Can a Christian have a demon?

[TruthSeeker]

At first I thought it was a joke.

But no, this article (http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/121/story_12168_1.html&storyID=12168&boardID=52269) seems to be very serious.

Oh my :eek:

[Andonyx]

Holy crap!

Did you check out the results of that poll?

I guess that's why they call it beliefnet.

[TruthSeeker]

Did you vote?

I wish they had a clear "there is no devil/demon" option.

I'm sure the author would label most of us "demon possessed"

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Did you vote?



Actually, I liked both the third and forth options. I mean the concept of evil anthropomorphized has been around for centuries so the metaphor thing works for me, as well as the fact that doing so creates dangerous and unjust hostilities towards people.

I eventually clicked on the fourth option.

[TruthSeeker]

That's what I chose as well.

I agree about the metaphor, but I don't like the idea of human nature being inherently evil which that option oh-so-subtly implies.

[sorgoth]

Heh....Silly devil. Possesing people. BRING THE FLAMES, WUSS!


...Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine that if the devil can possess people, he doesn't do it RIGHT.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
At first I thought it was a joke.

But no, this article (http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/121/story_12168_1.html&storyID=12168&boardID=52269) seems to be very serious.

Oh my :eek:

When will this madness stop!!:hb:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Andonyx


Actually, I liked both the third and forth options. I mean the concept of evil anthropomorphized has been around for centuries so the metaphor thing works for me, as well as the fact that doing so creates dangerous and unjust hostilities towards people.

I eventually clicked on the fourth option.

I clicked that one too!

[Yahzi]

From the article:

When we ministered deliverance, we frequently prayed for people we knew were born-again, Spirit-filled believers--and they manifested demons!

Nowhere in the article is this interesting phrase explained. Exactly what does it mean to manifest a demon? Apparently the manifestation of demons is so utterly ordinary and ocommonplace the author doesn't even feel the need to explain it.

What an extraordinary world lives inside these people's heads...

Also from the article:
Or demons may be inherited from a previous generation through a person's bloodline.

:mad: What a horrible world lives inside these people's heads!

[jj]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Nowhere in the article is this interesting phrase explained. Exactly what does it mean to manifest a demon?

My guess is that's when the annoyed subject says "will you PUHleeze stop (*&(*&*( whining over me, get up, take your hands apart, (*&(*& leave me (*&(* alone you ()*&(*(&(*&(*&"

[TruthSeeker]

quote:
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Or demons may be inherited from a previous generation through a person's bloodline.
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I had a friend who went for pastoral counselling. She was trying to figure out the reasons behind her bad relationship and career choices and why she was so unhappy. The pastor told her that she had probably inherited the demon that was on her grandmother and that she was being punished for her grandmother's sins.

Oh my.

This was a Christian church. Does anyone know whether in Buddhism, karma also passes down generations like this?

Thanks

[UnrepentantSinner]

If you want to know about demons, you need to consult and expert like Bob Larson (http://www.boblarson.org).

[TruthSeeker]

I've been trying to register so that I can ask the question about what the manifestation of demons looks like...but I am having trouble activating my account.

Perhaps this is the work of my own demon. Damn :mad: :roll:

[TruthSeeker]

Ok, it's done.

I read this article with great interest. I was wondering if any of the members here could help with the following question:

The author states that the Christians "manifested demons" Nowhere in the article is this phrase explained. Exactly what does it mean to manifest a demon?

Are there particular behaviours? thoughts? words? that suggest a person is manifesting a demon? In other words, what would one look out for in others and in oneself?

Thanks.




I'll keep you updated on the responses I receive (if any)

[Brown]

According to the Bible, Jesus believed that mental illness was caused by demons. (This is mentioned on the beliefnet page, but you might have to scroll down past a South Beach Diet ad showing a girl in her underwear to read about Jesus.)

Two thousand years ago, this belief might have qualified as "reasonable." If you've ever met someone who has a serious mental illness, you can understand immediately how primitive people might have concluded that the mentally ill were possessed by demons.

The belief does not qualify as reasonable today, however. Mental illness, even though not fully understood, is understood today as having non-demonic roots.

[c4ts]

We couldn't question our experience because we knew what we were seeing. So we began to question our theology.
Brilliant deduction! You'd think that somehow both experience and theology were questionable but thanks to uh... previous experience with demons? ... It seems as though they are just assigning the label "demonic" to maldies with other, more valid causes.

I often ask those who are skeptical of demon possession whether or not cancer is demonic. Most will agree that sickness is of the devil. So then, I continue, is cancer inside the body, or is there something on the outside that's the problem? If it isn't on the inside, doctors probably wouldn't cut people open trying to remove it. Evidently, as a Christian, you can have something in you that is possessing a certain organ of your body and is not of God.
By the power of close observation, he has found the cause and the cure for cancer! He didn't find God inside a cancer cell, therefore HE SAW THE DEVIL!! He's smarter than all the doctors in the world, thanks to whatever he uses as a substitute for logic.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Brown
According to the Bible, Jesus believed that mental illness was caused by demons. (This is mentioned on the beliefnet page, but you might have to scroll down past a South Beach Diet ad showing a girl in her underwear to read about Jesus.)

Two thousand years ago, this belief might have qualified as "reasonable." If you've ever met someone who has a serious mental illness, you can understand immediately how primitive people might have concluded that the mentally ill were possessed by demons.

The belief does not qualify as reasonable today, however. Mental illness, even though not fully understood, is understood today as having non-demonic roots.


Brown,
Couldn't agree with you more. The "demonic" explanation for mental illness was dominant for many centuries but we have progressed from there considerably

However, the author of this article and many of those who commented on it seem to be stuck in superstitious way of thinking which completely disregards what we now know.

Did you read the comments? The implication of some is that there are "demons" behind even a bad habit or negative character trait. Perhaps attributing all flaws to demons removes responsibility.

Amazingly, they do not seem bothered that the all-powerful Jesus cannot protect them from demon possession. How very odd that an all-loving saviour would allow this to happen to those who trust him.

I don't get it but I am fascinated by it.

[justsaygnosis]

I've posted more than once that they not only can have a demon but that demon is indispensible to their religion.
Atheism says no woo-woo of any kind, good or bad. If you've got proof of the woo-woo put up or shut up.
Agnosticism allows for the remote possibility of a supreme force but most likely nothing depicted in religion/mythology.
I am firmly convinced that if you put a true woo-woo of any religion up against the wall they'd kill and die before they'd give up their precious demon that they need to save themselves and everyone else from.

[Brown]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis
I've posted more than once that they not only can have a demon but that demon is indispensible to their religion.I'd agree with this in part. There are some sects of Christianity to whom demons are an essential part. Never mind that there is not one shread of evidence that demons exist; the Bible says that they do, and therefore they do. A similar "logic" pertains to belief in all of the orders of angels.

However, not all sects of Christianity buy into that nonsense.

[TruthSeeker]

I'd rather have an angel than a demon but only if she didn't insist on all that harp music!

Why does God need all this help? Why can't he just wipe out demons? I don't get it.

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Brown

However, not all sects of Christianity buy into that nonsense.

Thanks and you're correct. I should specify when I'm referring to fire and brimstone fanatics. I get so emotonal some tomes.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I'd rather have an angel than a demon but only if she didn't insist on all that harp music!


In Christian heaven you HAVE to play the harp. And your genitalia is spackled smooth with a divine trowel.

See how lucky those goofy muslims are? They get couches and virgins.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Does anyone know whether in Buddhism, karma also passes down generations like this?

Short answer: No.


Long answer: Noooooo.

According to Buddhist belief, Karma is individually based. When dealing with the religious end of Buddhism, Karm doesn't follow generations, since one is reincarnated after death and the karma will follow the person after rebirth.

In the purely philosophical end of Buddhism (which I adhere to) Karma exists only during life. It is liekly that if you wrong a person, that wrong will return to you in your life. Since, in the purly philosophical end of Buddhism, there is nothing after death except a return to the earth to feed other life forms, Karma ends when you do.

[athon]

Hey, demons happen to be some of my favourite people.

My novel happens to be on demons. Djinns, actually. Same diff.

Athon

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by triadboy
In Christian heaven you HAVE to play the harp.And in hell, it's the accordion.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
And in hell, it's the accordion.

You REALLY like troubles, don't you? :D

[Yahzi]

We couldn't question our experience because we knew what we were seeing. So we began to question our theology.
My irony meter exploded on this one.

[TruthSeeker]

My post asking for clarification of "manifestations of possession" has received no responses.

[Tormac]

I am pretty sure that a Christian can only have a demon "manifestation" if their God allows it to happen.

The real question is, why would a benevolent, onipotent God allow these visious little demons run rampent in the first place.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Tormac


The real question is, why would a benevolent, onipotent God allow these visious little demons run rampent in the first place.

I feel the same way about spiders.

What kind of just benevolent God would create spiders?!?!?

And then!!!

And then!!!

What could possibly have posessed Noah to bring them along on the ark?!?!?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Andonyx

I feel the same way about spiders.
What kind of just benevolent God would create spiders?!?!?
What could possibly have posessed Noah to bring them along on the ark?!?!?

Spiders I can understand - they eat flies and stuff. But cockroaches - they're useless!! They just stare at you, hissing your name....brrrr, gives me the willies!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by triadboy


Spiders I can understand - they eat flies and stuff. But cockroaches - they're useless!! They just stare at you, hissing your name....brrrr, gives me the willies!

Roaches exist to be stepped on, or eaten by spiders.

[LW]

Originally posted by Brown
According to the Bible, Jesus believed that mental illness was caused by demons.

Well, to be more precise, according to the Bible the illnesses were caused by demons.

[imekon]

I became a christian, then I was descovered to be possessed. I was a christian after the exorcism... but later broke away.

Bit of a problem then... was I ever a christian? I'd say that a christian can be possessed (if you believe such a thing) but it gets kinda tricky if you become a non-christian.

Or maybe I should accept I'm no longer a bible-thumping, pentecostal, charismatic, fundamentalist christian but rather a liberal one?

Oh I dunno, the foaming at the mouth could be quite entertaining...

:D

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by imekon
I became a christian, then I was descovered to be possessed. I was a christian after the exorcism... but later broke away.


:D

Can you describe the behaviours or beliefs that led you to be labelled "possessed"?

Was a theory offered of when or why or how you had come to be possessed?

Can you describe the exorcism?

I am heading out soon but will eagerly look forward to reading your responses when I get home.

[Quinn]

Originally posted by Yahzi

We couldn't question our experience because we knew what we were seeing. So we began to question our theology.

My irony meter exploded on this one.

That was the line that did it for me too. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a more succinct yet sweeping example of aborted logic.

Quinn

[Demon Yoyoloach]

I know 2 Christians on another forum. They both swear that demons do exist. They also swear that they can send someone a demon. So, I requested one. One Christian said that she could not do that to me, as it would be wrong and dangerous. The second Christian said that she might send me one - she'd think about it. I pleaded for a demon. I BEGGED for a demon. But in the end, she decided, too, that it would be too dangerous for me to have her send one. I believe she prayed for me, instead. ;) I SO wanted that demon.

[Beanbag]

quote:
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We couldn't question our experience because we knew what we were seeing. So we began to question our theology.
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You missed an important point, folks -- based on something they SAW, they actually started a re-evaluation of their beliefs.


Some of us could argue that they arrived at an erroneous conclusion, BUT AT LEAST THEY STARTED SHAKING THE TREE OF THEIR BASIC BELIEFS. Well, maybe a little.

Theory does not fit observed "facts." Revise theory to fit observed "facts."

Sounds like the scientific method to me. Maybe it will catch on.

Regards;
Beanbag

[imekon]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Can you describe the behaviours or beliefs that led you to be labelled "possessed"?

I threw a fit - I was sitting in a chair and my arms and legs thrashed around as I sat there. I've never had anything like it before or since.

Thankfully, there is a rational explanation for it, one that doesn't involve demons.

Maybe I should write up my entire experience as a seperate topic.


Was a theory offered of when or why or how you had come to be possessed?

No. I was asked if I'd played with "spirits" and I did say I'd fooled around with spirit writing and ouija boards. Apparently this is enough to "open the door" to possession.

Can you describe the exorcism?

Several guys lay one hand on my head, repeating, "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, evil spirit leave". This went on for some time, until I got tired and stopped "playing the part". They all thought the evil spirit had gone.

[athon]

Originally posted by Demon Yoyoloach
I know 2 Christians on another forum. They both swear that demons do exist. They also swear that they can send someone a demon. So, I requested one. One Christian said that she could not do that to me, as it would be wrong and dangerous. The second Christian said that she might send me one - she'd think about it. I pleaded for a demon. I BEGGED for a demon. But in the end, she decided, too, that it would be too dangerous for me to have her send one. I believe she prayed for me, instead. ;) I SO wanted that demon.

And what would you have done with it? Would you have looked after it? Cleaned up after it? Gone to the store to by it tins of souls when it got hungry?

Too many demons are left to wander to streets after people like you get one, play with it for a while and then get bored with it.

Remember, demons aren't just for Christmas, they're for life!

Athon

[Demon Yoyoloach]

Originally posted by athon


And what would you have done with it? Would you have looked after it? Cleaned up after it? Gone to the store to by it tins of souls when it got hungry?

Too many demons are left to wander to streets after people like you get one, play with it for a while and then get bored with it.

Remember, demons aren't just for Christmas, they're for life!

Athon

I would have been a most responsible demon owner!

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by imekon


I threw a fit - I was sitting in a chair and my arms and legs thrashed around as I sat there. I've never had anything like it before or since.

Thankfully, there is a rational explanation for it, one that doesn't involve demons.




I know nothing about you but a neurological consult might have been more appropriate than an excorcism.

Regardless, I'm glad it hasn't happened again.

[Some Friggin Guy]

I have a demon. He's a nasty little bugger who eats a lot of my food, chews up all my socks, causes no end of damage to my paperwork.

But he's jus so darn cute!

http://www.somefrigginsite.lunaticsworld.com/images/dogav.jpg

[calladus]

Originally posted by athon


And what would you have done with it? Would you have looked after it? Cleaned up after it? Gone to the store to by it tins of souls when it got hungry?

Too many demons are left to wander to streets after people like you get one, play with it for a while and then get bored with it.

Remember, demons aren't just for Christmas, they're for life!

Athon

Don't take a demon as a pet - they are more annoying than a tamagotchi.

[Franko]

I would say that if you find the concept of Good & Evil nonsensical, that it is highly likely you will also find the concept of demons equally nonsensical.

Demon = A highly evolved (superior) evil consciousness.

Of course if you also believe that homo sapiens are undoubtedly the most evolved consciousness in existence you have another reason to find the concept of Demons absurd.

Is Good & Evil a figment of the imagination … an illusion?

Are homo sapiens undoubtedly the most evolved consciousness in existence? I didn’t realize that had been so conclusively proven … ?

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Franko
I would say that if you find the concept of Good & Evil nonsensical, that it is highly likely you will also find the concept of demons equally nonsensical.

Demon = A highly evolved (superior) evil consciousness.

Of course if you also believe that homo sapiens are undoubtedly the most evolved consciousness in existence you have another reason to find the concept of Demons absurd.

Is Good & Evil a figment of the imagination … an illusion?

Are homo sapiens undoubtedly the most evolved consciousness in existence? I didn’t realize that had been so conclusively proven … ?

Your definition of demon is not the generally accepted one.

What is being discussed is an Evil Supernatural being.

So one can easily belive in evil, and also accept that humans may not be the most advanced itellects and still laugh hysterically at the concept of demons.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Franko
I would say that if you find the concept of Good & Evil nonsensical, that it is highly likely you will also find the concept of demons equally nonsensical.

Demon = A highly evolved (superior) evil consciousness.


You say there cannot be any coherent concept of evil without "demons," yet you define a demon as something evil. No concept of evil is established by your reasoning, or lack of it.

Perhaps you should try to discuss what evil is before you bring demons into it.

[extra sensory potato]

Originally posted by sorgoth
Heh....Silly devil. Possesing people. BRING THE FLAMES, WUSS!


...Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine that if the devil can possess people, he doesn't do it RIGHT.
LOL! I propose we right up a document detailing proper possession for the devil to brush up his techniques some, obviously books & movies such as The Exorcist haven't helped him much, they seem to aid the priests having to perform exorcisms more than they do ol' nick.

[imekon]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

I know nothing about you but a neurological consult might have been more appropriate than an excorcism.

Regardless, I'm glad it hasn't happened again.

The people I was with were convinced the bible held all the answers to everything they ever needed. It never occured to them to look outside - in fact they descouraged me from doing so.

I did eventually talk to a counsellor, who gave me an immediate and simple explanation of what really happened.

At the time of the "fit", we were discussing baptism. I'd just been to a CofE baptism and witnessed sprinkling of water on the forehead. I decided to be baptised a believer myself but forgot I was doing to a baptist church - they practice full immersion there.

When my friends told me this, I became scared - as a child I nearly drowned in a swimming pool, so I'm afraid of water. I remember I tried to tell them this... but threw this unexpected and scary fit instead.

They thought it was demon possession - after all, it fitted their picture. They didn't bother to check that it might be something else... I did check and descovered I'd simply relived my drowning accident. My arms and legs thrashed around because I was "drowning" again, arising out of the conflict of wanting to be baptised but being scared of full immersion. I don't recall thrashing around in my accident - my counsellor helped me see I'd supressed that memory.

[Zep]

Isn't it amazing what a little rational analysis of available facts reveals. A succinct and highly plausible, if not THE answer.

Regarding devils or demons or djinns or whatever, I always like to ask so-called believers who is more powerful, God or the devils. They say, "God" every time. Then I ask, "Then why doesn't he just eradicate devils, djinns, in fact all evils in the world? Can he not do that?" Then the excuses just FLOW...!

[arcticpenguin]

Well, if we define "demon" as "mind virus", then I would say that all Christians have demons.

[Franko]

Well, if we define "demon" as "mind virus", then I would say that most Atheists have demons.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by imekon


The people I was with were convinced the bible held all the answers to everything they ever needed. It never occured to them to look outside - in fact they descouraged me from doing so.

I did eventually talk to a counsellor, who gave me an immediate and simple explanation of what really happened.

At the time of the "fit", we were discussing baptism. I'd just been to a CofE baptism and witnessed sprinkling of water on the forehead. I decided to be baptised a believer myself but forgot I was doing to a baptist church - they practice full immersion there.

When my friends told me this, I became scared - as a child I nearly drowned in a swimming pool, so I'm afraid of water. I remember I tried to tell them this... but threw this unexpected and scary fit instead.

They thought it was demon possession - after all, it fitted their picture. They didn't bother to check that it might be something else... I did check and descovered I'd simply relived my drowning accident. My arms and legs thrashed around because I was "drowning" again, arising out of the conflict of wanting to be baptised but being scared of full immersion. I don't recall thrashing around in my accident - my counsellor helped me see I'd supressed that memory.


Thank you for sharing this personal story. I agree that it sounds very much like a panic attack brought on by the psychological trauma. I'm glad your counsellor was able to help.