What to do when led in prayer

[Macoy]

Not often going to church, I'm curious to know what other sceptics get up to when asked to "Join in prayer" at a ceremony.

[Freethinker]

Look at the floor, and usually count how many times the person leading says the word "just" in the prayer. It seems to be a very popular word among believers.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Depends on the nature of the ceremony and my relation to it. In general, I take the chance to scope out the spank.

[balrog666]

Look at the floor, and usually count how many times the person leading says the word "just" in the prayer. It seems to be a very popular word among believers.

Close. Look at the floor, and plan to drink one beer for each time someone says "JESUS!".

[Apology]

Stand quietly, fidgeting uncomfortably, and usually stare at any religious statues nearby to see if the eyes really do follow you.

[triadboy]

I usually keep my eyes open and look around. All the Xians will have their eyes closed and their sphincter muscles clenched. So if I look around and see someone looking back at me - they are usually atheists too - so we give each other the Atheist Gang Sign and smirk.

[Upchurch]

I generally just wait respectfully and quietly until they are done. It doesn't hurt me any and I get a moment to chill out.

[Fnord]

Think about what / whom you do believe in, and meditate deeply upon it / him / her / whatever.

And try not to laugh.

[lionking]

I usually keep my eyes open and look around. All the Xians will have their eyes closed and their sphincter muscles clenched. So if I look around and see someone looking back at me - they are usually atheists too - so we give each other the Atheist Gang Sign and smirk.
This is absolutely true. Back in my early catholic days, several centuries ago, I could never work out why worshippers had to have their heads down and eyes closed when surrounded by statues, stained glass windows, altars and other things yelling out "look at me".

[Charlie Monoxide]

In a very loud voice say "Oh Blessed Satan, we are unworthy of your magnificence. Thank you for your love and evil that you have bestowed on us retched humans (ad lib)...."
Just drag it out until the prayer finishes.

If the people around give you funny looks, just say "aren't you all Satanists?"


Charlie (minion on earth) Monoxide

[NoZed Avenger]

Depends on the nature of the ceremony and my relation to it. In general, I take the chance to scope out the spank.

So no different than the believers.








What? No one else grew up Baptist?

[tsg]

I remain completely silent and still while making it as obvious as possible I'm not praying just to see who it pisses off.

[Cello Man]

Don't become part of the Giggle Loop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iKjkPgVQcE##

[slingblade]

First, I try to avoid such events.

If I can't, I either excuse myself and go elsewhere while the sheep bleat, or else I stand there, quiet, but obviously not praying. I'd rather leave, and stay gone, frankly.

But it rarely comes up now that I avoid those events.

[LibraryLady]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

[Hokulele]

Since the "join a prayer" requests often directly precede something involving food, I generally hope that no one else notices my stomach rumbling.

[Macoy]

When Queen Elizabeth II of whatever and King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia had dinner, who said grace?

[TX50]

When I was at school we had to recite the "Lord's Prayer" every morning.
Some of us used to always say it backwards! :D

[TX50]

Queen Elizabeth II of whatever

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen,
Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[cnorman18]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

Patrick Stewart, right. Sean Connery too, no doubt.

It ain't fair, man. Those guys are like 70 and women still dig them. I didn't look that good when I was 17.

[shadron]

In a very loud voice say "Oh Blessed Satan, we are unworthy of your magnificence. Thank you for your love and evil that you have bestowed on us retched humans (ad lib)...."
Just drag it out until the prayer finishes.

If the people around give you funny looks, just say "aren't you all Satanists?"


Charlie (minion on earth) Monoxide

Hmmmm... Sounds like the ideal time to have a recording of "Night on Bald Mountain" available to play aloud.

[Gregory]

Sit quietly and wait for them to finish, probably? What sort of ceremonies are we talking about here?

[ImaginalDisc]

Leave.

[Hokulele]

I suppose one could follow my husband's example. Many years ago, we were invited to an event of this nature and my husband was experiencing the after-effects of a night of beer and Mexican food. If you really want to start one of Cello Man's Giggle Loops, release a Force 9 Gale right after the "let us pray" statement.

[Dancing David]

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen,
Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.


Liz mo be there ...

[Dancing David]

Sit quietly and wait for them to finish, probably? What sort of ceremonies are we talking about here?

'Let us wait for the day when like the Holy Pop Tart our beloved shall rise from the dead. All warm , toasty and yet tasty beyond human understanding. For verily I say unto you shall there be Milk with Tart, for that is an abomination.

ALL : Praise be Kellogs from whom all sugar, high fructose corn syrup and processed flour shall flow.'

[HarryKeogh]

I try to be closer to God by judging everyone praying.

[JoeEllison]

I throw up the devil-horns, and at the end of the prayer I say "Hail Satan!"

[PastorJennifer]

I am quite schizophrenic in this respect. I enter into the spirit of the occasion. Then afterwards I have to de-program myself back into being atheist ... bizarre I know... what can i say?

[NobbyNobbs]

I was at a funeral service a few weeks ago, held at a church. At one point, everybody knelt. I'm Jewish. Even in a Jewish service, we don't kneel. So I didn't.

I was the only one in the entire place. I got some funny looks.

So it's time for the eucharist (did I get that right? The wafer and wine thing) and before doing it, the priest (reverend, pastor, father..I never get it right) gives a little speech about how important it is to the family of the deceased and how everyone really, really really should participate in this little ceremony.

I stayed in my seat. And for some reason, the priest didn't shake my hand when we were leaving, as he did for everyone else.

[frankvan]

I never go to those things voluntarily, so I try to fake it for the sake of whoever dragged me there. So, call me a wimp.:boxedin:

[frankvan]

O.K

[Lisa Simpson]

I was at a funeral service a few weeks ago, held at a church. At one point, everybody knelt. I'm Jewish. Even in a Jewish service, we don't kneel. So I didn't.

I was the only one in the entire place. I got some funny looks.

So it's time for the eucharist (did I get that right? The wafer and wine thing) and before doing it, the priest (reverend, pastor, father..I never get it right) gives a little speech about how important it is to the family of the deceased and how everyone really, really really should participate in this little ceremony.

I stayed in my seat. And for some reason, the priest didn't shake my hand when we were leaving, as he did for everyone else.

Then the priest was a jerk. I went to a Catholic funeral last year and I didn't kneel and I didn't do the wine and wafer schtick. There were about 10 of us who didn't do the Vatican Rag (http://www.turoks.net/Cabana/VaticanRag.htm). The priest didn't mind. He knew that not all of Elena's friends were Catholic.

As far as what I do when suddenly faced with religion, well, I keep my eyes open and look around. Next time, I'm going with Library Lady's idea.

[PixyMisa]

When my brother and sister-in-law were getting baptised (he was 35 at the time) I attended the church service along with a cousin, his wife, and an uncle and aunt. When the communion wine and wafers came around, I partook - it meant nothing to me, and everyone else was doing it - but the rest of the family group, all secular jews, abstained.

Which left me wondering if I did the right thing... I was there to support my brother in something that was important to him. He knows I'm an atheist and doesn't mind at all, and he seems to get a lot out of his church community, so I'm happy for him. But in taking communion when I don't believe a word of it, am I showing acceptance or disdain?

Oh, and the communion wine was Ribena. I have this weird recollection that the wafer was matzo, but that would be too perfect...

[Beerina]

Personally, I stand there quietly, looking downward with my hands folded.

I am, however, often tempted to do the Borat thing, if you've ever seen that movie, you'd know what I'm talking about.

[malbui]

Keep my head up and eyes open and look around for nice boobs and butts to ogle.

[geni]

But in taking communion when I don't believe a word of it, am I showing acceptance or disdain?


Depends on the group.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I take that time to quietly assess and adjust my groinocological region.

[firecoins]

When I was at school we had to recite the "Lord's Prayer" every morning.
Some of us used to always say it backwards! :D
If you say the Lord's Prayer backwards, you can hear heavy metal music.

[Lothian]

I never get led in prayer. Mine is so quick it can't be seen with the naked eye.

[Tanstaafl]

I was at a funeral service a few weeks ago, held at a church. At one point, everybody knelt. I'm Jewish. Even in a Jewish service, we don't kneel. So I didn't.

I was the only one in the entire place. I got some funny looks.

So it's time for the eucharist (did I get that right? The wafer and wine thing) and before doing it, the priest (reverend, pastor, father..I never get it right) gives a little speech about how important it is to the family of the deceased and how everyone really, really really should participate in this little ceremony.

I stayed in my seat. And for some reason, the priest didn't shake my hand when we were leaving, as he did for everyone else.


I would say that was highly unethical for the priest, and I'm using his (presumed) ethics for that. This is supposed to be a deeply meaningful ritual, involving the actual comsumption of Jesus's flesh by his believers/followers. It would be highly inappropriate to try to force a non-believer to join in this.

But maybe he felt he was unworthy to shake your hand.

[Ocelot]

If I've chosen to be in a situation where prayer is expected I will respectfully bow my head in silence with hands clasped together. I'm not someone who'd miss a friends wedding just because they're religious. I have no problem repecting other people's customs. My experience of the communion is that only those who have been confirmed should go up. Obviously this means I don't. I'm suprised to hear of a priest actively encouraging non-believers to accept the eucharist. I was under the impression that paranoia about host desecration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_desecration) was still rampant amongst the clergy and laity. I've certainly heard a Catholic friend describe it in all seriousness.

On the other hand if a prayer is imposed upon me without my consent I would attempt to be conspicuous in my non-participation and if the ceremoney is to be repeated then afterwards I might suggest to the organisers that as not everyone is of the same belief they could be more inclusive by replacing a lead prayer with a moments silence for private prayer or reflection. I'll be more likely to do this if I find that there are others conspicuously not participating in the ritual.

Ammunition against cristians who wish to lead people in prayer includes their own scripture.

Matthew 6:5-6:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the streetcorner to be seen by men….when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father in secret….”

I'd like to have some secular prose to replace prayer if asked to say grace however thankfully being brought up in a secular household and with mostly non-religious friends I haven't really ever had the need. If pressed I could suggest some...

Gratitudes a funny thing,
to give before a meal.
Should we thank the farmers
Whose contribution's real,
Or perhaps the slaughtermen
Who let us stay so clean,
Or even global markets
and varied world cuisine.
What about our cooks?
Without them we'd have fasted.
But no we thank a sky monster
and his zombie bastard.

On second thought perhaps not :blush:

[tsg]

If I've chosen to be in a situation where prayer is expected I will respectfully bow my head in silence with hands clasped together.

My problem with this is the implication that not pretending to believe the same things others do is somehow disrespectful to them.

I am not criticizing your decision to do it, nor am I suggesting it is you who is implying it is disrespectful. It is just my opinion that anyone who would be offended by my refusal to pretend to pray are intolerant.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I usually keep my eyes open and look around. All the Xians will have their eyes closed and their sphincter muscles clenched. So if I look around and see someone looking back at me - they are usually atheists too - so we give each other the Atheist Gang Sign and smirk.

This.

[ksbluesfan]

I blow my nose because I know that I will be snoring before long if I don't.

[Ocelot]

My problem with this is the implication that not pretending to believe the same things others do is somehow disrespectful to them..

I dont think I'm pretending to have their beliefs, I'm simply participating in a ritual. Just as if I were visiting a mosque I'd take my shoes off and cover my head.

I am not criticizing your decision to do it, nor am I suggesting it is you who is implying it is disrespectful. It is just my opinion that anyone who would be offended by my refusal to pretend to pray are intolerant.

Indeed it would seem a minor matter in most scenarios I can concieve. I can imagine far more disruptive means of non-participation that would be truly disrespectful if in a circumstance one had chosen to be.

Theres a subtle differnce between not availing yourself of an opportunity to show respect (for the people if not for the belief) and being actively disresepctful.

If one had not chosen to go to church and engage in another's customs but instead had those customs imposed upon one then that's a different matter. Such imposed customs are not worthy of my respect and nor are peopel who would consider my non-participation under such circumstances to be disrepectful.

[tsg]

I dont think I'm pretending to have their beliefs, I'm simply participating in a ritual. Just as if I were visiting a mosque I'd take my shoes off and cover my head.

I likely would, too. But I still think someone who would be offended if I chose not to is being intolerant.

Indeed it would seem a minor matter in most scenarios I can concieve. I can imagine far more disruptive means of non-participation that would be truly disrespectful if in a circumstance one had chosen to be.

Yes. I am not suggesting running around singing sea shantys during a prayer shouldn't be considered disrespectful.

Theres a subtle differnce between not availing yourself of an opportunity to show respect (for the people if not for the belief) and being actively disresepctful.

I agree. Unfortunately there are those who see not availing yourself of an opportunity to show respect as being actively disrespectful.

If one had not chosen to go to church and engage in another's customs but instead had those customs imposed upon one then that's a different matter. Such imposed customs are not worthy of my respect and nor are peopel who would consider my non-participation under such circumstances to be disrepectful.

I agree.

[Apology]

I never go to those things voluntarily, so I try to fake it for the sake of whoever dragged me there. So, call me a wimp.:boxedin:

If behaving yourself in public for the sake of your loved ones is wrong, I don't want to be right. I can go to a wedding and hold my anti-theism in, provided that someone makes the statue of Joseph quit staring at me.

I have to admit I've never understood why Christendom wanted me to pretend, or why they would want a blasphemer in their church.

[ImaginalDisc]

If behaving yourself in public for the sake of your loved ones is wrong, I don't want to be right. I can go to a wedding and hold my anti-theism in, provided that someone makes the statue of Joseph quit staring at me.

I have to admit I've never understood why Christendom wanted me to pretend, or why they would want a blasphemer in their church.

It's not that they want you to pretend, it's that they want non-believers to be cowed and pressured into hiding their doubt, so that other non-belivers will feel small and alone. To that end, they want you act as though you believe.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It depends.

For example, a former teacher at my school and a friend of a friend of my mother's died three weeks ago in Houston, where she retired, but her friends decided to hold a memorial Mass at a church here and there was no question of me not going. Since my mother was going and everyone was expecting "us".

So I participated in the service without protest, even though it was pretty much just going through the motions. It felt odd and strange and sad to be at Mass again but I'm not angry at being forced to go.

[Apology]

It depends.

For example, a former teacher at my school and a friend of a friend of my mother's died three weeks ago in Houston, where she retired, but her friends decided to hold a memorial Mass at a church here and there was no question of me not going. Since my mother was going and everyone was expecting "us".

So I participated in the service without protest, even though it was pretty much just going through the motions. It felt odd and strange and sad to be at Mass again but I'm not angry at being forced to go.

In situations like this it's really a question of whether or not you're actually respecting religion or if you are respecting the person that died. I blame it on the latter.

[kinkymagic]

I'll just normally put in my headphones and quietly rock out.

[Apology]

I'm much ruder about it if I'm asked to pray at a public event. I can understand a little praying at a wedding or a funeral, but I don't see the need for me to pray at the start of a baseball game for instance. I also have the advantage of knowing that prayer is likely when I accept the invitation to the wedding or funeral, so I'm prepared instead of taken by surprise.

On the occasions that I've decided to be rude about it, I tend to look around openly and have been known to continue snacking on refreshments while waiting for the prayers to be over.

Edit: http://e.photos.cx/emot-munch-467.gif

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I was at a funeral service a few weeks ago, held at a church. At one point, everybody knelt. I'm Jewish. Even in a Jewish service, we don't kneel. So I didn't.

I was the only one in the entire place. I got some funny looks.

So it's time for the eucharist (did I get that right? The wafer and wine thing) and before doing it, the priest (reverend, pastor, father..I never get it right) gives a little speech about how important it is to the family of the deceased and how everyone really, really really should participate in this little ceremony.

I stayed in my seat. And for some reason, the priest didn't shake my hand when we were leaving, as he did for everyone else.

Oh, that's, eh, really painful. :( The church and the family really should have made better accomodations for you, like my Protestant friend did when my sister and I attended her cousin's baptism.

Her family is Episcopalian and we were raised Catholic but Episcopalians are so accepting and open, the reverend didn't make a single issue out of our religion, the reverend and the congregation made us feel just as welcome as everyone else and no one expected us to participate in the service. Allthough we did so anyway.

As a matter of fact, the reverend ended up even inviting us and the other non- church members present to her home for dinner.

Was it a Catholic Church? Then the clergyman was a "priest"; I believe it's the same with Orthodox Christians. "Father" is just a title.

A "minister" is usually a Protestant clergyman but not neccessarily a "pastor". The way I understand it, a "pastor" is a leader of a church; you can be a minister and not a pastor and a Catholic priest could be considered a pastor of his church.

[Complexity]

I've gone to my last wedding and my last funeral.

When I visited some of my family about eight months ago, we had dinner in a restaurant, sitting around a long table. I sat across from my niece (16). Everyone there is either a fundamentalist xian or catholic (also fundie).

Before the pizzas got to the table, my niece took my hand and, as everyone else linked up hands (or tried to), she said, "Let's say grace". I pulled my hand back and said, softly but firmly, that I don't do that (as everyone knows). She wasn't happy and joined hands with the person to my left and then said a prayer. I sat there and drank some soda until they were done.

The next time that I eat with family, I will let someone know that I will leave the table for a while rather than sit through a religious ritual.

If I won't put up with this from family, I certainly won't put up with it from anyone else. I'm tired of the presumption and won't go along with it any longer.

[triadboy]

Before the pizzas got to the table, my niece took my hand and, as everyone else linked up hands (or tried to), she said, "Let's say grace". I pulled my hand back and said, softly but firmly, that I don't do that (as everyone knows). She wasn't happy and joined hands with the person to my left and then said a prayer.

You should have immediately started grabbing the Big Meat pizza slices and putting them on your plate. I think that prayer would have been a short one.

[PixyMisa]

When I visited some of my family about eight months ago, we had dinner in a restaurant, sitting around a long table. I sat across from my niece (16). Everyone there is either a fundamentalist xian or catholic (also fundie).

Before the pizzas got to the table, my niece took my hand and, as everyone else linked up hands (or tried to), she said, "Let's say grace". I pulled my hand back and said, softly but firmly, that I don't do that (as everyone knows). She wasn't happy and joined hands with the person to my left and then said a prayer. I sat there and drank some soda until they were done.
At my last job, we had a 16-year-old girl working in the call centre who was the daughter of a pastor. Very nice girl, but incredibly naive. I remember particularly when she brought in a stack of leaflets explaining how you had to accept Christ into your life or burn in hell forever. And handed one each to her manager and to the owner of the company - both Jewish... :covereyes

[arthwollipot]

It ain't fair, man. Those guys are like 70 and women still dig them. I didn't look that good when I was 17.

Word.

Generally I won't be rude. I won't stand out. I'll do what everyone else is doing, so as not to draw attention to myself and away from whatever it is that they're doing. It would be exceptionally rude for me to draw attention to myself at someone else's funeral.

[timhau]

In a very loud voice say "Oh Blessed Satan, we are unworthy of your magnificence. Thank you for your love and evil that you have bestowed on us retched humans (ad lib)...."
Just drag it out until the prayer finishes.

If the people around give you funny looks, just say "aren't you all Satanists?"


I personally like this:

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil, because I'M THE MEANEST SONOFABITCH IN THE VALLEY! RAAGH!"

The problem is that I look much too mellow to make that truly impressive.

[circuit_bent]

Just do what these guys did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6XIuF8qnI

Searching up these guys other church related antics are also extremely amusing. This one's not the best.

[NeilC]

I don't bow my head I just look about slightly - the amount depending on how grave the situation is.

One thing that did annoy me last xmas was going to a xmas eve mass with my wife's parents. Her mum had my 3 yr old son on her lap and put his hands together and got him to prey. I know it's not going to make any differece: just one incident at an age where he can't even remember what day it is for more an 2 minutes but I did feel an "oh no!" feeling in my chest.

[SynapticDancer]

There is really no need to get all upset I think. I generally just keep doing whatever I was doing when the request was made. People have a right to join in prayer, and I respect that. I also have the right not to participate, and that should be (and usually has been) respected as well. Besides, I think making some big fuss to demonstrate your non-belief is just as superfluous as joining in a group prayer to demonstrate your belief in the first place.

[Kaiser]

But maybe he felt he was unworthy to shake your hand.

Awesome. Where's that Citizen Kane intense clapping video clip when I need it....

Gratitudes a funny thing,
to give before a meal.
Should we thank the farmers
Whose contribution's real,
Or perhaps the slaughtermen
Who let us stay so clean,
Or even global markets
and varied world cuisine.
What about our cooks?
Without them we'd have fasted.
But no we thank a sky monster
and his zombie bastard.

Also awesome.

My dad and stepmom are very religious catholics (and seem to be getting more and more so over time for some reason) so I find myself at mass whenever I'm visiting them (even on vacation in the BVI... wtf?). I figure when I'm in a church I've gone there at least somewhat voluntarily, so I should be respectful and try to blend in as much as possible. I never go up to take communion, but otherwise I go through the kneel-stand-sit look-like-you-are-praying motions. It doesn't bother me other than that I wish I were somewhere else.

Oh - an elaboration on the BVI trip - the priest was Indian and it was Easter - so the words "come again" were repeated many times (as in "the lord jesus will come again to..."). Of course my brain immediately latched onto a thought of Apu saying "Thank you, come again" over and over... made it very difficult not to start laughing.

[Cello Man]

Awesome. Where's that Citizen Kane intense clapping video clip when I need it....

Noted. This one's for you, Tanstaafl.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/11665472a312b8ea54.gif

[Sandy M]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.


Y'lost me with D'Onofrio, but I'll take Laurie and Stewart and raise you a Sean Bean.

[bobcarp]

Actually, it's great. It's an easy time to scope out the babes in the congregation without getting busted.:detongue:

[SynapticDancer]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

Why not all three? :D

[jazzmojo]

I pull out one of my many Jack T. Chick handbooks (chick tracts) and openly giggle at his target audience. If any in the prayer circle are offended by my giggling at a knuckle head, I toss tract and tact and go straight for the nooggie...

It's either that or stand passively, holding my breath, hoping that my mother will not trap to slap the Lawd into the bag of my head again...not again...never again

{Nota Bene: Never doubt the mathematicians love of aliteration}

[triadboy]

Her mum had my 3 yr old son on her lap and put his hands together and got him to prey. I know it's not going to make any differece: just one incident at an age where he can't even remember what day it is for more an 2 minutes but I did feel an "oh no!" feeling in my chest.


My mother-in-law tried to force Jebus down my daughter's throat too. Until this incident:

Daughter: Do angels fly?
Mom-In-Law: Yes, they fly.
Daughter: I can't wait till I die and I can fly.

[Apology]

There is really no need to get all upset I think. I generally just keep doing whatever I was doing when the request was made. People have a right to join in prayer, and I respect that. I also have the right not to participate, and that should be (and usually has been) respected as well. Besides, I think making some big fuss to demonstrate your non-belief is just as superfluous as joining in a group prayer to demonstrate your belief in the first place.

I don't see the need to make a fuss most of the time either, yet I've already admitted to having done so in previous posts in this thread. Why did I do it? I've always kind of put it off to youthful hijinks, but it's worth looking at a little more closely.

I'm generally not a jerk about things. The idea of me being a jerk about a 5-second prayer seems somewhat out of character for me, even when I was young. Looking back, I think I felt ambushed by the unexpected insertion of prayer into the event, and that the event was too informal or frivolous to warrant the prayer.

Any event that serves popcorn is an event that doesn't necessitate prayer. http://e.photos.cx/emot-munch-467.gif Even the religious should think about this last statement for a minute. I'm pretty sure it's true.

Honestly, most of the time there's no need to be a jerk about one's unbelief. However, when people are being obnoxious about their beliefs in a way I can't ignore, the temptation is there to respond in kind. I was wrong to be a jerk. I'm even mildly contrite about it. My bad.

[Apology]

I mean, really. *indignant snort* Why should I bow my head in prayer at a stock car race? Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:

However, two wrongs don't make a right. I was naughty, and Jesus has probably already made the arrangements for Santa to put coal in my stocking this Christmas :(

[SkepticalEd]

Not often going to church, I'm curious to know what other sceptics get up to when asked to "Join in prayer" at a ceremony.
As a true atheist, I'll simply get up and vacate the premises. Once, during a dinner at a metal detecting convention, I didn't know they were going to offer a pre-dinner prayer and it caught me by surprise. Instead of getting up and leaving the dining room until it was over, I stayed and have since regretted not being true to myself. If as I am leaving I'm asked why I'm leaving I'll be honest and tell them I'm an atheist, come what may.

During Jury Duty I tell the judge that I'm an atheist and will not stand for any swearing in that ends in "So help me god." During a Grand Jury where I appeared as a witness they gave me one of those oaths and I rejected it throwing them, for a moment, into a confused state. I was given a non-religious oath.

[SirPhilip]

Not often going to church, I'm curious to know what other sceptics get up to when asked to "Join in prayer" at a ceremony. The first rule is never to get caught up in one in the first place. But if, then: "Father, please forgive me for invoking you in stale, superficial terms and not volition."

[Apology]

There really isn't a protocol for what you're supposed to do when others expect you to pray. Here's what I do:

If I'm asked to "bow my head in prayer", I'm quiet (unless I happen to have snacks, then all bets are off). I stay in the position I was in when the order was issued. I don't make a big deal about looking around, and Christians aren't required to actually close their eyes while praying, so leaving them open isn't rude in any way. I reserve the right to roll my eyes, but only when I think no one is looking.

If I'm asked to kneel, I stay sitting in my seat. To kneel is to pretend to be a practitioner of their religion. I doubt their church wants people to think that I share opinions with them. I do not say "Amen" or recite any of the expected responses in prayer. I've been to primarily Catholic events, and the priests have told me that this is an acceptable way to behave, at least for Catholic ceremonies. I am quiet and respectful while they pray. Sometimes I will even focus my thoughts on the person who the event is being held for if it is a particularly serious event like a funeral.

I do go to funerals and weddings, even when they're steeped in religion. It would have broken my Grandmother's heart if I had skipped her funeral over some foolish quibble with Catholicism. None of the respect I showed at her funeral was really for Catholicism. All of it was for her, and her alone. If she hadn't have been stone cold dead, I know she'd have been proud of me that day. :)

[Macoy]

The first rule is never to get caught up in one in the first place. But if, then: "Father, please forgive me for invoking you in stale, superficial terms and not volition."

Sometimes church can reach out into your very own sanctuary. For example, an in-law of mine is a pastor at a Canadian church, and come to stay for a couple of days. A nice lady, but talkative, and her beliefs are no secret. When it came to breakfast in the kitchen, the family's about to plough in, when she asked to say grace. I was stumped, and told her that we didn't say grace.

She replied that that was fine, adding that god provided us with his daily bounty, and we are all grateful. I pointed out that what she had said was still grace; she just smiled. I felt that it was a bit arrogant.

[roger]

I can be a bit inconsistant, I suppose. I happily participated in Buddhist rituals when I was in Nepal, but unhappily attend Christian events here. But then I've always liked Buddhism; the rituals probably have "magical" significance to the Nepalese and Tibetans, but not so much for me. It's intriguing to participate and observe very old rituals. Also, I remember being in NM this summer and some Native Americans were having a bit of a ceremony in an abandoned cliff dwelling. I happily watched, and tried to be very quiet. It was pretty interesting - as each person felt like talking, they would just relate something about how they were feeling; it might be mundane or profound. I dug it, even though I didn't quite understand. We so rarely seem to try for authentic speech, it seems.

On the other hand, I've had more than enough of Christianity. I went to my girlfriend's sister's boy's christening this last weekend. I didn't look forward to it, but it wasn't bad. I just kind of spaced out while the deacon tried to tell me how to live my life with banal truisms, but he was pretty layed back - he openly admitted that he had no proof for anything he said, and that he chose it in an attempt to live a good life. I would dispute his choices for his axioms, but not with the idea - I have my own axioms, after all. I don't see the need to be a dick in the service, or to remove myself, even if I think the beliefs are silly. I certainly didn't pray - in fact I was walking around taking photos, but the deacon had previously said that it was okay, that it was important to record the event. That probably helped my comfort - he wasn't a tight ass. So he prayed, I took flash photos, and made my sister's family really happy that there was somebody there getting all the photos that they couldn't take themselves. Why be a jerk and not attend or walk out and miss that? I don't see the reason. Had anyone asked my beliefs (they didn't, probably not the 'done thing' in this social circle)) I would have been forthright.

But no, I'll probably never pray, look down, or otherwise participate in a Christian ceremony, but I won't make a big deal about it either. i'm sure I'll participate in other religious rituals, just for the education, or 'fun'. I have too much baggage to do that with Christianity; I don't consider that a virtue, though.

[Complexity]

I've gone to my last wedding and my last funeral.


I don't believe in fate, but it doesn't care. It just bit me in the ass.

I'm driving early tomorrow to Grand Forks, ND for a funeral tomorrow afternoon. One of my former students and advisees, a wonderful guy named Joel Lovelien, was murdered last Saturday night in Grand Forks.

He and his fiance went to a having a Halloween party. He somehow got involved in breaking up a fight just outside the bar. He went back in, talked to the management and his fiance, and went outside after a bit to answer a phone call. When he didn't come back quickly, his fiance went out looking for him. She found him stuffed under a truck. His head had been very badly beaten, they think with a baseball bat. He was dead on arrival at the hospital.

Four people in costume were wanted for questioning. They've identified a 'person of interest' but no arrest has been made.

Joel was a great guy and a good friend. He was 38. He lived for his daughter, who is now 14. She was to be confirmed the day after the murder - I don't know if it happened or not.

You can take most everything I said and push it aside for now. I'll go to his funeral out of respect for him and support for his friends and family. This is about them, not me. I won't participate in anything religious, but I'll be quiet and inconspicuous about it.

What a sad day.

[Apology]

I don't believe in fate, but it doesn't care. It just bit me in the ass.

I'm driving early tomorrow to Grand Forks, ND for a funeral tomorrow afternoon. One of my former students and advisees, a wonderful guy named Joel Lovelien, was murdered last Saturday night in Grand Forks.

He and his fiance went to a having a Halloween party. He somehow got involved in breaking up a fight just outside the bar. He went back in, talked to the management and his fiance, and went outside after a bit to answer a phone call. When he didn't come back quickly, his fiance went out looking for him. She found him stuffed under a truck. His head had been very badly beaten, they think with a baseball bat. He was dead on arrival at the hospital.

Four people in costume were wanted for questioning. They've identified a 'person of interest' but no arrest has been made.

Joel was a great guy and a good friend. He was 38. He lived for his daughter, who is now 14. She was to be confirmed the day after the murder - I don't know if it happened or not.

You can take most everything I said and push it aside for now. I'll go to his funeral out of respect for him and support for his friends and family. This is about them, not me. I won't participate in anything religious, but I'll be quiet and inconspicuous about it.

What a sad day.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Try to forget about the religion and just remember Joel. Good luck to you.

[RichardB]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

I'm one of those wierdos who goes to chuch every Sunday and who prays regularly. When the prayer leader is raving on about "and Lord we just wanna" stuff I often left my mind wander to erotic thoughts involving David Duchovny. The nuns who taught me in elementary school would probably warn me about the flames of hell anent my fantasies, but I think that hell stuff is a crock o'crap.

[jazzmojo]

I'm one of those wierdos who goes to chuch every Sunday and who prays regularly. When the prayer leader is raving on about "and Lord we just wanna" stuff I often left my mind wander to erotic thoughts involving David Duchovny. The nuns who taught me in elementary school would probably warn me about the flames of hell anent my fantasies, but I think that hell stuff is a crock o'crap.
That's not weird Rich. I still go to church almost every Sunday and I've been an atheist for over 15 years. There is something comforting to me in those pews that is worth more to me then anything else that I could be doing with that hour on Sunday morning.

Still, I firmly attest to the god(s) of Ludwig Feuerbach, who somehow managed to steal my ideas on the anthropomorphic supernatural hundreds of years before I was born.

[TX50]

If you say the Lord's Prayer backwards, you can hear heavy metal music.

Whenever we were caught doing it by the teachers, we often saw stars too! :boggled:

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't believe in fate, but it doesn't care. It just bit me in the ass.

I'm driving early tomorrow to Grand Forks, ND for a funeral tomorrow afternoon. One of my former students and advisees, a wonderful guy named Joel Lovelien, was murdered last Saturday night in Grand Forks.

He and his fiance went to a having a Halloween party. He somehow got involved in breaking up a fight just outside the bar. He went back in, talked to the management and his fiance, and went outside after a bit to answer a phone call. When he didn't come back quickly, his fiance went out looking for him. She found him stuffed under a truck. His head had been very badly beaten, they think with a baseball bat. He was dead on arrival at the hospital.

Four people in costume were wanted for questioning. They've identified a 'person of interest' but no arrest has been made.

Joel was a great guy and a good friend. He was 38. He lived for his daughter, who is now 14. She was to be confirmed the day after the murder - I don't know if it happened or not.

You can take most everything I said and push it aside for now. I'll go to his funeral out of respect for him and support for his friends and family. This is about them, not me. I won't participate in anything religious, but I'll be quiet and inconspicuous about it.

What a sad day.

Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear that.

That's shocking- and all over a stupid bar fight.

[Macoy]

I don't believe in fate, but it doesn't care. It just bit me in the ass.

I'm driving early tomorrow to Grand Forks, ND for a funeral tomorrow afternoon. One of my former students and advisees, a wonderful guy named Joel Lovelien, was murdered last Saturday night in Grand Forks.

He and his fiance went to a having a Halloween party. He somehow got involved in breaking up a fight just outside the bar. He went back in, talked to the management and his fiance, and went outside after a bit to answer a phone call. When he didn't come back quickly, his fiance went out looking for him. She found him stuffed under a truck. His head had been very badly beaten, they think with a baseball bat. He was dead on arrival at the hospital.

Four people in costume were wanted for questioning. They've identified a 'person of interest' but no arrest has been made.

Joel was a great guy and a good friend. He was 38. He lived for his daughter, who is now 14. She was to be confirmed the day after the murder - I don't know if it happened or not.

You can take most everything I said and push it aside for now. I'll go to his funeral out of respect for him and support for his friends and family. This is about them, not me. I won't participate in anything religious, but I'll be quiet and inconspicuous about it.

What a sad day.

Complexity, I also go to funerals out of respect. My original post was based on simple curiosity. Many of things listed in this thread I have done at ceremonies, but weddings are more fun, later. At funeral-prayer-time - if it happens - I can often learn more about my lost friend by reading personal biographies distributed by others.

[Complexity]

I'm so sorry to hear that. Try to forget about the religion and just remember Joel. Good luck to you.


I just got home after driving back from Grand Forks. The funeral was well done and very well attended. I got to spend time with a few of my former students.

The police apparently have some suspects but haven't brought them yet.

The mixture of anger and sorrow at the funeral hung in the air, but the minister and a representative of the family got people laughing a lot and the minister talked about the anger that he and others felt.

I didn't participate in the prayers but did have fun with two hymns. Think the scene where Mr. Bean belts one out in church, except I was softer and in better tune. Normally, only my rubber ducky hears me sing. I tried to be kind, but they were asking for it today.

I thought a lot about Joel as I drove to Grand Forks this morning. Cried my eyes out several times before the funeral started.

[Complexity]

Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear that.

That's shocking- and all over a stupid bar fight.


I don't think anyone other than the killer(s) have a clue why it was done. Apparently, they are thinking that the people involved in the bar fight weren't involved in his killing. Of course, I can't think of any reason for the attack - Joel was one of the few people I've known who was liked by all.

There was a lot of quiet speculation and rumors floating around before and after the funeral, but I'm not going to say anything about them - some of the people were fairly well informed and I'm not sure what is public knowledge.

I think my favorite story from the service was about when he was in high school and wanted to make his girlfriend jealous. He used a (cow-) milking machine to give himself some hickeys from hell on his neck. They apparently lasted for weeks. I'm sure he was very proud of himself. I can see that smile now.

What a waste.

[SirPhilip]

Sometimes church can reach out into your very own sanctuary. For example, an in-law of mine is a pastor at a Canadian church, and come to stay for a couple of days. A nice lady, but talkative, and her beliefs are no secret. When it came to breakfast in the kitchen, the family's about to plough in, when she asked to say grace. I was stumped, and told her that we didn't say grace. Grace can be of course said silently, without any indication a ritual is performed. Monks did it frequently.

She replied that that was fine, adding that god provided us with his daily bounty, and we are all grateful. :talk005: This is why it's important to keep your grocery receipts.

I pointed out that what she had said was still grace; she just smiled. I felt that it was a bit arrogant. Since God clearly doesn't intrude in human affairs - in fact his absence and insistence on moral volition seems to be the most trying problem around, so when Christians force themselves on other sensibilities, it indicates desperation, the act functioning to appear the opposite.

[EatatJoes]

I remain completely silent and still while making it as obvious as possible I'm not praying just to see who it pisses off.

I wasn't aware that my husband was also a part of this forum. I think he mentally dares someone to look up from their prayer, realize he's not praying and give him a dirty look.

I however bow my head, leave my eyes open. I grew up xian, prayer isn't an uncomfortable thing for me. When I'm at my mom's house and grandma's over, we pray before dinner. "Come lord jesus, be our guest and let thy gifts to us we blessed?? amen". I'm still not sure if I'm saying it right, but it makes grandma happy. I'm her favorite so I'm not going to protest.

[EatatJoes]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

That man is freaking sexy!

[arthwollipot]

During Jury Duty I tell the judge that I'm an atheist and will not stand for any swearing in that ends in "So help me god." During a Grand Jury where I appeared as a witness they gave me one of those oaths and I rejected it throwing them, for a moment, into a confused state. I was given a non-religious oath.

In Australia we are given the choice to take either the Oath or the Affirmation. They are identical, except that the Oath mentions God and the Affirmation does not.

I love living in Australia.

[articulett]

I don't think anyone other than the killer(s) have a clue why it was done. Apparently, they are thinking that the people involved in the bar fight weren't involved in his killing. Of course, I can't think of any reason for the attack - Joel was one of the few people I've known who was liked by all.

There was a lot of quiet speculation and rumors floating around before and after the funeral, but I'm not going to say anything about them - some of the people were fairly well informed and I'm not sure what is public knowledge.

I think my favorite story from the service was about when he was in high school and wanted to make his girlfriend jealous. He used a (cow-) milking machine to give himself some hickeys from hell on his neck. They apparently lasted for weeks. I'm sure he was very proud of himself. I can see that smile now.

What a waste.

What a tragedy. It's very unreal. And so unfixable.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=55589

[Apology]

I always just go right ahead and swear on the Bible. Since I'm not a Christian, I figure the oath is worthless; I might as well have my fingers crossed behind my back for all the good it does the Court. I could put my hand on the phone book and answer "Yes" to the same dumb oath and the effect would be the same: Nothing. It's a dumb leftover ceremonial thing and I just get it over with as quickly as possible. I can't help smirking to myself a little when I answer though. I think it's the drama---"so help you GAWWD?!?".

[cloudskimmer]

You can take most everything I said and push it aside for now. I'll go to his funeral out of respect for him and support for his friends and family. This is about them, not me. I won't participate in anything religious, but I'll be quiet and inconspicuous about it.

What a sad day.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry to hear about the death of your friend. I would hope that any funeral any of us attend reflects the beliefs and wishes of that person. That being said, if we elect to participate, it is as other posters have indicated, a willingness to participate in what may be a religious ritual, which frequently includes prayer. Loud declarations of your contrary beliefs serve no purpose, and would upset those present. Even walking out seems inappropriate to me. Surely you know that a funeral, wedding, bar mitzvah, held in a church or synagogue, is a religious event, so prayer should come a no surprise. Similarly, recognition that not all participants share that religious faith should be expected. So, no, don't say the words, which for athiests are beliefs we don't share. And I don't think bowing or kneeling are necessary--not to mention that many of us find kneeling painful and damaging to our knees. But offer the courtesy you expect of others. Don't loudly proclaim your atheism, since you would resent anyone loudly drawing attention to you own lack of belief.

The above applies to personal gatherings. But massive public events? Does anyone pray at baseball games and auto races? That kind of coersion is seriously intrusive and annoying. I might not be so quiet and courteous in such a venue, and would probably complain, at least later, in writing, to the management of such an event, particularly if it involved publicly supported facilities, such as a school, and especially a political event. When I found that my local city council opened each meeting with a prayer, I wrote to each member firmly stating my support for church-state separation. They were being threatened with a lawsuit by the ACLU and, I believe, stopped the practice.

[bluess]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.
Y'lost me with D'Onofrio, but I'll take Laurie and Stewart and raise you a Sean Bean.
Why not all three? :D

Gotta love the ladies on this board! Vincent D'Onofrio? Eh... And I'll see your Sean Bean and add a Hugh Jackman.

I suppose one could follow my husband's example. Many years ago, we were invited to an event of this nature and my husband was experiencing the after-effects of a night of beer and Mexican food. If you really want to start one of Cello Man's Giggle Loops, release a Force 9 Gale right after the "let us pray" statement.

BWA HA HA HA

At my last job, we had a 16-year-old girl working in the call centre who was the daughter of a pastor. Very nice girl, but incredibly naive. I remember particularly when she brought in a stack of leaflets explaining how you had to accept Christ into your life or burn in hell forever. And handed one each to her manager and to the owner of the company - both Jewish... :covereyes

We had a grown up fundamentalist Christian try that on the one Indian Catholic in our office. For some reason, she never tried to convert me. I wonder why? :D

I don't believe in fate, but it doesn't care. It just bit me in the ass.

I'm driving early tomorrow to Grand Forks, ND for a funeral tomorrow afternoon. One of my former students and advisees, a wonderful guy named Joel Lovelien, was murdered last Saturday night in Grand Forks.

Complexity, you have my sympathy. I hope the culprits are found, so the you and the rest of the people in Joel's life can have some closure.

I always just go right ahead and swear on the Bible. Since I'm not a Christian, I figure the oath is worthless; I might as well have my fingers crossed behind my back for all the good it does the Court. I could put my hand on the phone book and answer "Yes" to the same dumb oath and the effect would be the same: Nothing. It's a dumb leftover ceremonial thing and I just get it over with as quickly as possible. I can't help smirking to myself a little when I answer though. I think it's the drama---"so help you GAWWD?!?".

I don't feel good about swearing on a bible, or taking part in the ritual aspects of something I don't believe in. I'll show up, be respectful, read the liturgy with interest, sing the songs I like - but I won't take part in response readings, kneelings, and mass is right out. I don't believe, so I don't pretend. If my friends and those surrounding me have an issue, that's their problem.

[Apology]

The above applies to personal gatherings. But massive public events? Does anyone pray at baseball games and auto races?

Yes, I specifically remember being somewhat rude when being asked to pray at a stock-car race (we were supposed to be praying that nobody crashed, I think more than half the people were praying that someone would) and at a Little League Game (I'm not sure what we were praying for that time but I remember eating nachos).

[Smiledriver]

I recently attended the western canadian aboriginal games and they asked us to join in prayer to the great spirit. Being a Christian I just stayed quiet and waited until it was over. I would not bow my head or any such show of reverence.

[JanisChambers]

I normally think about something else, like my bank account, or count many people pray with their lips moving.

[Apology]

I don't feel good about swearing on a bible, or taking part in the ritual aspects of something I don't believe in. I'll show up, be respectful, read the liturgy with interest, sing the songs I like - but I won't take part in response readings, kneelings, and mass is right out. I don't believe, so I don't pretend. If my friends and those surrounding me have an issue, that's their problem.

I look at it this way---if they really want a false oath so badly, I'll give it to them. If making a big deal about not wanting to put my hand on a Bible is going to negatively effect the judge's perception of my veracity (and it will, even though that's discrimination) then I'm just going to take the false oath that they've forced on me. Even attempting to get a slightly different oath is going to make my testimony after that point look suspect to some people. Since I agree with the oath up to the point where it mentions God, not believing in God doesn't actually make taking the false oath a lie----agreeing to "so help you God" could be considered an exaggeration rather than a flat out lie.

Some courtrooms have dispensed with the Bible and the phrase "So help you God" entirely. The bankruptcy court I visited has the petitioner raise their right hand and answer yes or no to "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before the Court today?"

To me it's the same as "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Santa Claus?" I shrug and say, "Sure." I was planning to tell the truth anyway, so invoking Santa doesn't change things.

Then again I've spent some professional time in courtrooms, and the court is more likely to rule in your favor and cut you some slack here and there if you don't make yourself a pain in the butt every time you come in. I had a vested interest in not making an issue out of it; it would have made my day-to-day functioning harder for no real gain. It's not like my refusal would have resulted in abolishment of the oath.

[vexed]

I recently attended the western canadian aboriginal games and they asked us to join in prayer to the great spirit. Being a Christian I just stayed quiet and waited until it was over. I would not bow my head or any such show of reverence.

Sweet, now when I do that at X-Mas with the relatives and I get dirty looks, I'll be able to just say "Well a xtian led by example, and I don't have to follow silly rituals to fictional gods."

[arthwollipot]

I recently attended the western canadian aboriginal games and they asked us to join in prayer to the great spirit. Being a Christian I just stayed quiet and waited until it was over. I would not bow my head or any such show of reverence.

And I do exactly the same to your God, and for exactly the same reasons.

[bluess]

I look at it this way---if they really want a false oath so badly, I'll give it to them. If making a big deal about not wanting to put my hand on a Bible is going to negatively effect the judge's perception of my veracity (and it will, even though that's discrimination) then I'm just going to take the false oath that they've forced on me. Even attempting to get a slightly different oath is going to make my testimony after that point look suspect to some people. Since I agree with the oath up to the point where it mentions God, not believing in God doesn't actually make taking the false oath a lie----agreeing to "so help you God" could be considered an exaggeration rather than a flat out lie.

Some courtrooms have dispensed with the Bible and the phrase "So help you God" entirely. The bankruptcy court I visited has the petitioner raise their right hand and answer yes or no to "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before the Court today?"

To me it's the same as "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Santa Claus?" I shrug and say, "Sure." I was planning to tell the truth anyway, so invoking Santa doesn't change things.

Then again I've spent some professional time in courtrooms, and the court is more likely to rule in your favor and cut you some slack here and there if you don't make yourself a pain in the butt every time you come in. I had a vested interest in not making an issue out of it; it would have made my day-to-day functioning harder for no real gain. It's not like my refusal would have resulted in abolishment of the oath.

There is a pragamatic difference with business situations and social situations. Certainly, I, too, have held my peace when some volunteer Board member has requested that we start a meeting with a prayer, or close it with the same. Especially when it is obvious that everyone in the room is of the same religious persuasion. I have, in private, advised some folks that the action may be seen as discriminatory if I have noted that there is a mix of people in the room. Since I approach this in my role as a manager and not as someone who finds it an annoying waste of time, I usually don't get any flack.

However, if gaining my point means bowing my head and rolling my eyes, I agree with you that there is no difference in my behavior whether I promise to tell the truth, or promise so help me {insert your mythical being here}.

In social situations, again, if my friends and acquaintances don't like me for who I am and what I believe, we need to have a reconciliation of our terms from of friendship.

[Apology]

There is a pragamatic difference with business situations and social situations. Certainly, I, too, have held my peace when some volunteer Board member has requested that we start a meeting with a prayer, or close it with the same. Especially when it is obvious that everyone in the room is of the same religious persuasion. I have, in private, advised some folks that the action may be seen as discriminatory if I have noted that there is a mix of people in the room. Since I approach this in my role as a manager and not as someone who finds it an annoying waste of time, I usually don't get any flack.

However, if gaining my point means bowing my head and rolling my eyes, I agree with you that there is no difference in my behavior whether I promise to tell the truth, or promise so help me {insert your mythical being here}.

In social situations, again, if my friends and acquaintances don't like me for who I am and what I believe, we need to have a reconciliation of our terms from of friendship.

That is an excellent point, and I entirely agree. It's much different when the pressure comes from friends and family.

[Paul W]

Fantasise about the crumpet on show. There is always some worth it.

[Paul W]

Additional reply.

You are a defence witness for a friend in a case where you are convinced that he did not commit the offence of which he is charged. If convicted he would face a prison sentence, which he does not deserve - IN YOUR OPINION.

You are an atheist in a "Christian" country.

In the witness box you can do one of:

(a) Swear on the Bible "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

(b) Affirm "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

You intend to tell the truth as you see it.

Failing to adhere to the convention - that is (a) - might predjudice his case.

What do you do?

I went for (a): he was acquited.

Life ain't that simple. Like turtles, its choices all the way down.

[Apology]

Additional reply.

You are a defence witness for a friend in a case where you are convinced that he did not commit the offence of which he is charged. If convicted he would face a prison sentence, which he does not deserve - IN YOUR OPINION.

You are an atheist in a "Christian" country.

In the witness box you can do one of:

(a) Swear on the Bible "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

(b) Affirm "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

You intend to tell the truth as you see it.

Failing to adhere to the convention - that is (a) - might predjudice his case.

What do you do?

I went for (a): he was acquited.

Life ain't that simple. Like turtles, its choices all the way down.

Same thing I would do. The really ironic part is that winning their trust in this instance requires a lie by omission. If you address the fact that the "God" part doesn't really reflect your personal beliefs, you're untrustworthy. If you swear to the oath even though you don't mean the "so help you God" part, you are trustworthy. They're begging you to fudge the oath. I get a certain satisfaction from giving them what they want.

[Jeff Corey]

Additional reply.

You are a defence witness for a friend in a case where you are convinced that he did not commit the offence of which he is charged. If convicted he would face a prison sentence, which he does not deserve - IN YOUR OPINION.

You are an atheist in a "Christian" country.

In the witness box you can do one of:

(a) Swear on the Bible "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

(b) Affirm "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

You intend to tell the truth as you see it.

Failing to adhere to the convention - that is (a) - might predjudice his case.

What do you do?

I went for (a): he was acquited.

Life ain't that simple. Like turtles, its choices all the way down.

No, it's not simple. There is no way you can know if choosing option b would have changed the outcome. So your anecdote proves nothing.

[arthwollipot]

Additional reply.

You are a defence witness for a friend in a case where you are convinced that he did not commit the offence of which he is charged. If convicted he would face a prison sentence, which he does not deserve - IN YOUR OPINION.

You are an atheist in a "Christian" country.

In the witness box you can do one of:

(a) Swear on the Bible "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

(b) Affirm "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

You intend to tell the truth as you see it.

Failing to adhere to the convention - that is (a) - might predjudice his case.

What do you do?

I went for (a): he was acquited.

Life ain't that simple. Like turtles, its choices all the way down.

How could choosing (b) possibly prejudice the case?

[Dunstan]

How could choosing (b) possibly prejudice the case?

I think the idea is that the jury will notice which oath you swore, realize you're a dirty filthy lying atheist, and discount your testimony accordingly. It's not a far-fetched concern.

[Agular]

I look at it this way---if they really want a false oath so badly, I'll give it to them. If making a big deal about not wanting to put my hand on a Bible is going to negatively effect the judge's perception of my veracity (and it will, even though that's discrimination) then I'm just going to take the false oath that they've forced on me.

Not to mention if the oath is taken in front of a jury which more likely than not consists of mostly Xtians. I would hedge my bets and take the oath also.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Not often going to church, I'm curious to know what other sceptics get up to when asked to "Join in prayer" at a ceremony.


I start playing Tetris on my cell phone. With the sound on.

[Sandy M]

Well, it's snarky, I suppose, but when we had dinner guests (particularly Xmas/Thanksgiving, etc.), and one of them would say, "Let's say grace," our whole family would quickly bow their heads, loudly say "Grace!" and dig in. (Mother - lapsed Episcopalian w/Buddhist leanings, dad - lapsed Catholic - me and my bro - atheist/agnostic).

[Deus Ex Machina]

I wasn't aware that my husband was also a part of this forum. I think he mentally dares someone to look up from their prayer, realize he's not praying and give him a dirty look.

I however bow my head, leave my eyes open. I grew up xian, prayer isn't an uncomfortable thing for me. When I'm at my mom's house and grandma's over, we pray before dinner. "Come lord jesus, be our guest and let thy gifts to us we blessed?? amen". I'm still not sure if I'm saying it right, but it makes grandma happy. I'm her favorite so I'm not going to protest.


My most intolerant moment was on a ferry from Helsinki to Stockholm. During the early part of the afternoon I had struck up a conversation with an american couple as we sat in the lounge and we went on into the cafeteria to get dinner. Up to this point everything had been hunky and dory.

We go through the line, grab out eats and we're sitting down at the table when she (who was very good looking I have to say) turns to me and says "Mick, would you lead us in saying grace?".

I have never, in my life, been able to resist a straight line.

"All hail the powers of darkness..."

The end of a beautiful friendship.

[tsg]

So your anecdote proves nothing.

I don't believe it was meant to. At least, I didn't read it that way.

[arthwollipot]

I think the idea is that the jury will notice which oath you swore, realize you're a dirty filthy lying atheist, and discount your testimony accordingly. It's not a far-fetched concern.

I forgot that I was dealing with America. My bad. Here in Australia this wouldn't influence the case at all.

[triadboy]

I forgot that I was dealing with America. My bad. Here in Australia this wouldn't influence the case at all.

America has a sliver of Calvinism (?) in it. The disturbing thought that someone, somewhere is having fun.

[Dunstan]

I forgot that I was dealing with America. My bad. Here in Australia this wouldn't influence the case at all.

It wouldn't necessarily influence it in America, either. I think that, regardless of what they say about atheists in opinion surveys, most theists would be fair and judge the truthfulness of one particular atheist's testimony the same way they'd judge anyone else's, and that's assuming they even noticed the difference in oaths.

But in the hypothetical that was being discussed, I wouldn't risk my friend's fate on it.

[Smiledriver]

Sweet, now when I do that at X-Mas with the relatives and I get dirty looks, I'll be able to just say "Well a xtian led by example, and I don't have to follow silly rituals to fictional gods."

It's spelt Christian actually and despite the tone, good for you. You have to do what you have to do...at least your taking this stuff seriously. As everyone should.

[Smiledriver]

And I do exactly the same to your God, and for exactly the same reasons.

Alright man.

[Paul W]

No, it's not simple. There is no way you can know if choosing option b would have changed the outcome. So your anecdote proves nothing.

My anecdote was not intended to "prove" anything and, sure, I don't know if affirming would have resulted in a different verdict. The point I was trying to make was that:

(a) swearing an oath on the Bible would offend no one - even an atheist would be most likely to say something along the lines of "poor deluded sucker" and leave it at that;

(b) affirming might offend the Christians on the jury and cause them to disregard my evidence.

It might also offend the judge, and if you have not sat through a judge's summing up in a criminal trial, you don't realise just how much influence the judge has over the jury. They are totally lost and, in effect, are waiting for the judge to tell them what to think.

[ImaginalDisc]

It's spelt Christian actually and despite the tone, good for you. You have to do what you have to do...at least your taking this stuff seriously. As everyone should.

X has been used as an abreviation for Jesus Christ as for as long as there have been Christians, it's the Greek letter Chi and the first letter in "Χριστος," "Christ."

Learn your religion, please. You're embarassing yourself.

[drzeus99]

If you say the Lord's Prayer backwards, you can hear heavy metal music.

Actually, I tried that as a youngster and coulda sworn that I heard:
"I killed Paul"

[my_wan]

I sit or stand accordingly, and quietly contemplate an assignation with Vincent D'Onofrio, Hugh Laurie, or Patrick Stewart, depending upon my mood.

Hmmm... Hugh Laurie? Gives me hope of making that list.:monkey1:

[godless dave]

Hasn't happened since my grandmother's memorial a few years ago. I just sat there and waited for my uncle to finish.

[godless dave]

In Australia we are given the choice to take either the Oath or the Affirmation. They are identical, except that the Oath mentions God and the Affirmation does not.

I love living in Australia.


This is the case in the US too, but there are a few judges who didn't get the memo from 1787.

[Macoy]

As a child in church, and obeying the instruction to "kneel and pray", I discovered that I could make many different shapes with my hands, which led to my interest in model aeroplanes.

[Autolite]

I usually keep my eyes open and look around.

Me too! It's interesting to see how many others are looking around also. There's more of us than you might think ...

[Paul W]

It wouldn't necessarily influence it in America, either. I think that, regardless of what they say about atheists in opinion surveys, most theists would be fair and judge the truthfulness of one particular atheist's testimony the same way they'd judge anyone else's, and that's assuming they even noticed the difference in oaths.

But in the hypothetical that was being discussed, I wouldn't risk my friend's fate on it.

It wasn't hypothetical. It was for real.

[Kaiser]

It wouldn't necessarily influence it in America, either. I think that, regardless of what they say about atheists in opinion surveys, most theists would be fair and judge the truthfulness of one particular atheist's testimony the same way they'd judge anyone else's, and that's assuming they even noticed the difference in oaths.


I disagree - particularly if this is taking place in the south. A lot of people take their religion VERY seriously down here and I think they'd turn on you quickly and ferociously as soon as they found out you weren't "one of them".

Then again, that's just my feeling/opinion. Someone should do a study on it and see what turns up.