The assassination of Anna Lindh

[reprise]

The Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58505-2003Sep11.html) has died after being stabbed in a department store.

It's so sad to see yet another nation have to face the possibility of keeping its political figures inaccessible to the general population.

The money markets are already reacting to the news of Lindh's death and it will be interesting to see whether the outcome of Sweden's referendum on whether to adopt the Euro (due to be held in a few days time) will be affected by this event.

[Cleopatra]

This is tragic. When I left home some hours ago, I heard at the radio that her condition was critical but doctors were optimistic.

Was the campaign in Sweden so fierce? I always thought that Swedish people had a very civilized approach to politics.

[CWL]

This is completely appalling. I'm in shock.

As to the referendum on the euro, Anna Lindh was one of the strongest and most visible propagators for a Yes. Like I said in the euro thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870086556&#post1870086556) there is a rather unpleasant undercurrent in the arguments of the No camp. Coincidence?

Anyway, I'm now even more depressed. This sucks. This is not my Sweden. :(

[Jon_in_london]

Do we know for a fact that she was killed for her stance on the Euro?

NO!!!

For craps sake people! for skeptics you lot sure as hell jump to conclusions in a hurry!!

[CFLarsen]

Relax, all.

There is no indication that this was anything else than a robbery. The man was grabbing for her purse.

[Cleopatra]

A political assassination is a traumatical experience for the citizens of a country. My sympathies CWL.

First it was Palme now is Lindh. I find it shocking. What people say? How they have reacted?

[reprise]

Even if Lindh's death is ultimately proven to have nothing to do with the Euro debate, it is still likely to be connected to her political status.

Living in a country where our politicians and other high profile figures are fairly accessible, I find this kind of an attack far more shocking than - for instance - a letterbomb sent to someone's office.

From what I've read elsewhere about this incident, there have been several incidents throughout Europe relatively recently where leftists have been responsible for acts of violence - something I find difficult to wrap my head around given that leftist politics here tends to reject force and violence as solutions to political or other problems.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Relax, all.

There is no indication that this was anything else than a robbery. The man was grabbing for her purse.

I wish that you are right Claus.

According to BBC

Lindh, who suffered wounds to the chest, stomach and arms in the attack, spent most of the night in surgery as doctors tried unsuccessfully to save her life.

she was severy stabbed.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3098834.stm

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by reprise
From what I've read elsewhere about this incident, there have been several incidents throughout Europe relatively recently where leftists have been responsible for acts of violence - something I find difficult to wrap my head around given that leftist politics here tends to reject force and violence as solutions to political or other problems.

I am surprised at this comment. Most of the European terrorist groups were connected with the Left.

[CFLarsen]

Sorry, I wasn't more clear. Yes, she was stabbed. Yes, the man grabbed for her purse. No, there are absolutely no indications whatsoever that this was politically motivated.

Let's wait until the facts are in.

I would like to know where this "recent leftish violence" comes in, though. It is true that quite a number of politically motivated European terrorist groups were, in the 70's, connected to the radical left. Those that are active today, are mostly fighting for independence (The Basks, the IRA), and not, as such, devoted to a specific political wing.

(Edited to add a word)

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Do we know for a fact that she was killed for her stance on the Euro?

NO!!!

For craps sake people! for skeptics you lot sure as hell jump to conclusions in a hurry!!

Not jumping to conclusions. Just saying it's a possibility. Again, she was the uncrowned Yes Queen and there are some pretty unpleasant characters who want too keep Sweden out of the Eurozone.

Then again, a great number of mental hospitals have been shut down in Stockholm during the last few years and there are some pretty wierd characters walking the streets these days.

I don't buy the purse snatching theory for one bit. What are the odds that a purse snatcher would just happen to stab the Swedish Foreign Minister to death?

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
*Snip*
I would like to know where this "recent leftish violence" comes in, though. It is true that quite a number of politically motivated European terrorist groups were, in the 70's, connected to the radical left. Those that are active today, are mostly fighting for independence (The Basks, the IRA), and not, as such, devoted to a specific political wing.

The militant anti EU movement in Sweden certainly is leftist and it certainly is violent. Remember the riots in Gothenburg (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/15/eu.protests02/index.html)?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL
I don't buy the purse snatching theory for one bit. What are the odds that a purse snatcher would just happen to stab the Swedish Foreign Minister to death?

What are the odds of a random purse snatcher attacking any one particular person? very small.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Sorry, I wasn't more clear. Yes, she was stabbed. Yes, the man grabbed for her purse. No, there are absolutely no indications whatsoever that this was politically motivated.

Let's wait until the facts are in.

Yes you are right. Although I find strange that somebody was stabbed to death by a common thief.

I would like to know where this "recent leftish violence" comes in, though. It is true that quite a number of politically motivated European terrorist groups were, in the 70's, connected to the radical left. Those that are active today, are mostly fighting for independence (The Basks, the IRA), and not, as such, devoted to a specific political wing.

(Edited to add a word) [/B]

I said Most of the European terrorist groups were connected with the Left.

Remember: Red Brigades, Beden Meinhof, 17N , ELA, Action Directe.

With such a background how can somebody be surprised when European Leftist groups resort to violence ?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL
The militant anti EU movement in Sweden certainly is leftist and it certainly is violent. Remember the riots in Gothenburg (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/15/eu.protests02/index.html)?

"Many of the rioters came from other countries with the intention of disrupting the summit," he said.

Thank you.

Re. the "chances"....it happens, OK? Sure, it looks dodgy, but right now, we don't know anything about a political motive.

I have a feeling somebody will eat humble pie in a day or so.

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Thank you.

Aw, come on, CF. I live in this country. I have followed the debate closely. I have debated myself with people on the far left flank. The euro campaign has shown that there are some pretty extreme people on that flank in Sweden. KPML:r (http://www.kpmlr.o.se/) and the Attac (http://www.attac.se/) movement are but two examples.

Anyway, are you seriously saying that Mr. Bodström's statement (=one man's statement made shortly after the Gothenburg riots) disproves that many of the rioters were in fact Swedes - and that many of them in fact came from organized extreme leftist groups?

Re. the "chances"....it happens, OK? Sure, it looks dodgy, but right now, we don't know anything about a political motive.

I have a feeling somebody will eat humble pie in a day or so.

Why? Because I suggested that the assassination of the Swedish Foreign Minister four days before a referendum which has seen one of the fiercest campaigns in Swedish modern political history might be politically motivated?

There will be no such pie on my menu, no matter what the motive behind the murder turns out to be.

[Cleopatra]

CWL lives in the country and he is quite upset right now :)

Let's keep this in mind when we are addressing to him :)

[CWL]

Thanks Cleo.

I really am freaked out. It happened in my country, in my city. I was in the very same department store this week.

Anyway, I agree with CF that any theories on Anna Lindh's murder are mere speculations at this point in time. I however disagree insofar as the purse snatching theory being more likely than that the murder may have been politically motivated, or the act of some mainiac obsessed with Anna Lindh (given the public figure that she was). On the contrary, the latter theories strike me as being more likely than the first.

[CFLarsen]

CWL,

I think we are resembling conspiracy kooks if we even begin entertaining the idea that this is politically motivated.

Until we know anything about the murderer, we cannot say anything such.

Let's see what happens. That's all I am saying. Cool heads will always prevail.

[CWL]

CF. I'm a skeptic, you're a skeptic. We're all skeptics. Fine. I understand what you are saying and I do not disagree. I don't think I have have given you any reason to assume that I do.

Even as a skeptic however, I don't think it's too far fetched to suggest that the murder might be politically motivated - i.e. that I would not be surprised if that was a case. I don't think that makes me a conspiracy kook.

Why were you so fast to jump to the conclusion that it was a mere case of purse snatching?

Edited for typos

[CFLarsen]

CWL,

I try very hard to work with what facts we have. I have no other reason - for now - to believe this was anything else but a crazy robber with a knife. It happens, you know.

We have testimonials that the guy tried to snatch her purse. You want to disregard those? Those are also the same persons who saw her being stabbed.

Now, you are not going to discard one part of the testimony and not the other?

Cool heads. Especially when the s**t hits the fan.

[CWL]

So far there have been no conclusive testimonials which allow us to draw such conclusions.

We need to keep an open mind as to political motives - as of course we must for more "mundane" motives. Rearding the political angle, have a look at this article (it's in Swedish, sorry all who do not speak a Scandinavian language): http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=180514&previousRenderType=6

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL
So far there have been no conclusive testimonials which allow us to draw such conclusions.
[/URL]

Then why are you drawing conclusions?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Then why are you drawing conclusions?

Conclusions? Quote me.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL
As to the referendum on the euro, Anna Lindh was one of the strongest and most visible propagators for a Yes. Like I said in the euro thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870086556&#post1870086556) there is a rather unpleasant undercurrent in the arguments of the No camp. Coincidence?


OK. Just a very strong implication.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


OK. Just a very strong implication.

That I will grant you.

I'm pretty darn upset right now and I will also grant you that I am perhaps looking for an answer less mundane than a mere purse snatching. I stand by my point though. We cannot assume that it is as simple as that at this point in time.

[karl]

Since the Swedish police is on the case, we may have to wait a looooooooong time for this to be resolved, if ever. I don't have that kind of patience, so I'll state right now that even if there are eyewitness reports about the attacker reaching for her purse, the circumstances make it seem more likely, to me, that the murder was politically motivated. No conspiracy. Just a lone extremist. Similar to what happened to Pim Fortuyn in Holland last year.

[TomStockholm]

If this is politically motivated in any kind of an organised way, as opposed to one madman with a political agenda, then it seems to me that it would be the "yes" side that is more likely to win by it.

As the "no" side has been consistently leading in the polls, a political martyr for the "yes" side would be pretty handy. Especially someone like Lindh who was quite a popular figure in Sweden, regardless of politics. I think now that there is a chance that people might now vote yes out of sympathy. This coupled with the crocodile tears of our prime minister. I certainly don't think the "no" side has much to win by this.

Having said that, I don't personally believe in conspiracy theories, the chances are that it is one idiot with an agenda, someone who noticed her in the shop and took a chance, who is responsible.

And as Karl says, don't hold your breath when the Swedish police force is on the case. On past history if anyone can screw this up, they can.

[Skeptic]

C'mon, people! So far, there isn't the slightest indication this was anything else than a robbery. The guy was snatching her purse and she resisted, so he stabbed her.

No group claimed responsiblity; the attacker--unlike political assassins--is trying to flee, not publicize why he did it; it is probaly just a crime.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL

We cannot assume that it is as simple as that at this point in time.

Erm... look whats simpler, a plain old aggravated robbery or a political murder based on her stance on the Euro? I would say the former.

You just seem incapable of accepting that every now and again politicians will get mugged just like normal people if they walk around, just like normal people.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL
Rearding the political angle, have a look at this article (it's in Swedish, sorry all who do not speak a Scandinavian language): http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=180514&previousRenderType=6
Yeah, I saw that too. A few neonazis cheering. So? Does that make them guilty?

They are morons, that's all. What'd you expect from people who shave their heads as a political statement? :D

Skinheads have more brains than hair.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Skeptic
C'mon, people! So far, there isn't the slightest indication this was anything else than a robbery. The guy was snatching her purse and she resisted, so he stabbed her.

A simple robbery? In broad daylight in the middle of one of Stockholm's biggest and most crowded department stores?

Robberies like that don't occur very often in Stockholm, I can assure you of that.

No group claimed responsiblity; the attacker--unlike political assassins--is trying to flee, not publicize why he did it; it is probaly just a crime.
So can't a lone madman have political motives?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Erm... look whats simpler, a plain old aggravated robbery or a political murder based on her stance on the Euro? I would say the former.
Jon, seriously. You don't understand the kind of emotions this campaign has set in motion.

You just seem incapable of accepting that every now and again politicians will get mugged just like normal people if they walk around, just like normal people.
Again, the circumstances surrounding the mugging (assuming that it was indeed a mugging) were rather extraordinary. Why at NK? Where there are dozens of security guards. Why Anna Lindh of all people? Why not rob someone on the street instead?

[CWL]

Originally posted by TomStockholm
[B]If this is politically motivated in any kind of an organised way, as opposed to one madman with a political agenda, then it seems to me that it would be the "yes" side that is more likely to win by it.

As the "no" side has been consistently leading in the polls, a political martyr for the "yes" side would be pretty handy. Especially someone like Lindh who was quite a popular figure in Sweden, regardless of politics. I think now that there is a chance that people might now vote yes out of sympathy. This coupled with the crocodile tears of our prime minister. I certainly don't think the "no" side has much to win by this.

Now there's a conspiracy theory for you (it's OK Karl, your reservation is duly noted).

Seriously, there are a lot more wackos in the No camp than in the Yes camp. I don't see too many Neo-Nazis and Stalinists shouting for a Yes on Sunday...

Having said that, I don't personally believe in conspiracy theories, the chances are that it is one idiot with an agenda, someone who noticed her in the shop and took a chance, who is responsible.

I agree completely. Please note that I have never claimed that this was organized.

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Yeah, I saw that too. A few neonazis cheering. So? Does that make them guilty?
Again, I never said that. All I am saying is that the possibility shouldn't be ruled out.

Come on CF, you're not talking to Jedi Knight here.

They are morons, that's all. What'd you expect from people who shave their heads as a political statement? :D

Skinheads have more brains than hair.

I think you mean "more hair than brains". In such case we are in complete and utter agreement.

[TomStockholm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CWL
[B]

Now there's a conspiracy theory for you (it's OK Karl, your reservation is duly noted).

Seriously, there are a lot more wackos in the No camp than in the Yes camp. I don't see too many Neo-Nazis and Stalinists shouting for a Yes on Sunday...

A quick point, my name is Tom. Someone else writing earlier was called Karl.
Whatever happens, be absolutely sure that there will be enough conspiracy theories to last us a lifetime sprouting up in the coming days. And this will be the case EVEN IF the Swedish cops do the impossible and find the guy who did it and extract a confession.

CWL, as a matter of interest, how do you think the assasination is going to affect the referendum on Sunday?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL
I think you mean "more hair than brains". In such case we are in complete and utter agreement.
Duh! Yes, of course!

[TomStockholm]

I hope someone can read my reply... I screwed up with the quote function...

[LW]

Originally posted by CWL

Again, the circumstances surrounding the mugging (assuming that it was indeed a mugging) were rather extraordinary. Why at NK? Where there are dozens of security guards. Why Anna Lindh of all people? Why not rob someone on the street instead?


If the murder had happened on street in the evening I wouldn't have any trouble in classifying it as a common robbery.

But inside a department store. In daylight.

That kind of thing simply doesn't happen.

[CWL]

Originally posted by LW


If the murder had happened on street in the evening I wouldn't have any trouble in classifying it as a common robbery.

But inside a department store. In daylight.

That kind of thing simply doesn't happen.

THANK YOU. My point exactly.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LW
If the murder had happened on street in the evening I wouldn't have any trouble in classifying it as a common robbery.

But inside a department store. In daylight.

That kind of thing simply doesn't happen.
Crime doesn't happen in daylight in Sweden? I'll be....:confused:

[CWL]

Originally posted by TomStockholm
A quick point, my name is Tom. Someone else writing earlier was called Karl.

My appologies, Tom.

Sloppy reading. Sloppy, sloppy. Bad CWL.

Whatever happens, be absolutely sure that there will be enough conspiracy theories to last us a lifetime sprouting up in the coming days. And this will be the case EVEN IF the Swedish cops do the impossible and find the guy who did it and extract a confession.

Agreed. Man, just when the whole Palme thing had finally settled down. Now we will be subjected to all those private detectives (Sw. "privatspanare") again. :rolleyes:

CWL, as a matter of interest, how do you think the assasination is going to affect the referendum on Sunday?

If it does affect the referendum, I agree with you that it is likely that there will be a surge to the Yes side. I think in particular that undecided social democratic voters may tend to vote Yes now, out of sympathy.

[Brown]

I will worry about motive later. Right now I am just sad. I extend my sympathy to the people of Sweden, with my hope that the perpetrator is caught and punished.

I am somewhat surprised by Anna Lindh's death, because the report I read yesterday suggested that her wounds were not life-threatening.

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Crime doesn't happen in daylight in Sweden? I'll be....:confused:

Robberies happen everyday on the streets of Stockholm. Not that violent though and certainly not inside of a crowded place like NK.

A lot of violent daylight robberies happen at Magasin du Nord, then?

[whitefork]

CWL, I was pretty shaken up when I heard this, too. But what actually "settled down" with the Palme murder? One guy tried and acquitted, was it, but no real resolution from what I've heard.

My sympathies to all.

(Ignore Claus - he's really pushing it too far this time)

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by Brown

I am somewhat surprised by Anna Lindh's death, because the report I read yesterday suggested that her wounds were not life-threatening.


And here, almost certainly, we will have the starting point of many a conspiracy theory...

[CWL]

Originally posted by Kullervo
CWL, I was pretty shaken up when I heard this, too. But what actually "settled down" with the Palme murder? One guy tried and acquitted, was it, but no real resolution from what I've heard.
I should have said "settled down in the media". There used to be a number of strange theories being thrown around. I think most Swedes agree that it all became rather tiresome. "Let poor Mr. Palme rest in peace", if you will.

[mbp]

Originally posted by CWL

A lot of violent daylight robberies happen at Magasin du Nord, then?
Not violent, perhaps, but their prices aren't far from being robbery.
:)

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by Kullervo
CWL, I was pretty shaken up when I heard this, too. But what actually "settled down" with the Palme murder? One guy tried and acquitted, was it, but no real resolution from what I've heard.



The settling down we are talking about is just the passage of time. After all it is now 17 years since Palme was killed. Less and less frequently, thankfully, do we see the "private detectives" as CWL calls them infesting our airwaves.
Sure, sometimes the odd tip turns up which ignites the flames for a short while, a new lake to dredge for the murder weapon for example, or the allegation that the South African apartheid government was involved a few years ago, but all in all it has certainly settled down.
It would be hard for it not to have settled down after the highs of the murder, a screwed up investigation, the Ebbe Carlsson affair, the farsical trial of the alcoholic, Christer Pettersson among much else. Basically what has happened up to now is unsurpassable. Let us just hope that they do a better job of the investigation this time and that the perpertrator is caught.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL
Robberies happen everyday on the streets of Stockholm. Not that violent though and certainly not inside of a crowded place like NK.

A lot of violent daylight robberies happen at Magasin du Nord, then?
I didn't say "a lot". I was merely questioning the finality of "That kind of thing simply doesn't happen."

I understand that you and other Swedes are upset about this - the Danish TV has nothing else on - but we need to keep cool heads here.

[LW]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

I didn't say "a lot". I was merely questioning the finality of "That kind of thing simply doesn't happen."

Do you have any counterexample? Anyone robbed and murdered inside a crowded department store, anyone at all?

We can't know the motive of the attacker until he gets caught but the circumstances of the murder make a purposeful attack on Lindh far more probable than a random robbery. After all, there are precedents for politically motivated murders .

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I didn't say "a lot". I was merely questioning the finality of "That kind of thing simply doesn't happen."

You didn't say "a lot", but you certainly implied it. For all we know, her death may have been caused by a freak meteorite which hit her just before the stabbing took place - or would you say that "that kind of thing simply doesn't happen"? Is it likely though? That is the simple question.

Thus, let me rephrase. When was the last time someone stabbed a Foreign Minister in Magasin du Nord in broad daylight in the attempt of snatching said Minister's purse?

I understand that you and other Swedes are upset about this - the Danish TV has nothing else on - but we need to keep cool heads here.
If you by "keeping cool" mean "thinking rationally", I agree. In such case, I submit that it is rational and reasonable to take into account the extraordinary circumstances surrounding the crime in question. That doesn't mean that the murder has to be politically motivated - but it sure as heck doesn't make it less likely.

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

I didn't say "a lot". I was merely questioning the finality of "That kind of thing simply doesn't happen."



Sure, there is a slight possibility that this might have happened. That someone went into NK in the middle of a busy afternoon and stabbed a woman violently to death for her purse in front of loads of bystanders. And that the woman just happened to be one of the leading voices in the yes campaign in the forthcoming referendum on the EU which was going to be held just four days later. Sure it is possible.

It is also possible that John Edward is really talking to dead people.

[CFLarsen]

CWL,

I did not imply it. Is it "likely"? So far, that's what did happen.

What else have you got? Speculation. I stick to what we know.

TomStockholm,

What reasons do you have to think that this was premeditated?

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
CWL,

I did not imply it. Is it "likely"? So far, that's what did happen.
Yes you did. And you are so wrong on this. So far, that is not "what did happen". So far, we do not know what happened.
What else have you got? Speculation. I stick to what we know.
I cannot see that your purse snatching theory is less speculative or more likely than any other theory offered thus far.

[hammegk]

Why haven't ya'all banned sharp instruments? Think of the children.

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


TomStockholm,

What reasons do you have to think that this was premeditated?

Read what I wrote last time and add what CWL wrote about your purse snatching theory.

That is your answer. It is not conclusive I know. But if I was a betting man I would feel pretty sure that there is something political behind it. Even if it is the political opinions of a nutter who siezed his opportunity.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL

Yes you did. And you are so wrong on this. So far, that is not "what did happen". So far, we do not know what happened.

I cannot see that your purse snatching theory is less speculative or more likely than any other theory offered thus far.

First, do not tell me what I did and not did.

Second, we know that she was stabbed. We know that a witness said he was grabbing her purse. It could be during the scuffle, sure.

What do you have that even remotely indicates that this is political? Don't just tell me I am wrong, show me I am wrong.

[renata]

Is there some Scandinavian rivalry I am not aware of? Witness reports are unreliable, Claus, you should know that. The grabbing of the purse means nothing...yet. Today CNN reported some witnesses that said the man who stabbed her chased her up an escalater, which would lead credence to theory that his was to harm her, not mere mugging. His motive- who knows. Could be a thief, not wanting to leave a witness. A random maniac, a political nut, an assassin. The circumstances are curious: broad daylight, severity of attack, proximity of referendum. It is simply too early to know, and isn't it time for all you skeptics to invoke the 72 hour news rule? I am sure there will be an investigation, and we will learn more. I hope this man is caught and this mystery is solved.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/09/11/sweden.stabbing/index.html

A shopper had gone to the help of Lindh after seeing her being chased by a man up the escalator from the basement. The minister is reported to have said: "God, he has stabbed me in the stomach!"

In the meanwhile, my condolences to CWL and other citizens of Sweden on this shocking event. I hope the facts behind it come to light soon, and I hope her death will not cause a rift in the country.

[Larspeart]

Proof that even in gunless societies governed by socialism have violence, and even deadly violence.

I was shocked to hear of her stabbing and untimely death. As far as the Euro stance, I highly doubt this had anything to do with that, and was nothing more then a robbery.

I am, however, HIGHLY against the EU and the Euro in general. To me, both are proof that European countries as a whole can't function on their own. It take a couple dozen of them to handle what REAL countries do by themselves. Like 'handle ones economy' or 'defend oneself'.

Pathetic.

[TomStockholm]

Neither CWL are implying some form of conspiracy theory.

I at least am saying that whoever the nutter was who did this almost certainly knew who she was and did what he did to her because of who she was. This is a fair bet. I reiterate, not certain but a pretty good bet. Something that the Swedish police also believe according to a quote in todays Aftonbladet. (Swedish paper)

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,359570,00.html

On this page, the policeman in charge of investigations, Leif Jennekvist, says among other things.

"Det finns inget som tyder på att det handlar om en urartad väskryckning."

Roughly translated this says that there is nothing that points to this being about a purse grabbing gone wrong.

Some questions for Claus

1) Have you been in Sweden during the last couple of months?

2) Do you have any idea of the number of pictures of Anna Lindh that have been visible in the streets of Sweden during this time?

3) With the kind of visibility that Lindh was subjected to during this period, coupled with the fact that she is the Swedish foreign minister and one of Swedens most well known politicians and faces in general, do you think there is a reasonable chance that the murderer recognised his victim before the deed?

4) Does her obvious fame and recent exposeur not at least hint to the fact that such an audacious and unusual crime, i.e a stabbing in broad daylight in a busy department sore, stands a reasonable chance of being related to the identity of the victim?

4) Having read what Renata has written about the reliability of witness testimony, what makes you so sure that the witness who claimed to see the murderer making a grab for Lindhs purse is plausible?

5) Why would the police themselves almost rule out your theory of a robbery if it were in anyway plausible or likely?


Please either:




address the questions, providing either a retraction or evidence of your claims, or

state that you refuse to answer. ;-)

I always wanted to do that...

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by TomStockholm
Neither CWL are implying some form of conspiracy theory.

I at least am saying that whoever the nutter was who did this almost certainly knew who she was and did what he did to her because of who she was. This is a fair bet. I reiterate, not certain but a pretty good bet. Something that the Swedish police also believe according to a quote in todays Aftonbladet. (Swedish paper)

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,359570,00.html

On this page, the policeman in charge of investigations, Leif Jennekvist, says among other things.

"Det finns inget som tyder på att det handlar om en urartad väskryckning."

Roughly translated this says that there is nothing that points to this being about a purse grabbing gone wrong.

Fine. Now, it becomes clearer. Please remember that you did not have this information before. Arguing post hoc is not being skeptical.

He also says that there is nothing that points to this being planned. So, for now, it wasn't premeditated. If this is political, then it is very much spur-of-the-moment. So....you think a guy walks around with a knife, spots Lundh and decides to kill her - because it is her?

Originally posted by TomStockholm
1) Have you been in Sweden during the last couple of months?

Buddy, with the low pricing on houses over there, I have my eye keenly on Malmø!

Originally posted by TomStockholm
2) Do you have any idea of the number of pictures of Anna Lindh that have been visible in the streets of Sweden during this time?

Nope. But I can imagine it is quite a lot. She looked a heck of a lot better than Persson.

Originally posted by TomStockholm
3) With the kind of visibility that Lindh was subjected to during this period, coupled with the fact that she is the Swedish foreign minister and one of Swedens most well known politicians and faces in general, do you think there is a reasonable chance that the murderer recognised his victim before the deed?

Could be. We don't know yet. I cannot judge whether it is "reasonable". How do you define that?

Originally posted by TomStockholm
4) Does her obvious fame and recent exposeur not at least hint to the fact that such an audacious and unusual crime, i.e a stabbing in broad daylight in a busy department sore, stands a reasonable chance of being related to the identity of the victim?

Could be. We don't know yet.

Originally posted by TomStockholm
4) Having read what Renata has written about the reliability of witness testimony, what makes you so sure that the witness who claimed to see the murderer making a grab for Lindhs purse is plausible?

I am not saying that the witness is plausible, I merely point to what we have for now.

Originally posted by TomStockholm
5) Why would the police themselves almost rule out your theory of a robbery if it were in anyway plausible or likely?

We got one statement. Consider the pressure the police is under now. I just hope they don't f*ck up this investigation. You know what I mean.

Originally posted by TomStockholm
I always wanted to do that...

I'm sure. :)

[Cleopatra]

This is for CWL mostly and our Swedish friends.

I read the articles of Open Democracy with great interest because they are very balanced and well written and they talk about things I do not wish to hear :)

Anna Lindh: the price of openness( Open Democracy.com (http://www.opendemocracy.net/themes/article-10-1484.jsp)

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
First, do not tell me what I did and not did.
Fine. Now, perhaps you would you care to consider that rule yourself for a second?

Second, we know that she was stabbed. We know that a witness said he was grabbing her purse. It could be during the scuffle, sure.
And from this you dismiss the possibility that there may have been a political motive? That's mighty skeptical of you.

What do you have that even remotely indicates that this is political? Don't just tell me I am wrong, show me I am wrong.
1) Annna Lindh was an extremely well known public figure. The Foreign Minister of Sweden and one of the most outspoken propagators of the euro;
2) There are only a few days left to an important referendum which has divided the country ideologically in two;
3) There are extremist groups on the far left and right who have shown on numerous occasions that they are capable of serious violence in Sweden. Such groups strongly oppose the euro and looked upon Anna Lindh as a "traitor".

The above are circumstances that at least remotely indicate that the murder could be political. I say could be - not that it is.

Besides, are you denying that public figures often run the risk of being attacked? Why should any public figure bother with boduguards then? Perhaps they should try your particular brand of skeptisism instead?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by CWL
And from this you dismiss the possibility that there may have been a political motive? That's mighty skeptical of you.

No, no. I don't dismiss it. I merely point out that there is no reason why we should think this is politically motivated. No evidence whatsoever.

Originally posted by CWL
1) Annna Lindh was an extremely well known public figure. The Foreign Minister of Sweden and one of the most outspoken propagators of the euro;

Yup.

Originally posted by CWL
2) There are only a few days left to an important referendum which has divided the country ideologically in two;

Yup.

Originally posted by CWL
3) There are extremist groups on the far left and right who have shown on numerous occasions that they are capable of serious violence in Sweden. Such groups strongly oppose the euro and looked upon Anna Lindh as a "traitor".

Yup.

Originally posted by CWL
The above are circumstances that at least remotely indicate that the murder could be political. I say could be - not that it is.

Yup. Problem is, there is no indication of this being the case here.

Originally posted by CWL
Besides, are you denying that public figures often run the risk of being attacked? Why should any public figure bother with boduguards then? Perhaps they should try your particular brand of skeptisism instead?

Public figures do run the risk of being "attacked". That is the price to pay, if we want to live in a truly free society. What do you want, that your elected representatives are behind barbed wire? That is no way to have a democracy. I've lived in the US, and I can tell you that there is a huge difference between politicians there and "here" (in Scandinavia).

Don't get me started.

[DanishDynamite]

Firstly, let me say "We are are all Swedes today".

My condolences and I hope the pr*ck responsible is caught. Soon.

Claus:No, no. I don't dismiss it. I merely point out that there is no reason why we should think this is politically motivated. No evidence whatsoever. As has been explained to you many times, it is the very unusual circumstances of the crime which makes the "political" angle plausible.

The fact that the police have subsequently dismissed "purse snatching" as a plausible motive, just strengthens this.
Don't get me started. Indeed.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Firstly, let me say "We are are all Swedes today".

Yeah. We are.

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Claus: As has been explained to you many times, it is the very unusual circumstances of the crime which makes the "political" angle plausible.

It may be plausible, but it is not substantiated by any facts. That's my whole point.

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
The fact that the police have subsequently dismissed "purse snatching" as a plausible motive, just strengthens this.

Key word is "subsequently". Speculation can be fun, but we have to deal with facts. Always and only.

[DanishDynamite]

CFLarsen:It may be plausible, but it is not substantiated by any facts. That's my whole point.The very unusual circumstances are themselves a fact.
Key word is "subsequently". Speculation can be fun, but we have to deal with facts. Always and only. Indeed, we should deal with facts. Given the fact of the very unusual circumstances, your contention that it was just a purse-snatching gone wrong, was automatically less likely. The subsequent fact that the police concurred was expected.

When evaluating possible motives and scenarios, it is prudent to take all facts into account.

[Mike B.]

any updates in the local media?
:confused:

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
When evaluating possible motives and scenarios, it is prudent to take all facts into account.

If that's what I was doing, then you would be right. However, I look at what we got.

We can speculate until we are blue in the face, but without any facts at all, it is a waste of time. Let's wait until the facts are in.

[CWL]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
CFLarsen:The very unusual circumstances are themselves a fact.

Indeed. Circumstantial evidence in fact.

CFL, there is no one here who has actually claimed that there is any direct evidence that there were political motives behind the assassination.

Subtle, but rather important difference, my skeptical friend. Frankly, I am a bit surprised that you're arguing - when there really is no disagreement.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Mike B.
any updates in the local media?
:confused:

I heard early in the morning a report from Sweden ( many Greek journalists left for Sweden to cover the incident) that the Police has the knife and after examining the figer prints they know the identity of the perpetrator.

I also heard about the silent demonstation that will take place in Stockholm today.

CWL , TS , karl, any news?

I want to express my sympathies again to our Swedish friends. The whole story is really sad :(

[reprise]

Has something appeared in the Swedish media suggesting that the attacking was aware of whom he was attacking? This post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3972239#post3972239) over at the SDMB by someone living in Sweden seems to suggest so, and earlier reports of the attacker having chased Lindh up an elevator, stabbing her when she tripped and fell also suggest that she was the intended victim of his attack rather than the random victim of a robbery gone wrong.

Let's remember that you don't need a conspiracy in order for whackjobs to attempt to assassinate public figures - history is full of such attempts, quite a number of which succeeded.

[Patricio Elicer]

Much has been discussed on this thread about the Anna Lindh assassination. On one side, there's the political motivation possibility, and on the other, the robbery motivation.

However, on watching the news, I noticed she was a rather young and attractive woman, and the wild speculation that it could've been a passion crime crossed my mind.

Am I going too far?, are passion crimes common in Sweden?

May the murderer "modus operandi", that is, infuriating stabbing, be an indication of it?

Just wondering

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Patricio Elicer
However, on watching the news, I noticed she was a rather young and attractive woman, and the wild speculation that it could've been a passion crime crossed my mind.

Am I going too far?, are passion crimes common in Sweden?

May the murderer "modus operandi", that is, infuriating stabbing, be an indication of it?

Just wondering

:dl:

Sorry, this is too funny. OK, Patricio, you are from the hot'n'passionate South, so of course you think of this solution.

But a Swede, being involved in a crime of passion? What "passion"? Swedes don't have "passion"....

(OK, I could let you in on a few memories of mine which disproves that, but that wouldn't help my argument one bit! :D)

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
But a Swede, being involved in a crime of passion? What "passion"? Swedes don't have "passion".... OK, thanks for the insight :D. Crimes of passion are not uncommon on these latitudes.

I'm glad that at least I made you laugh :)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CFLarsen



What "passion"? Swedes don't have "passion"....


You must be joking Claus!! In the Mediterranean we consider them the hottest and the most polite people of Nothern Europe :)

And don't tell me that we don't know about passion :)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You must be joking Claus!! In the Mediterranean we consider them the hottest and the most polite people of Nothern Europe :)

Yeah, well...it has been thousands of years since the Greeks were the brains of the world... :)

Originally posted by Cleopatra
And don't tell me that we don't know about passion :)

How about smarts? :)

[Cleopatra]

If you use your brains to appreciate passion one shouldn't wonder why Danish people have the reputation of being "the cold cucumbers of Europe" ;)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
If you use your brains to appreciate passion one shouldn' wonder why Danish people have the reputation of being "the cold cucumbers of Europe" ;)

We're not cold..... :D

[Cleopatra]

LOL LOL

I hope you don't take these comments as disrespect to the murdered minister but as an attempt from our part to cheer you up a bit :)

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


We're not cold..... :D

No, you're smoking. Literally. :D

Seriously though, I agree with CFL on this one. I think it is rather safe to forget about the crime of passion theory.

The Stockholm police have announced that they assume that the perpetrator had the clear motive of taking Anna Lindh's life and that they are looking for known violent criminals.

[Ove]

Latest news here (and i would like to add my condolences too). It seems that the police is now searching for a specific person, apparently someone known for previous knife attacs. The most probable thesis now seems to indicate a deranged person that for reasons unknown went after Anna.:rs:

[CWL]

True, they did suspect this one guy (who apparently had Nazi sympthies, BTW).He was brought in for questioning but has now been released. It appears the police is no longer interested in him.

You can find articles (in Swedish) here (http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_6147238.asp) and here (http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,359764,00.html)

[Ove]

Ohh. I had my story from the Radio (DR), 10:00 news but apparently they were not up to date.

I would still maintain that a lunatic that had build up a hatred to Anna is the most likely explanation. The sheer number of stabs i would say rules out the random burglar theory.

[plindboe]

I was very saddened by this, when I found out she had died. My condolences to her family and to the people of Sweden.

It's a blow to our democracies where our politicians aren't sorrounded by a horde of body guards, and we can meet them on the streets and discuss politics with them. I don't hope that will change, and don't think it will either.

At least a camera caught this guy, and the police is comparing his picture with the known criminals albums, last I heard. I understand that many swedes do not trust their police, but I'm sure they will get this guy, maybe even within a few days. They have far more evidence this time, than they had after the Palme murder, and I think there's a very good chance that this is a person already known by the police for criminal history.

About the discussion above, I certainly don't think it's a robbery. If I had to guess I would say it was a right winged nut with serious mental problems. I don't think it had anything to do with the Euro, despite the fierce debate there have been. But as was said maybe we should wait for the facts first. Sorry. ;)

Peter

[LW]

I thought to put up an update. Today, the Swedish police announced that they have issued a warrant for a suspected assasin so apparently he has been identified.

[whitefork]

Did they actually use the Swedish word for "assassin" (assuming that it's different than "murderer")? Meaning, is the implication that it was a murder for political reasons, or just a killing with no political component.

[LW]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Did they actually use the Swedish word for "assassin" (assuming that it's different than "murderer")?

Actually, I don't know the original wording. I read a Finnish news site and there they used the term puukottaja, meaning literally "the stabber".

[CWL]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Did they actually use the Swedish word for "assassin" (assuming that it's different than "murderer")? Meaning, is the implication that it was a murder for political reasons, or just a killing with no political component.

Swedish media uses the word "misstänkt mördare". MISSTÄNKT meaning "suspected" and "MÖRDARE" meaning "murderer". There is really no other word which would be equivalent to "assassin" (i.e. embracing the implication of political motives).

BTW, the Internet editions of the major Swedish newspapers (e.g. Svenska Dagbladet (http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_6188396.asp)) now report that the main suspect has been arrested this evening.

[CFLarsen]

News flash: They just arrested the suspect. No trace of political overtones of any kind.

[DanishDynamite]

Just read it on a news site. He was apparently arrested after he was recognized while attending a local soccer match! If he indeed is the perpetrator, he must be either very dumb or have nerves of steel. He was the most sought after person in Sweden, and instead of lying low, he decides to go watch a game! Unbelievable.

[Jessica Blue]

According to this article, Anna Lindhs murder may be the result of deranged government politics:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/europe/story/0,11363,1041913,00.html

In the 1990s the then Conservative government closed down many of Sweden's mental homes , privatising the sector and turning many disturbed people out onto the street, adding that the country had seen a wave of appalling crimes committed by the mentally ill...

We never used to have this but there are more homeless people and mentally disturbed people on the streets than ever before. At the beginning of the nineteenth century we had space for 2,000 [mentally ill patients]. Now we have room for just 600 and many have been released onto the streets.

Guardian

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
News flash: They just arrested the suspect. No trace of political overtones of any kind.

Sorry, CFL. Not true. From the Net edition of today's Svenska Dagbladet:

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/ettan/did_6188867.asp

The article inter alia says: "Den 35-åring som polisen gripit har kontakter med nynazister" - "The 35 year old who has been arrested by the police has connections with neo-nazis ".

Today's paper issue of SvD features more elaborate writings on the 35 year old's nazi connections.

That is at the very least a trace.

[Ove]

Well CWL and DD know by now off course but to the rest of you: It seems that the murder was a psycopath that never should have been allowed to roam around. He HAD connections to Neo Nazi's but more recxently to one of Sweden's most violent hooligan groups (soccer). He has previous records of violence and has been sentenced for STABBING.

After the arrest he apparently tried suicide BY EATING HIS OWN CLOTHES but was stopped.:wink8:

The image that more and more stands out is of a deranged person that apparently for political purposes decided to kill Anna Lindh. There seems to be no trace whatsoever of any conspiration this is solely a one man deed.

It seems he is the next one in the line of people that murders celebrities. He will share the same "hall of fame" as the murderers of MLK- Robert Kennedy - John Lennon - Palme etc.

[karl]

Well, he can eat my shorts!

[DanishDynamite]

Claus,

In regard to whether this killing was politically motivated, I just read in Berlingske Tidende (http://www.berlingske.dk/udland/artikel:aid=359848:fid=100100132/) (in Danish) how the murderer apparently shouted "You're gonna get it now, you devil!". After stabbing her, he said "There, you got what you deserved".

Hardly seems like a purse-snatching gone wrong.

[CWL]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Claus,

In regard to whether this killing was politically motivated, I just read in Berlingske Tidende (http://www.berlingske.dk/udland/artikel:aid=359848:fid=100100132/) (in Danish) how the murderer apparently shouted "You're gonna get it now, you devil!". After stabbing her, he said "There, you got what you deserved".

Hardly seems like a purse-snatching gone wrong.

Yup. The report originally comes from Expressen (http://www.expressen.se/expressen/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=737&a=64118).

[LW]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
"You're gonna get it now, you devil!".

Since the swear words differ from culture to culture, it might be a good idea to mention that "devil" is sort of basic swear word in Swedish and doesn't necessarily imply any religious context.

[CWL]

Originally posted by LW


Since the swear words differ from culture to culture, it might be a good idea to mention that "devil" is sort of basic swear word in Swedish and doesn't necessarily imply any religious context.

True. In the context I suppose it would translate into "bastard", "bitch" or "son of a bitch" depending of course on the gender of the subject of the cursing.

[CWL]

Originally posted by CWL


True. In the context I suppose it would translate into "bastard", "bitch" or "son of a bitch" depending of course on the gender of the subject of the cursing.

Breaking news (http://www.expressen.se/expressen/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=737&a=65005)

The police have just dismissed the guy who was previously arrested and the have now arrested a new person, who they police say "is our man".

[Cleopatra]

The man suspected of killing Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh has admitted committing the crime.
Mijailo Mijailovic was arrested following the death of Ms Lindh, who was stabbed in a Stockholm department store last September.

Mr Mijailovic's lawyer, Peter Althin, said his client had confessed to the crime during interrogation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3374979.stm

Nothing about the motive of the murderer though.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Nothing about the motive of the murderer though.
Apparently, it wasn't politically motivated. Just "random".

[MRC_Hans]

Yeh. Roll on the conspiracy theories :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Cleopatra]

Yes, it seems that the murderer wasn't politically motivated. The article mention something about a psychological evaluation of the accused but it doesn't get into details.

[TomStockholm]

Yupp, look like Claus was probably right...

Feels good huh... :-)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by TomStockholm
Yupp, look like Claus was probably right...

Feels good huh... :-)

More relieved..... :)

[CWL]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


More relieved..... :)

Hold your horses there Mr. Super Skeptic! ;)

The article forgot to mention that a flyer representing a Euro bill as well as a flyer from the Swedish Liberal Party (which was very pro the Euro) were found on Mijailovic - and submitted as evidence, together with a picture on the guy attending a Liberal Party rally the day before the murder. Yet the guy has insisted that he is completely uninterested in politics and that he thought that Anna Lindh was a "good person".

Not hard evidence, granted, but certainly indications that a political motive cannot be excluded. There are however absolutely no indications that there is any orgainization or similar behind the murder. Mijailovic is most likely a "lone mad man".

The psychological evaluation is more or less standard procedure in a case like this. All though Mijailovic has blamed "voices" for the murder, he will most likely be found responsible for his actions and will therefore likely be sentenced to jail for murder.