Judaism / Israel

[INRM]

I know this is going to sound politically incorrect. But I have a serious question.

Would you say that Israel has a way of commanding loyalty among Jews, both religiously and politically far outside it's own boundaries? Much like how the Vatican in the old days had a way of commanding religious loyalty among Catholics far beyond the boundaries of the Vatican?

INRM
Since this has a political element to it as well, I would not object if it was moved to the Politics forum. Let's hope the ADL doesn't sue my a**

[Cosmo]

I was born and raised Jewish (though I now consider myself atheist). I haven't ever really cared about Israel, nor do I view caring about Israel as a necessary consequence of being Jewish.

[e-sabbath]

Not especially, most certainly not in the way the Vatican does. It is certainly _good_ it exists, all things considered, and I'm proud of what my grandfather did to help when it was founded.

But no pronouncements from there are heeded by anyone. There is no worldwide sect that is centered there.

The jews have no pope. Who is there to wield influence religiously? There are _movements_, but not sects, per se. Just aligned religious philosophies of communities. There is no head Orthodox Jew.

... though I am now visualizing one. "With a _little_ schmeer, lox and bagels are okay. With bacon, not so much."

[cnorman18]

From what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of Jews--as in virtually all--believe that Israel has a right to exist (and find the very question a little bizarre, since it's applied to no other nation). They support Israel, in the sense that they wish its people well and hope that it prospers.

And they feel a certain connection to Israel, a kinship, a proprietary feeling; that's the old family farm, the place where they buried Grandpa and where cousin Lizzie got shot. You know, land of the Patriarchs and all that; more history than religion.

None of that means they support the Israeli government or even the religious establishment there. Pick up a Jewish magazine or newspaper, here or in Israel, and you'll see wall-to-wall criticism. That's quite a different question.

Saying that loving and supporting Israel means, for instance, that one must therefore support the current treatment of Palestinians is rather like saying that loving America means that one must support the war in Iraq. Some may say that, but that doesn't make it so--and there are plenty of people around that will tell you it's not.

[Spindrift]

There is no head Orthodox Jew.



There's no head Jew!? Then who the heck is running the world's banks? A committee of Jews? Even that would have a chairman. For such a world-wide conspiracy Jews don't seem very organized.

[Cleon]

Would you say that Israel has a way of commanding loyalty among Jews, both religiously and politically far outside it's own boundaries?

Speaking as a Jew who is not only not a Zionist, but actually opposed Zionism...No, no I wouldn't say that.

[Cleon]

The jews have no pope. Who is there to wield influence religiously? There are _movements_, but not sects, per se. Just aligned religious philosophies of communities. There is no head Orthodox Jew.

Gonna have to disagree with you here.

There are sects--mostly within the Hassidic community--and they do usually have a head "Rebbe" who essentially has the power of a Pope within that sect. The Lubavitchers even seem to think their last Rebbe, Menachem Schneerson, might be the messiah. (He died about 15 years ago, but they have yet to declare a new Rebbe.) The Satmar grand rebbe died a short while ago; now it seems the sect may be splitting, with Rebbe Teitelbaum's two sons fighting for leadership.

Because many of Israel's laws are based on religious laws (for example, there's no such thing as a "civil marriage" in Israel), Israel does have two Chief (Orthodox) Rabbis--one for Ashkenazim and one for Sephardim. (The Mizrahim, since Israel barely acknowledges their existence at all, get lumped in with the Sephardim.)

[Lucky]

I am a British Jew who is neither pro- nor anti-Zionist.

Anyone who thinks INRM is worth the time of day, or actually has any interest in discussing the subject, should be aware that {s}he has an agenda.

For example, {s}he started this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91759) to express {his|her} disapproval of those "secular jews who while not believing in God claim they are the chosen people". When asked to provide some evidence of the existence of these mythical beings (or even say who/where {s}he thinks might be), {s}he failed to respond.

And how can we regard with anything other than contempt someone who would pretend to be Jewish in order to trash (or 'criticise', if you prefer) Israel more effectively?

The ADL accuses anybody who disagrees with them as anti-semitic.

To them even criticizing Israel (even when they did engage in acts of wrong doing) is anti-semitic.

That's why I always pretend to be a secular Jew when talking about politics in the Middle-East
INRM


Joe Ellison,

Your comment about any criticism like this directed at Israel would be immediately referred to as anti-semetic is exactly why I pretend to be Jewish when discussing such matters.

In fact I had considered converting to Judaism and even learning Hebrew to pull off the guise more effectively.

Since I am of no religion, this does give me the right to pretend to be whatever religion I want for a given purpose right?


INRM

[Spindrift]

one for Ashkenazim and one for Sephardim. Mizrahim,
For the ignorant and too lazy to google gentile, what's the difference between them?

[Cleon]

For the ignorant and too lazy to google gentile, what's the difference between them?

With Judaism being extremely old, and Jews spread out as widely as they are, a number of cultures developed within Judaism over the years, with their own traditions, cultures, and even languages (Ladino, Yiddish, Judaeo-Arabic, etc).

Sephardim - The Sephardic culture developed within the Jewish community of the Iberian peninsula. Spain and Portugal, mostly, but the Dutch Jewish community also has a lot of Sephardic influence. After the Catholics expelled all the Jews (not to mention Muslims) from Spain in 1492, many settled in the Arab/Muslim world. (Jews had it relatively good when the Moors ran Spain, one of those historical anomalies I wish more people remembered.)

Ashkenazim - Jews from Central and Eastern Europe, the most numerous Jewish population prior to World War II (thanks, Adolf). Yiddish is an Ashkenazi language. The Hassidic ultra-Orthodox tradition is also pretty much exclusively Ashkenazi.

Mizrahim - Arab Jews; after the State of Israel was established, many went to live there. (Some voluntarily, though many were expelled from their native countries, and still others were encouraged to immigrate by various Zionist or Israeli incentive programs over the decades.)

That's the quick version, anyway. :)

[cnorman18]

Before someone asks, "What's the difference?" let me jump in and say the differences are mostly trivial to a non-Jew, matters of culture and ritual. Ashkenazim keep their Torah scrolls in cloth covers and wrap their tefillin straps clockwise; Sephardim keep their scrolls in ornate hard cases an wrap counterclockwise. Sephardim believe it's OK to eat beans and rice during Passover, and Ashkenazim don't. Stuff like that. Mizrahim generally follow Sephardi practice, though they have some variations of their own.

One difference that causes the occasional family fight in Israel, where there is a lot of intermarriage between the groups, is that Ashkenazim name their children after dead relatives and Sephardim after living ones. Each side regards the practice of the other as horribly unlucky.

[Spindrift]

That's the quick version, anyway. :)

Thanks!

[cnorman18]

Just a quick observation:

There are a number of pretty well-established markers for antisemitism: Holocaust denial, claims that Jews control the media, the banks, etc.

This sort of thing is another:

The ADL accuses anybody who disagrees with them as anti-semitic. To them even criticizing Israel (even when they did engage in acts of wrong doing) is anti-semitic.

That's a plain falsehood. Here's an aspect of it that might be of interest to skeptics, considering James Randi's challenge: someone or other--it may have been Alan Dershowitz, or Abe Foxman (president of the ADL)--once offered $100,000 to anyone who could document an instance of a Jewish leader or organization stating that criticism of Israel, per se, was antisemitic. No takers.

The charge is invariably heard or seen, as here, where no such statement has been made. it's also rather common to see it as a preemptive defense when someone attacks Israel; the claim is made that any potential defenders are about to accuse the critic of antisemitism, and even that any defense at all would amount to such an accusation.

An analogous claim would be that "Barack Obama's supporters always accuse anyone who ever disagrees with him of being a racist," and then classifying any disagreement offered as implying such an accusation.

[Cleon]

That's a plain falsehood. Here's an aspect of it that might be of interest to skeptics, considering James Randi's challenge: someone or other--it may have been Alan Dershowitz, or Abe Foxman (president of the ADL)--once offered $100,000 to anyone who could document an instance of a Jewish leader or organization stating that criticism of Israel, per se, was antisemitic. No takers.

"Per se."

Yeah, that's a pretty classic dodge; I've seen it on this forum, too. They say it's not anti-semitic to criticize Israel "per se", but anytime anyone actually does so, it's because they're anti-Semitic. :rolleyes:

[cnorman18]

"Per se."

Yeah, that's a pretty classic dodge; I've seen it on this forum, too. They say it's not anti-semitic to criticize Israel "per se", but anytime anyone actually does so, it's because they're anti-Semitic. :rolleyes:

Examples?

[Lucky]

Just a quick observation:

There are a number of pretty well-established markers for antisemitism: Holocaust denial, claims that Jews control the media, the banks, etc.

This sort of thing is another:


The ADL accuses anybody who disagrees with them as anti-semitic.


I'd agree, provided you are using the term 'marker' as I would: i.e. 'associated with increased probability of', rather than 'definitely diagnostic of'. Also, anti-Semitism isn't a condition that you do or don't have; there's a spectrum.


"Per se."

Yeah, that's a pretty classic dodge; I've seen it on this forum, too. They say it's not anti-semitic to criticize Israel "per se", but anytime anyone actually does so, it's because they're anti-Semitic. :rolleyes:

Interesting claim. Would you care to enlighten us with the identities of 'they'? With examples, please. Possibly careless wording, but you've actually claimed that anyone on this forum criticising Israel is invariably accused of anti-Semitism. I won't hold you to that – just a few representative examples, please.

FYI, cnorman18, Cleon is a Jew who refuses to believe in the existence of left-wing anti-Semitism. Because he, an American, hasn't encountered it personally, then it can't possibly exist elsewhere. In British academia, for example. I, as a British academic, am faced with it in my union and therefore my everyday working life, but no amount of evidence will convince Cleon, because he 'knows' it doesn't exist.

[cnorman18]

I'd agree, provided you are using the term 'marker' as I would: i.e. 'associated with increased probability of', rather than 'definitely diagnostic of'. Also, anti-Semitism isn't a condition that you do or don't have; there's a spectrum.

I'd agree with every word of that.

FYI, cnorman18, Cleon is a Jew who refuses to believe in the existence of left-wing anti-Semitism. Because he, an American, hasn't encountered it personally, then it can't possibly exist elsewhere. In British academia, for example. I, as a British academic, am faced with it in my union and therefore my everyday working life, but no amount of evidence will convince Cleon, because he 'knows' it doesn't exist.

LOL! Tell him to sign up on gather.com and start a thread related to Israel or Judaism and wait about fifteen minutes.

Or post something critical of Palestinian terrorism and wait five.

I take it Cleon has never heard of Noam Chomsky...

[Cleon]

I take it Cleon has never heard of Noam Chomsky...

Y'all just proved my point without me saying a thing.

[Lucky]

LOL! Tell him to sign up on gather.com and start a thread related to Israel or Judaism and wait about fifteen minutes.

Or post something critical of Palestinian terrorism and wait five.

I take it Cleon has never heard of Noam Chomsky...

It's my bedtime, but I just wanted to answer this.

I'd prefer to talk about the handful of British Jews who are pro-Palestine and anti-Israel, rather than Cleon, because I don't know him that well, and anyway the situation doesn't really map. I do think that in the US it's very much easier to ignore the consequences to your fellow Jews of constantly condemning Israeli 'aggression' and failing to make the same criticisms of openly genocidal Palestinian political groups.

Anyway, there would be no point in directing these people to any left-wing website that assumes anti-Israel sentiments as the norm; they would interpret everything as 'legitimate criticism'. Apparently, only declared Hitler-worshippers can actually be anti-Semitic.

About Chomsky: even if I thought he was an anti-Semitic Jew, which I don't (I refuse to use the nonsensical term 'self-hating Jew'), I would still defend his right to express his opinions and, as an academic, to pursue them as he chooses. Whilst I am not at all a liberal in most ways, I do believe that freedom of speech (which implies academic freedom) is the highest principle, the one on which all so-called 'democracy' depends, and the one that must be defended at all costs. In Chomsky's own words: If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

My views on academic freedom are stated here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3099228#post3099228).


Y'all just proved my point without me saying a thing.

1) Well, no.

2) Still waiting for examples.

[e-sabbath]

Gonna have to disagree with you here.

There are sects--mostly within the Hassidic community--and they do usually have a head "Rebbe" who essentially has the power of a Pope within that sect.

Well, yes, but they're hardly pope-_scale_, now are they? And even the Israeli ones are more 'well, someone has to do the job' than 'this is the most holy Jew of this sect, his words are as G-d's'. And the ones in Israel don't really have power out of Israel.

[INRM]

Lucky...

I just said that some Jews consider themselves to be the chosen people even though they don't believe in God. I never specified they were mystical beings. Just that they believe it and I honestly feel it to be racist.

INRM

[wollery]

Depends on what they were "chosen" for, doesn't it.

[cnorman18]

Lucky...

I just said that some Jews consider themselves to be the chosen people even though they don't believe in God. I never specified they were mystical beings. Just that they believe it and I honestly feel it to be racist.

INRM

You keep repeating this, and people keep asking you to post an example. A link, a reference, a book title, a magazine or newspaper, something.

Did you hear this from a "friend of a friend," from some guy on the subway, or what?

I've already said that I know of people who believe weirder things than that; but it does rather look like you made this up to provoke a discussion.

Give an example or knock it off.

[INRM]

Other than personal experiences. I can't really give you an example. I suppose I could research it.

But unless you seriously want me to carry a recorder on me whenever I talk to a Jewish person, I'm not sure I can get you a quote.

INRM

[firecoins]

There's no head Jew!? Then who the heck is running the world's banks? A committee of Jews? Even that would have a chairman. For such a world-wide conspiracy Jews don't seem very organized.
We aren't. We have been a little lazy. We have outsourced alot of the World Banks to India. They do it for cheaper and also hate Muslims extemists.

[firecoins]

Well, yes, but they're hardly pope-_scale_, now are they? And even the Israeli ones are more 'well, someone has to do the job' than 'this is the most holy Jew of this sect, his words are as G-d's'. And the ones in Israel don't really have power out of Israel.
My words are as god ad G-Ds but only inside my bedroom.

e-Sabbath shire for electronic Sabbath? Thats a contradiction.

[e-sabbath]

The e is from an old Magic the Gathering electronic league. The Sabbath is from a game called Interstate '76, where the 'clan' I was in used 1970s names. Mine was related to Black Sabbath, not The Sabbath.

I have kept it for... huh. Ten years, as my online presence.