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View Full Version : It's time for me to preach for you blasphemeous sinners.


Lord Kenneth
10th September 2003, 10:41 PM
*clears throat*

....
The use of this awful subject may be for awakening unconverted persons in this congregation. This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ.-That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone, is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of, there is nothing between you and hell but the air; it is only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.

You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but do not see the hand of God in it; but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his band, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it.

Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and if God should let you go, you would immediately sink and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf, and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock. Were it not for the sovereign pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption, not willingly; the sun does not willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and Satan; the earth does not willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air does not willingly serve you for breath to maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God's enemies. God's creatures are good, and were made for men to serve God with, and do not willingly subserve to any other purpose, and groan when they are abused to purposes so directly contrary to their nature and end. And the world would spew you out, were it not for the sovereign hand of him who hath subjected it in hope. There are black clouds of God's wrath now hanging directly over your heads, full of the dreadful storm, and big with thunder; and were it not for the restraining hand of God, it would immediately burst forth upon you. The sovereign pleasure of God, for the present, stays his rough wind; otherwise it would come with fury, and your destruction would come like a whirlwind, and you would be like the chaff of the summer threshing floor.

The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the mean time is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If God should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood. Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God. However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for destruction came suddenly upon most of them; when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, Peace and safety: now they see, that those things on which they depended for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment. And consider here more particularly

1. Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God. If it were only the wrath of man, though it were of the most potent prince, it would be comparatively little to be regarded. The wrath of kings is very much dreaded, especially of absolute monarchs, who have the possessions and lives of their subjects wholly in their power, to be disposed of at their mere will. Prov. 20:2. "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: Whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul." The subject that very much enrages an arbitrary prince, is liable to suffer the most extreme torments that human art can invent, or human power can inflict. But the greatest earthly potentates in their greatest majesty and strength, and when clothed in their greatest terrors, are but feeble, despicable worms of the dust, in comparison of the great and almighty Creator and King of heaven and earth. It is but little that they can do, when most enraged, and when they have exerted the utmost of their fury. All the kings of the earth, before God, are as grasshoppers; they are nothing, and less than nothing: both their love and their hatred is to be despised. The wrath of the great King of kings, is as much more terrible than theirs, as his majesty is greater. Luke 12:4, 5. "And I say unto you, my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that, have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: fear him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell: yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

2. It is the fierceness of his wrath that you are exposed to. We often read of the fury of God; as in Isaiah lix. 18. "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So Isaiah 66:15. "For behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." And in many other places. So, Rev. 19:15, we read of "the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible. If it had only been said, "the wrath of God," the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful: but it is "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! the fierceness of Jehovah! Oh, how dreadful must that be! Who can utter or conceive what such expressions carry in them! But it is also "the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." As though there would be a very great manifestation of his almighty power in what the fierceness of his wrath should inflict, as though omnipotence should be as it were enraged, and exerted, as men are wont to exert their strength in the fierceness of their wrath. Oh! then, what will be the consequence! What will become of the poor worms that shall suffer it! Whose hands can be strong? And whose heart can endure? To what a dreadful, inexpressible, inconceivable depth of misery must the poor creature be sunk who shall be the subject of this!

Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity. When God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom; he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much in any other sense, than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires. Nothing shall be withheld, because it is so hard for you to bear. Ezek. viii. 18. "Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity you; this is a day of mercy; you may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to your welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock," Prov. 1:25, 26, &c.

How awful are those words, Isa. 63:3, which are the words of the great God. "I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." It is perhaps impossible to conceive of words that carry in them greater manifestations of these three things, vis. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation. If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favour, that instead of that, he will only tread you under foot. And though he will know that you cannot bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he will not regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he will crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment. He will not only hate you, but he will have you, in the utmost contempt: no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is. God hath had it on his heart to show to angels and men, both how excellent his love is, and also how terrible his wrath is. Sometimes earthly kings have a mind to show how terrible their wrath is, by the extreme punishments they would execute on those that would provoke them. Nebuchadnezzar, that mighty and haughty monarch of the Chaldean empire, was willing to show his wrath when enraged with Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego; and accordingly gave orders that the burning fiery furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was before; doubtless, it was raised to the utmost degree of fierceness that human art could raise it. But the great God is also willing to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies. Rom. 9:22. "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endure with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?" And seeing this is his design, and what he has determined, even to show how terrible the unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is, he will do it to effect. There will be something accomplished and brought to pass that will be dreadful with a witness. When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner, and the wretch is actually suffering the infinite weight and power of his indignation, then will God call upon the whole universe to behold that awful majesty and mighty power that is to be seen in it. Isa. 33:12-14. "And the people shall be as the burnings of lime, as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites," &c.

Thus it will be with you that are in an unconverted state, if you continue in it; the infinite might, and majesty, and terribleness of the omnipotent God shall be magnified upon you, in the ineffable strength of your torments. You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty. Isa. lxvi. 23, 24. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
4. It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?"

How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in the danger of this great wrath and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious, they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old! There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have. It may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation, that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But, alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder, if some that are now present should not be in hell in a very short time, even before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some persons, that now sit here, in some seats of this meeting-house, in health, quiet and secure, should be there before to-morrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest will be there in a little time! your damnation does not slumber; it will come swiftly, and, in all probability, very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder that you are not already in hell. It is doubtless the case of some whom you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you. Their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned hopeless souls give for one day's opportunity such as you now enjoy!

And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield*, where they are flocking from day to day to Christ?

Are there not many here who have lived long in the world, and are not to this day born again? and so are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and have done nothing ever since they have lived, but treasure up wrath against the day of wrath? Oh, sirs, your case, in an especial manner, is extremely dangerous. Your guilt and hardness of heart is extremely great. Do you not see how generally persons of your years are passed over and left, in the present remarkable and wonderful dispensation of God's mercy? You had need to consider yourselves, and awake thoroughly out of sleep. You cannot bear the fierceness and wrath of the infinite God.-And you, young men, and young women, will you neglect this precious season which you now enjoy, when so many others of your age are renouncing all youthful vanities, and flocking to Christ? You especially have now an extraordinary opportunity; but if you neglect it, it will soon be with you as with those persons who spent all the precious days of youth in sin, and are now come to such a dreadful pass in blindness and hardness. And you, children, who are unconverted, do not you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God, who is now angry with you every day and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now harken to the loud calls of God's word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, a day of such great favours to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others. Men's hearts harden, and their guilt increases apace at such a day as this, if they neglect their souls; and never was there so great danger of such persons being given up to hardness of heart and blindness of mind. God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the greater part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on the great out-pouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles' days; the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you, you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God's Spirit, and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the axe is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree which brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down and cast into the fire.

Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation: Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

Oh yes, Johnathan Edwards the 17th century preacher wrote that.

MRC_Hans
10th September 2003, 10:47 PM
*yawn* :slp:

The beginning of thy speach, we have forgotten. The end of thy speech we did not understand, having forgotten the beginning.

Hans

Lord Kenneth
10th September 2003, 10:49 PM
God has already decided that you're going to Hell. Satan will stick you on his pitchfork and roast you like a marshmellow at a boy scout camp. Burn, heathen.

Some Friggin Guy
10th September 2003, 11:04 PM
Lord Kenny,

This would be a really frightening speach if none of us knew how to think for ourselves.

I hate to break it to you, but once one understands that the concept of hell, as brought forth in the judeo-christian religion is little more than a fairy tale stolen from earlier religions and was designed to scare uneducated people into submission under power-hungry slime-bags with no actual claim to rule, then the threat of hell is empty rhetoric.

If you are looking for empty rhetoric, try this on for size.

SInce you have denied the pure beauty of Mithras and the father Ahura-Mazda, you will freeze naked in the wastes ruled by Ahriman.

Or if that is not to your liking...

You are behaving in a way which shall acrue negative karma. When you die, and are reincarnated, you will most likely be set forth in the real of hungry ghosts, there to live in misery for a lifetime before you die again, and if you have not gained enough good karma, you will, perhaps, be reborn into the seven hells. Chances are, someone as base as yourself will never acheive Nirvana.

Still not a good enough rhetoric?

You deny Allah. You shall never acheive paradise.

How about this?

You shall never die a warrior's death, being the coward you are. You shall be relegated to hel, and never reach the halls of Valhalla.

Still not good enough.

As a human, you shall never reach Sto'h Va Kor.

You see the problem. All of this is total fiction. Your sentiments are just as silly to any thinking person.

(Edit: Sorry, took me a bit of time to realize you were joking.)

UnrepentantSinner
10th September 2003, 11:47 PM
Shouldn't a copywritten speech have some sort of credit given to the author, esepcially if it's cut and pasted in its entirety?

Yahzi
11th September 2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Shouldn't a copywritten speech have some sort of credit given to the author, esepcially if it's cut and pasted in its entirety?
I didn't think Kenneth had that kind of writing skill.

Nice job, Kenny-boy. You've committed a crime, wasted our time, and lowered your repuation yet another notch.

Is there any reason people can't refrain from kicking themselves in the face?

ceo_esq
11th September 2003, 02:01 AM
That speech is in the public domain - no copyright. I recognize it (or most of it) as coming from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", written by Jonathan Edwards in the first half of the 18th century. It's in most big anthologies of American literature.

UnrepentantSinner
11th September 2003, 02:05 AM
Thanks ceo_esq, I didn't recognize it, but after scanning the first sentence, I knew it wasn't our dear young Ken's pen responsible for this opus. I guess I pulled an Ian Rowland. :o

ceo_esq
11th September 2003, 02:08 AM
It still would have been nice to see an attribution to the author.

Pahansiri
11th September 2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
*clears throat*

....
burning brimstone, i dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open;

bottomless gulf, keep you out of hell, than a spider's web God's enemies. God's wrath come with fury, and your destruction

The wrath of God is like great waters executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance wrath; the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God,

The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, angry God, drunk with your blood. angry God. everlasting destruction.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked:
his wrath towards you burns like fire;

he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire;
hateful venomous serpent

God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, wrath,

1. Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God.

Prov. 20:2. "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: Whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul."

enrages suffer the most extreme torments greatest terrors, are but feeble, despicable worms ,when most enraged, fury. hatred is to be despised. The wrath of the great King of kings, is as much more terrible than theirs, kill fear: fear him, killed, hath power to cast into hell: yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

fierceness of his, fury of God; fury to his adversaries." his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." T
"the wrath of God," "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! the fierceness of Jehovah! Oh, how dreadful must that be! fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." the fierceness of his wrath should inflict, fierceness of their wrath.
consequence! What will become of the poor worms that shall suffer it! dreadful, inexpressible, inconceivable depth of misery must the poor creature be sunk who shall be the subject of this!

That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity.
your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom;
he will have no compassion upon you,

the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand;

there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind;

he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much in any other sense,
\
than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires.

Nothing shall be withheld, because it is so hard for you to bear.

Ezek. viii. 18. "Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them."

your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away

but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end;

for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock," Prov. 1:25, 26, &c.

. "I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."

. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation.

weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he will not regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy;

he will crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment.

He will not only hate you, but he will have you, in the utmost contempt:

no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is.

and also how terrible his wrath is.
wrath is, by the extreme punishments t

burning fiery furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was before;

to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies.

Rom. 9:22. "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endure with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?"

unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is,

When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner,

"And the people shall be as the burnings of lime, as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites," &c.

this state of suffering,

the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is;


4. It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

absolutely despair
merciless vengeance;
"who knows the power of God's anger?"

great wrath and infinite misery!


subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of!

awful sight

I point out just a few of the very loving words and Attributes of the most high and loving god.

A God/Father of great unconiditional love on his way to beat, tear apart and kill his children.

Truly loving, agreat example for all young fathers.

This fine example of a father would be jailed by any family and or court in the world.


Consider this

If

“1 John 4:8] ...God is love.”
And
“[1 Cor 13:5] Love...keeps no record of wrongs.”
And
“..Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;...it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;...it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right...Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues,they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away...[1Cor 13:4-8]”
and
“[1John 4:18.8] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.”””
Then
1) it is clear”he” keeps no record of wrongs and does not judge.
2) “he” is not a “jealous” God.
3) “he” has no ego and can not demand to or wish to be worshiped or placed before any other
4) “he” does NOT “insist on his own way”
5) Does not want to be feared in any way.
And 6) does not punish.

Seems clear ,and to not believe what I have said means he does not believe the Bible which you see as the word of God.

hal bidlack
11th September 2003, 06:21 AM
Ken,

please edit your post to include a proper citation. It is required for intellectual honesty.

homunculus
11th September 2003, 07:44 AM
I'm a bit confused as to why you quite Ingersoll, Dawkins, and other famous non-religious types in your Signature box, then unleash this "terrifying" sermon...but what the hell (get it?)

Hell is an Orphic concept, a Greek one, as is the Logos ("In the beginning, there was the Word..." is a mistranslation of "Logos") and most of the New Testament story. The Christ figure is a composite chracter, incorporating many earlier, mythical Saviour-gods (Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, Mithras etc. etc. etc.) and his story is pure allegory. Even Christian symbology such as the cross (statuettes predating the Comman Era show Dionysus hung on a cross); the traditional beared image of Jesus (shown as Dionysus, again, on ancient coins); rituals such as baptism and the eucharist; dates for Christian holy days; the papacy...all Pagan.

Check out this link by Earl Doherty, a respected scholar and writer for the Journal of Higher Criticism:

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your whole religion is just a Jewish sectarian re-working of ancient Pagan cults. What's more, the initiates of the Pagan "mystery" schools did NOT regard their own stories as literal history...which pretty much wraps up the case for a single, literal, historical founder of Christianity (even if there was, the Gospel story takes only his name, with perhaps a few scattered refrences to historical times and places thrown in).

So there goes the Revealed Word...

What other evidence (other than your flat proclamations and unsubstantiated assertions) do you have that I should believe in this Hell place?

That it isn't just more human myth-making?

Paul.

roger
11th September 2003, 08:20 AM
Kenneth,

Thanks for posting this. It's depressing to see how preachers used (and still use) fear to control people's thinking.

To the people arguing w/ the sermon - Kenneth is _against_ this kind of thinking, as far as I have ever observed.

homunculus
11th September 2003, 08:34 AM
DOH!

Okay Kenny, very funny. The mismatch between the quotes in your Signature and the content of your post should have clued me in, but it's Friday.

Well okay, it's not Friday. But's near the end of the day before Friday, which is perhaps even more disorientating...

So there.

Paul.

UKBoy1977
11th September 2003, 08:49 AM
I can only assume the people who didn't realise this wasn't representing Kenneth's philosophies don't frequent this forum very often!!

ceo_esq
11th September 2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by homonculus
Check out this link by Earl Doherty, a respected scholar and writer for the Journal of Higher Criticism:Just as a caveat, Doherty is not a professional scholar, as far as I know. I think he has just a bachelor's degree and has never held a teaching or research post.

Silicon
11th September 2003, 09:52 AM
Ahhh... Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God.

You just brought me back to high school literature class.

I loved that.

Thanks Kenneth, for the best hellfire preachin that ever was preached. It has an awesome beauty to it.

Pahansiri
11th September 2003, 10:52 AM
The person who gave that loving talk was Jonathan Edwards 1703-1758.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by hal bidlack
Ken,

please edit your post to include a proper citation. It is required for intellectual honesty.

Considering this isn't exactly a statistic or anything of the like, and mostly opinion, I fail to see how "intellectual dishonesty" plays into this.

Next time someone quotes someone-- no matter how big or small the quote is-- I expect you to mention something.

Sundog
11th September 2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Lord Kenneth


Considering this isn't exactly a statistic or anything of the like, and mostly opinion, I fail to see how "intellectual dishonesty" plays into this.

Next time someone quotes someone-- no matter how big or small the quote is-- I expect you to mention something.

Do you want to get voted off the island AGAIN, fool? Everyone plays by this rule, and everyone but you knows it. Shut up and cite the quote.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by ceo_esq
It still would have been nice to see an attribution to the author.

I have done so as Hal has requested me to. However, I did expect someone to notice and say something, like you did. If not I would have said so anyways.

This topic was half joke and half showing how people were scared into believing religion. I didn't want to include the name immediately because that would kill the joke.

I thought it was extremely obvious this wasn't my writing.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Sundog


Do you want to get voted off the island AGAIN, fool? Everyone plays by this rule, and everyone but you knows it. Shut up and cite the quote.

How can I shut up and cite the quote at the same time? :rolleyes:

Also, you said "voted off the island". You forgot to mention where that came from.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 02:05 PM
The severity of me not posting the author originally is about that of me humming Beethoven's 9th Symphony around people and not mentioning who composed it.

:rolleyes:

Checkmite
11th September 2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
The severity of me not posting the author originally is about that of me humming Beethoven's 9th Symphony around people and not mentioning who composed it.

:rolleyes:

Copyright law, and the rules of this forum, allow you to quote small sections ("fair use") of large works such as the one you posted. Attributions are considered good form and professional, but not necessary.

However, if you are to post the entirety of a large work such as the one you posted, you must give an attribute. That's simply the way it works.

Of course, you can paraphrase the entire thing without having to attribute anything - that would be like "humming" a symphony. Of course, if you were to bring out an orchestra and play the whole thing, yes you would have to mention who composed it.

arcticpenguin
11th September 2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Copyright law, and the rules of this forum, allow you to quote small sections ("fair use") of large works such as the one you posted. Attributions are considered good form and professional, but not necessary.

However, if you are to post the entirety of a large work such as the one you posted, you must give an attribute. That's simply the way it works.

Of course, you can paraphrase the entire thing without having to attribute anything - that would be like "humming" a symphony. Of course, if you were to bring out an orchestra and play the whole thing, yes you would have to mention who composed it.
I would think the copyright protection on that piece would have expired long ago, so I don't think it's a matter of law. Giving credit where due is always good form though.

hal bidlack
11th September 2003, 03:08 PM
Ken,

Exactly how far is that bee up your butt anyway? When you quote something here, you should cite it. Common sense is allowed, but when you quote a massive piece from some other author, INCLUDE THE DANG LINK and the NAME of the author.

Why are you suddenly pushing me so hard? Do you want a suspension for some secret purpose? Shape up.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Copyright law, and the rules of this forum, allow you to quote small sections ("fair use") of large works such as the one you posted. Attributions are considered good form and professional, but not necessary.

However, if you are to post the entirety of a large work such as the one you posted, you must give an attribute. That's simply the way it works.

Of course, you can paraphrase the entire thing without having to attribute anything - that would be like "humming" a symphony. Of course, if you were to bring out an orchestra and play the whole thing, yes you would have to mention who composed it.

The work, as previously noted, is public domain, and thus I am not required by law to mention who first wrote/composed it.

Many cartoons, especially older ones, included classical music during the cartoon to give it a background sound. To my knowledge they didn't mention that in the credits. It's public domain. Anyone can use it.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by hal bidlack
Ken,

Exactly how far is that bee up your butt anyway? When you quote something here, you should cite it. Common sense is allowed, but when you quote a massive piece from some other author, INCLUDE THE DANG LINK and the NAME of the author.

Why are you suddenly pushing me so hard? Do you want a suspension for some secret purpose? Shape up.

You're the one pushing me. I don't see what your obsession with picking on me is.

I have already included who the author was. I was going to tell if no one got it, anyways.

I wasn't trying to keep this a secret. This is a public domain work, not a copyrighted one.


Also, I have noted you threatening me with suspension for your own personal reasons. :rolleyes:

I was, however, very tempted to post Thomas Paine's Common Sense without a citation just now... ;)

hal bidlack
11th September 2003, 03:42 PM
Ken,

It must be satisfying for you to have such a greater knowledge of liberty, free speech, copyright, and the American Founding than me. All I bring to the table is a Ph.D. in American politics, 12 years of teaching college, 45 years of life experience and 22 years of military service. That's assuming, of course, that you believe me. If not, perhaps you should start another thread demanding that I post my diploma.

Thank god you are here to keep me straight.

Look, I insist that things here be properly cited. It's in the rules. Please play by the rules.

Oh, and the notion that *I* am picking on *you* is laughable, if I had a sense of humor.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by hal bidlack
Ken,

Look, I insist that things here be properly cited. It's in the rules. Please play by the rules.



And I had edited in the post credits to the author by your request.

However, I do take issue with the fact that I am breaking any law by not citing this. This is why cartoons can put in classical music without "citing" the source. Anyways, who is going to sue? The person's ghost???

Dancing David
11th September 2003, 05:57 PM
Dear Ken, The first lesson of maturity is to not beat a dead horse. The second lesson is to learn that the world does not revolve around you, there are times that things happen as a result of the choices you make.

So is there a bee in your butt? Could you give me the species name?

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Dancing David
Dear Ken, The first lesson of maturity is to not beat a dead horse. The second lesson is to learn that the world does not revolve around you, there are times that things happen as a result of the choices you make.

So is there a bee in your butt? Could you give me the species name?


This is not relevent to my topic in any shape or form.

jj
11th September 2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Lord Kenneth



This is not relevent to my topic in any shape or form.

No, but it's quite relevant to your replies to Hal.

Saying politely: but it's not copyrighted any more
would have been ok.

Saying: Ok, I cited it anyhow
would have been ok.

But why pick a fight?

Also, while it's not required by law to cite an out-of-copyright piece, it is polite and proper...

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 06:39 PM
But I did... I cited it the first time I read Hal's post.

LeFevre
11th September 2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
But I did... I cited it the first time I read Hal's post.

Well done

c4ts
11th September 2003, 07:21 PM
There is no escape from horrible immolation in the pits of hell but the mere pleasure of God. The truth of this observation lies within these poorly thought out and unproven considerations.

1. You all deserve to be cast into hell, where you will writhe beneath mountains of brimstone in lakes of fire. Divine justice shall never stand in the way, for it will not hold against God’s whim to smite you!
2. You are already under a sentence of condominiums from hell, and not even the mightiest house-hunter can withstand the fury of a parade of homes.
3. The Wrath of God shall not be upon you until the next time I sneeze. When He comes, He shall bury all creatures beneath his almighty foot!
4. The devil stands ready to fart upon you, or sneeze you out his nose, at what moment God shall permit him. You belong to him; he has the souls of your physicians, and under his dominion.

Checkmite
11th September 2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by arcticpenguin

I would think the copyright protection on that piece would have expired long ago, so I don't think it's a matter of law. Giving credit where due is always good form though.

You're right...but the forum rules remain clear.

Lord Kenneth
11th September 2003, 08:08 PM
Johnathan Edwards' preaching has moved ME. Anyone else want to become a Puritan?

c4ts
11th September 2003, 09:23 PM
You're preaching to the choir.

Ian Rowland
17th October 2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
I guess I pulled an Ian Rowland.
I'm intrigued. If you don't mind explaining, may I ask what this phrase means or is supposed to mean in this context, and why my name is involved? Thank you.

UnrepentantSinner
17th October 2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Ian Rowland

I'm intrigued. If you don't mind explaining, may I ask what this phrase means or is supposed to mean in this context, and why my name is involved? Thank you.

Ian,

I'm terribly sorry and my comment was both unwarrented and uncalled for. It was based on my reaction to the copywrite issue in the thread about your visit to California and the posting of a photo showing one of your tricks. I felt you were a bit zealous in that thread an referenced you above to refer to my zealousness about copywrite.

I won't do so in the future. Sorry.

Ian Rowland
20th October 2003, 06:38 PM
Unrepentant Sinner... no apology needed, I assure you. I was just genuinely baffled by the reference, and wondered what you meant by it!

I was sorry that some people felt I was over-zealous about copyright issues. There were two distinct issues at stake, as I recall. One person had taken a photograph (which I took myself!) directly from my website and reposted it here. While this was hardly a major issue, I felt it was worth politely pointing out that this isn't generally the done thing. To link or refer is better than just taking and re-posting, and I think the people running this forum would also prefer it that way.

The second issue concerned a photo that someone had taken with their own camera during my lecture, and posted here. I had a few concerns about this, but they were not to do with copyright per se. One concern was that in my business, it's sometimes a good idea to try and keep details of one's material to oneself (or else good ideas can get copied very quickly!). The newspaper squares was an item which I had devised myself (based on someone else's pocket trick), which nobody else was doing, and which, at that time, I had not published within the magic world. So I was just hoping people would keep quiet about what happens during that particular item! That was all.

There was the secondary consideration that MAYBE one could say the Skeptics Society owned the copyright on the lecture, since they'd gone to the cost of organising it and they wanted to recoup some of that outlay by selling a video later on. But I accept that this is tenuous, and one photo posted on a forum isn't going to do much damage.

spejic
20th October 2003, 06:50 PM
Now you see the truth! The horrible price of your sins is revealed! One moment of meager pleasure, and the result is an eternity reading complaints about copyright laws! Oh, the agony of hell!

To any others reading this thread, please take heed of the warning and fear for your future!

Lord Kenneth
20th October 2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by spejic
Now you see the truth! The horrible price of your sins is revealed! One moment of meager pleasure, and the result is an eternity reading complaints about copyright laws! Oh, the agony of hell!

To any others reading this thread, please take heed of the warning and fear for your future!

Oh, it is too late, God already has decided your fate, for he knows the future!

Dorian Gray
21st October 2003, 06:06 AM
Joshua, allow me to demonstrate paraphrasing by paraphrasing one (or possibly all) of your posts.

You basically say:
I am an anal-retentive douchebag who completely missed the point.

So all you forum posters out there, let this example serve as an, um, example to you. No more posting another's work without attribution.