I'm joining a church

[Beth]

Since I post here regularly, I feel it behooves me to post regarding a change in my religious status. I’ve just joined a church for the first time in my adult life. It’s a Christian church, but one that is tolerant of my agnostic beliefs.

While I don’t usually like to post personal information here, I did want to post about why I have joined a church and what I expect to get from it.

I was raised in the Church of Christ, the ultra fundamentalist branch, not the Liberal United Church of Christ which I was warned against as a college student to keep me from mistaking it for our own.

I despised the church I was raised in. It promoted a repressive idiotic ideology regarding women’s role in society, claimed that evolution was a scam cooked up by Satan, and said that anyone who was not baptized into our particular sect would burn in the fires of hell for eternity. As I child, I believed everything my elders said, but much of it didn’t make sense to me. As a teen, I found the hypocrisy intolerable. They claimed the bible to be the inerrant word of god but ignored self-contradictory passages as well as the stuff that contradicted with observed reality.

Once, as a teen, one of the elders was explaining to me why women weren’t supposed to wear pants by showing me some verse in the bible. I read the entire passage and asked why this other verse in the same chapter about how women weren’t supposed to cut their hair didn’t have to be followed. This made him uncomfortable. (His wife and oldest daughter both wore their hair cut very short.) He took the bible from my hands (he had given it to me to read the verse he wanted me to obey) shut it, and told me that the elders made those decisions, I just had to trust them. I shut up and resented the church even more, which was not an easy thing to accomplish in those days.

I left that church the day I left my parents house and moved into my first college dorm room. I have never regretted that decision. That church exemplified everything that people despise about fundamentalists and I despised them for many years for the same reasons. For the next 30 years, I never went to church except to attend weddings or funerals or to please my parents when I was visiting them.

I haven’t exactly missed church. I declared myself an agnostic the first time I ever heard the term as a freshman in college. I married an atheist who had not been raised in any religion and had no desire to attend church either, so we simply didn’t.

I read the "Tau Te Ching" and "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and a few other such books. But mostly, I just got on with living my life. I didn’t disbelieve in God, so I didn’t consider myself an atheist, but my concept of what God was got larger and fuzzier. I certainly didn’t believe in the God of my Parent’s church.

A few years ago, I attended a wedding ceremony of a co-worker that really impressed me. The church was beautiful. The minister turned out to be the father of the Bride. The church turned out to be a creedless liberal Christian denomination. I met some members at the wedding reception who invited me to come to their church and sit with them. I did.

I was impressed at the sermon. Rev. Cox was an incredible minister. He was intelligent, well read, thoughtful and tolerant of everyone’s beliefs. He summed up his guiding motto in four words “Love everybody, judge nobody”. I went back and kept going back. Not every Sunday, but once or twice a month until he passed away about a year and half later.

I have recently joined the church but not before I sat down with the new minister and confirmed a few things. There is no dogma associated with this church. It holds the position that it is everyone’s right to interpret the Bible for themselves, personally. You need not talk about them if you don’t want to because it is considered to be a private matter between you and God. If you choose to interpret the bible as a work of ancient religious fiction, which no supernatural implications, that is your prerogative. Being an agnostic is okay with them. Being an atheist is okay with them. Hard for me to believe, my husband still doesn’t, but I heard it from the original minister and I heard from the current minister.

I wanted to join the church because I want to belong to the community of people that make up this church. It’s a community of people that I like and admire and think well of. Many of them work at the same University that I do. It’s a community I am proud to be a part of. When I told the minister that was the main reason I wanted to join, he told me he thought that the community was the main reason most people joined a church.

Oh, and he assured me it was okay if I only went once or twice a month. Another relief for me as I didn’t want to commit any more of my time. I have a very full life. The church I was raised in once formally censured my parents for going out of town too often and missing church services, despite the fact that they attended church services in the town where they were. This church has no requirements of either members time or income other than what those who belong choose to give.

So, now I’m a member. It gives me a nice feeling of peace and contentment. I like belonging. I enjoy the church services on Sunday mornings when I go. That’s about it. Oh, and I really like what meadmaker said a while ago about why he attends temple services. I can't remember quite how he phrased it, but this is my take on it:

If you want to be a better person, it helps to hang around with other people who have the same goal and the same definition of what it means to be a 'good person'. It helps to get together on a regular basis and listen to a lecture on how to become the person you want to be and to share, in a supportive environment, your successes and failures on your journey to being a better person.

Hey, that strategy worked for me with weight watchers. I became a thinner person as a result. I hope I can become a better person by belonging to this church.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Beth. We are all human with human failings, needs and wants.

Follow your heart.

Gord

[Soapy Sam]

There are decent and intelligent people everywhere.
An old friend of mine recently qualified as a minister in the Church of Scotland. I was at her celebratory service. I told her I think she's nuts, but I'm very happy for her. Both true.
Enjoy yourself and remember to tell your friends there about your friends here.

[Apathia]

A sizable chunk of me envy's you.
If there were a UU Church, or even an open Episcopalian closer to where I live, I'd join up. I was off and on attending an Episcopanian Church before I moved.

[Ichneumonwasp]

I think it's a great decision for you. I hope you continue to enjoy it.

[sophia8]

So you want to hang out with good, decent people. That's great. And I'm glad that you found some. But why join a church if you just want to hang out with them?
But I'm still happy that you found such a great bunch of friends.

[The Atheist]

If you want to be a better person, it helps to hang around with other people who have the same goal and the same definition of what it means to be a 'good person'. It helps to get together on a regular basis and listen to a lecture on how to become the person you want to be and to share, in a supportive environment, your successes and failures on your journey to being a better person.

Good luck, and I am being serious when I say I envy you in some ways. Religious people do have a sense of community beyond that available in the secular world and we recently had a thread which showed in quite stark terms that the very religiosity gives benefits in terms of self-happiness and therefore health and longevity. I have no beef with religious people with attitudes like yours.

My brain just doesn't work in ways to be able to do it myself.

[leanne]

yes, yes, beth , i can relate, i grew up in a church that was more tolerant but still as an adult was not allowed to discuss anything beyond the doctrine it professed, i started to question as a kid while at church camp and told that dino's never existed, but i too like you , miss the sense of community, there is nothing more uplifting for example than to watch a member who is totally tone deff feel totally safe singing a hymn because there are 300 plus who can sing louder and better, ...and right again, you cant find that in the secular community

[articulett]

I find that same uplifting community at TAM every year.

YOU can't find it in the secular community. I can.

[sgf8]

This sounds like a Unitarian Church? In that belief atheists and agnostics are very accepted. One of the women who attended the Alaskan JREF cruise is a Unitarian minister and also an Atheist. Randi told everyone that he almost joined a Unitarian church because the people were so nice.

Personally I miss the idea of being with all those nice people, the fellowship and warmness of belong to a church. My experience was almost like that growing up, the people seemed really nice and it felt good participating in church because that is what everyone (including my mom) wanted. It was nice being wanted and needed.

But then I'm remembering this from twenty years ago. Kinda like someone remembers how wonderful it was growing up where it snowed every winter, and now living where it doesn't snow. You have forgotten all the ugliness of snow, and being a child you didn't have to worry about getting to work and the car starting and so on and so on. In fact you hopped for snow days....

Personally I would love to find a group of like minded people that I could hang out with once a week or so. But that isn't likely to happen. I would be lying to myself and feel like a hypocrite to join a church. But it seems like a good decision for you so go for it. What does your husband think?

I had a cousin who got involved in the Unitarian church and finally dropped out because she was assigned just about everything. She kept taking over responsibilities as others couldn't be bothered. This is happening to a Christian friend of mine, she is enjoying the responsibility, but her husband is getting sick of it. Her best friend is also involved in the church and that husband is way over tired of not seeing his wife on Sundays and Wednesdays nights, and Tues and Thurs nights ect.... They just keep getting more involved.

Susan

[articulett]

I'm not cut out for church--never liked it... stopped going as soon as I could. Never went back. But I have friends that are Buddhist and Unitarian who seem to get something or other from their church that I could like if I wanted such a thing. I do feel the fellowship amongst the freethinking and skeptic community--especially at conventions, talks, and meetings--even online. But I'm just not a joiner. But I feel more and more compelled to align with those who speak out for science and separation of church and state. I am afraid of the more virulent religions and am appalled at their infiltration into our government and the way they've retarded the thinking of the masses.

We live in a time when we are privileged to know so much... and religions promote the idea that faith is better than facts for knowledge. Maybe not all of them... but many of them. And that just is not so--plus it can lead to disaster. If "faith" is necessary for morality and salvation-- then extreme faith is even more better by definition.

I suppose I should encourage the spread of less virulent strains of religion. But it always seems like there's a price-- "I won't question or judge your beliefs and practices so long as you don't judge mine".

[Kochanski]

Beth, I hope you get the community feeling that you want from the church.

I understand you desire to become a better person, but there are other places and other ways to do that. There are some wonderful secular groups that do all sorts of good things for the community. Hospices, the AHRC, the Humane Societies, The Nature Conservancy and oh so many others. Groups that actually go and attempt to make the world a better place. Groups that help people in a tangible way with no strings attached.

[qayak]

I find that same uplifting community at TAM every year.

YOU can't find it in the secular community. I can.

I haven't been to TAM but I have no problems finding great communities of like minded people either.

[ShowerComic]

I had the same feelings when I moved to S***m. I was new to the area, and wanted to fit in somewhere. So there was a UU church that had a great saturday brunch for the community. Immediately I could help out, and they had no problem with my attending services, as a friend.

But somehow, I just never really accepted the theology. I grew up secular jewish, never even belonging to a synogogue, so the idea of 'religious worship' was completely new. Also being new to the generic christian hymns, I recall being almost offended at some traditional songs - like 'Amazing Grace' -- I don't really consider myself a 'wretch' :) It was sung at one of the first weddings I attended there, and I thought what a low opinion of yourself.

Still I found community in the people, not the deities. But recently I've actually joined the nearby Ethical Culture Society, as I find it more intellecually challenging. - So the timing conflicts a lot.

And I've found community in activities I participate in, like square dance, and contra dance clubs. -- and of course this forum. - And friends I've met, since attending TAM

[T'ai Chi]

Joining a gym and getting stronger and joining a learning Mandarin group and learning the language are two of the most worthwhile things I've done and continue to do over the years.

[cj.23]

Hey Beth, hope you enjoy yourself and it proves stimulating and productive! have fun

cj x

[Apology]

I hope you find what you've been looking for there. They sound like very nice people. Good luck to you Beth.

[bruto]

I don't spend much time in churches any more, but always found a church can be more useful than the religion if it's a good one, so I hope you find it a good fit.

[Apology]

This is totally none of my business and I'm a little embarrassed to ask but...(I'm going to anyway)

Is your husband joining as well? If not, how does he feel about the idea of losing a certain amount of your time each week to the church?

You don't have to answer but if you do I will appreciate it :blush:

[blobru]

I know a couple in Church of Christ. Husband seems very satisfied. Kids well-behaved. Wife? Whoa... not a happy faither. Take a ticking time bomb, wrap it in a rattlesnake, put it in a dress, wig, and heels; will give you a vague idea.

And no wonder eh, with the repressive mindset you describe in your OP. Glad you've found a liberal church to hang with. The rev's motto reminds me what my mom says re religion: "why can't they just say, 'be a good person'? Why do they need all this other bull*****?!" Good question. Sounds like a few modern churches have been wondering the same.

Good luck. Hope it goes well. :)

[Beth]

Many thanks to the warm wishes so many have expressed. I'm pleasantly surprised by the reaction to my announcement. I posted it mainly because I felt it would be dishonest to continue to post here and not notify readers of the change in my personal religious status.

I'll try to answer the questions that have been posed.

So you want to hang out with good, decent people. That's great. And I'm glad that you found some. But why join a church if you just want to hang out with them?
But I'm still happy that you found such a great bunch of friends.

That's a good question and one my husband asked. The answer is simply that I want to belong, not just attend. The difference is a personal emotional one.

yes, yes, beth , i can relate, i grew up in a church that was more tolerant but still as an adult was not allowed to discuss anything beyond the doctrine it professed, i started to question as a kid while at church camp and told that dino's never existed, but i too like you , miss the sense of community, there is nothing more uplifting for example than to watch a member who is totally tone deff feel totally safe singing a hymn because there are 300 plus who can sing louder and better, ...and right again, you cant find that in the secular community

As a tone-deaf person whose singing frequently causes other people to cringe, this is actually one of the pleasures I get from attending.

This sounds like a Unitarian Church? It's actually a Christian Congregationist church, but it is very similiar to the Unitaian church in that regard. Some members, including our current minister, are former (or should I say also?) Unitarians. I checked out the local unitarian church, but did not find it appealing. It was too politically oriented for me. Besides, having been raised in a Christian church, I find a lot of comfort in the rituals and hymns I was raised with.

Personally I would love to find a group of like minded people that I could hang out with once a week or so. But that isn't likely to happen. I would be lying to myself and feel like a hypocrite to join a church. But it seems like a good decision for you so go for it. What does your husband think? He is less than thrilled but willing to tolerate my involvement if it is what I want.

This is totally none of my business and I'm a little embarrassed to ask but...(I'm going to anyway)

Is your husband joining as well? If not, how does he feel about the idea of losing a certain amount of your time each week to the church?

You don't have to answer but if you do I will appreciate it :blush:

No, my husband isn't joining. He isn't losing any of my time at this point as he works nights and sleeps days. When I don't go to church on Sunday mornings, I just read the newspaper, laze around, and post on the internet.

[sgf8]

I just read the newspaper, laze around, and post on the internet.

Add in there...work in garden, pet the cats, eat pizza in Monterey, have excellent conversations with my teens...and that is a perfect Sunday for me.

Susan

[ImaginalDisc]

Good luck, and I am being serious when I say I envy you in some ways. Religious people do have a sense of community beyond that available in the secular world and we recently had a thread which showed in quite stark terms that the very religiosity gives benefits in terms of self-happiness and therefore health and longevity. I have no beef with religious people with attitudes like yours.

My brain just doesn't work in ways to be able to do it myself.

False. Plainly false, in fact. Here on this forum we've reached out help other members time and again in ways that put most whited sepulcher churches to shame. There's nothing at all preventing atheists from playing sports on weekends, joining the local bridge club, or affiliating with others however they see fit.

[cj.23]

As a practicing Christian I agree with ImaginalDisc The Atheist. I have never noticed any lack of community among my secular/atheist friends - but I think this may just be because you are in the US where so much is defined in terms of religious belief, as opposed to the UK where it is not generally that noticeable. I hope you find that sense of community among fellow sceptics one day. I must say I don't think my church attendance provides much communal support here.

I know what you mean though....

cj x

[Fnord]

If you want to be a better person, it helps to hang around with other people who have the same goal and the same definition of what it means to be a 'good person'. It helps to get together on a regular basis and listen to a lecture on how to become the person you want to be and to share, in a supportive environment, your successes and failures on your journey to being a better person.


That makes sense. I hope that this is a truly compassionate community, and that you do become a better person for the experience.

A piece of advice, not really mine (it's actually a conflation of two philosophical maxims), but it may be applicable:

"Know yourself, know your enemies, and to your own self be true." If your goal is to become a better person, then become a better person. Don't let someone's illegitimate offspring mess with you just because they don't believe as you do. Their only reason for surrounding you with religious dogma is to keep you from becoming a better person than they think themselves to be.

Know, grow, and be free!

[Macoy]

Amongst the agnostic/atheistic church-going, how is prayer defined?

[Fnord]

Amongst the agnostic/atheistic church-going, how is prayer defined?

My son refers to it as "A two-minute delay before we eat." I know, you meant "at church," but he's an Atheist, and he doesn't go to church. But in my house we pray before meals. In his house, I pray alone ... and quietly.

[Macoy]

My son refers to it as "A two-minute delay before we eat." I know, you meant "at church," but he's an Atheist, and he doesn't go to church. But in my house we pray before meals. In his house, I pray alone ... and quietly.

We are talking on this thread of atheists/agnostics who attend some sort of church. I am wondering how prayer is dealt with under these circumstances.

[Kochanski]

False. Plainly false, in fact. Here on this forum we've reached out help other members time and again in ways that put most whited sepulcher churches to shame. There's nothing at all preventing atheists from playing sports on weekends, joining the local bridge club, or affiliating with others however they see fit.

I have plenty of community in several different places. In my community of gamers at different levels depending on if it is hanging with local players or attending a large tourney (everyone is always pleased to see players from other areas at those and there is much community involved). In my sci fi club and working for Icon sci fi convention. In the new New York Skeptics group. In the people here and the gatherings we have at times.

And I have found plenty of charity work to do in secular organizations thru the AHRC, the Nature Conservancy, the ASPCA, the Humane Society and a few others.

We just have to work a bit harder to be involved than religious individuals who have an automatic community and charities that they don't actually have to put any thought into. That is where I think The Atheist has it wrong, religious individuals have a default community without having to work at it or without having to be very involved in it, that does not speak to their level of commitment, community is not beyond the secular world.

[kellyb]

We are talking on this thread of atheists/agnostics who attend some sort of church. I am wondering how prayer is dealt with under these circumstances.

One of the UU definitions of prayer is just meditating or thinking things through.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Have fun with it, Beth.

~~ Paul

[Macoy]

One of the UU definitions of prayer is just meditating or thinking things through.

Are these times of quiet meditation, or does someone "lead prayer", vocally?

[Apology]

Sounds like you have things all worked out then, Beth. Thank you for answering my question. Good luck to you :)

[Fnord]

My son refers to it as "A two-minute delay before we eat." I know, you meant "at church," but he's an Atheist, and he doesn't go to church. But in my house we pray before meals. In his house, I pray alone ... and quietly.

We are talking on this thread of atheists/agnostics who attend some sort of church. I am wondering how prayer is dealt with under these circumstances.

I thought I had addressed that. My example was the closest I could give in the interest of providing an answer.

[Macoy]

I thought I had addressed that. My example was the closest I could give in the interest of providing an answer.

It was not criticism, merely reiteration. It's just that your example does not deal with that issue.

[Tanstaafl]

...snip... So, now I’m a member. It gives me a nice feeling of peace and contentment. I like belonging. I enjoy the church services on Sunday mornings when I go. That’s about it. Oh, and I really like what meadmaker said a while ago about why he attends temple services. I can't remember quite how he phrased it, but this is my take on it:

If you want to be a better person, it helps to hang around with other people who have the same goal and the same definition of what it means to be a 'good person'. It helps to get together on a regular basis and listen to a lecture on how to become the person you want to be and to share, in a supportive environment, your successes and failures on your journey to being a better person.

Hey, that strategy worked for me with weight watchers. I became a thinner person as a result. I hope I can become a better person by belonging to this church.


This sounds terrific. I wish you all the best there!

[Fnord]

(Posting deleted in the interest of breaking the nitpicky Chain O'Snarkiness.)

[Macoy]

(Posting deleted in the interest of breaking the nitpicky Chain O'Snarkiness.)

Fnord: I'm assuming this is aimed at me; I could be wrong. If it is aimed at me, perhaps I should clarify what I was asking.

Prayer, as I understand it, is addressed to god, performed by believers. When an agnostic/atheist joins a church, something they are perfectly entitled to do, I am wondering how they deal with any public praying that may occur.

As a believer yourself, your example, though appreciated, is simply irrelevant.

[Hardenbergh]

So, now I’m a member. It gives me a nice feeling of peace and contentment. I like belonging. I enjoy the church services on Sunday mornings when I go. That’s about it. Oh, and I really like what meadmaker said a while ago about why he attends temple services. I can't remember quite how he phrased it, but this is my take on it:

If you want to be a better person, it helps to hang around with other people who have the same goal and the same definition of what it means to be a 'good person'. It helps to get together on a regular basis and listen to a lecture on how to become the person you want to be and to share, in a supportive environment, your successes and failures on your journey to being a better person.

I think the thread you were referring to in reference to Meadmaker is the thread, David Sloan Wilson: "Why Richard Dawkins is Wrong About Religion." Meadmaker's posts begin on Page 2 but the posts you were referring to are later on in the thread (pages 3 & 4).

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86452

[deathmunkee]

Amongst the agnostic/atheistic church-going, how is prayer defined?


The same way as skeptics define it, at least for me. It does nothing.

I'm a rather hardcore atheist (into debating theists and the like), and I STILL love a good sermon and attending churches.

It may be because i'm a total bible geek too, but I don't think there is anything wrong with being an atheist/agnostic and getting some sort of joy out of going to a church.

Actually, this is basically what satanists (Lavey) do. In an interview on Point of Inquiry, the head priest of the COS stated that they were atheists and rejected the supernatural, but performed rituals for the fulfillment that they gave them.

[cloudshipsrule]

Groups that actually go and attempt to make the world a better place. Groups that help people in a tangible way with no strings attached.

Sounds like a lot of church-supported activities I know.

[Macoy]

The same way as skeptics define it, at least for me. It does nothing.

I'm a rather hardcore atheist (into debating theists and the like), and I STILL love a good sermon and attending churches.

It may be because i'm a total bible geek too, but I don't think there is anything wrong with being an atheist/agnostic and getting some sort of joy out of going to a church.

Actually, this is basically what satanists (Lavey) do. In an interview on Point of Inquiry, the head priest of the COS stated that they were atheists and rejected the supernatural, but performed rituals for the fulfillment that they gave them.

The cos are just liars. There is nothing wrong with finding strength within one's chosen community. fascists can be liars too.

I ask how an atheist/agnostic can enjoy being surrounded by public prayer?

[Lothian]

I hope I can become a better person by belonging to this church.I doubt it will make you a better person (how ever that is measured) but I hope it will make you happier.

[Beth]

I ask how an atheist/agnostic can enjoy being surrounded by public prayer?

I don't understand how anyone can enjoy eating liver and onions myself, but some do. What we enjoy is shaped by many things, including what we experienced in childhood. The familiarity alone can make it a pleasure for me.

[Mobyseven]

Best wishes, Beth. I must say, it's not exactly a surprise. :p

[articulett]

The cos are just liars. There is nothing wrong with finding strength within one's chosen community. fascists can be liars too.

I ask how an atheist/agnostic can enjoy being surrounded by public prayer?

Pageantry? childhood memories? show? anthropological studies? Psychology? I really found the documentary on the peoples' temple (with lots of soulful religious ceremony) fascinating. You could see what the people were after... and how they were slowly so manipulated... Maybe some people go to laugh at old demons.

Beth says she's an agnostic and loves the singing...

I don't like church, but I know atheists who find services interesting. Forum member, Hemet Mehta (the friendly atheist) even wrote a book on such. I think it's weird that you'd call such people liars. Preferences aren't something I can imagine people would lie about--especially when it comes to atheists who "like" church like ceremonies for some reason.

[articulett]

Best wishes, Beth. I must say, it's not exactly a surprise. :p

I agree. I think she might find greater camaraderie there than here. I don't think she's really quite as agnostic as she'd like us to believe. She definitely has "religious right" political leanings and no problem with creationist indoctrination of children.

[Apology]

I agree. I think she might find greater camaraderie there than here. I don't think she's really quite as agnostic as she'd like us to believe. She definitely has "religious right" political leanings and no problem with creationist indoctrination of children.

She does not have to be a political liberal to be an agnostic. All she has to do is not know whether or not God exists. If she goes to church and decides that God does exist, then she is no longer agnostic. Please do not create a new belief system for agnosticism that includes beliefs on politics and childcare. Those issues are not a part of agnosticism.

Atheists are not supposed to have dogma either. All atheism is supposed to require is a lack of belief in God. That's what everyone was telling me when they were trying to convince me that I was atheist instead of agnostic in the "Are Atheists Too Aggressive" thread a while back. If that's true, she could be a Conservative Republican and still be an atheist; all she has to do is lack a belief in God.

As for the whole creationist indoctrination of children thing, I don't agree with it myself, but it's not proof that she's not agnostic. I expect to meet other agnostics that hold positions I don't agree with. The only position that I expect from each and every agnostic that I meet is that they will not know whether or not God exists.

I've mentioned in the past that some atheists and agnostics revert to belief. If Beth checked the "No religion" box in the last census she was counted as an atheist. If she checks "Christian" on the same box at the next census, her reversion will be officially counted. 30 out of 90 ought to be sounding a bit more realistic to you now that you see how easily it happens.

[bruto]

I agree. I think she might find greater camaraderie there than here. I don't think she's really quite as agnostic as she'd like us to believe. She definitely has "religious right" political leanings and no problem with creationist indoctrination of children.In addition, if it's the right church, they might very well be able to disabuse her of the idea of creationist indoctrination of children in a convincing way. It's never been a very popular idea among the kind of Congregationalists I grew up with.

[articulett]

She does not have to be a political liberal to be an agnostic. All she has to do is not know whether or not God exists. If she goes to church and decides that God does exist, then she is no longer agnostic. Please do not create a new belief system for agnosticism that includes beliefs on politics and childcare. Those issues are not a part of agnosticism.

Atheists are not supposed to have dogma either. All atheism is supposed to require is a lack of belief in God. That's what everyone was telling me when they were trying to convince me that I was atheist instead of agnostic in the "Are Atheists Too Aggressive" thread a while back. If that's true, she could be a Conservative Republican and still be an atheist; all she has to do is lack a belief in God.

As for the whole creationist indoctrination of children thing, I don't agree with it myself, but it's not proof that she's not agnostic. I expect to meet other agnostics that hold positions I don't agree with. The only position that I expect from each and every agnostic that I meet is that they will not know whether or not God exists.

I've mentioned in the past that some atheists and agnostics revert to belief. If Beth checked the "No religion" box in the last census she was counted as an atheist. If she checks "Christian" on the same box at the next census, her reversion will be officially counted. 30 out of 90 ought to be sounding a bit more realistic to you now that you see how easily it happens.

I wasn't equating her agnosticism or lack thereof with her political view. She has repeatedly defended some bizarre Christian practices while rushing to vilify those who disagree. She is for school vouchers because she believes that it's fine for people to homeschool their kids with the intent of indoctrinating them with silliness such as young earth creationism and anti-science of the Jesus Camp variety. I have no idea what the political leanings of most agnostics are. But I have lots of ideas about the thinking of those on the religious right, and Beth often espouses those views to a degree I can't imagine a non-believer endorsing. I think that more often people come to this forum pretending to be skeptics or agnostics or "former atheists" when a little prodding shows that this is a deception... used to try and sway skeptics towards belief. I think that is much more common on this forum than these supposed agnostics and atheists who suddenly become believers. But I don't care. It's all self labels and feelings. For myself, I like facts. I'm all for people going to church if it floats their boat--believers or not... I just don't want anyone inflicting their faith on me with smarmy dishonesty, judgment, or inferences. To me, any one who lacks a belief in a god or gods is an atheist... even if not to themselves. And a Christian is anyone who thinks they are a Christian.

And I'm glad to have this forum so I can express that opinion. I'm sure she'll feel good where she can be pro-voucher and creationism without being prodded on it... where she can talk about those rude atheists that bother her so much. And I can talk about those that I find rude without having to walk on eggshells for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Of course I don't have proof that anyone is agnostic or Christian or atheist or Scientologist--these are all labels people claim for themselves or put on others based on their own definitions. I use my own labels just as I've heard you decide whether someone is or isn't a Christian per your definition. I decide the label I give to people based on my definition. In my definition, Beth is an apologist who bends over backwards not to see any harm of anything Christian but has a kneejerk negative reaction to anything even associated with a well known atheist. It's all just labels and opinions--I'm not stating "facts", so don't think I'm defining what labels should mean to you and who should be called what.

Beth seems very much like many a happy churchgoer I know and should fit in with her group quite well.

[Apology]

I wasn't equating her agnosticism or lack thereof with her political view. She has repeatedly defended some bizarre Christian practices while rushing to vilify those who disagree. She is for school vouchers because she believes that it's fine for people to homeschool their kids with the intent of indoctrinating them with silliness such as young earth creationism and anti-science of the Jesus Camp variety. I have no idea what the political leanings of most agnostics are. But I have lots of ideas about the thinking of those on the religious right, and Beth often espouses those views to a degree I can't imagine a non-believer endorsing. I think that more often people come to this forum pretending to be skeptics or agnostics or "former atheists" when a little prodding shows that this is a deception... used to try and sway skeptics towards belief. I think that is much more common on this forum than these supposed agnostics and atheists who suddenly become believers. But I don't care. It's all self labels and feelings. For myself, I like facts. I'm all for people going to church if it floats their boat--believers or not... I just don't want anyone inflicting their faith on me with smarmy dishonesty, judgment, or inferences. To me, any one who lacks a belief in a god or gods is an atheist... even if not to themselves. And a Christian is anyone who thinks they are a Christian.

And I'm glad to have this forum so I can express that opinion. I'm sure she'll feel good where she can be pro-voucher and creationism without being prodded on it... where she can talk about those rude atheists that bother her so much. And I can talk about those that I find rude without having to walk on eggshells for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Of course I don't have proof that anyone is agnostic or Christian or atheist or Scientologist--these are all labels people claim for themselves or put on others based on their own definitions. I use my own labels just as I've heard you decide whether someone is or isn't a Christian per your definition. I decide the label I give to people based on my definition. In my definition, Beth is an apologist who bends over backwards not to see any harm of anything Christian but has a kneejerk negative reaction to anything even associated with a well known atheist. It's all just labels and opinions--I'm not stating "facts", so don't think I'm defining what labels should mean to you and who should be called what.

Beth seems very much like many a happy churchgoer I know and should fit in with her group quite well.

I really don't like that voucher program. In my opinion it takes away from the common good of kids in public schools, which are available to everybody's kids equally. I also don't think that each and every voucher student gets a standard quality education. We can probably find kids that are better educated than they would be in a public school but I'm just guessing we'd find a lot of kids that got a worse education too.

However, that belief is a personal belief that is seperate from agnosticism. No other agnostic is under any obligation to believe that way, not even Beth. Nor can I sort of "kick her out" of agnosticism by declaring her a theist. She has to redeclare by herself.

I will tell you a little secret on how I determine whether or not someone is really a Christian, or an atheist, or whatever I think they are. I don't. Unless I can prove they are definitely, like I can with George Bush and Hilary Clinton, I won't try to argue what they "really" are. If there's a bunch of conflicting evidence with a variable level of worth like Hitler or Einstein, I will argue that we can't prove either case. I take their stated religion and watch how well what they do follows what they say they believe. Usually the tenets of any major religion, like Methodism or Catholicism, are available on the net directly from them. If the person doesn't follow it at all or seems to be winging it, it does reflect on their veracity, character, and dedication to their "faith" and lack thereof. It's valid to call them out on it.

With agnosticism in particular, it's hard to weed people out that are paying lip service because some people are agnostic for a short period of time while they move from one religion to another. They don't believe in God any more (at least the one from the first religion) and they haven't yet adopted their new religion. In between churches, they can genuinely say they just don't know, and that is a valid use of agnosticism. Simple confusion about religious denomination is grounds enough for agnosticism. In that case they don't usually stay agnostic long enough to really be counted in something like a census and don't really effect the numbers much. Still, even if Beth's opinions sound like ones that religious people have to me, I can't really say she's not agnostic because she could be in the middle of a crisis of faith that's lead her to temporary agnosticism---and she can go right back.

That's the bad thing about being an atheist or agnostic, however. Anyone can pay lip service by claiming "I'm an atheist" and then sign off the internet and say a dozen hail marys and pray fervently to their Almighty and we can't really prove it. The flip side of the coin is, since atheism has no tenets, there's nothing to really refute about it but an argument that's already pretty irrefutable. Even if you get caught out on an issue, it's probably not going to be on a tenet of atheism, because there aren't any, other than one: the lack of belief in God.

After the Branch Davidians it's no surprise that people believe some insane stuff and still call themselves Christians. In cases like that, and like Hitler, when you look at their teachings, it's so far off from what any Christians believe (even the kind of weird ones like the Mormons and Jehovahs) that you just can't count it as Christianity any more. Then it counts as a cult. There are a ton of Buddhist and Hindu cults as well, and I count Scientology as a cult even though it's not based on another religion. Heaven's Gate was a new-age cult. I don't think it's fair for us to blame the original organized religion for the existence and the behavior of these clearly crazy offshoot religions. It's just as likely that they're borrowing off the main religion's popularity to suck in more followers. I don't blame Christianity for Jonestown. I blame Jim Jones. He scammed everyone.

It's not the basic religious tenet of "There is a God" that makes religion so bad. It's all the other bad tenets that are now vested with Holy Godly Authority that make it a tool of oppression, like whether it's good works and salvation or salvation alone that gets you into heaven, and whether or not the Trinity is right, and whether or not Jesus was God and a man at the same time or just a prophet, or whether or not the bible is the literal word of God. The devil is in the details of these tenets, which is why I am so strongly opposed to atheism and agnosticism forming additional tenets of their own.

Whether you can have the first tenet (belief in God) without having all the rest is an argument for another day. I'm going to say that I don't think you can right now but I'm really tired and this post is reeeeaallly long already.