Musharraf declares state of emergency

[Oliver]

Is Musharraf getting crazy? :confused:

Musharraf declares state of emergency (http://us.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/03/pakistan.emergency/index.html)

Faced with increasing violence and unrest, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf today declared a state of emergency, government sources told CNN. The Supreme Court declared the state of emergency illegal. Shortly after, the chief justice was expelled from office. developing story (http://us.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/03/pakistan.emergency/index.html)

[GreNME]

Is Musharraf getting crazy? :confused:

No, Musharref is feeling his control slipping through his fingers. Most of his population hates him, he's got a huge political rival that he can't have assassinated, and his country is housing leading members of the terrorist organization that most of the first world is ready to execute outright.

This has been a long time coming, and it's going to get a lot worse in that country before the mess that is Pakistan is done playing out.

[Oliver]

No, Musharref is feeling his control slipping through his fingers. Most of his population hates him, he's got a huge political rival that he can't have assassinated, and his country is housing leading members of the terrorist organization that most of the first world is ready to execute outright.

This has been a long time coming, and it's going to get a lot worse in that country before the mess that is Pakistan is done playing out.


Mhmm, I know all of that. But to declare state
of emergency out of unpopularity is crazy.

[Oliver]

UPDATE

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf addresses nation
Watch Now: Live on CNN.com » (javascript:cnnLiveVideo('2');)

[corplinx]

Pakistan is a hotbed of Islamists. I think time recently ran a report calling it the most dangerous country or something.

[WildCat]

Mhmm, I know all of that. But to declare state
of emergency out of unpopularity is crazy.
Don't worry Oliver. If it upsets you that a country with nuclear weapons is about to be thrown into chaos by radical Islamic extremists just remember that "there is no terror threat, period!". :rolleyes:

[hgc]

Pakistan is a hotbed of Islamists. I think time recently ran a report calling it the most dangerous country or something.


Too bad Time didn't make that point more forcefully before we invaded Iraq.

Pakistan really, actually has a nuclear arsenal. The father of their nuclear program attempted to proliferate nuclear material elsewhere, and is again out wandering around. The country is constantly on the brink of being taken control of by religious zealots. They are frequently on the brink of war with nuclear neighbor India with whom they have a intractable territorial dispute over Kashmir. They have a history of genocidal lunacy (1970 civil war in East Pakistan). Vast regions of the country are outside the control of any central authority.

I don't like the ways things are going in Pakistan. It was founded in a fit of violent religious zealotry, and it's never really improved in too many ways beyond that point.

[corplinx]

Well, yes, and its hard to get answers about "what is best for pakistan" or "what is best for the region" when talking about political maneuvers in Pakistan.

The one outcome above democracy and everything else we want for Pakistan is for the Islamists to not have the red button.

[Bikewer]

Most of the pundits (at least, the ones I listen to on NPR) say that this was hardly unexpected.

"We" just barely talked him out of it some weeks back. The supreme court on the verge of invalidating his election, Taliban-type Islamists taking over the Northern provinces, Bhutto trying for a "power-sharing" deal, general unrest even among the growing middle classes...

Like most tinpot dictators (oh, excuse...Allies In The War Against Terrorism) the man wants only to remain in power.

[GreNME]

Mhmm, I know all of that. But to declare state
of emergency out of unpopularity is crazy.

I don't think you understand. The dude ran a military coup and most of the population hates him. Not hate as in the "I'm going to vote him out next election" sense. Hate in the "if enough people are revolting I'm going to make some molotov cocktails and grab a gun" sense. In a lot of the provincial areas the Taliban already holds local control. Basically, what is at risk is another Taliban uprising like there was in Afghanistan where they took control for a number of years. Bhuto's presence makes Musharraf's power seem even less consolidated than previously thought. The Taliban has been waiting for an event significant enough to take advantage of for a while. They've already established their influence enough that taking them out hasn't been an option for Musharaf for years.

The biggest reason I've had a problem with keeping Pakistan as an "ally" all this time is that they are the home base for the Taliban. It's all well and good that we have a good idea where the heads of al Qaeda are likely hiding, but it hasn't been a stable country with Musharaf's regime. I don't even have the international intelligence data that the CIA has and I could see this coming for at least the last four years. They very well might figure out a way to stem this emergency off, but it'll only be temporary as long as the Taliban still maintains a heavy presence.

[geni]

Well, yes, and its hard to get answers about "what is best for pakistan" or "what is best for the region" when talking about political maneuvers in Pakistan.

The one outcome above democracy and everything else we want for Pakistan is for the Islamists to not have the red button.

I suspect india would have a solution which would meet that objective.

[Oliver]

Pakistani opposition leaders and activists have been detained
in the wake of President Pervez Musharraf's decision to declare
emergency rule...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7077443.stm

[Antiquehunter]

Put it this way... as a long-term resident of the neighbouring country, I am watching developments with significant interest...

[a_unique_person]

Pakistan is a hotbed of Islamists. I think time recently ran a report calling it the most dangerous country or something.

It's now more of a hotbed of Islamists than it ever was, thanks to regional instability, you mean.

You have to look at the US asking Turkey not to attack the PKK because 'it could destabilise the region', and wonder if you should laugh or cry.

[a_unique_person]

Put it this way... as a long-term resident of the neighbouring country, I am watching developments with significant interest...

Do you think the bomb aimed at Bhutto was placed by Al Qaeda or Musharaff?

[Oliver]

It's now more of a hotbed of Islamists than it ever was, thanks to regional instability, you mean.

You have to look at the US asking Turkey not to attack the PKK because 'it could destabilise the region', and wonder if you should laugh or cry.


I prefer to laugh about it since people are stupid enough to
believe this BS and there's nothing we can do about it anyway.
But hey, let's not forget that Iran is the real threat if we imagine
them having all the nuclear weapons Pakistan already has...

http://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs020.gifhttp://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs017.gifhttp://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs018.gifhttp://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs019.gifhttp://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs022.gifhttp://www.dreamsignature.com/sigs/sigs021.gif

[Whiplash]

Surely this is Bush's fault somehow. Isn't it?

[Oliver]

Surely this is Bush's fault somehow. Isn't it?


It is - since he cares more about Iraq and Iran instead
cleaning up Afghanistan and claiming that Pakistan is
just fine ...


... *lol* :D IDIOT (http://web.mit.edu/margret/www/myndir/comics/bush_chimp.jpg)!

[Antiquehunter]

Do you think the bomb aimed at Bhutto was placed by Al Qaeda or Musharaff?

I'm not in a position to make an informed speculation. If forced to SPECULATE, I would suggest the bomb was likely placed by pro-Musharaf forces / police organization loyal to Pervez.

[KoihimeNakamura]

It's not Bush's fault, but he should be blamed for closing his ears.

[a_unique_person]

I'm not in a position to make an informed speculation. If forced to SPECULATE, I would suggest the bomb was likely placed by pro-Musharaf forces / police organization loyal to Pervez.

You are much better placed to make an informed guess than most of us. Our conservative politicians in Australia (who currently are in power), were quick to blame Al Qaeada, as they would. Some sections of the press, however, were more curious as to who was to blame. Radical Islam is to blame for a lot of the violence that is happening, such as the Red Mosque, but this was not so obvious.

[jsiv]

I hope, Oliver, that you don't think Musharraf being forced out of power is going to have any positive consequences or in any way bring Pakistan closer to democracy.

[Undesired Walrus]

I think Musharraf should just go up to the top of his headquarters, bringing with him his entire cabinet, all dressed in pink short skirts below their military uniforms, and sing down at the upturned cars, burning shops;

'Always look on the bright side of life'

Then all the chaps would look up and become so amazed they would begin to sing with them. Obviously a severed head of an infidel clasped in an Islamists hand would sing;

'Life's a piece of ****, when you think of it'

As explosions ruptured along the land, radicals and normal people would join hands and go;

'Always look on the bright side of death
Right before you draw your terminal breath'

That UN resolutions are not in place to make this happen is an outrage. Get your act together Musharraf!

[Thunder]

This is bad, very very bad. Musharaf is arresting and detaining opposition politicians. He shut down opposition media. Eventually the people will rise up, and Musharaf will be kicked out. Islamic extremists will now have their best opportunity to take over the country, and possess a nuke.

Alex Jones must be loving this.

[Oliver]

This is bad, very very bad. Musharaf is arresting and detaining opposition politicians. He shut down opposition media. Eventually the people will rise up, and Musharaf will be kicked out. Islamic extremists will now have their best opportunity to take over the country, and possess a nuke.

Alex Jones must be loving this.


It would be worse if Bush would declare a State of Emergency, thanks
to the enhancing Bills and Executive Orders passed by this Administration.
But what if Pakistans Government crashes and no one is able to protect
the nuclear arsenal any longer? Damn, that would be even crazier than
all Alex Jones predictions... :D

[GreNME]

It would be worse if Bush would declare a State of Emergency, thanks
to the enhancing Bills and Executive Orders passed by this Administration.

No, it really wouldn't be worse. There are still far more checks and balances in place to keep things under control here in DC.

But what if Pakistans Government crashes and no one is able to protect
the nuclear arsenal any longer? Damn, that would be even crazier than
all Alex Jones predictions... :D

I think you mean "more realistic" instead of "crazier" in this case.

[Oliver]

No, it really wouldn't be worse. There are still far more checks and balances in place to keep things under control here in DC.

I think you mean "more realistic" instead of "crazier" in this case.


It would be both - more crazier and more realistic than everything
we heard from Alex Jones so far. And concerning "wouldn't be
worse":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22state+of+emergency%22+executive+order+site%3A whitehouse.gov&btnG=Search

[KoihimeNakamura]

For the last [rule10] time, every president issues that order to ensure there's not panic if say, D.C is nuked.

[Thunder]

As far as martial law in the USA is concerned, I dont think it could even be done. How could you possibly enforce martial law in a nation of 300 million? All our national guard is in Iraq. Does Bush have some super secret police force waiting underground to take over?

[WildCat]

As far as martial law in the USA is concerned, I dont think it could even be done. How could you possibly enforce martial law in a nation of 300 million? All our national guard is in Iraq. Does Bush have some super secret police force waiting underground to take over?
There's 165 million people in Pakistan... and the government can't even control the whole country w/o martial law. The place is not exactly locked down because Musharaff says so.

[steverino]

Maybe the Bhutto thinggy will work. She's corrupt, but doesn't seem crazy.

[a_unique_person]

Maybe the Bhutto thinggy will work. She's corrupt, but doesn't seem crazy.

How corrupt was Bhutto? I have heard plenty of allegations from Musharraf, but don't know how they stack up. The generals now run the place, which means they make most of the money. They have business interests all over the country, and control key areas of the economy.

[Antiquehunter]

Folks... I don't care who becomes PM / President of Pakistan. He/She will be corrupt. There is simply NO way to run one of these countries without behaving in a corrupt fashion (by Western standards).

[richardm]

As far as martial law in the USA is concerned, I dont think it could even be done. How could you possibly enforce martial law in a nation of 300 million? All our national guard is in Iraq. Does Bush have some super secret police force waiting underground to take over?

There are 1.4 million active service personnel in the US Military, and only about 160,000 in Iraq. So I daresay there would be some spare. I don't know how effective it would be though? It seems to go against the US grain.

Edit: A senior Pakistan judge has been exhorting people to rise up against Mushaffaf - "It is now time for sacrifices". Worrying times.

[Darth Rotor]

There are 1.4 million active service personnel in the US Military, and only about 160,000 in Iraq. So I daresay there would be some spare. I don't know how effective it would be though? It seems to go against the US grain.
Another 100,000 or so are in Europe, and a bit less in Asia/The Pacific. Martial law application in the US might be done successfully in one locale or another, but trying to pull that off across the country will likely see a rising of the militia, and not a well regulated one. :p
Edit: A senior Pakistan judge has been exhorting people to rise up against Mushaffaf - "It is now time for sacrifices". Worrying times.
I wonder if he is taking a cue from events in Burma? Perhaps not.
Pakistan is a hotbed of Islamists. I think time recently ran a report calling it the most dangerous country or something.
Nat Geo did an interesting article on Pakistan recently, one well worth a read. From that article (http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0709/pakistan/pakistan.html).

Whether by temperament or tradition, most Pakistani Muslims are more comfortable with the mystical and ecstatic rituals of Barelvi Islam, a colorful blend of Indian Islamic practice and Sufism. For a Punjabi farmer whose crop has just come in, it has always been more satisfying to hang out at a Sufi shrine listening to qawwali music and watching dervishes whirl than reciting the Koran in a fundamentalist mosque. Most Pakistanis, though powerless to resist, were lukewarm to Zia's Islamization program, as was much of the outside world.
The Islamists within Pakistan tend to be energetic, which is why their relative minority hardly matters.

DR

[dudalb]

Folks... I don't care who becomes PM / President of Pakistan. He/She will be corrupt. There is simply NO way to run one of these countries without behaving in a corrupt fashion (by Western standards).

You have a point,but someone who is corrupt is one thing, a religious fanatic is another.

[dudalb]

Maybe the Bhutto thinggy will work. She's corrupt, but doesn't seem crazy.

And that is about the best you can hope for in politics nowdays..and not just in Pakistan or the Mid East....