Victory for Democracy in Israel

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/919057.html

An Israeli judge has ordered that a Jewish town in Israel must set aside land for an Arab family. This is a victory for Israel as a democratic state.

It is true that Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries treat Jews like crap. This is horrible and should be protested daily.

The only difference between the Arabs states and Israel, is that Israel, unlike the Arab states, claims to be the "only true democracy in the Middle East". They demand extraordinary aid, political support, and military defense..all based on these "shared" values.

Well, if Israel is truly a democratic state, then discrimination against non-Jews cannot be allowed. I applaud Israel for this brave decision.

This is a victory for democracy and freedom..and a defeat for fascism.

[Freddy]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/919057.html

An Israeli judge has ordered that a Jewish town in Israel must set aside land for an Arab family. This is a victory for Israel as a democratic state.

It is true that Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries treat Jews like crap. This is horrible and should be protested daily.

The only difference between the Arabs states and Israel, is that Israel, unlike the Arab states, claims to be the "only true democracy in the Middle East". They demand extraordinary aid, political support, and military defense..all based on these "shared" values.

Well, if Israel is truly a democratic state, then discrimination against non-Jews cannot be allowed. I applaud Israel for this brave decision.

This is a victory for democracy and freedom..and a defeat for fascism.

What does fascism have to do with this story? Sorry, pet peeve.

[Thunder]

I consider anyone who wants to segregate people and treat people like second-class citizens, based on their ethnicity, to be fascists. I know its a stretch.

[Elind]

Israel is a democracy by any comparison with Arab states, however how do you think the structure of Israels democracy would fare if superimposed on the US; or to look at it a little differently suppose we gave Catholics in the US all the rights and powers that Jews (religious Jews in particular) have in Israel?

[Darth Rotor]

I consider anyone who wants to segregate people and treat people like second-class citizens, based on their ethnicity, to be fascists. I know its a stretch.

Not a stretch, simply lousy choice of words with the aim of triggering an emotive reaction.

Islamofascist ring any bells, parky? :p

DR

[JoeEllison]

Why does it sound like Israel has laws on the books that create institutional racism?

[Darth Rotor]

Why does it sound like Israel has laws on the books that create institutional racism?
Could it be the fact that it was set up, at the outset, as a Jewish state?

I don't think they can be charged with anti Semitism, what with Arabs being Semites, so at least they are clean there. :D

DR

[Thunder]

Darth- are you comfortable with Israel giving Jewish citizens preferential treatment over Arab citizens? Do you really think the only way Zionism can be fulfilled is by discriminating against certain ethnic groups?

There is nothing anti-Zionist about an Arab family living in a mostly Jewish village. This is about segregation and bigotry, pure and simple.

As I've said, Israel can always, if it chooses, strip its Arab citizens of full citizenship and allow discrimination in housing, employment, and education. But then it would no longer be "the only true democracy in the Middle East". Its their choice.

[Beerina]

A state where Jews can be free and feel safe is not the same as a Jewish theocracy, or a democratic Jewish theocracy.

[Darth Rotor]

Darth- are you comfortable with Israel giving Jewish citizens preferential treatment over Arab citizens? Do you really think the only way Zionism can be fulfilled is by discriminating against certain ethnic groups?
What are you talking about, Scarecrow? Go whinge to a Zionist, which I am most certainly not. (Ferchrissakes, I'm not Jewish, and I think the US spends too much money on its Israel habit.) I was sorta agreeing with Joe about a core problem in Israel's set up.

Here is a nickel, parky, go rent a clue.

As to your last passage, I don't give a flying crap what laws Israel does or doesn't pass. They pass stupid laws, they'll likely have trouble down stream. (That is true for a lot of places.) The Israelis provide delightful entertainment for all and sundry, what with their long running feud with the Pals, their various neighbors, and so on. I consider the bulk of the US money sent to them, particularly forgiven loans, a waste of American taxpayer dollars.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

A state where Jews can be free and feel safe is not the same as a Jewish theocracy, or a democratic Jewish theocracy.
Sound like you are talking about America, Brother Beer. Or did I miss a memo, and fail to note the Brownshirts taking over?

DR

[steverino]

...Ferchrissakes, I'm not Jewish...

DR

:D

[Elind]

Why does it sound like Israel has laws on the books that create institutional racism?

Why does it sound like you equate "racism" (the word) with religious biases?;)

[Thunder]

saying "racism" is easier then saying "religousism"

[Schneibster]

Spelling it appears to be easier too.

[The Fool]

Israel is a democracy by any comparison with Arab states, however how do you think the structure of Israels democracy would fare if superimposed on the US; or to look at it a little differently suppose we gave Catholics in the US all the rights and powers that Jews (religious Jews in particular) have in Israel?
I think the structure of Israeli "democracy" would simply be intollerable in a US setting. Quite simply...I believe the American people would rise up and eliminate it. However, they will continue to happily spend a lot of money to defends it and perpetuate it..... in Israel.

[gtc]

I think the structure of Israeli "democracy" would simply be intollerable in a US setting. Quite simply...I believe the American people would rise up and eliminate it. However, they will continue to happily spend a lot of money to defends it and perpetuate it..... in Israel.

And if rockets were being launched over the Canadian or Mexican borders? Or if a terrorist organisation was elected to the Government of Mexico with a statement like this in its charter:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Do you think the 'American people would rise up and eliminate it'?

[The Fool]

And if rockets were being launched over the Canadian or Mexican borders? Or if a terrorist organisation was elected to the Government of Mexico with a statement like this in its charter:



Do you think the 'American people would rise up and eliminate it'?
eliminate what? The military threat against them? Most certainly.....How about a different class of citizenship for Americans of Canadian origin? How about compulsory registration of citizens so that they have thier class of citizensip ("American" or "Canukamerican") on thier ID cards? How do you think that would go in a nation founded on principles like below

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it"

Great words indeed.....

More or less liberty for different classes of american citizens? Unlikely imho....

[gtc]

The US may not be a good example as they managed to combine those fine words with slavery for nearly 100 years.


eliminate what? The military threat against them? Most certainly.....

Do you think they would use tactics similar to those employed by the Israeli military?

[The Fool]

The US may not be a good example as they managed to combine those fine words with slavery for nearly 100 years.

That is correct, it sometimes takes some period of time for basic principles of justice to win over bigotry....do you think it is best to place impediments in the way of the bigotry or to show understanding, tolerance and financial support?





Do you think they would use tactics similar to those employed by the Israeli military?
I think it would be highly unlikely.

[JoeEllison]

Could it be the fact that it was set up, at the outset, as a Jewish state?

I don't think they can be charged with anti Semitism, what with Arabs being Semites, so at least they are clean there. :D

DRNevertheless, a nation created on religious and racial lines is bound to run into situations that certainly seem like bigotry to an outside observer.

[gtc]

do you think it is best to place impediments in the way of the bigotry or to show understanding, tolerance and financial support?

Does the US provide understanding of, tolerance for and financial support for the differential treatment of Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis?

Or are they providing support etc for Israel while not prodding Israel towards the full recognition of Arab-Israelis? In much the same way that the US overlooks the Saudis treatment of non-Muslims without actively encouraging it.

I think it would be highly unlikely.

What do you think they would do differently?

[JoeEllison]

Does the US provide understanding of, tolerance for and financial support for the differential treatment of Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis?

Or are they providing support etc for Israel while not prodding Israel towards the full recognition of Arab-Israelis? In much the same way that the US overlooks the Saudis treatment of non-Muslims without actively encouraging it.

That's kind of the same thing, isn't it?

[The Fool]

Does the US provide understanding of, tolerance for and financial support for the differential treatment of Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis?

In my view yes...... For example, when Israel was under a Likud government that government also had a charter....that charter categorically ruled out any palestinian nation. So you had a government saying they were interested in negotiation yet had a charter that stated in black and white that there was little point in negotiation because paletinian nationhood was non negotiable. Any calls to remove that charter?



Or are they providing support etc for Israel while not prodding Israel towards the full recognition of Arab-Israelis? In much the same way that the US overlooks the Saudis treatment of non-Muslims without actively encouraging it.

I think thats an accurate summation and I can't see much difference between your two statements.. The question is why the US chooses to not make thier support conditional on Israel not behaving in ways that are in conflict with American principles of justice and equality. I believe that US governments throughout history and the large majority of US citizens support the principle of different classes of citizens in Israel because they support the idea that Jews in the home of the Jews should be entitled to do it....that material support for Israel should not be conditional on this activity and should not be manipulated in an attempt to influence it. I don't agree.



What do you think they would do differently?

Look at Iraq immediately after the invasion and fall of the Hussein regime. The reformation of an Iraqi sovereign nation was a priority....where was a US principle that said all violence will have to end before any steps are taken to form an Iraqi nation? Nope. The principle was get them up as a nation asap...

[Elind]

I think the structure of Israeli "democracy" would simply be intollerable in a US setting. Quite simply...I believe the American people would rise up and eliminate it. However, they will continue to happily spend a lot of money to defends it and perpetuate it..... in Israel.

Not often I agree with you, but I do in the first part. As to the second, I suppose we see a better chance for that improving than the alternatives, unless of course we are among those who see the whole think in prophetic terms.....presidents included it seems.

[Cleon]

As an side:

I just want to chime in an give props to the people in this thread. It's rare that this topic actually turns toward calm, rational discussion.

My hat is off to you.

[Tailgater]

I think the structure of Israeli "democracy" would simply be intollerable in a US setting. Quite simply...I believe the American people would rise up and eliminate it. However, they will continue to happily spend a lot of money to defends it and perpetuate it..... in Israel.

That is correct, it sometimes takes some period of time for basic principles of justice to win over bigotry....do you think it is best to place impediments in the way of the bigotry or to show understanding, tolerance and financial support?

I think the majority of Americans believe that a "democracy" in place and supported has at least the potential of rising up to be better over time. The fact that the populace can elect for change is good even if it takes decades or more to catch up to what we consider western standards. Even the west is not what it could be in tolerance and justice, but the means to reach those goals are in place and neverending baby steps have gone on through history, and hopefully time does heal all wounds.

That being said, the US does have the "lesser of two evils" problem. Who do you support when neither side is the ideal. Do you support the side that has the most "potential" to reflect the tolerance we wave around? Who is intolerant based on fear of death and who is intolerant based on wanting to cause death? Both? It's hard to read a charter like gtc posted from an "elected governent" and think otherwise.

Is the support helping to end or continue the problems?

Does Israel even need the support?
I don't think so, outside of diplomacy.

[Darth Rotor]

Nevertheless, a nation created on religious and racial lines is bound to run into situations that certainly seem like bigotry to an outside observer.
Captured my thought better than I did. Thanks, Joe.

DR

[The Fool]

As an side:

I just want to chime in an give props to the people in this thread. It's rare that this topic actually turns toward calm, rational discussion.

My hat is off to you.
Naff off you troublemaking Dalek......!!!!