getting an accurate view of actual trends of the state of things today.

3) If you can, insert an URL by typing in the URL with spaces and no slashes (or just remove one of the slashes and insert a space or another character).

[workout_girl]

There's really no way to validate 99% of stories, so should we assume they are all made up also?

www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/09/06/virgins/index_np.html

[Lonewulf]

You're confusing "Assuming something is prevalent and widespread" with "assuming a story is made up".

Like I said, even if her story is 100% truthful, it isn't a sign of anything at all. If I say that I ran into a racist in Denmark, that doesn't make Denmark racist, nor even make Denmark high in overall racism.

[sophia8]

Why should everybody have to know that you've never had a tadger inside your morris? It's your business and nobody else's concern. Also, you can be sure that people almost invariably lie about how much sex they have - it's something that can't be checked up on. So never believe any surveys that tell you that everyone else is at it like rabbits.
This woman's problem isn't her virginity - it's a) the fact that she's 26 and only ever had two dates; and b) the fact that she considers that a date automatically means sex.
She badly needs to boost her self-esteem and self-confidence and stop obssessing about never having done a certain physical manoeuvre with a male person. Above all, she should stop seeing men as just penises on legs. A man is more than just a body; some of them are actually quite intelligent, friendly and interesting people.

[Rob Lister]

Well, it is an interesting snip but I couldn't access the salon article because my browser refuses to have anything to do with virgins.

Seriously though, I can see this being a problem for some guys -- which is probably a blessing in disguise for the subject lady. Just sayin'

There certainly does seem to be a social disconnect with a 25+y/o virgin though, unless they are so grotesque that they are simply undoable. I buy the story as presented. My browser refuses to pay.

[Rob Lister]

Why should everybody have to know that you've never had a tadger inside your morris? It's your business and nobody else's concern. Also, you can be sure that people almost invariably lie about how much sex they have - it's something that can't be checked up on. So never believe any surveys that tell you that everyone else is at it like rabbits.
This woman's problem isn't her virginity - it's a) the fact that she's 26 and only ever had two dates; and b) the fact that she considers that a date automatically means sex.
She badly needs to boost her self-esteem and self-confidence and stop obssessing about never having done a certain physical manoeuvre with a male person. Above all, she should stop seeing men as just penises on legs. A man is more than just a body; some of them are actually quite intelligent, friendly and interesting people.

OMG! We've come full circle!

[ponderingturtle]

Since I don't have 15 post, , I couldn't post the link, but it does seem that if you are a virgin in your 20's or 30's people think you are some sort of freak.

As was shown by the Would You Date A Virgin thread a year ago. A number of people on the forum said no way would that date an older virgin because they must be socialy malajusted and so should be kept away from.

Link (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63159)

[madurobob]

yeah, the story is just that - one person's story. I speaks to common problems with self-esteem and misguided ideas about sexuality. But, I think we're dodging the OPs real point here. I think what the OP is asking is "is there a stigma on being an older than average female virgin?"

I don't know if stigma is the right word, but I know I would feel differently on a date if the woman revealed she was a virgin. Of course, ditto for the same scenario if the woman reveals she's been a hooker for the past 5 years.

I don't know why.. performance anxiety? Worries that she may bring too much emotional baggage into what I was hoping would be more casual (yes, I'm a pig....)?

[TragicMonkey]

Why don't these women virgins who are worried about their lack of experience just do what all male virgins do on their first time? Lie and pretend they've done it before.

[Lonewulf]

Wouldn't some guys figure it out after a while? :O

Besides, I don't think that dishonesty is good for a real relationship. If all you want to do is bag someone for the night, though, or have a **** buddy, go ahead.

[Region Rat]

Well, there are such things as vibrators and such, and it wouldn't seem so difficult or uncommon to 'run the blockade' ahead of time and just plain not mention it. That kind of leads me to believe its more a matter of social (and sexual) ineptness that is holding her back.

[fuelair]

As noted, the article is either incomplete or the author is not at all good. Either way, all we see is one anecdote - or part of one anecdote. I note, the same source has an article on a person trying to come out as an atheist! Just sayin'.........

[fuelair]

Took longer than usual to pull other data (tried older women virginity and it gave too limited an amount) but this and the report it leads too may help on the statisticals over anecdotals: http://www.virginbook.org/?cat=15

[Undesired Walrus]

I sometimes wonder if the about 95% of the world's population are virgins, and the provable 5% that are not are your parents when you walk in on them. After all, you can never deny that..

[Lonewulf]

I sometimes wonder if the about 95% of the world's population are virgins, and the provable 5% that are not are your parents when you walk in on them. After all, you can never deny that..
But then where do all the kids come from? o.O

[sophia8]

Well, there are such things as vibrators and such, and it wouldn't seem so difficult or uncommon to 'run the blockade' ahead of time and just plain not mention it. That kind of leads me to believe its more a matter of social (and sexual) ineptness that is holding her back.
I did know a girl once who claimed that she'd had a couple of "practice runs" with a candle (unlit, of course!) before doing "it" for real - she was seriously worried that she might not be able to stretch enough. Which is a fairly common worry, in my experience.
Certainly it sounds like this woman should get herself off to a sex boutique for some expert help on buying a "lady's best friend".

[Redtail]

Well for myself, I wouldn't "pull away from a virgin in disgust" but out of all the "chances" I've had with virgins (not counting high school) I've only dated one because I could see myself in a long term relationship her. It didn't turn out that way but I could see it. The others I was just looking for "friends with benefits" and I wouldn't want to put a women in that situation with her first time.

[Cainkane1]

I hate to admit it but I quit dating a girl for the same reason. She was a over 20 something virgin and I didn't want to spoil things for her.

[LostAngeles]

LOL!

This is comical. Where do they gets stuff like this?

Used to be "scoring" a virgin was a biiiiig deal for guys. I guess the feminization of our culture is complete!

Now guys "pull away in disgust" from a virgin? I guess that leaves more for the Islamofascist fanatics, huh?

Tokie

I don't quite follow. The, "scoring," of a virgin was part of a double-standard (it's ok for guys to have sex before marriage, but not girls.) The double standard is slowly disappearing, given you aren't in the media spotlight, but I can't see how that's, "feminizing," our culture.

What's gone on between someone's legs is really only your concern if you are screwing them. If you're looking to screw them, slip on a little protection and you can worry less about what's treaded that meaty path before you.

[tkingdoll]

The thing that struck me about the OP is...what on earth is the woman doing that makes this happen:

One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?"

one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers

Two different guys ask about other lovers during the heat of the moment? That's kind of a rare kink, you know. I've had a lot of partners and none of them have ever asked about my sexual history during passionate embraces. Funnily enough, most guys don't want you thinking about your last lay while you're making out with them. And they don't want to think about it either. Perhaps she should vet for this kind of guy in advance. Or was she doing something that just screams "virgin"? Or...is the whole thing made up?


"ooh yeah baby, that feels good, you really turn me on. Hey, while we're on the subject, tell me about your former lovers."

Nah. I don't buy it.

[Alareth]

Virgins are great! You can tell them how great you were and they have no frame of reference to know if you are lying.

[ThatSoundAgain]

"ooh yeah baby, that feels good, you really turn me on. Hey, while we're on the subject, tell me about your former lovers."

Nah. I don't buy it.

I share your skepticism, but the first one could just be a clumsy attempt to bring up the subject - he asked when and not with whom.

I've certainly been known to end up tasting my own foot after attempting for another part of someone else's anatomy, under this sort of pressure. If you follow.

[tkingdoll]

I share your skepticism, but the first one could just be a clumsy attempt to bring up the subject - he asked when and not with whom.



That is indeed the claim, which then of course contradicts it happened again, almost in the exact same way The whole story is muddled. If it happened (of which I am skeptical) then it's interesting that it's painted to be the guy's fault both times.

[madurobob]

Well, there are such things as vibrators and such, and it wouldn't seem so difficult or uncommon to 'run the blockade' ahead of time and just plain not mention it.

"Run the blockade". :D I dunno why, but I find that a hilarious phrase given the subject.

Is this a common phrase I've missed, or did you just apply it on-the-fly?

[Travis]

As was shown by the Would You Date A Virgin thread a year ago. A number of people on the forum said no way would that date an older virgin because they must be socialy malajusted and so should be kept away from.

Link (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63159)

Wow, that is truly depressing.

My 49ers are getting clobbered, again, and I find out that I'm considered a socially maladjusted freak.

[Alareth]

Wow, that is truly depressing.

My 49ers are getting clobbered, again, and I find out that I'm considered a socially maladjusted freak.


Isn't 49ers Fan a synonym for socially maladjusted freak?

[ThatSoundAgain]

That is indeed the claim, which then of course contradicts The whole story is muddled. If it happened (of which I am skeptical) then it's interesting that it's painted to be the guy's fault both times.

The fact that this story seems improbable, and that it doesn't appear to be the whole story just add to the fact that it - as an anecdote - isn't very significant in the first place.

Look, I'm not defending this incoherent story further than saying that the first question doesn't seem improbable. That's all.

"Run the blockade". :D I dunno why, but I find that a hilarious phrase given the subject.

As long as we don't get into metaphors about little Dutch boys' fingers and leaking dykes, I'm good.

Wow, that is truly depressing.

My 49ers are getting clobbered, again, and I find out that I'm considered a socially maladjusted freak.

Certainly not by me. Not on this info alone.

And in general individuals have to actively make their sex life my business for me to consider it such.

[Travis]

Isn't 49ers Fan a synonym for socially maladjusted freak?

Only if your a Cowboys fan. But then they are all a bunch of wife-beating in the closet homophobes.:D;)

[LostAngeles]

Only if your a Cowboys fan. But then they are all a bunch of wife-beating in the closet homophobes.:D;)

Oh don't be so harsh.

Cowboys fans have only a rudimentary intelligence. They don't have the densely packed grey matter that the rest of humanity has, it's more of a watery mush with single-celled creatures swimming around.

How else can you explain them being Cowboys fans?

[tkingdoll]

Look, I'm not defending this incoherent story further than saying that the first question doesn't seem improbable. That's all.



Oh I don't disagree with that. It could have been one of those hot "yeah, you are really begging for it that's hot" type of when-was-the-last-time questions, for example. But we're then told that the second time was the same, which is then described as totally different. Rat, smell, etc.

You're right, anecdotes are worth what you pay for them. I can't figure this one out though, is it meant to be real or not? And why is there no source for it? If it wasn't invented for this OP then where is it copied from?

A mystery like virginity itself...:boxedin:

[Travis]

Oh don't be so harsh.

Cowboys fans have only a rudimentary intelligence. They don't have the densely packed grey matter that the rest of humanity has, it's more of a watery mush with single-celled creatures swimming around.

How else can you explain them being Cowboys fans?

Well there's always the panspermian spore insemination hypothesis, that might explain why they're Cowboy fans.

Seriously that team is having a pretty good year, not as good as the Patriots....damn you Hokulele!....but having a pretty good season nonetheless.

[Redtail]

Oh don't be so harsh.

Cowboys fans have only a rudimentary intelligence. They don't have the densely packed grey matter that the rest of humanity has, it's more of a watery mush with single-celled creatures swimming around.

How else can you explain them being Cowboys fans?

... Other than the 5 Super Bowl rings?

[Travis]

A mystery like virginity itself...:boxedin:

AHA! Just as I suspected! Teek was never a virgin!

I'm not the freak here, she is.:D

[Alareth]

Only if your a Cowboys fan. But then they are all a bunch of wife-beating in the closet homophobes.:D;)

No, it's all about the Jets.

[Travis]

No, it's all about the Jets.

Meh, I'm moderately indifferent towards Jets fans.

As opposed to being severely indifferent as I am towards Browns fans.

[LostAngeles]

... Other than the 5 Super Bowl rings?

Keep talking. At least our quarterback-who-replaced-Bledsoe can hold onto a ball.

Not to mention being undefeated.

And making a team player out of Randy Moss.

How's T.O. working out for you?

[Hokulele]

Brady to Vrabel!

[TuftedPuffin]

While we're on the subject, do you think it's harder or easier for a male virgin?

[Region Rat]

"Run the blockade". :D I dunno why, but I find that a hilarious phrase given the subject.

Is this a common phrase I've missed, or did you just apply it on-the-fly?

On-the-fly, in a fit of absolute creativity. Or just a fit, I can never tell when I come out of it.

You can catch my act down at the Laugh Hole until Wednesday.

[tkingdoll]

While we're on the subject, do you think it's harder or easier for a male virgin?

It's easier for a male virgin when it's harder.

Next question!

[The Painter]

Maybe she's talking about a technical virgin

[Travis]

While we're on the subject, do you think it's harder or easier for a male virgin?

I think there is a certain expectation for a male to be experienced. When people find out I'm a virgin still they usually first ask if it's for religious reasons. When they find out I'm an atheist they usually then ask if I have a medical condition that prevents me from having sex.

For some reason people have a hard time believing that I never found a willing female partner. I don't know if a virgin woman in my place would be met with the same disbelief.

[ThatSoundAgain]

You're right, anecdotes are worth what you pay for them. I can't figure this one out though, is it meant to be real or not? And why is there no source for it? If it wasn't invented for this OP then where is it copied from?


Post #8 has the link, to a Salon.com piece. I couldn't tolerate the ads and popups long enough to read it all, but what I saw looked like a fluff article of the kind that poses as some kind of serious reporting. You know, the kind you can knit your brow at to look deep in between the Prada ads.

I'm not familiar with Salon, but it does sound like light reading. Am I being too hasty? What's their rep?

[Redtail]

Keep talking. At least our quarterback-who-replaced-Bledsoe can hold onto a ball.

Not to mention being undefeated.

And making a team player out of Randy Moss.

How's T.O. working out for you?

A. Easy to hold onto the ball when you don't get hit. (Aikman? Thiesman? Ring a bell? BTW: You guys should give more credit to your O-line. Granted the scheme gives Brady short drops and he has a quick release but when was the last time he was blindsided? Send them boys some pies.)

B. Who said I was a Cowboy fan? I was but I'm a Panther fan since 95. (Before you start with "Ha ha we beat you in SB 38 and Ha ha we have 3 rings" remember this. 1. We're only 12 years old. 2. When SB 38 came about I was in Grad school at UCONN. The Pats fans said we would lose by 21. I thank fans like you for my condo.:p

[LostAngeles]

A. Easy to hold onto the ball when you don't get hit. (Aikman? Thiesman? Ring a bell? BTW: You guys should give more credit to your O-line. Granted the scheme gives Brady short drops and he has a quick release but when was the last time he was blindsided? Send them boys some pies.)

B. Who said I was a Cowboy fan? I was but I'm a Panther fan since 95. (Before you start with "Ha ha we beat you in SB 38 and Ha ha we have 3 rings" remember this. 1. We're only 12 years old. 2. When SB 38 came about I was in Grad school at UCONN. The Pats fans said we would lose by 21. I thank fans like you for my condo.:p

I was referring to this:

xoXUgW6dXME

I'm not going to mock the Panthers. The Panthers were a damned good team that year and they are consistently solid. They may not have a good record in any given year, but they've never been the Cardinals.

[Darth Rotor]

I think there is a certain expectation for a male to be experienced. When people find out I'm a virgin still they usually first ask if it's for religious reasons. When they find out I'm an atheist they usually then ask if I have a medical condition that prevents me from having sex.

For some reason people have a hard time believing that I never found a willing female partner. I don't know if a virgin woman in my place would be met with the same disbelief.
It occurs to me that you need to meet that nice lady in the OP, and the two of you take a nice leisurely stroll into fleshy fun, if that's where things go for the both of you.

Or not, seeing as how she might be fictional, which means you have no date. :p

As to virgins, I don't understand the aversion to them. If you know your partner for the evening's flesh match is a virgin, it is incentive to take things slowly, a bit at a time, and enjoy the novelty and exploration bit. This means for the gents, a bit of patience, a bit of listening, and a bit of "how do you like this?" rather than expecting "Oh, yeah, she's sure to like this." As for the latter, the same can be said for any first event, with any partner, virgin or not. Lots of fun to be had when one is not in a rush, as you both explore each other with fun and frolic as the aim.

Of course, sometimes, folks are in a rush, and some folks have expectations of some perfect acrobat for any partner.

Life's not perfect, and neither are most people. Play the cards in your hand.

DR

[Dunstan]

As to virgins, I don't understand the aversion to them. If you know your partner for the evening's flesh match is a virgin, it is incentive to take things slowly, a bit at a time, and enjoy the novelty and exploration bit. This means for the gents, a bit of patience, a bit of listening, and a bit of "how do you like this?" rather than expecting "Oh, yeah, she's sure to like this." As for the latter, the same can be said for any first event, with any partner, virgin or not. Lots of fun to be had when one is not in a rush, as you both explore each other with fun and frolic as the aim.

Of course, sometimes, folks are in a rush, and some folks have expectations of some perfect acrobat for any partner.


For me at least, the issue is not acrobatics or skill. It's the fact that any woman who has made it into her late 20s or 30s without having sex almost certainly has a wildly different attitude towards sex than me. If she's been waiting for "the right guy," that implies a lot of expectations (relationship-wise, not performance-wise), and I might not be ready to fulfill those.

[madurobob]

For me at least, the issue is not acrobatics or skill. It's the fact that any woman who has made it into her late 20s or 30s without having sex almost certainly has a wildly different attitude towards sex than me. If she's been waiting for "the right guy," that implies a lot of expectations (relationship-wise, not performance-wise), and I might not be ready to fulfill those.

Exactly what I meant by "emotional baggage" in my earlier post. Its already somewhat established that females tend to assign more emotional meaning to sex than do males. Add to that an extra decade of virginity for the female and the emotional connotations could be extreme.... even scary.

And, btw... GO COWBOYS!

[timhau]

it's interesting that it's painted to be the guy's fault both times.

You mean there are relationship problems that aren't the guy's fault?

[TragicMonkey]

You mean there are relationship problems that aren't the guy's fault?

Yes, but only in lesbian relationships.

[Travis]

It occurs to me that you need to meet that nice lady in the OP, and the two of you take a nice leisurely stroll into fleshy fun, if that's where things go for the both of you.

Or not, seeing as how she might be fictional, which means you have no date. :p



Actually I would love to meet up with a female virgin as then there are no "expectations." It's really limiting when you know your first time you won't pleasure the woman at all (assuming she isn't a virgin) whilst knowing that by this age I'm expected to be able to.

[timhau]

Yes, but only in lesbian relationships.

Nah. There's always the guy next door who, like all men, thinks that carpetmunchers are the way they are only because they haven't known a real man yet.

[Rasmus]

It's really limiting when you know your first time you won't pleasure the woman at all (assuming she isn't a virgin)

Uh ... feel free to not answer, but how do you know this?

[Tokenconservative]

Let us know when this ever happens for you, big guy!

Hmm...I'm not that big.

And when I was young, I was quite the pretty boy, so I attracted...well, let's say more than my fair share of female attention.

My own "cherry" was popped relatively late (but it was some time ago) by a 13 yr old pretending she was older. Shortly after, having discovered how much fun sex is, I was more...open. My next gf was 6 years older than me and hotter than even the girls you jackoff to online, Zep. Had a LOT of fun with her, and she taught me everything a young man needs to know....

By the time I met my would-be wife when I was only 19, I believe I'd bedded some 25-30 girls and women--the oldest being 35 and again, a total babe.

Is this good? Prolly not. But if we are going to compare records Zeppie....well...it speaks for itself.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

While we're on the subject, do you think it's harder or easier for a male virgin?

I don't imagine most guys, outside very religious circles even admit they are virgins after about age 14-15 in US culture.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

There's really no way to validate 99% of stories, so should we assume they are all made up also?

www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/09/06/virgins/index_np.html

It pains me, WOG, but I have to agree with LonePuss here...he's not saying it's "made up" he's saying it is singular and tells us nothing. It's interesting, but is not in and of itself indicative of much.

It's what's called a "single Indian" assumption: I know that all Indians walk single-file, because the ONE I saw was!

Dun't work. And this is what American "news" media often do with such stories. Some reportette, very liberal, very urbane and sophisticated...thinks that "Sex in the City" is the template for modern life for urban, liberal American women (and lives that way herself if she's not too much of a hairy-legged feminist to get laid a lot), ran across this girl and was shocked--SHOCKED!--herself by this because every other modern, very liberal-feminist urban woman she knows beds every man they possibly can, just as she herself does.

Since she (reportette) is unable, due to her (lack of) training in cognition and metacognition and in fact the insistence in her higher education (J-school) that being a slut is the "norm" and that any modern, liberal woman who is not bedding every male (or better, female) she can has somethng seriously wrong with her, running across someone like this is like you are me running across a little green man from Mars--totally alien to her.

From my reading (and no, LW, Zep, and the rest of my stalkers, I have no link--LIIIIINNNNKKKKKKK!!!) while the "old" virgin is by no means the norm, the reportette model (deflowered at 12 and jumping every swinging member she can find from then on out) is also not the norm. It's something in the middle...and actually, this is for BOTH men and women.

Keep in mind that because our culture DEMANDS that younger and younger members of our society be sexualized, made to at least appear sexually available (think: Brittany Spears) and that "we" engage in sex virtually the moment we are physically able to (it's not gotten as bad in the US as it is in Holland where a 9-yr-old can "agree too" sex with an adult...but it will), it is a mark of shame NOT to do so....in fact, those who don't are by those on the left (that's going to include virtually all "news" reporters) viewed as freakish oddities who, if they are not montrous victim-creations of "sexual suppression" by religious parents, MUST then have som "serious issues."

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Why should everybody have to know that you've never had a tadger inside your morris? It's your business and nobody else's concern. Also, you can be sure that people almost invariably lie about how much sex they have - it's something that can't be checked up on. So never believe any surveys that tell you that everyone else is at it like rabbits.
This woman's problem isn't her virginity - it's a) the fact that she's 26 and only ever had two dates; and b) the fact that she considers that a date automatically means sex.
She badly needs to boost her self-esteem and self-confidence and stop obssessing about never having done a certain physical manoeuvre with a male person. Above all, she should stop seeing men as just penises on legs. A man is more than just a body; some of them are actually quite intelligent, friendly and interesting people.

Whew! Good thing you are from Scottishland....

This is not how sex is viewed in America.

And you would be eaten alive and your denuded skull stuck on a pike were you to voice such anti-feminist opinions (men...bright, interesting? More than just sperm factories to create more wymyn?! Are you MAD!?) on virtually any American univ. campus, at at probably 99.9% of all "news" organs.

In America, today (and for the past 3 years, anyway) a date does confer "sex." Period. Now, it does all depend today on what your definition of "is" is. That's why today, young women tell themselves that taking a man or boy's sexual member into her mouth and manipulating same until it results in ejaculation is "not sex!!"

In MY day, a guy would kill or die for that form of "not sex!!"

Anywhoo... That's what our pop culture has, for the past 40 years or so told us: date = sex. This is simply part 'n parcel of the (successful) plan to break down traditional American cultural mores in order to reshape our society in a more palatable (to socialists) form. Today, for the many raised in homes lacking any parental moral guidance (something intentionally caused by the feminization of our culture--in your faraway and exotic land, men are still men, you see, proudly so and women there like them that way!) anyone (male or female) born after about 1960 or so believes that if they have not had sex by age 12-13, there is something seriously wrong with them.

Our culture TELLS them this, quite blatantly and over and over and over in the advertising, music, movies...even kids' books!

Tokie

[sophia8]

(it's not gotten as bad in the US as it is in Holland where a 9-yr-old can "agree too" sex with an adult...but it will),
Uh-uh. NO. The age of consent in the Netherlands is 16, and having sex with a child under the age of 12 carries an automatic prison sentence. There is no presumption in Dutch law that a 9-year old can give any kind of consent to sex.

Tokie, stop reading those websites......

[volatile]

Anywhoo... That's what our pop culture has, for the past 40 years or so told us: date = sex. This is simply part 'n parcel of the (successful) plan to break down traditional American cultural mores in order to reshape our society in a more palatable (to socialists) form. Today, for the many raised in homes lacking any parental moral guidance (something intentionally caused by the feminization of our culture--in your faraway and exotic land, men are still men, you see, proudly so and women there like them that way!) anyone (male or female) born after about 1960 or so believes that if they have not had sex by age 12-13, there is something seriously wrong with them.

Our culture TELLS them this, quite blatantly and over and over and over in the advertising, music, movies...even kids' books!



You're bringing this up again?! It was pointed out to you in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=96375) that childhood sexuality is resolutely NOT an artefact of "pop culture". You dumped out of that thread when it was pointed out that you were wrong, but rather than listen and learn you're here posting the same debunked argument again?

[ponderingturtle]

Exactly what I meant by "emotional baggage" in my earlier post. Its already somewhat established that females tend to assign more emotional meaning to sex than do males. Add to that an extra decade of virginity for the female and the emotional connotations could be extreme.... even scary.

And, btw... GO COWBOYS!

After what age does someone who has not had sex mean that they have too much emotional baggage to deal with?

20? 25? 30?

It is good that we can get examples of the stigma that older not sexualy experianced people face right on this forum.

[Ivor the Engineer]

After what age does someone who has not had sex mean that they have too much emotional baggage to deal with?

20? 25? 30?

It is good that we can get examples of the stigma that older not sexually experienced people face right on this forum.

Didn't you know, PT, that sticking your penis in an orifice of another person's body is essential to you being a well-adjusted man! All the other stuff that happens in your life is merely incidental to your level of maturity and emotional stability.




Otherwise intelligent people can be so full of crap sometimes.

[Lonewulf]

Didn't you know, PT, that sticking your penis in an orifice of another person's body is essential to you being a well-adjusted man! All the other stuff that happens in your life is merely incidental to your level of maturity and emotional stability.




Otherwise intelligent people can be so full of crap sometimes.

I hate to say it, but I'm going to have to agree with you here.

[madurobob]

After what age does someone who has not had sex mean that they have too much emotional baggage to deal with?

20? 25? 30?

It is good that we can get examples of the stigma that older not sexualy experianced people face right on this forum.

Yep - I knew this was coming... a knee-jerk reaction assuming I'm a pig. Actually, I think I already admitted to this.

Its not that I think an older-than-average virgin is offensive in any way, its that I'm lazy. As pointed out earlier in this thread, the virgin and I are likely to be on very different pages sexually and it may be that it would be best for both of us if we stop before we go too far.

Neither is virginity a deal-breaker in and of itself. If everything else is absolutely fantastic then virginity ceases to be an issue. Obviously, there are different levels of emotional significance we all place on sex and it is easier for both people if the significance is more or less the same for each. If there are several indicators - virginity being one - that your potential partner is placing far more emotional significance on sex than you are, then it is best to avoid sex unless you are already committed to a long term relationship with them.

[SomeGuy]

Actually I would love to meet up with a female virgin as then there are no "expectations." It's really limiting when you know your first time you won't pleasure the woman at all (assuming she isn't a virgin) whilst knowing that by this age I'm expected to be able to.

Not being particulary gifted myself (I think), I can honestly tell you that it's extremely hard to botch cunninlingus(sp).

[ponderingturtle]

Yep - I knew this was coming... a knee-jerk reaction assuming I'm a pig. Actually, I think I already admitted to this.

Its not that I think an older-than-average virgin is offensive in any way, its that I'm lazy. As pointed out earlier in this thread, the virgin and I are likely to be on very different pages sexually and it may be that it would be best for both of us if we stop before we go too far.

Neither is virginity a deal-breaker in and of itself. If everything else is absolutely fantastic then virginity ceases to be an issue. Obviously, there are different levels of emotional significance we all place on sex and it is easier for both people if the significance is more or less the same for each. If there are several indicators - virginity being one - that your potential partner is placing far more emotional significance on sex than you are, then it is best to avoid sex unless you are already committed to a long term relationship with them.

No the point is that you are making assumptions about why they have not had sex and make assumptions about their character because of that.

[ponderingturtle]

Not being particulary gifted myself (I think), I can honestly tell you that it's extremely hard to botch cunninlingus(sp).

Just remember, seizure disorders and oral sex do not go well together.

[madurobob]

No the point is that you are making assumptions about why they have not had sex and make assumptions about their character because of that.

Ummm... I think you're making assumptions about what assumptions I've made. I've said nothing to suggest there is some character flaw implicit in being an older than average virgin nor have I said anything about why they may be a virgin.

Out of curiosity, what assumptions do you believe I've made?

[ponderingturtle]

Ummm... I think you're making assumptions about what assumptions I've made. I've said nothing to suggest there is some character flaw implicit in being an older than average virgin nor have I said anything about why they may be a virgin.

Out of curiosity, what assumptions do you believe I've made?

All this talk of emotional baggage and such.

[madurobob]

All this talk of emotional baggage and such.

Fair enough. However, I tried to make it clear that by "emotional baggage" I meant the emotional significance ascribed by the virgin to this pending first-time experience, not to any possible previous psychological "scars".

To me, "emotional baggage" carries no implicit value judgment. We all carry emotional baggage by virtue of being thinking, feeling, emotional creatures. The baggage itself is neither good nor bad, its just there and should be acknowledged.

[ponderingturtle]

Fair enough. However, I tried to make it clear that by "emotional baggage" I meant the emotional significance ascribed by the virgin to this pending first-time experience, not to any possible previous psychological "scars".

To me, "emotional baggage" carries no implicit value judgment. We all carry emotional baggage by virtue of being thinking, feeling, emotional creatures. The baggage itself is neither good nor bad, its just there and should be acknowledged.

Maybe, but I have seen that arguement presented as justification that there must be something seriously wrong with such a person and that did not seem to be all that seperate from your position.

There is certainly a strong stigma ammoung some people about older virgins, regardless of the truth of the story in the OP.

[Rasmus]

Ummm... I think you're making assumptions about what assumptions I've made. I've said nothing to suggest there is some character flaw implicit in being an older than average virgin nor have I said anything about why they may be a virgin.

Out of curiosity, what assumptions do you believe I've made?

For example that they have chosen to not have sex because they'd apply some degree of importance to it or were hoping to have certain expectations met.

But some people might just be more shy than others, or perhaps they are waiting for the right partner without also assuming that the moment they have sex with someone they need to get married and stay together happily ever after. It might just not be an issue for them alltogether, really.

It doesn't seem quite fair to judge all of this just by that one tiny fact, no?

[madurobob]

It doesn't seem quite fair to judge all of this just by that one tiny fact, no?

Of course. Thats why I pointed out that if everything else (in the relationship) is wonderful, then virginity ceases to be an issue. I also pointed out that even if everything is not wonderful virginity is just one of several potential issues.

Still, the discussion here is about something that is well outside of "average". As such, it is somewhat dishonest to be aghast at people recognizing that it is outside of expectations and worthy of question. Consider the 35 year old who still lives with his parents. There is nothing wrong with that and the guy may be the most well-adjusted person you'll meet, but most people will wonder why he still lives with his parents. Its only when you get to know the individual that you can make any informed decision.

[Darth Rotor]

For me at least, the issue is not acrobatics or skill. It's the fact that any woman who has made it into her late 20s or 30s without having sex almost certainly has a wildly different attitude towards sex than me. If she's been waiting for "the right guy," that implies a lot of expectations (relationship-wise, not performance-wise), and I might not be ready to fulfill those.
In re the bolded part. So what? A different attitude does not mean the two of you won't connect, if your personalities mesh well enough, and you are both in it for something other than "what's in it for me?" If all one is doing is pleasuring one's self with another's flesh, OK, I get it, one would want another mercenary with whom to indulge in that form of the sport.

IN the case of an adult virgin, some people want to wait for the right kind of person, someone they have an ability to trust with their whole, exposed self. Getting physically intimate with someone is a huge leap of trust for a lot of people. There is considerable emotional risk involved. Not everyone is as "devil may care" as I was, and some of my bed mates, in my twenties.

DR

[El_Spectre]

While we're on the subject, do you think it's harder or easier for a male virgin?

It's harder, but it doesn't last as long :)

(yes, I like 12 year old humor)

[Dunstan]

In re the bolded part. So what? A different attitude does not mean the two of you won't connect, if your personalities mesh well enough, and you are both in it for something other than "what's in it for me?" If all one is doing is pleasuring one's self with another's flesh, OK, I get it, one would want another mercenary with whom to indulge in that form of the sport.

IN the case of an adult virgin, some people want to wait for the right kind of person, someone they have an ability to trust with their whole, exposed self. Getting physically intimate with someone is a huge leap of trust for a lot of people. There is considerable emotional risk involved. Not everyone is as "devil may care" as I was, and some of my bed mates, in my twenties.

You're implying that it has to be one or the other. Just because I'd rather not sleep with someone who is making "a huge leap of trust," taking "considerable emotional risk," and thinks it means they trust me "with their whole, exposed self," I don't think that means that I'm just a "mercenary" indulging in "sport" who only cares about "what's in it for me." Just because I don't have to be in love with someone to sleep with her doesn't mean that I don't care about her at all.

Otherwise, you're making my point for me. Adult virgins are likely (not certain, not all, I realize there are exceptions, but we're talking hypotheticals here anyway) to attach high importance and emotional value on sex. In the highly unlikely event that I am ever confronted with this situation, I would be worried about hurting her and reluctant to go down that road. That's all.

[madurobob]

There is certainly a strong stigma ammoung some people about older virgins, regardless of the truth of the story in the OP.

I think "stigma" is a strong term - at least from the posts I've seen on this thread. Rather, its just another thing to consider. If I'm dating a woman who I understand to be otherwise Good, Giving and Game (with apologies to Dan Savage) then her virginity will not be an issue for me and probably not for her either.

On the other hand, if she is making a very big deal about her virginity it is a cue to me to re-evaluate where the relationship is going. Its a cue to have an in-depth discussion with her about expectations. If our expectations turn out to not align, then parting company may be the best course. I don't see that as having a hang up about virginity, I see it as being honest.

[Travis]

Uh ... feel free to not answer, but how do you know this?

If the girls my friends date are anything to go by (and they seem pretty average) the gal I have my first time with will have been with 25-35 men and I doubt I will compare well.

Now if they're like my cousin who's been with over a 100 men (and she's only 22) then I'm in real trouble.

[quixotecoyote]

If the girls my friends date are anything to go by (and they seem pretty average) the gal I have my first time with will have been with 25-35 men and I doubt I will compare well.

Now if they're like my cousin who's been with over a 100 men (and she's only 22) then I'm in real trouble.
I believe your numbers are off.

http://www.physorg.com/news10824.html

[Rasmus]

If the girls my friends date are anything to go by (and they seem pretty average) the gal I have my first time with will have been with 25-35 men and I doubt I will compare well.

Even if true, that'd be a long shot from "not pleasing her at all".

Also: Yes, they might have had better. But it's just as possible that they've had worse. I don't know anything that, if i do it, I'll expect it to be "the best ever". I am not dissapointed if I go watch a movie and it doesn't turn out to be the best film I've ever seen. I don't mind if the take away I have for dinner isn't the best food I've ever tasted. Sex isn't any different in that regard. On the contrary, there's just very little that afterwards I whish I hadn't had. If any, really.

Now if they're like my cousin who's been with over a 100 men (and she's only 22) then I'm in real trouble.

No, why would you?

Such a person doesn't strike me as very picky or demanding. No offense. It's like hamburgers vs three course meals. I have lots of the former, without many expectations. And if one isn't as good as I'd hope for, it's usally still good enough. On the other hand, if I go through all the trouble of ordering a large meal I'd see it as more of a problem if it wasn't worth said trouble. (And even then, not a huge problem at all.)

[Tokenconservative]

If the girls my friends date are anything to go by (and they seem pretty average) the gal I have my first time with will have been with 25-35 men and I doubt I will compare well.

Now if they're like my cousin who's been with over a 100 men (and she's only 22) then I'm in real trouble.

What do you mean by "been with"?

I am old, so to me that means "engaged in actual sexual intercourse involving the penis' penetration of the vagina."

Is that what you mean? Or something else.

Remember, today, it all depends on what your (personal) definition of "is" is.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Yes, but only in lesbian relationships.

I'm sure the Oprah crowd would find a way to argue with even that.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

You're bringing this up again?! It was pointed out to you in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=96375) that childhood sexuality is resolutely NOT an artefact of "pop culture". You dumped out of that thread when it was pointed out that you were wrong, but rather than listen and learn you're here posting the same debunked argument again?

Hmmm...dumped out of...?

No, I don't think so. Notice something: when Tokie be in da house, the vast majority of posts are aimed at da Tokieman.

I am but one man.

No, nothing of the sort was proved--PROOOOOVVVVEEEEEEEDDDDD!!!--at least not to me. Somebody saying "nuh, uh!!!" is not way up there on the "proof" scale for me, anyway.

The reality is, there has been a if not coordinated, at least concentrated drive to sexualize younger and younger kids in American pop culture beginning in the late 1960s. Today, our pop culture puts forth little girl figures (if not actual little girls, tho often enuff they are) such as Britney (sp?) and those twins, etc., etc.

These are pre-adult females who are marketed as sexually available to the adult male market. This, by the way, is prevalent in ALL pop culture from commercials where virtually anytime you see a teen/pubescent female she is suggestively clad and where younger and younger boys are encouraged to have striking abs and pecs etc. (indicating an often dangerously low body fat content).

So, unless you can show me that TV commercials in say, 1960, often included little girls dressed in slutwear, then I guess you haven't PROOOOOVVEEEEEDDDDDDDD!! nuthin.

Tokie

[volatile]

So, unless you can show me that TV commercials in say, 1960, often included little girls dressed in slutwear, then I guess you haven't PROOOOOVVEEEEEDDDDDDDD!! nuthin.



Two examples off the top of my head:

Vladimir Nabakov wrote 'Lolita' in 1955.
Maurice Chevalier wrote "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" in 1958.


You're so wrong.

[tkingdoll]

So TV commercials featuring young girls in slutty clothing is the only marker of the sexualisation of children in society?

When was this decided?

[ponderingturtle]

Two examples off the top of my head:

Vladimir Nabakov wrote 'Lolita' in 1955.
Maurice Chevalier wrote "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" in 1958.


You're so wrong.

Check out Girl 27. It is about the musicals of the late 1930 in Hollywood, and in particular one rape.

The girl(she was 17, many chorus girls where underage, but with rhythm and dance they where taken as loose women by the men there), was invited out to what seemed to be a film shoot, with about 180 chorus girls in costume. What it really was, was a party for MGM's salesmen all 120 of them. Add in 300 cases of champaign and 300 cases of scotch and you have a real party. One girl(at least) was raped.

When basically MGM bought it way out of any and all legal problems, having the DA be a good friend of the company was a big help. The newspapers let everyone know that the victim was a loose woman as well.

Yep that was the real golden age, when men could really do what they wanted sure that prosecution would never be a real issue.

[volatile]

Check out Girl 27. It is about the musicals of the late 1930 in Hollywood, and in particular one rape.


Wait? 1930? :confused:

But I thought it was feminists and television that sexualised kids! The Second Sex wasn't published until 1949, and TV wasn't widespread until the late 1940s either! How can there have been dancing, provocatively dressed kids before then?!?! You mean the issue is more nuanced and more complex than Bill O'Reilly and Anne Coulter told me it was? Why would they lie to me?

[Lonewulf]

Theory: Humans are horny.

Theory: Many humans can be unscrupulous.

Theory: Horny + Unscrupulous men can lead to rape.

[madurobob]

Theory: Humans are horny.

Theory: Many humans can be unscrupulous.

Theory: Horny + Unscrupulous men can lead to rape.

And, apropos to Ponderingturtle's post, please add:

Theory: Alcohol and other available substances greatly reduce inhibitions on both sides, effectively obfuscating claims of "rape".

(make her drink, get her drunk, get her to not be able to say no... easier to convince the DA of no "rape")

[ponderingturtle]

And, apropos to Ponderingturtle's post, please add:

Theory: Alcohol and other available substances greatly reduce inhibitions on both sides, effectively obfuscating claims of "rape".

(make her drink, get her drunk, get her to not be able to say no... easier to convince the DA of no "rape")

Owning the doctor doing the examination can help as well, the cold water douches before being examined might not have been best from an evidence point of view.

It does not seem that she actualy drank anything, not that it matters, it was easy enough to paint her as a party girl with out any activity on her part.

[Tokenconservative]

So TV commercials featuring young girls in slutty clothing is the only marker of the sexualisation of children in society?

When was this decided?

No, it's not.

So your question needs no answer.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Two examples off the top of my head:

Vladimir Nabakov wrote 'Lolita' in 1955.
Maurice Chevalier wrote "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" in 1958.


You're so wrong.


LOL.

I love this sort of leftist reasoning: because pedophiles existed before (x date) that means that the argument that we have been sexualizing younger and younger children in our culture (American) is "so wrong."

LOL!

So let's expand this argument: since virtually no one argues that the war against the Nazis was not necessary, that must mean that the war in Iraq is necessary...right?

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Wait? 1930? :confused:

But I thought it was feminists and television that sexualised kids! The Second Sex wasn't published until 1949, and TV wasn't widespread until the late 1940s either! How can there have been dancing, provocatively dressed kids before then?!?! You mean the issue is more nuanced and more complex than Bill O'Reilly and Anne Coulter told me it was? Why would they lie to me?

Again, some musical or play nobody heard of and fewer attended, is not the same. It did not have the prevalence in society in the 1930s that TV does in our today...nice comparison of apples to Zir sedans, though

Sheesh.

I always wonder in these "debates": is there anyone in here who, putting aside your visceral and natural hatred of Tokie (because I am not a lockstep lib) who actually understands rational, logical discourse (and I know there are a few of you) who looks at something like this from volitile and I think it was ImagineDisc who recognizes how anti-logical this is?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Or do you recognize it and are you either too fearful to speak up or to paralyzed by your own ideology?

Sheesh.

[Tokenconservative]

Check out Girl 27. It is about the musicals of the late 1930 in Hollywood, and in particular one rape.

The girl(she was 17, many chorus girls where underage, but with rhythm and dance they where taken as loose women by the men there), was invited out to what seemed to be a film shoot, with about 180 chorus girls in costume. What it really was, was a party for MGM's salesmen all 120 of them. Add in 300 cases of champaign and 300 cases of scotch and you have a real party. One girl(at least) was raped.

When basically MGM bought it way out of any and all legal problems, having the DA be a good friend of the company was a big help. The newspapers let everyone know that the victim was a loose woman as well.

Yep that was the real golden age, when men could really do what they wanted sure that prosecution would never be a real issue.

LOL!

My God!

Does NO ONE see how anti-logical this is?

So let me see if I follow the reasoning here: a 17 yr-old (that was an adult, at the time...not legally, but my mom and most of her sister left home at 16 in the 1930s....) girl in 1930 was raped, therefore younger and younger girls are NOT being sexualized more today than in the past by our pop culture.

Ah.

Brilliant.

Just brilliant....how can you argue with this sort of "reasoning"? Well...since it is at best ana-reasoning (and is really anti-reasoning) you can't. And it's wrong in PC-thought to do so, anyway. We all know that culturally, things are far better today, because white men are all evil.

Oh.

Whyn't you say so!?

Sheesh.

Tokie

[zombiebex]

Wow. Is it way too late to comment on the OP?

[Lonewulf]

Wow. Is it way too late to comment on the OP?
Unfortunately, yes. Tokenconservative tends to hog up the spotlight wherever he goes.

[Tokenconservative]

Wow. Is it way too late to comment on the OP?


Not at all.

But be warned, because certain...thinkers, are unable to cope with those who come at life with a different perspective, any time Tokie be in da house, the issue becomes: how do we get Tokie to go away and stop making fun of our mindless, blinkered, knee-jerk views on things?

But give 'er the ol' college try!

Tokie

[Beerina]

What has this made up story got to do with anything? Is it supposed to reflect reality? Because I don't think it does.

While a guy who wants some quick nookie might drop her, she should probably be fine with that anyway.


The reverse is different, however. Men's magazines aren't loaded with dating advice columns telling men that a woman who is a virgin at 30 must have something seriously wrong with her. But pick up a random issue of Cosmo...

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Such a person doesn't strike me as very picky or demanding. No offense. It's like hamburgers vs three course meals. I have lots of the former, without many expectations. And if one isn't as good as I'd hope for, it's usally still good enough. On the other hand, if I go through all the trouble of ordering a large meal I'd see it as more of a problem if it wasn't worth said trouble. (And even then, not a huge problem at all.)

Do you eat out a lot?

[Tokenconservative]

While a guy who wants some quick nookie might drop her, she should probably be fine with that anyway.


The reverse is different, however. Men's magazines aren't loaded with dating advice columns telling men that a woman who is a virgin at 30 must have something seriously wrong with her. But pick up a random issue of Cosmo...

If she's a virgin by choice at 30, that's one thing. If she is truly so butt-ugly that it just never happened (I find this highly improbable: ugly is as ugly does...even the Elephant Man could find someone on his "level" of attractiveness...), that's another kettle of fish.

I don't read men's mags or women's issue mags. Too boring. Sometimes the wife will bring a women's mag into the house. Typically, they cover is lathered with lurid enticements about how to make it the "best sex" of either your (the woman's) or his (I suppose that means her Sex and the City-ish pickup of an evening) life!

How can they do this week after week. I mean, let's face it, firstly, it's not too difficult to make it "the best sex of his life!!" Most men aren't terribly...let's call it "discriminating" when it comes to what makes sex "best." Secondly, most of these mags have been doing this since at least the late 70s (when I met my to-be wife and she read Cosmo then)...I mean, as a younger man I fancied myself quite...skilled. But my, God...after 30 or 40 years, they must've pretty much exhausted all possibilities!

I guess, given our culture's sexualization of younger and younger women (many of these same mags have "teen" versions offering virtually the same advice) there's always a new crop coming along, eh?

Tokie

[volatile]

LOL.

I love this sort of leftist reasoning: because pedophiles existed before (x date) that means that the argument that we have been sexualizing younger and younger children in our culture (American) is "so wrong."

Errrmmm.... 1) you haven't read "Lolita", have you? Or heard that Gainsborough tune? They're not about pedophilia per se, but they resolutely do sexualise children. And 2) they existed before 1960, which is what you asked for. So you're "wrong" that post-1960s American culture sexualises children in an unprecedented way... That's why you're wrong.

I did not say that sexualising children wasn't wrong.

[volatile]

So let me see if I follow the reasoning here: a 17 yr-old (that was an adult, at the time...not legally, but my mom and most of her sister left home at 16 in the 1930s....) girl in 1930 was raped, therefore younger and younger girls are NOT being sexualized more today than in the past by our pop culture.


Way to miss the point again, TC. The point being made was that the stage shows of the 1930s featured provocatively dressed teenagers. Young gilrs were sexualised by popular culture when your mother was young. The 1960s had nothing to do with it. "Feminists" had nothing to do with it. TV had nothing to do with it.

This is NOT a new phenomenon, even though you claim (with no evidence) that it is. How can we explain this to you so that it sinks in?

[Travis]

Intriguing that we do not have any skepchicks in here that are virgins but multiple skepdudes that are virgins. I wonder what might account for that?

[Tokenconservative]

Errrmmm.... 1) you haven't read "Lolita", have you? Or heard that Gainsborough tune? They're not about pedophilia per se, but they resolutely do sexualise children. And 2) they existed before 1960, which is what you asked for. So you're "wrong" that post-1960s American culture sexualises children in an unprecedented way... That's why you're wrong.

I did not say that sexualising children wasn't wrong.


Oh...yeah, you're right. Because like TV and modern music...Lolita and this ancient song were an overwhelming presence in our homes 24/7/365.

Yeah...I rescind everything I said before.

Question: all of the brilliant debators in here...whenever I engage in some logical fallacy, you leap down my throat like a load of cold virus...but when one of your own does the same thing (unknowingly, which is different from the way I do it)...you can cut the silence with a dull rebuttal.

I wonder why that is?

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Intriguing that we do not have any skepchicks in here that are virgins but multiple skepdudes that are virgins. I wonder what might account for that?

Interesting observation.

One possibility is that many of the guys who spend their time in places like this are not terribly attractive to women on a number of different levels, and so have a hard time losing their virginity, whereas (in my experience, anyway) pretty much anything with the basic female equipment can, if that thing so chooses, "get some" just about anytime she wants. I see gawdawful ugly broads alla time, that have kids, for example (I am assuming they are not adopted, yes).

And before the howling begins: I don't count myself in the group mentioned above as I am an old guy, and "back in the day," got, as they say, more'n my share. Much more, actually. That's not a good thing in my view today, it's just what it is.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Way to miss the point again, TC. The point being made was that the stage shows of the 1930s featured provocatively dressed teenagers. Young gilrs were sexualised by popular culture when your mother was young. The 1960s had nothing to do with it. "Feminists" had nothing to do with it. TV had nothing to do with it.

This is NOT a new phenomenon, even though you claim (with no evidence) that it is. How can we explain this to you so that it sinks in?

While there was no doubt much "winky-winky" going on in these shows, I can assure you that in the 1930s and '40...50s and even early 60s, the producers of these shows had to "prove" that these girls were at least 18 and probably 21. Now, in the 40s, lots of kids as young as 13 managed to get themselves into the military by simply coming in from the farm and sayin "nope...I'm 18 (the age might've been 16, I don't know). You see, unlike today, not everybody had a DL or even SS card back then. It was a...different time. If you told an employer you were 18, they did not make you fill out 62 forms and produce a DL, a SS card, 6 credit cards an affidavit from 6 people and your shoe size to prove it.

So, when those girls showed up to work as dancers, they were 18 or older even if they were not. Men always like younger-LOOKING females, by the way, because that represents greater fecundity. But had they shown a female schoolmate on say, Leave it to Beaver who was overtly sexualized as any/every pubescent girl is on TV today, the show would've been shut down.

Look at Gilligan's Island (late 60s). Two girls on that show, both sexualized in different ways (sexy farmgirl/sexy starlet) both clearly adult. Where was the 14-yr-old girl in tiny little short skirts, spike heels and a belly and breast-baring top? Did I miss her? I looked pretty damned hard at Mary Ann (Ginger did nothing for me), but I did not see her little sister....

Just because there was a winky-winky approach in the industry toward hiring underage dancers, does not mean that the larger culture was awash in sexulized girls at very young ages. They did not trot these girls out on stage and announce that they were (or represented) 13 yr-olds, did they?

Tokie

[Mashuna]

Question: all of the brilliant debators in here...whenever I engage in some logical fallacy, you leap down my throat like a load of cold virus...but when one of your own does the same thing (unknowingly, which is different from the way I do it)...you can cut the silence with a dull rebuttal.

I wonder why that is?

Tokie

Well, I'm no master debater, like you Tokie (I think that's how people refer to you, isn't it)? Anyway, I'd just like to say how much I admire your position of 'every time I make a stupid, illogical or half-witted statement, I'm doing it on purpose just to get a reaction.' It's a clever debating technique when six year olds use it, and I'm glad to see you've stuck with it. Keep it up sir!

[Region Rat]

Intriguing that we do not have any skepchicks in here that are virgins but multiple skepdudes that are virgins. I wonder what might account for that?

Maybe not so intriguing if you consider that just about any female who decides she wants to have sex can go out and find a willing partner, but a willing man still needs to have some 'negotiating' skills, or get lucky enough to find a slut.

In other words, there are more mimbo's than bimbo's by a long shot.:D

[Travis]

Maybe not so intriguing if you consider that just about any female who decides she wants to have sex can go out and find a willing partner, but a willing man still needs to have some 'negotiating' skills, or get lucky enough to find a slut.

In other words, there are more mimbo's than bimbo's by a long shot.:D

So my hypotheses that skepchicks are promiscuous isn't going to work.

Drat.

Of course what kind of a hypotheses would a "maladjusted socially abnormal ugly freak" create.

[Lonewulf]

So my hypotheses that skepchicks are promiscuous isn't going to work.

Drat.

Of course what kind of a hypotheses would a "maladjusted socially abnormal ugly freak" create.

Well, you could always choose to be gay, and have promiscuous sex that way. :D

[Travis]

Well, you could always choose to be gay, and have promiscuous sex that way. :D

Even if there were possible I doubt they'd be interested in an ugly freak.:)

[Ivor the Engineer]

So my hypotheses that skepchicks are promiscuous isn't going to work.

Drat.

Of course what kind of a hypotheses would a "maladjusted socially abnormal ugly freak" create.

Ones that allow him to wallow in self pity?

[Tokenconservative]

Well, I'm no master debater, like you Tokie (I think that's how people refer to you, isn't it)? Anyway, I'd just like to say how much I admire your position of 'every time I make a stupid, illogical or half-witted statement, I'm doing it on purpose just to get a reaction.' It's a clever debating technique when six year olds use it, and I'm glad to see you've stuck with it. Keep it up sir!

LOL!

At least you can be funny when you say stupid stuff like this (do you need the mods' link to report me for saying what you said was stupid, or can you find it yourself?).

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Ones that allow him to wallow in self pity?

Ones that swallow what, now?

[Tokenconservative]

Well, you could always choose to be gay, and have promiscuous sex that way. :D

Gay guys usta hit on me alla time. I was really cute.

I think you demonstrate your homophobia and bigotry by assuming first, that all Gays have promiscuous sex and that all Gay men will hump mud if it moves around a bit.

Now, you just need to demonstrate your anti-Semitism, and your cred as a card-carrying lefty will be complete.

Tokie

[volatile]

LOL!

At least you can be funny when you say stupid stuff like this (do you need the mods' link to report me for saying what you said was stupid, or can you find it yourself?).

Tokie

In the quote below, did you, or did do not, say that you made logical fallacies "knowingly"? It certainly seems that way:



Question: all of the brilliant debators in here...whenever I engage in some logical fallacy, you leap down my throat like a load of cold virus...but when one of your own does the same thing (unknowingly, which is different from the way I do it)...you can cut the silence with a dull rebuttal.
(bolding mine)

How is that different from a six-year old, when called in a lie, or an error, saying "I knew that all along, I was just joking"?

[Tokenconservative]

In the quote below, did you, or did do not, say that you made logical fallacies "knowingly"? It certainly seems that way:

(bolding mine)

How is that different from a six-year old, when called in a lie, or an error, saying "I knew that all along, I was just joking"?

Um...it's not much different, so that's a pretty good analogy.

Did I SAY it was different?

Do you know what is the logical fallacy you have engaged in here...can you name it? If not, can you at least describe it so I'll at least know you have...let's call it an "instinctive" understanding?

Tokie

[volatile]

Gay guys usta hit on me alla time. I was really cute.

I think you demonstrate your homophobia and bigotry by assuming first, that all Gays have promiscuous sex and that all Gay men will hump mud if it moves around a bit.

Now, you just need to demonstrate your anti-Semitism, and your cred as a card-carrying lefty will be complete.

Tokie


"Card-carrying leftys" are homophobic?!?!?!?!?! What?! :jaw-dropp

[volatile]

Um...it's not much different, so that's a pretty good analogy.

Did I SAY it was different?

You said it was "stupid", so I'd unsurprisingly concluded that you didn't agree with it. Sorry about that. :rolleyes:

Tokie - you said you used fallacies knowingly. Do you? If you do, then the analogy is appropriate, and calling Mashuna "stupid" is entirely baseless.

I don't think you really do use fallacies "knowingly". I think you make fallacy after fallacy after fallacy because you're ignorant of the issues you try to debate, and stubborn in the face of evidence that refutes your so-called arguments. I think you just say that you use fallacies "knowingly" because it makes you feel better to think of yourself as an ass than a moron.

Which fallacies, of the many you've made here, did you make "knowingly"?

[Tokenconservative]

"Card-carrying leftys" are homophobic?!?!?!?!?! What?! :jaw-dropp

Um...yeah....lefty's base everything on differences of race, sexuality, income, etc.

That means it's lefties who are the bigots and they actually FEAR gays, where as most conservatives don't have a care in the world about gays as long as gay proselytizers are not jamming their leftist agenda down someone's throat.

But I am glad to see that you agree that lefties are indeed anti-Semites.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Tokie - you said you used fallacies knowingly. Do you? If you do, then the analogy is appropriate, and calling Mashuna "stupid" is entirely baseless.

I don't think you really do use fallacies "knowingly". I think you make fallacy after fallacy after fallacy because you're ignorant of the issues you try to debate, and stubborn in the face of evidence that refutes your so-called arguments. I think you just say that you use fallacies "knowingly" because it makes you feel better to think of yourself as an ass than a moron.

Which fallacies, of the many you've made here, did you make "knowingly"?

LOL.

Wow. You keep piling them oh, huh?

First things first: answer the question I posed. I need to know that the person with whom I am debating (masterdebating?) the finer points of rational discourse, actually understands a thing or three about the subject.

If you don't, while it's fun to run circles around you, it's not AS fun as when you actually have some chance of scoring a hit or two.

Pulling wings off flies is fun enough, but after the 50th or 60th set of wings has piled up, it begins to get boring, unnerstand?

Tokie

[Lonewulf]

Um...yeah....lefty's base everything on differences of race, sexuality, income, etc.

That means it's lefties who are the bigots and they actually FEAR gays, where as most conservatives don't have a care in the world about gays as long as gay proselytizers are not jamming their leftist agenda down someone's throat.

LOL.

:D

[Tokenconservative]

You said it was "stupid", so I'd unsurprisingly concluded that you didn't agree with it. Sorry about that. :rolleyes:



Actually, I wasn't paying much attention to what you were saying, and am just fishing around trying to figure out who keeps reporting me to the mods for "insulting" them. Everybody, so far, has denied it, so either it's an especially Church Ladyish lurker, or a liar...

Tokie

[volatile]

Um...yeah....lefty's base everything on differences of race, sexuality, income, etc.

You think the LEFT is homophobic?!!!!?!?!?

Sorry, I'm gonna give you a chance to retract that statement, as it's pretty much the most stupid thing you've ever said. I'll give you the chance to retract it, as I can only assume it's an error.




That means it's lefties who are the bigots and they actually FEAR gays, where as most conservatives don't have a care in the world about gays as long as gay proselytizers are not jamming their leftist agenda down someone's throat.


Errrm.... what? How many lefists were trying to ban gay marriage? How many leftists opposed the repeal of Section 7 laws in the UK? How many leftists opposed the lowering of homosexual ages of consent? How many leftists have you ever heard even use the phrases "gay proselytizers" and "gay agenda", themselves homophobic statements?

Evidence that leftists "fear" gays?

You get more insane with every passing day.

But I am glad to see that you agree that lefties are indeed anti-Semites.



I agreed no such thing, thanks. Are you calling the Ayran Nation leftist?

[volatile]

LOL.

Wow. You keep piling them oh, huh?

First things first: answer the question I posed. I need to know that the person with whom I am debating (masterdebating?) the finer points of rational discourse, actually understands a thing or three about the subject.

If you don't, while it's fun to run circles around you, it's not AS fun as when you actually have some chance of scoring a hit or two.

Pulling wings off flies is fun enough, but after the 50th or 60th set of wings has piled up, it begins to get boring, unnerstand?

Tokie


Do I know what fallacy I made? Sadly not. Please enlighten me. I suspect you're quite the expert on them, going on how often you use them yourself.

Knowingly, of course.

[volatile]

Actually, I wasn't paying much attention to what you were saying, and am just fishing around trying to figure out who keeps reporting me to the mods for "insulting" them. Everybody, so far, has denied it, so either it's an especially Church Ladyish lurker, or a liar...

Tokie

Wasn't me.

Now you are paying attention, care to get back to the discussion in hand? Do you use fallacies "knowingly", or not?

[Tokenconservative]

Do I know what fallacy I made? Sadly not. Please enlighten me. I suspect you're quite the expert on them, going on how often you use them yourself.

Knowingly, of course.

Initially, you employed an ad hom, followed in the post mentioned here by a strawman.

Tokie

[volatile]

Initially, you employed an ad hom, followed in the post mentioned here by a strawman.

Tokie

No ad hom in my original post, sorry.

I did use a strawman in the last post (see - "Did you say Ayran Nation was leftist?"), but only to illustrate yours. Knowingly.

;)

[Tokenconservative]

Wasn't me.

Now you are paying attention, care to get back to the discussion in hand? Do you use fallacies "knowingly", or not?

Yes, I do. Sometimes, I'll admit, I slip into them unconsciously, and will only then figger out I have, but since I gave up arguing logically with libs years ago, you'll have to forgive me.

It's a habit by now.

The difference 'twixt thee and I, is that if it's pointed up to me, I know what it is (I may or may not admit that I did it, of course...depends on my mood) or yes, indeed, I did so on purpose, just for the sheer exhiliration!

Any other questions?

Tokie

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

No ad hom in my original post, sorry.

I did use a strawman in the last post, but only to illustrate yours. Knowingly.

;)

1. Sorry, I'm carrying on a couple of "debates" along this same line right now...was it not you who called me a "six year old"?

2. Hmm...but for some reason, you were unable to identify it as such, though you seem to know the term...very strange.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

You think the LEFT is homophobic?!!!!?!?!?

Sorry, I'm gonna give you a chance to retract that statement, as it's pretty much the most stupid thing you've ever said. I'll give you the chance to retract it, as I can only assume it's an error.

Errrm.... what? How many lefists were trying to ban gay marriage? How many leftists opposed the repeal of Section 7 laws in the UK? How many leftists opposed the lowering of homosexual ages of consent? How many leftists have you ever heard even use the phrases "gay proselytizers" and "gay agenda", themselves homophobic statements?

Evidence that leftists "fear" gays?

You get more insane with every passing day.

I agreed no such thing, thanks. Are you calling the Ayran Nation leftist?

I only retract things I say in error....

Leftists are by far the most bigoted, prejudiced people, by ideological standard, around these days, and are very practiced at projectionism, to wit: conservatives are "Nazis" (National ...SOCIALISTS!?) and "racist" (who is it who destroyed the black family in America with Great Society programs...I misremember...).

It's clear lefties hope to keep certain populations forever out of the mainstream. This is a form of racism when practiced against blacks, destroying their families, a once vibrant and wonderful sub-culture, and it's clear they want gays to be as far from the mainstream as possible so they will remain disenfranchised and therefore can be expected to vote left, as it's the left that will continue to promise to give them special rights, whereas the right will simply say : you are Americans like the rest of us, you don't get speical rights and your right to act stops at my nose.

How are either of those statements "gay agenda" or "gay proselytizers" homophobic....wait...you know what "phobic" means, right...I may be making another assumption that's getting me in trouble.

Tokie

[Lonewulf]

Leftists are by far the most bigoted, prejudiced people, by ideological standard, around these days, and are very practiced at projectionism, to wit: conservatives are "Nazis" (National ...SOCIALISTS!?
LOL!

Sure, yeah. People called conservatives "Nazis", instead of saying that "Nazis" held rightist values. You sure got THAT one right.

As far as I recall, you had yet to explain a single change Nazis supported that could be described as "leftist".

[volatile]

1. Sorry, I'm carrying on a couple of "debates" along this same line right now...was it not you who called me a "six year old"?

2. Hmm...but for some reason, you were unable to identify it as such, though you seem to know the term...very strange.

Tokie

I only re-phrased Mashuna's original statement, seeing as you had a hard time understanding it as originally stated.

Nevertheless, saying your "knowing" use of fallacies was analogous to the debate tactics of a six-year-old is not, at all, a strawman. Your second point is thus pretty amusing, and you might want to look up the definition of the term before you use it again (and especially before you accuse others of not knowing what it means).

[volatile]

I only retract things I say in error....

So you think the Left are homophobic then. Right, please excuse me whilst I bust out the laughing dog.

:dl:

Leftists are by far the most bigoted, prejudiced people, by ideological standard, around these days, and are very practiced at projectionism, to wit: conservatives are "Nazis" (National ...SOCIALISTS!?) and "racist" (who is it who destroyed the black family in America with Great Society programs...I misremember...).

Let's concentrate on the homophobia - there's another thread for the questions of similarty between the left and the Nazis (which, I see, you haven't posted in for a while).

Which side of the political spectrum, in the US or elsewhere, has consistently opposed gay marriage? Which side has consistently opposed the lowering of sexual consent ages for homosexuals? Which side has opposed teaching about homosexuality and homosexual acts in schools? Left, or right?

It's clear lefties hope to keep certain populations forever out of the mainstream.

It is? Please refer to my questions above? It certainly seems like you've got your lefts and rights confused.

This is a form of racism when practiced against blacks, destroying their families, a once vibrant and wonderful sub-culture, and it's clear they want gays to be as far from the mainstream as possible so they will remain disenfranchised and therefore can be expected to vote left, as it's the left that will continue to promise to give them special rights, whereas the right will simply say : you are Americans like the rest of us, you don't get speical rights and your right to act stops at my nose.

Sorry... I'm not following. How does "The Left" want to disenfranchise gay people? How does "The Left" destroy black families? You've said it, but I don't see any evidence.

I'm deadly serious here - what the hell are you talking about? I really don;t see how you drew those conclusions. I don't even want a link (LIINNNKKK) really, just a coherent statement of your argument...

How are either of those statements "gay agenda" or "gay proselytizers" homophobic....wait...you know what "phobic" means, right...I may be making another assumption that's getting me in trouble.

That you think there is a "gay agenda" is homophobic. It's quite simple. You've turned the legitimate concerns of a huge number of people, and their desire to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, into an "agenda".

What is the "gay agenda" you speak of?

[Cleon]

So leftists are homophobic, now? Wow. Well, I suppose after he declared atheism to be leftist (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3117790#post3117790), it was only a matter of time before something more ridiculous came down the pike.

[LostAngeles]

I still want to know what the gay agenda is. If it gets me into bed with Famke Janssen, I'm all for it, though.

[KoihimeNakamura]

When you can define anything in your own little world...

[LibraryLady]

Because this thread is not about Tokenconservative or homophobia, it appears to be getting derailed. If the derailment continues, I will split this off into a discussion of homophobia. Otherwise, let's keep on track. I think the sexualization of children is probably a natural outgrowth or "thread drift" of the older virgins discussion.

[Travis]

So, again back on topic. Do you "experienced" people feel you can pick out a virgin out of crowd?

People can often tell I'm a virgin just by looking at me. I wonder how you "non-virgins" do it?

[LostAngeles]

So, again back on topic. Do you "experienced" people feel you can pick out a virgin out of crowd?

People can often tell I'm a virgin just by looking at me. I wonder how you "non-virgins" do it?

I don't have virgin-dar, but maybe because I don't really think about it. If I want to bang you, I don't care about how many you've banged before, I just want to screw you. What you lack in experience, I can make up for.

[Travis]

I don't have virgin-dar, but maybe because I don't really think about it. If I want to bang you, I don't care about how many you've banged before, I just want to screw you. What you lack in experience, I can make up for.

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

[Ivor the Engineer]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

I'd of had to say: "Yes, but I'm open to offers."

[Mashuna]

I only retract things I say in error....

Leftists are by far the most bigoted, prejudiced people, by ideological standard, around these days, and are very practiced at projectionism, to wit: conservatives are "Nazis" (National ...SOCIALISTS!?) and "racist" (who is it who destroyed the black family in America with Great Society programs...I misremember...).

It's clear lefties hope to keep certain populations forever out of the mainstream. This is a form of racism when practiced against blacks, destroying their families, a once vibrant and wonderful sub-culture, and it's clear they want gays to be as far from the mainstream as possible so they will remain disenfranchised and therefore can be expected to vote left, as it's the left that will continue to promise to give them special rights, whereas the right will simply say : you are Americans like the rest of us, you don't get speical rights and your right to act stops at my nose.

How are either of those statements "gay agenda" or "gay proselytizers" homophobic....wait...you know what "phobic" means, right...I may be making another assumption that's getting me in trouble.

Tokie

I was the person who accused you of using the debating tactics of a six year old. I'm glad to see that with the above argument you've progressed to, "I know you are, but what am I?" That's probably at a seven year old level.

This is not on topic.

[fls]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

I don't think that's an example of virgindar. I think she was telling you, in a way that reflects the depth of her sophistication and wit, that she wouldn't have sex with you. Why she had the need to tell you this is anyone's guess.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

I'm not sure about these various 'radars'. I suspect they simply reflect stereotypes and the occasional lucky guess. People consistently would insist that I was a virgin when I was not - I think they were picking up on my shyness and introversion.

Linda

[Rasmus]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, ...

It might be somewhat relevant to factor your age into stories like these. If you were, say, 8 years old at the time the most surprising part might be that you knew what a virgin was at that age.

[bluess]

I found out after the fact (like two months of dating after!) that I was someone's first. His confidante had told him I must have known - but how? Not every pairing is great in bed in the first time, regardless of the experience of the two parties.

I think someone who has 'saved themselves' will have a different expectation regarding the results of the event and the relationship. I would certainly be wary of being the first lover in that situation, as I more than likely would have no intent of deep relationship.

If someone is a virgin due to other circumstances and doesn't have grand notions regarding the first time, I wouldn't have a problem.

[Ivor the Engineer]

I don't think that's an example of virgindar. I think she was telling you, in a way that reflects the depth of her sophistication and wit, that she wouldn't have sex with you. Why she had the need to tell you this is anyone's guess.

<snip>

Ok Linda, is that why you're ignoring me?:D

[Skibum]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

I don't think it's Virgin-dar, I think most women can sense a man with low self esteem and a lack of confidence. She probably sensed that about you and came to the conclusion that you have a hard time with women.
All the guys I know that have troubles getting laid exude those characteristics, and women don't find that attractive. It's not ugly that keeps them from getting laid, it's attitude.

[tkingdoll]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

Well she just sounds like a jerk. Sex is not ammunition, and she was rude to you. It would have been funny to call her on it though. "what made you think so?". I mean, what's she going to say that isn't going to get her fired? :D

[ponderingturtle]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)

Wow, you seem to run into a high percentage of total bitches.

[Ivor the Engineer]

I don't think it's Virgin-dar, I think most women can sense a man with low self esteem and a lack of confidence. She probably sensed that about you and came to the conclusion that you have a hard time with women.

They have a detection system for characteristics that are often a good proxy indicator for a state of virginity.

E.g, if you meet a man in his 20-30's who doesn't drink or smoke, wears unfashionable clothes, has average or below looks, is shy and introverted, the odds he hasn't got laid are pretty high.

All the guys I know that have troubles getting laid exude those characteristics, and women don't find that attractive. It's not ugly that keeps them from getting laid, it's attitude.

I'd say it's often quite a bit more than just attitude for many people. For example, in my case I'm boring, have no friends and I stutter. What I don't lack is self-esteem or confidence.

[volatile]

I'd say it's often quite a bit more than just attitude for many people. For example, in my case I'm boring, have no friends and I stutter. What I don't lack is self-esteem or confidence.

No offence meant here, Ivor, but do you think women find men who refer to themselves as "boring" attractive? You need to sort your own self-image out before you can even think about finding a partner...

I read your posts on here - you're far from boring. You seem eloquent, witty and interesting. No doubt you have several hobbies (geeky though they may be), and thus are good company in the right circles. Getting laid isn't about clothes or hobbies or cool or even looks; it's about presenting oneself as positively as possible.


ETA: I'm a pretty geeky looking vegan, am doing a PhD in art history, dress in 1930s vintage, have a moustache, play Scrabble and German board games obsessively, listen to Radio 4, don't smoke, and have been going out with a wonderful woman (who happens to be a model) for two years, and before that was pretty successful in the ladies department. The one thing I'm not is shy or introverted, so I guess that's where you need to start.

If you don't find yourself attractive, no-one else will, really.

[bluess]

Except those of us who like a challenge :D

[Travis]

I don't think that's an example of virgindar. I think she was telling you, in a way that reflects the depth of her sophistication and wit, that she wouldn't have sex with you. Why she had the need to tell you this is anyone's guess.

That's one heck of a way to do a preemptive rejection. Do women often do preemptive rejections or am I special?

[ponderingturtle]

That's one heck of a way to do a preemptive rejection. Do women often do preemptive rejections or am I special?

It seems like you have run into a dispropotionate number of total bitches.

[Travis]

It might be somewhat relevant to factor your age into stories like these. If you were, say, 8 years old at the time the most surprising part might be that you knew what a virgin was at that age.

Heh, I was 27 at the time FYI.:)

[Travis]

I don't think it's Virgin-dar, I think most women can sense a man with low self esteem and a lack of confidence. She probably sensed that about you and came to the conclusion that you have a hard time with women.
All the guys I know that have troubles getting laid exude those characteristics, and women don't find that attractive. It's not ugly that keeps them from getting laid, it's attitude.

I've never really thought of myself as having low self esteem but I've been wrong on other things.

Funny thing is that if it does come down to a lack of confidence it can be a sort of catch-22. Lack of early success for whatever reason leads to lack of confidence which leads to further lack of success which compounds lack of confidence and so on. Geeze no wonder prescriptions for SSRI's are through the roof.

[Darth Rotor]

You're implying that it has to be one or the other. Just because I'd rather not sleep with someone who is making "a huge leap of trust," taking "considerable emotional risk," and thinks it means they trust me "with their whole, exposed self," I don't think that means that I'm just a "mercenary" indulging in "sport" who only cares about "what's in it for me." Just because I don't have to be in love with someone to sleep with her doesn't mean that I don't care about her at all.

Otherwise, you're making my point for me. Adult virgins are likely (not certain, not all, I realize there are exceptions, but we're talking hypotheticals here anyway) to attach high importance and emotional value on sex. In the highly unlikely event that I am ever confronted with this situation, I would be worried about hurting her and reluctant to go down that road. That's all.
OK, I think we are in violent agreement, the first post wasn't as clear as the second.

DR

[Ivor the Engineer]

I've never really thought of myself as having low self esteem but I've been wrong on other things.

Funny thing is that if it does come down to a lack of confidence it can be a sort of catch-22. Lack of early success for whatever reason leads to lack of confidence which leads to further lack of success which compounds lack of confidence and so on. Geeze no wonder prescriptions for SSRI's are through the roof.

Confidence can be (and in many situations is more often than not) faked. After a while you begin to believe the lie.

[volatile]

By the way, Ivor - fancy a (non-alcoholic) drink sometime you're in the South or I'm in the middle?

[Travis]

Confidence can be (and in many situations is more often than not) faked. After a while you begin to believe the lie.

So my self esteem is fake and women can see through it? If so then my hypothetical of an inevitable catch-22 would be true.

[Ivor the Engineer]

By the way, Ivor - fancy a (non-alcoholic) drink sometime you're in the South or I'm in the middle?

Um, I think you're confusing my first paragraph with my second;)

I'm only boring, have no friends and stutter.:D I do drink alcohol (mostly red wine) and wear reasonably trendy clothes. For any* females (sorry gay guys, just not my thing) reading, I'm slim, tall and toned, though not overly muscular. My best feature is probably my legs.

When you're around the East Midlands (I live near Loughborough most of the week), I'd be happy to have a drink with you.


(*) Well, not actually any females. I could give you a specification, but that would just be rude. Please PM me a recent photo if you're interested.

[Travis]

Well she just sounds like a jerk. Sex is not ammunition, and she was rude to you. It would have been funny to call her on it though. "what made you think so?". I mean, what's she going to say that isn't going to get her fired? :D

If I only had a time machine.

Wow, you seem to run into a high percentage of total bitches.

It must be my natural bitch magnetism.:D

Personally my own hypotheses in regard to this particular gal is this. She had this kinda attitude that seemed to indicate that in her world a woman could only be attracted to a very select few ultra-macho-mega-alpha males. In fact she probably finds it amazing that 97% of men have sex at all because if she wouldn't consider doing it with them why would any woman?

That's just my take on her though.

[Ivor the Engineer]

So my self esteem is fake and women can see through it? If so then my hypothetical of an inevitable catch-22 would be true.

Can't you see through their fake front? Most people pretend or act out a role to some degree while they are in public. You don't think anyone would naturally choose to have their tongue pierced, do you? That was part of her costume. She would probably claim it was her idea, but she had it done to fit in.

If you want to change the role you play, force yourself to do something that you would not normally do. E.g., wear different clothes, change your hair style, take up a new hobby or activity.

You are defined by what you do.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Virgin-dar, that's good.:D

What I'm talking about is like this time I was at the doctors office, a new doctor for me, and I was getting my preliminary exam by the female nurse before the actual doctor saw me. She (the nurse) was an attractive blonde with a tongue stud but was very curt with me the whole time. For example; she almost seemed annoyed that I didn't smoke and when I said I don't drink she muttered, "what a surprise," very sarcastically.

Then, while still working from the chart, she stopped for a second, looked me over, and muttered, almost under her breath, "obviously no issues with STD's," and wrote that down.

I didn't quite catch what she said, so I said, "excuse me?"

She was taken aback for a second before replying, "oh.... you are a virgin aren't you?"

I confirmed I was she, she mused to herself, "I thought so," and we went from there.

There were a couple of other times too but I'll save those stories for another time.:)



I would have gotten revenge by thinking about her the next time I masturbated.

[Lonewulf]

You don't think anyone would naturally choose to have their tongue pierced, do you?
Please provide evidence that no one might want to alter their body in a way that you don't personally agree with.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Please provide evidence that no one might want to alter their body in a way that you don't personally agree with.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17091447&ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

OBJECTIVE: To obtain representative data on incidence and psychological background of tattooing and body piercing. METHOD: Prevalence of tattooing and body piercing is derived from a representative survey (N = 2043, age 14-93 years). Data are evaluated with respect to mental health (GHQ), Beck Depression Inventory (BDI) and sensation-seeking (AISS). RESULTS: The total prevalence of tattoo and piercing is 8.5 % and 6.8 %, respectively. In the age 14-44 15 % are tattooed and 14 % are pierced. Unemployment and lack of partnership correlate positively with body modifications. Tattooing correlates with the perception of reduced mental health and both, tattooing and body piercing correlate highly with increased "Sensation-Seeking" behaviour. DISCUSSION: Gender specific investigations show a differentiated picture background for body modifications.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17011366&ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

OBJECTIVE: Tattoos and body piercing have been linked to risk-taking behaviors, including disordered eating, but the findings have come from selected samples that were at greater risk for bias due to comorbidity. This study set out to explore concurrently the prevalence of tattoos and body piercing, and eating disorder symptoms in a representative adolescent sample of a community in Sardinia, a major island in Italy. METHODS: A community sample of 828 students (female, 535; male, 282; mean age=17.5+/-1.4 years) among those attending high school in the district of Cagliari, Italy, were invited to take the Eating Attitudes Test, the Bulimic Investigatory Test of Edinburgh, and the Body Attitudes Test, alongside a short questionnaire aimed at evaluating their resorting to body modification practices, including tattooing and body piercing. RESULTS: Females scored higher than males at all eating disorder inventories. More males than females admitted the use of tattoos (14.5% vs. 5.4%), whereas the reverse was found for body piercing (18.4% vs. 21.3%). Tattoos among females and body piercing in both genders were statistically associated with eating disorder measures related to bulimia symptoms. On the whole, the degree of association was modest. CONCLUSIONS: Tattoos and body piecing should be seen as desires to show a subject's identity rather than as a marker of psychopathology. Greater health education, however, is needed in the wake of the growing popularity of these body modification practices.

Young people get tattoos and body piercings to fit in with their social group and to feel "special".

I find it rather ironic that in an effort to be non-conformist, they all choose the same body mutilations as each other:)

[Puppycow]

If it's true, the guy is weird. Any virgins who want to be deflowered, I'd be happy to help. :D

[Travis]

I would have gotten revenge by thinking about her the next time I masturbated.

This gal probably thinks all guys do think about her when they masturbate.

[volatile]

Young people get tattoos and body piercings to fit in with their social group and to feel "special".

I find it rather ironic that in an effort to be non-conformist, they all choose the same body mutilations as each other:)


You're really, really wrong. Really wrong. Trust me on this one. You realise the two studies you cited contradict each other, right?

[Ivor the Engineer]

You're really, really wrong. Really wrong. Trust me on this one. You realise the two studies you cited contradict each other, right?

The studies don't contradict each other, they overlap.

How am I wrong? Why do people so often choose the same body parts as each other to pierce or paint?

[Skibum]

body piercing correlate highly with increased "Sensation-Seeking" behaviour

That's part of the reason i pierced my tongue. Only the target of the increased sensation wasn't me. :D

The only problem I've had with it is getting it stuck in her jewelry.

[Lonewulf]

Young people get tattoos and body piercings to fit in with their social group and to feel "special".

I find it rather ironic that in an effort to be non-conformist, they all choose the same body mutilations as each other:)

In the same way that we all wear similar clothes, I would assume.

Nothing special there.

[ponderingturtle]

That's part of the reason i pierced my tongue. Only the target of the increased sensation wasn't me. :D

The only problem I've had with it is getting it stuck in her jewelry.

If you want to argue body modification get your own thread.

[Ivor the Engineer]

In the same way that we all wear similar clothes, I would assume.

Nothing special there.

A more extreme version of hoodies.

If young people really wanted to be non-conformists, they'd stay virgins.:D

[bluess]

Nah, its the old people that need to stay virgins to be non-conformist. ;)

[LibraryLady]

That's part of the reason i pierced my tongue. Only the target of the increased sensation wasn't me. :D

The only problem I've had with it is getting it stuck in her jewelry.

Way too much information. :eek:

[Lonewulf]

A more extreme version of hoodies.

If young people really wanted to be non-conformists, they'd stay virgins.:D

I never personally viewed tattoos or piercings as "extreme", really. Except for testicle rings or nipple rings, or some of the more weird ones.

[Ivor the Engineer]

That's part of the reason i pierced my tongue. Only the target of the increased sensation wasn't me. :D

The only problem I've had with it is getting it stuck in her jewelry.

That's a funny place to keep her jewelry. Is she a smuggler?

[Ivor the Engineer]

Nah, its the old people that need to stay virgins to be non-conformist. ;)

I'm thinking of having an auction for my virginity. All funds donated to the JREF. Care to start the bidding?

[madurobob]

I'm thinking of having an auction for my virginity. All funds donated to the JREF. Care to start the bidding?

Depends. If I buy it, is it mine to do with what I will? Can I sell it again, creating a sort of virginity futures market?

[Ivor the Engineer]

Depends. If I buy it, is it mine to do with what I will? Can I sell it again, creating a sort of virginity futures market?

You do realize that would make you a pimp, don't you?

[bluess]

You do realize that would make you a pimp, don't you?

Well, if you're selling your virginity, aren't you pimping yourself?

On the upside of sleeping with a virgin, they have no idea how bad you are. :p

[Ivor the Engineer]

Well, if you're selling your virginity, aren't you pimping yourself?

But at least the money is going to a good cause rather than buying me drinks.

On the upside of sleeping with a virgin, they have no idea how bad you are. :p

I can't answer that without incriminating myself.

[madurobob]

You do realize that would make you a pimp, don't you?

What if I sold it to someone knowing they were simply going to sell it to someone else. That makes me a Pimp's Pimp? Or, what if I bought it never intending it to be - ahem - used? I wonder if there can be a pimp if there is no sex.

Still, the idea of a virginity futures market is intriguing. Isn't that similar to the arranged marriages that occur in many cultures where the marriages are arranged when the partners are toddlers?

[Ivor the Engineer]

What if I sold it to someone knowing they were simply going to sell it to someone else. That makes me a Pimp's Pimp?

That would make you part of the sex trade.

Or, what if I bought it never intending it to be - ahem - used? I wonder if there can be a pimp if there is no sex.

That would just make you weird.

Still, the idea of a virginity futures market is intriguing. Isn't that similar to the arranged marriages that occur in many cultures where the marriages are arranged when the partners are toddlers?

For females, maybe. I don't think many cultures hold their males to the same standards of "purity".

[madurobob]

That would just make you weird.


No argument there. Not from me, nor anyone who knows me. Still, I apologize for the injection of weird into this thread. I had a point to make about your offer to sell your virginity, but I forgot what it was midway through and things took a turn to the weird.

[Undesired Walrus]

My teenage years were utter torment, and even stranger since I went to catholic school.

I had to essentially plan out my future years of attack from the age of 14. Grafting the idea of who to first sleep with onto your fragile, peer-pressured-bruised body was no laughing matter. Seeing and hearing stories about your peers shagging people on the back on cars was no easy situation.

This by no means was helped when I developed my mental health problem in the second half of my teenage years, which led to an obliteration of my sex drive and a darkening cloud over my city life.

I long for the nights when I used to see my lady friend with her closed eyes as I caressed her neck with my lips. I'll never forget how she silently allowed me to place to place my hand on her buttocks for the first time. And how I felt she needed me.

Then she told me outside Starbucks that she needed another man. The dark cloud returned and now lurks out of the corner of my eye.:(

And no, I was not so bored I started searching 'sex' on JREF.:D

[Beerina]

For FSM's sake, somebody introduce that woman to some feminists. Or at least tell her that lots of men drop a woman after the first date and it's nothing to do with her lack of experience.

She's upset because he left her because she didn't put out? I know that's a bizarre "problem" women have, but the answer remains the same as always: good riddance to him.

Of course, these are the same women who read women's magazines that tell them there's something completely wrong with a man who reaches that age, much less 30s, without having had sex, "so beware".

Ladies, you reap what you sow.

[Father Dagon]

The OP is a good cause for prostitution. Consider buying different things or non-sexual services. Nothing magical about it at all. No-one expected that the first pair of shoes you bought without parental supervision would be perfect, only good enough. And no-one expects you to ace your way trough your first karate or skydiving lesson.

But when it's about sex, all logic, rationality, coherence and consistency is thrown overboard. Without batting an eye, the young radical urbanite feminists can first brag about their Sex and the City-lifestyle, then flay not-gay men that are as promiscious as them, then they finish it off with lamentations of men (never dykes) looking down their inviting cleavages.

If prostitution was more accepted and not illegal, then sex would not be as magic as it is today. And that would benefit everybody, even the asexuals. Now, they feel the societal pressure to do something that they not desire. But if sex is just another commodity that you can buy, sell or not at all, then asexuality would be no bigger deal than people who never wear denim jeans or plays computer games.

[Travis]

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that prostitution was the answer I'd have...........probably enough nickels to get a candy bar.

Wow, that ended up not being nearly as profound as I thought it would.

[shuize]

I read this thread the first time around (too lazy to go through it again).

If I was a virgin in my late 20s I think I'd probably consider going to Nevada. If it doesn't bother you, then I wouldn't worry about it. Of course, if someone asked me about it, I'd probably lie or at least say I don't really care to talk about my sex life.

[Father Dagon]

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that prostitution was the answer I'd have...........probably enough nickels to get a candy bar.

Wow, that ended up not being nearly as profound as I thought it would.Never said it would be a long-term solution. Only that it would break the curse. I guess that you don't dwell on the mistakes you made the first time you bought clothes without parental supervision. Buying clothes is no longer a big deal, right? Entzauberung, mah boi. Entzauberung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber).

P.S. One of the reasons that I also like porn as a phenomenom is that it demystifies sex. Might sound like a contradiction, as lots of porn is as realistic as the average chop-socky kung-foo flick from Hong Kong. Making a porn movie is no stranger than making any movie. Everyone knows what to do, when to do it and the size of their paychecks. Random, coercion and force has nothing to do on a serious porn set. So every time I hear some nazi or other moralist went bwwwaaaa over "us", the big bad libertarians that ruined sex, it's just another feather in our hats.

[ponderingturtle]

When I first started having sex (I was a late starter, 17)

See this is a perfect example of the kinds of statements that imply and and lead to perceptions of being outcast by older virgins

[Tony]

Used to be "scoring" a virgin was a biiiiig deal for guys.


That was before guys realized that virgin sex was bad sex. If I just was looking for casual sex, a girl being a virgin would be a turn-off. Its a hassle with which I would don't want to deal. But if I really liked her, it wouldn't matter if she was a virgin.