Non-Atheist Sceptics?

[cj.23]

Just a quick thought - I'm a Christian theist myself, and a process sceptic, but how many other agnostic and theistic or deistic etc sceptics do we actually have on the forums? Be interesting to see what range of religious belief is represented here?

cj x

[Cleon]

More than you'd think--the atheists just tend to be rather vocal. :)

I'm Jewish, myself. Of the other moderators, I know at least one is Christian. There are numerous posters of various beliefs, from Buddhism to Christianity and everything in between (I believe we even have a Wiccan or three).

[Upchurch]

I believe Hal Bidlack, former forum admin, is a self-described deist.

Off the top of my head, I would count Meadmaker as a critically-thinking Christian skeptic. I'm sure there are others that just aren't coming to mind at the moment.

eta: oh, and I'm a Unitarian Universalist, but also an atheist. So, I don't know how you want to count that.

[Ryokan]

...but how many other agnostic and theistic or deistic etc sceptics do we actually have on the forums? Be interesting to see what range of religious belief is represented here?

You don't need to be theistic to be religious. I'm a Buddhist, an atheist and a sceptic.

[cj.23]

Sorry I did not mean to imply you did - I was trying to be vaguely inclusive. Hiya!
cj x

[Beerina]

There are also plenty of things to consider that are purely atheistic but non-standard, i.e. there's something besides just the universe as-is:

- This universe is created, but more by some kind of advanced aliens/humans ala Contact. Maybe a breeding ground for new people, "in the old way, because that's the way it's been done for billions of years".

- The universe may be as-is, but there'll be a techno-rapture, as people with super-advanced future tech are capable of resurrecting people who have died, and decide to do so.


The first case is akin to deism, except that there's nothing Holy about the creator(s) whatsoever, though they may be advanced, and hopefully advanced enough to know and trust what they're doing. Hopefully it's not some kid whose lab experiment got away from him.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Off the top of my head, I would count Meadmaker as a critically-thinking Christian skeptic. I'm sure there are others that just aren't coming to mind at the moment.



I thin Meadmaker is Jewish and atheist/agnostic.

[Upchurch]

I thin Meadmaker is Jewish and atheist/agnostic.

If so, I stand corrected. I wonder who I was thinking of...

[Marquis de Carabas]

Off the top of me head...

MLynn
kittynh
Darth Rotor
Z
Hal, as mentioned.

...and those are just the ones I like.

[mijopaalmc]

Off the top of my head, I would count Meadmaker as a critically-thinking Christian skeptic. I'm sure there are others that just aren't coming to mind at the moment.

And, with all due respect, you would be wrong. He has mentioned multiple times that he is an atheist. It's just that those who tend to be most vocal in their opposition to his opinion like to label as a Christian because it supposedly gives them a reason to dismiss his ideas.

ETA: Looks like Ichneumonwasp beat me to it.

[Fnord]

I'm a theistic, anti-religion skeptic. This leads me to apply most of my skepticism towards eliminating needless dogma and pointless doctrine, such as the one where women not allowed to become ordained ministers, or the one where divorced people can not be married in church, or the one where the sacrament of communion can not be served to "outsiders."

I've been nominated for church elder. this means that, if elected, I will take part in the church's policy-making decisions for the next three years.

Just as someone can be a conservative republican without being an orthodox Neo-Con, so to can a person be a skeptic without being an Atheist.

[ImaginalDisc]

And, with all due respect, you would be wrong. He has mentioned multiple times that he is an atheist. It's just that those who tend to be most vocal in their opposition to his opinion like to label as a Christian because it supposedly gives them a reason to dismiss his ideas.

ETA: Looks like Ichneumonwasp beat me to it.

No, lots of people have called him a "Christian Apologist" many times, not because I think he's a Christian, but because he's an apologist for Christianity.

[Rob Lister]

I'm a Grystian Pramatis. I'm not sure that qualifies as an atheist...in fact, it doesn't.

[Soapy Sam]

Can you be religious without believing in gods? What's the difference between religion and superstition?

[mijopaalmc]

No, lots of people have called him a "Christian Apologist" many times, not because I think he's a Christian, but because he's an apologist for Christianity.

And people have said he was "blinded by the faith meme" which is hard to be if he doesn't have faith to begin with.

[Rob Lister]

depends on your definition of god.

[ImaginalDisc]

And people have said he was "blinded by the faith meme" which is hard to be if he doesn't have faith to begin with.

There is a difference between beliving in a religion, and beliving that such belief is good.

[ponderingturtle]

In thinking about this I am not sure what I think. It would seem that if phrased correctly there is nothing a skeptic can not believe in.

The important point is if you claim the belief is held for skeptical reasons or not.

Now all skeptics hold beliefs, many strongly for reasons that are not skeptical, but if the beliefs are not counter to skepticism it is not a problem. But you can phrase any belief in such a way that is not counter to skepticism(basically you admit a lack of evidence, and especially if you can claim supernatural explanations the debate ends there). So in theory you can be a young earth creationist and a skeptic, you just need to admit that creation science is based on lies.

So as long as you do not make falsifiable claims, it is not fundamentally incompatible with skepticism.

Personaly I can not concieve of a god that is meaningful and not evil.

[mijopaalmc]

There is a difference between beliving in a religion, and beliving that such belief is good.

But the implication is clear when someone make the "blinded by the faith meme" accusation that the accused believes in the faith that they are defending, which is patently untrue.

[joobz]

Truly, I do not know where I fall. I'm in transition. I think.

I would consider myself culturally christian, but I don't believe the mysticism and magic of it. But I do enjoy some of the trappings. I love christmas. I love easter. I especially love the Greek Orthodox Easter mass. It is a beautiful event to behold.


I'm agnostic, I guess. Maybe even weak athiest. But I don't think so. Since, in some ways, I would Like to believe in god. That something out there is purely benevolent and wants only good for us. I just have no reason to believe in it. At least, there hasn't been any evidence presented that didn't sound ultimately lacking. Unfortunately, the more "proof" people try to offer tends to make me more convinced that god isn't there or at least isn't at all involved.

In some regards, I'm a bit saddened by the realization. In some ways, It is the same kind of sadness a person may have in reflecting about growing up. The loss of a simpler life, and being the child of loving parents. The missing of childhood friends and family that you don't see as much. But that sadness is temporary and is more than offset by the joy gained from independence, by the ability to see your parents as equals and respect them as such and have their respect, by the opportunity to have a loving family and adult friends and a chance to raise a child with the same love I felt growing up.

The realization I had about what religion is and what god isn't feels like a chill from a blanket removed to rapidly. But what is left is a quite joy and pride. The same kind you feel when you fully accept you for yourself. It's the joy of independence, of being unburdened by logical conflicts, of being willing to exercise the reasoning capability that we have as a species developed, of being fully responsible for my actions and being accountable for the good and evil I do, and the chance to view everyone as equals and not as lessers simply becuase of their beliefs or that a god says that they deserve less than I do.

So, I do not know what that makes me. But I thank everyone here for providing discussions that have helped me decide for myself what is right.

[Ryokan]

Can you be religious without believing in gods?

I guess that depends on your definition of religious. Are Buddhists religious? Are Scientologists?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm agnostic, raised Catholic. Allthough I guess I could also define myself as an "apatheist".

[ImaginalDisc]

But the implication is clear when someone make the "blinded by the faith meme" accusation that the accused believes in the faith that they are defending, which is patently untrue.

I couldn't speak to that with regards to accusations leveled at Meadmaker without context. I did make the mistake of assuming he was Christian until he corrected me, however.

[Apology]

Sure, why not? You could still debunk everything else that's "paranormal", just not your religion :confused: I don't see atheism as a requirement at all. Skepticism doesn't have to be holistic. You can be "Skeptic and ____ " (fill in the blank as you choose).

[Upchurch]

I did make the mistake of assuming he was Christian until he corrected me, however.
Dammit. There was someone on this board whose approach I respect but whose conclusions I don't agree with. I just can't remember who it was.

This is going to bug me now.

[articulett]

Yes, I suspect there are lots of skeptics with varying degrees of faith. Who would care or even know unless they proffered their faith as fact and then became offended when asked for evidence?

There are people here, though, whose sole intent is to preach... they are not "skeptics"--they are here not to engage in dialogue or learn-- but because they want to sell their point of view via inane questions and verbiage and opinions stated as fact.

They want to be heard in a way they do not hear. Those are the ones that annoy me. There are those people who seem to have a real problem with facts that are the same for everybody-- and everything else (opinion, conjecture, innuendo, inference, myth, lies, beliefs, feelings, faith, parables, etc.)

I hate when I find out peoples' faith via manipulative verbiage and loaded questions. They are so transparent. I like when people keep their faith to themselves or express it as a belief. Hal is clear that his beliefs are his beliefs. He never pushes them on anyone and he doesn't want them prodded or dismantled. He shares the fact that he's a deist so others feel they aren't alone, but he doesn't state his beliefs as though others should believe them too. Sometimes the faithful have a sneaky way of casting inferences towards non-believers... I suspect it's to prop up their faith...

I think that so long as belief is treated on par with, say, "love of opera" or some other opinion or preference and not discussed as some special higher truth or as a reason to jump in to defend faith from any criticism-- then atheist and theist skeptics can get along fine--and probably not even know or care which is which.

But if a persons faith is important or they want or need it to be respected or they don't want it prodded in any way...then a person of faith might feel uncomfortable here. I hold my tongue all day in my regular life-- I don't want to have to hold my tongue here. When woo come to preach, I consider them fodder for my amusement.

Beliefs seem to boil down to labels people give themselves, right? They don't translate into anything measurable and they wax and wane and change as thinking evolves. I think that most people assume that others believe like them until told otherwise. Most people in my daily life presume I'm a Christian. And I presume everyone doesn't give religion much thought unless they express something religious. I guess I presume agnosticism or apathy or atheism unless I know otherwise.

[cj.23]

Hey Articulett, well I have never tried to hide my beliefs - see my signature. :) Odd how you note in your day to day life most people assume you are a Christian - everyone assumes I'm an atheist. I think it's just a UK/USA thing! And feel free to savage my beliefs as much as you like, I enjoy the discussion.

cj x

[Mashuna]

Dammit. There was someone on this board whose approach I respect but whose conclusions I don't agree with. I just can't remember who it was.

This is going to bug me now.

Myriad?

[Upchurch]

FWIW, I may have been thinking of Lurker. The self-doubt on my memory is spiking, so don't quote me on that.

[saizai]

eta: oh, and I'm a Unitarian Universalist, but also an atheist. So, I don't know how you want to count that.

:D Doesn't that just mean you're an atheist who likes coffee? :duck:

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I'm still agnostic. If god is proven to exist and it is further proven that he should be worshiped that's fine with me. I don't know who, if or what god is.

I believe that religious dogma in itself is demonstrably false, but since religious dogma is created by humans, it does not necessarily reflect on the reality of god. If there is a god.