Messages From Heaven?

[kurious_kathy]

I have recently viewed this documentary and find the Marian apparitions quite alarming. Has anyone else here viewed it yet? I would like your opinion on it if you have seen it.

I myself think it is a major spiritual deception. These sightings do seem real and the concern is they are happening all over the globe. Why is this so called "queen of heaven appearing to people?"

Also here a link I just found on the internet sight for Eternal Productions...
http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFromHeaven/english.html

[Jeff Corey]

It's just a trick by Satan. You know how he loves a good joke.

[fuelair]

Just delusions of the psychologically needy. As are other things discussed on this forum.

[articulett]

Wouldn't it be fun to see Kurious Kathy engage in dialogue with Fred Carr (our current resident Scientologist)-- and T'ai too. Oh, and DOC. But they all just talk and none listen... all are here to preach... none have a clue as to what they can learn.

[Apology]

Gosh, Kathy, it's over an hour long. Can you post some of the more relevant bits on Youtube or something? I still have to get dinner ready :blush:

[Showmeproof]

Definitely some sort of psychologically induced hallucination. I guess these people want to believe SO badly, that they probably take any sensation out of the norm and assume it to be something supernatural!

[articulett]

Definitely some sort of psychologically induced hallucination. I guess these people want to believe SO badly, that they probably take any sensation out of the norm and assume it to be something supernatural!

Kurious Kathy does this kind of thing pretty regularly. She's a fundamentalist Christian always trolling for new converts at the JREF forum. I think they give you heaven bonus points if you convert an atheist. We have a few resident woos... engage them for entertainment purposes only and your head won't explode.

[Showmeproof]

Kurious Kathy does this kind of thing pretty regularly. She's a fundamentalist Christian always trolling for new converts at the JREF forum. I think they give you heaven bonus points if you convert an atheist. We have a few resident woos... engage them for entertainment purposes only and your head won't explode.


Well, trust me, she has no chance in h*ll converting me to anything! :)

What are "woos"? I am new to this board.

[Jeff Corey]

Woos are people who believe in weird things, according to James Randi and others. I believe Daffy Duck coined the phrase "Woo-woo!"
It doesn't really appeal to me, so I use "creduloids" or "stupid dumbfarks" instead.

[Miss Whiplash]

I have recently viewed this documentary and find the Marian apparitions quite alarming. Has anyone else here viewed it yet? I would like your opinion on it if you have seen it.

I myself think it is a major spiritual deception. These sightings do seem real and the concern is they are happening all over the globe. Why is this so called "queen of heaven appearing to people?"

Also here a link I just found on the internet sight for Eternal Productions...
http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFromHeaven/english.html

It's all part of Satan's plan Kathy. Jack Chick came down (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp) from heaven on wheels of fire and explained it to me last night.

[DoubtingStephen]

I find it hard to accept that people who have never seen a woman that quite likely never existed could do such an amazingly good job of recognizing her. If I told you that I recognized a member of your family in a pattern of light reflected on an overhead garage door from a window across the street, would you wonder when I had previously met your family member? How could I recognize a person I have never met or seen?

The only thing I know for sure about the Virgin Mary is that she is of exactly the same ethic and racial background as each and every person that imagines her. In Africa she is black, in Asia she is Asian, in America she has dark hair when imagined by people of Hispanic origins, or blue eyes when imagined by Caucasians. One wonders whether every woman ever born is a dead ringer for her, and perhaps even a few men dressed in drag. Surely you have heard a gay man refer to another gay man as Mary?

It seems that only Catholics suffer from these delusional sightings of this imaginary virgin thought to be the imaginary mother of the imaginary son of an Imaginary Bearded Sky Daddy.

I've been studying these cases as material for one of my bitterly anti-religious satire websites, Virgin Mary (again), and it is clear that the psychological process called pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia) is at work here. Each and every such sighting is completely imaginary and nothing more.

I've also noticed that in a very high percentage of cases, the shape of these imaginary apparitions closely resembles the shape of a human vagina.

This led me to discover that by including the word hymen, typically in a very sarcastic way, in each blog post about Marian Apparitions the number of hits to the site increased very dramatically. People like to search the web for information about the hymen, and I'm perfectly happy offering them anti-religious sarcasm along with their hymen details.

Maybe the message Mary is trying to send us is that after 2,000 years her hymen is still intact. She could be gloating, or just rubbing it in for those brazen hussies that have sex.

During my 12 years of Catholic school, which I did thankfully survive, I can't recall it ever being explicitly stated that the imaginary virginity of the imaginary mother of the imaginary son of the Imaginary Bearded Sky Daddy actually included an intact hymen, but such a claim does not seem inconsistent with the style of Catholic fairy tales.

And to answer your question about why such reports have increased, there is the fact that our planet now contains the largest total numbers of delusional persons suffering from a religious affliction ever, and news reporters like a good laugh too.

[Apology]

I've often wondered what would happen if there were a skeptic in the crowd when one of these mass Virgin sightings happened. What would I have seen if I was there? Nothing? Sun flare or weird cloud or some other naturally-occurring phenomenon? A woman who isn't the Virgin Mary? I can almost imagine myself running from person to person, yelling "WHAT? What do you see? There's nothing there!" Would my lack of belief be enough to prevent the Virgin from materializing? What good would that do, if she only appears to the faithful? They're already convinced!

I had a friend who insisted that he'd seen a miracle. A woman levitated in his church, and everyone saw it. I wonder if I would see her just laying there, since you have to "believe" to see the miracle. I suspect I would have seen her levitate and would have known exactly how the trick was done. :D I wonder if a skeptic's lack of belief can serve as a sort of preventative, though.

[Apology]

Also, how come demons and the devil can get to unbelievers, but the Virgin Mary can't? Doesn't seem fair. :mad:

[DoubtingStephen]

I've often wondered what would happen if there were a skeptic in the crowd when one of these mass Virgin sightings happened.

Hopefully in such a case you would not become a victim of violence. That possibility strikes me as conceivable if perhaps unlikely. People deeply resent those who fail to participate in shared delusions.

[Apology]

Hopefully in such a case you would not become a victim of violence. That possibility strikes me as conceivable if perhaps unlikely. People deeply resent those who fail to participate in shared delusions.

Yeah I could see how that could get ugly. I'd be getting between people and their miracle. I can't say I think they would like that :eye-poppi

[catbasket]

I find it hard to accept ...

Ooh you are so nominated, DS.

[DoubtingStephen]

Ooh you are so nominated, DS.

Grazie!

[catbasket]

Grazie!

Oh yeah? Just don't do it again ;)

[fuelair]

Well, trust me, she has no chance in h*ll converting me to anything! :)

What are "woos"? I am new to this board.Besides the - correct - data already given, woo is sometimes used as an abbreviation for waster of oxygen or Waster of Our Oxygen.

[fuelair]

Yeah I could see how that could get ugly. I'd be getting between people and their miracle. I can't say I think they would like that :eye-poppi
Heavy caliber automatic weapons might well mitigate that problem.:)

[Alice Shortcake]

Many years ago I noticed an image of the BVM - ie, a veiled woman surrounded by what DoubtingSteven correctly described as a vaginal/mandorla shape - at the factory where I worked. For reasons best known to herself she had manifested herself in the swirly pattern of the linoleum in the women's toilet. :jaw-dropp

Fortunately I was familiar with pareidolia, so instead of falling down in prayer I merely pointed it out to my co-workers and we had a good laugh. Had this incident occurred in a Catholic country people would have been flocking to see the miracle, the factory owner could have made a fortune selling tacky souvenirs and the female workforce would have been obliged to share the men's room. :blush:

[kurious_kathy]

Kurious Kathy does this kind of thing pretty regularly. She's a fundamentalist Christian always trolling for new converts at the JREF forum. I think they give you heaven bonus points if you convert an atheist. We have a few resident woos... engage them for entertainment purposes only and your head won't explode.

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion. But I am truly concerned that Satan is using this appearance of Mary to deceive people into thinking they should believe and follow her. Jesus warned us that many false Christ's would appear to deceive even the elect if that were possible.

Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise! And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel. Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"

[Starrman]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion.

False dichotomy - it doesn't have to be either real or a delusion. Many of the people are simply mistaken, and many of them may not be telling the truth. There are lots of explanations that do not require any magic.

[DoubtingStephen]

But I am truly concerned that Satan is using this appearance of Mary to deceive people into thinking they should believe and follow her.

Those virgins sure can be tempting, I have to agree with that part. But I find real virgins that actually exist much more interesting than the imaginary virgins that are 2,000 years old and live outside of objective reality. I mean, sometimes I do imagine a virgin, but his name is never Mary.

But you know, it's important when you are imagining virgins to remember that they are just imaginary.

And besides, Satan would have to exist before he could deceive anyone.

[kurious_kathy]

False dichotomy - it doesn't have to be either real or a delusion. Many of the people are simply mistaken, and many of them may not be telling the truth. There are lots of explanations that do not require any magic.

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm. Just because you cannot see him doesn't mean he's not there!

[FramerDave]

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm. Just because you cannot see him doesn't mean he's not there!

I have an invisible unicorn in my garage. You can't see her, but she's there. Prove she's not.

[Palimpsest]

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm. Just because you cannot see him doesn't mean he's not there!

Heh. I'd totally forgotten about you during my hiatus from this forum. I just may have to take you out of Ignore.

So, k_kathy, have you watched the video? In particular, did you read the disclaimer at the beginning? "The following dramatization is based on the testimony of several visionaries and what they say will soon occur on planet earth" (emphasis mine)

Dramatization. Not a documentary. About as reliable as those "alien interviews" peddled to UFO nuts. Not impressed.

[arthwollipot]

Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers?For exactly the same reason you won't acknowledge your subservience to Odin.

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.And you know they aren't making it up because...?

[CyberCecil]

Besides the - correct - data already given, woo is sometimes used as an abbreviation for waster of oxygen or Waster of Our Oxygen.


I have never heard that definition before. I find it quite appropriate.

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm. Just because you cannot see him doesn't mean he's not there!


The same thing can be said about Bigfoot and extraterrestrials with anal fetishes, but that doesn't mean they are real as well.

It amazes me that those with an unyielding faith in god always seem to jump at the most tenuous of sightings as undeniable proof even though they always claim that proof, or the lack thereof, is irrelevant to their belief.

I will never believe until the Virgin Mary appears on a concrete overpass or a garage door. This, and this alone, will prove to me that god exists.

[Antiquehunter]

Hey KK...

'It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign' Matthew 16:4

Medugorje has been disavowed by the 'holy see'. If the catholic church says it a bunch of whacked out nutjobs looking to increase tourism revenues, good enough for me.

[slingblade]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign

No. We ask for proof. Testable, replicable proof.

and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it.

Not true. It's acknowledged for what it is: bull; meadow muffins; not proof; effluvium.

There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion.

Of course there is a way. In fact, there are a few ways: pareidolia, dishonesty, mental illness, and/or an eagerness to part fools from their money.

But I am truly concerned that Satan is using this appearance of Mary to deceive people into thinking they should believe and follow her. Jesus warned us that many false Christ's would appear to deceive even the elect if that were possible.

So, Mary's a MILF (Mom I'd Like to Follow)?

Anyway, that's rubbish as well. Mary veneration has gone on for a very long time. It isn't recent, and I would be willing to bet these "sightings" were just as, if not more, prevalent in centuries past than they are today.

Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise! And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel. Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"

Really? Then you need to shut up. Your Book of Truthiness says you, being female, aren't fit to instruct men. We have plenty of men on these forums, Kathy. You're being VERY disobedient!

For shame.

[arthwollipot]

So, Mary's a MILF (Mom I'd Like to Follow)?

Funny, that's not what I understand that acronym to mean. :D

[slingblade]

Funny, that's not what I understand that acronym to mean. :D


Ye-essss...funny how we can both see the same thing and yet get different meanings from it.


:p:D:p

[Apology]

Heh. I'd totally forgotten about you during my hiatus from this forum. I just may have to take you out of Ignore.

So, k_kathy, have you watched the video? In particular, did you read the disclaimer at the beginning? "The following dramatization is based on the testimony of several visionaries and what they say will soon occur on planet earth" (emphasis mine)

Dramatization. Not a documentary. About as reliable as those "alien interviews" peddled to UFO nuts. Not impressed.

Thank you for sparing me over an hour of this.

[Lothian]

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm.Sorry, that is the wrong answer.

[Palimpsest]

Thank you for sparing me over an hour of this.

I watched about 10 minutes. They talked a lot about traditional shrines (Lourdes, Guadalupe, Medjugorje, a couple of others), how visions and manifestations of Mary have increased in this century, how they're all similar, and that it seems to point to some millennial... thing. Meh.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I have an invisible unicorn in my garage. You can't see her, but she's there. Prove she's not.

That's not an invisible unicorn, it's an invisible dragon. Invisible unicorns don't have that undetectable firey breath.

[RenaissanceBiker]

A guy on the Motorcycle-USA forum posted this "interesting" picture. This was supposed to be some kind of proof of something. (Click on it for a larger version)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_111684731fa8fbce1a.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=9105)
I said it was proof of airplanes. Then I noticed that the picture was actually turned sideways! If you look in the upper left corner you will see a bird standing sideways on a ledge. What you see on the left side of the picture is actually the top of a tractor trailer. After noticing that I said, "Doesn't Jesus know which way is up?"

[fuelair]

I have recently viewed this documentary and find the Marian apparitions quite alarming. Has anyone else here viewed it yet? I would like your opinion on it if you have seen it.

I myself think it is a major spiritual deception. These sightings do seem real and the concern is they are happening all over the globe. Why is this so called "queen of heaven appearing to people?"

Also here a link I just found on the internet sight for Eternal Productions...
http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFromHeaven/english.html

Just a hint - you misspelled Martian in the first line!! What kind of Martian apparitions have you been seeing - and where? A psychologist might be of some help. Check it out!!!:)

[cyborg]

100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Noooo... of course not.

It's a shame you'll never be able to learn any new tricks but then your programming is far too simplistic to cope with the sophistication of information here so keep banging away Jesusbot.

[Tirdun]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it.
You know what would be a good sign? "I am the lord your God" in mile-high letters on the moon. In Latin, just for that classic feel. Nice heavy font, too.
Jesus warned us that many false Christ's would appear to deceive even the elect if that were possible.
Jesus also said he'd be back before some of his apostles died.
Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise!
Really? It's the end times? Again? I think they should schedule these a bit further apart, give us something to look forward to. I bet Wal-Mart will have End Times decorations out the day after Christmas this year.
And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel.
"professing"? As opposed to what, exactly? "practicing" or "real"?
Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"
But Ahura Mazda created the seven Amesha Spentas so as to guide us in the ultimate overcoming of Angra Mainyu! Why won't you admit that your refusal to work toward the ultimate triumph over Angra Mainyu is holding us all back?

It's true :)

[Skibum]

You know what would be a good sign? "I am the lord your God" in mile-high letters on the moon. In Latin, just for that classic feel. Nice heavy font, too.

That would work for me. I've also considered something like the opening for star wars, his message scrolling across the sky for all to see. I would find that quite convincing as well.

I mean we are talking about god, creator of the universe, surely he can come up with something that is clearly not pareidolia.

[Darth Rotor]

You know what would be a good sign? "I am the lord your God" in mile-high letters on the moon. In Latin, just for that classic feel. Nice heavy font, too.
Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic would work as well.

On the other hand, you could ask yourself what unknown language it is written in, on the moon, when you look up and try to untangle the shadows and craters on the face of a full moon into symbols, in a language you have never seen or read. :cool:

Code breakers, start your computers.

DR

[alfaniner]

It kind of surprises me that no one has claimed Comet Holmes yet.

[RenaissanceBiker]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion.

I'm going to borrow from Douglas Adams.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that apparitions of Mary are a delusion that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "Apparitions of Mary are a dead giveaway aren't they? They could not be delusions. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

[SamanthaMc]

Really? It's the end times? Again? I think they should schedule these a bit further apart, give us something to look forward to. I bet Wal-Mart will have End Times decorations out the day after Christmas this year.




This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. :D

[Hokulele]

Has anyone seen the trailer for "The Bee Movie"? Does KK remind anyone of the bit where the bee is banging its head against the window saying "This time! This time! This time! This time!" repeatedly?

[RenaissanceBiker]

Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic would work as well.

On the other hand, you could ask yourself what unknown language it is written in, on the moon, when you look up and try to untangle the shadows and craters on the face of a full moon into symbols, in a language you have never seen or read. :cool:

Code breakers, start your computers.

DR

Wait, I think I already did that. One night I ate some funky mushrooms and went outside to watch the fireflies. It was awesome. I looked up at the moon and all those shapes in the surface made sense. It said, "Where are your shoes?" I realized that I didn't know where my shoes were! So I went back inside and found them next to the wood box. NEXT TO THE WOODBOX! There was lint in my belly button.

[Madalch]

What you see on the left side of the picture is actually the top of a tractor trailer. After noticing that I said, "Doesn't Jesus know which way is up?"
Hey- if you were nailed to a cross, you'd be more comfortable lying down, too!

[cnorman18]

Interesting thread. One is compelled to wonder, though, even from a (non-Christian) believer's perspective--since God seems to have so effectively constructed the Universe to prevent any possibly objective proof of His existence, why He would be so interested in providing "signs" that run counter to His intentions?

As is my wont, I shall provide a Jewish point of view. I have alluded to this story elsewhere, but I shall here post it in full. The Jewish view of miracles, "signs," and so on ought to be clear.

(Note to those who came in late; this is clearly a teaching story. No claim has ever been made that it is literal history.)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Halakha_&_aggadata_&_midrash.html

-------

Aggadata refers to all of the Talmud's nonlegal discussions, including such varied matters as medical advice, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and folklore.

One particularly well-known bit of aggadata is found in the talmudic tractate Bava Mezia 59b. The aggadata follows a halakhic [that is, concerned with Jewish law] discussion in which the rabbis debated whether an oven that had become impure could be purified. While almost all the sages felt it couldn't be, Rabbi Eliezer, a lone voice but a great scholar, disagreed:

"On that day, Rabbi Eliezer put forward all the arguments in the world, but the Sages did not accept them.

"Finally, he said to them, 'If the halakha is according to me, let that carob-tree prove it.'" He pointed to a nearby carob-tree, which then moved from its place a hundred cubits, and some say, four hundred cubits.

"They said to him, 'One cannot bring a proof from the moving of a carob-tree.'

"Said Rabbi Eliezer, 'If the halakha is according to me, may that stream of water prove it.'" The stream of water then turned and flowed in the opposite direction.

"They said to him, 'One cannot bring a proof from the behavior of a stream of water.'

"Said Rabbi Eliezer, 'If the halakha is according to me, may the walls of the House of Study prove it.' The walls of the House of Study began to bend inward. Rabbi Joshua then rose up and rebuked the walls of the House of Study, 'If the students of the Wise argue with one another in halakha,' he said, 'what right have you to interfere?'

"In honor of Rabbi Joshua, the walls ceased to bend inward; but in honor of Rabbi Eliezer, they did not straighten up, and they remain bent to this day.

"Then, said Rabbi Eliezer to the Sages, 'If the halakha is according to me, may a proof come from Heaven.'

"Then a heavenly voice went forth and said, 'What have you to do with Rabbi Eliezer? The halakha is according to him in every place.'

"Then Rabbi Joshua rose up on his feet, and said, '[The Torah] is not in the heavens!' (Deuteronomy 30:12).

"What did he mean by quoting this? Said Rabbi Jeremiah, 'He meant that since the Torah has been given already on Mount Sinai, we do not pay attention to a heavenly voice, for You have written in Your Torah, 'Decide according to the majority' (Exodus 23:2).

"Rabbi Nathan met the prophet Elijah. He asked him, 'What was the Holy One [i.e. God], Blessed be He, doing in that hour?'

"Said Elijah, 'He was laughing and saying, "My children have defeated Me, My children have defeated Me.""'

The British-Jewish scholar and writer Hyam Maccoby has commented: "This extraordinary story strikes the keynote of the Talmud. God is a good father who wants His children to grow up and achieve independence. He has given them His Torah, but now wants them to develop it...."

------

A rather different perspective, no?

[Tanstaafl]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion. But I am truly concerned that Satan is using this appearance of Mary to deceive people into thinking they should believe and follow her. Jesus warned us that many false Christ's would appear to deceive even the elect if that were possible.

Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise! And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel. Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"


This reads like a plot outline for a movie from Cloud Nine Productions.

Seriously, you should flesh out the screenplay and run it past them. You might have a new career!

[Kochanski]

Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise! And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel. Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"

Now, you see the whole purpose of kk's thread was just her way of finding an opportunity to preach at us as always.

Repent for the time is at hand, blah, blah, blah....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Running short on preaching points for the year kk?

Haven't met your preaching quota?

Sorry, you are going to have to do better than that. Pareidolia is amusing but not proof of anything beyond the human desire to see patterns. Personally I look for more interesting shapes in things.

[Foster Zygote]

I find it curious (sorry) that some people seem to be so predisposed to see things as supernatural that they have to engage in apologetics even for claimed supernatural events that contradict their own beliefs. Since KK is convinced that Catholicism is a corruption of True Christianity tm she could have easily dismissed visions of Mary as delusions and deceptions etc. Yet she chose to see these as misleading but still supernatural signs from Satan. Not only does she get to declare visions of Mary to be of the "wrong" faith, but she gets to turn it into a validation of her own beliefs.

[wollery]

Hey- if you were nailed to a cross, you'd be more comfortable lying down, too!Yes, I can confirm that it is indeed more comfortable to be nailed whilst lying down.

[Taffer]

I'm going to borrow from Douglas Adams.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that apparitions of Mary are a delusion that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "Apparitions of Mary are a dead giveaway aren't they? They could not be delusions. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

:D

[Georg]

Yes, I can confirm that it is indeed more comfortable to be nailed whilst lying down.

Nominated for the pith award.

[bluess]

Interesting thread. One is compelled to wonder, though, even from a (non-Christian) believer's perspective--since God seems to have so effectively constructed the Universe to prevent any possibly objective proof of His existence, why He would be so interested in providing "signs" that run counter to His intentions?

As is my wont, I shall provide a Jewish point of view. I have alluded to this story elsewhere, but I shall here post it in full. The Jewish view of miracles, "signs," and so on ought to be clear.

(Note to those who came in late; this is clearly a teaching story. No claim has ever been made that it is literal history.)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Halakha_&_aggadata_&_midrash.html

-------

Aggadata refers to all of the Talmud's nonlegal discussions, including such varied matters as medical advice, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and folklore.

One particularly well-known bit of aggadata is found in the talmudic tractate Bava Mezia 59b. The aggadata follows a halakhic [that is, concerned with Jewish law] discussion in which the rabbis debated whether an oven that had become impure could be purified. While almost all the sages felt it couldn't be, Rabbi Eliezer, a lone voice but a great scholar, disagreed:

"On that day, Rabbi Eliezer put forward all the arguments in the world, but the Sages did not accept them.

"Finally, he said to them, 'If the halakha is according to me, let that carob-tree prove it.'" He pointed to a nearby carob-tree, which then moved from its place a hundred cubits, and some say, four hundred cubits.

"They said to him, 'One cannot bring a proof from the moving of a carob-tree.'

"Said Rabbi Eliezer, 'If the halakha is according to me, may that stream of water prove it.'" The stream of water then turned and flowed in the opposite direction.

"They said to him, 'One cannot bring a proof from the behavior of a stream of water.'

"Said Rabbi Eliezer, 'If the halakha is according to me, may the walls of the House of Study prove it.' The walls of the House of Study began to bend inward. Rabbi Joshua then rose up and rebuked the walls of the House of Study, 'If the students of the Wise argue with one another in halakha,' he said, 'what right have you to interfere?'

"In honor of Rabbi Joshua, the walls ceased to bend inward; but in honor of Rabbi Eliezer, they did not straighten up, and they remain bent to this day.

"Then, said Rabbi Eliezer to the Sages, 'If the halakha is according to me, may a proof come from Heaven.'

"Then a heavenly voice went forth and said, 'What have you to do with Rabbi Eliezer? The halakha is according to him in every place.'

"Then Rabbi Joshua rose up on his feet, and said, '[The Torah] is not in the heavens!' (Deuteronomy 30:12).

"What did he mean by quoting this? Said Rabbi Jeremiah, 'He meant that since the Torah has been given already on Mount Sinai, we do not pay attention to a heavenly voice, for You have written in Your Torah, 'Decide according to the majority' (Exodus 23:2).

"Rabbi Nathan met the prophet Elijah. He asked him, 'What was the Holy One [i.e. God], Blessed be He, doing in that hour?'

"Said Elijah, 'He was laughing and saying, "My children have defeated Me, My children have defeated Me.""'

The British-Jewish scholar and writer Hyam Maccoby has commented: "This extraordinary story strikes the keynote of the Talmud. God is a good father who wants His children to grow up and achieve independence. He has given them His Torah, but now wants them to develop it...."

------

A rather different perspective, no?

If I were shopping for a religion, I would be firmly stuck between Advaita Vedentism and Judaism. That's a great take on a diety.:)

[cnorman18]

If I were shopping for a religion, I would be firmly stuck between Advaita Vedentism and Judaism. That's a great take on a diety.:)

Yeah, you gotta love a religion that tells God to "butt out" as a matter of policy.

[Kopji]

Not to repeat what Palimpsest posted earlier, but the thing Kathy is fretting about us not believing is only a movie.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/10614733cc2d5a666.jpg

[Kochanski]

Not to repeat what Palimpsest posted earlier, but the thing Kathy is fretting about us not believing is only a movie.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/10614733cc2d5a666.jpg

But to Kathy what is the difference between that piece of fiction and the one she believes without question?

[LibraryLady]

I have a friend who is a devout Christian and married to an Episcopal priest. She always says that Mary is the best real estate agent. Every time she appears, she says, "Build me a church on this spot," and land values skyrocket!

[Madalch]

I have a friend who is a devout Christian and married to an Episcopal priest. She always says that Mary is the best real estate agent. Every time she appears, she says, "Build me a church on this spot," and land values skyrocket!
Have there been any cases where someone has attempted to build a church on land they didn't own, because Mary told them to?

[Charlie Monoxide]

I have recently viewed this documentary and find the Marian apparitions quite alarming. I myself think it is a major spiritual deception.
Aw sister kathy, you are suffering from the sin of "rationality". You are refusing to accept this at face value ....

Charlie (you have lost faith!) Monoxide

[shuttlt]

Kurious Kathy,

How do you explain the following 'proofs' of Islam. Witness the miracle of the 'Allah Tomato':
http://www.freewebs.com/islamicyouths/miraclesofislamimages.htm

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Kurious Kathy,

How do you explain the following 'proofs' of Islam. Witness the miracle of the 'Allah Tomato':
http://www.freewebs.com/islamicyouths/miraclesofislamimages.htm

God is a very, very confused entity with some sort of Multiple Personality Disorder? :scared:

[Nogbad]

Kathy should perhaps consider that Roman Catholic is the right answer



;)

[Vic Vega]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion. But I am truly concerned that Satan is using this appearance of Mary to deceive people into thinking they should believe and follow her. Jesus warned us that many false Christ's would appear to deceive even the elect if that were possible.

Satan and his minions are running short on time and spiritual deception is on the rise! And that goes for you professing atheists as well, you are being blinded to the truth of the gospel. Jesus died to save you from your sins and an eternity in hell. Why won't you admit you are a sinner just like me in need of the forgiveness Jesus offers? The truth sets us free and that's all I want for people to know..."it's all true!!"



How can anyone not be swayed by that argument?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Furthermore, how do we explain the continued sightings of obviously dead threads?

[articulett]

Shuttit's going to hell for resurrecting this thread...

[cannotthinkofaname]

I think it is more of trick of light and shadow, but then however people want to interperet it as some thing spiritual then I say let them

[shuttlt]

Shuttit's going to hell for resurrecting this thread...

But this seems like such an obviously solvable issue. A couple more posts and I feel sure we'll get there....

Incidentally, have any topics under Religion and Philosophy every actually been resolved, or do they all just die of old age.

[Moochie]

How can anyone not be swayed by that argument?


Indeed!

Kathy, are you fulfilling some sort of "contractual obligation" to your pastor by posting here? Do you write your own posts, or do you have an algorithm do it for you? The reason I ask is that your statements seem like those of an automaton and are utterly unconvincing to me. Perhaps you are more persuasive in the flesh, so to speak, but sorry, I am unmoved by what you have written up to now.


M.

[I Ratant]

You guys are the ones always asking for a sign and when you get one you can't even acknowledge it. There is no way all these sightings being reported are a delusion. ...
.
Like the sun aerobatics reported by 80,000 people at Fatima.
These reports couldn't be peer pressure, with people hearing of the alleged phenomena agreeing that they'd seen it also, as they of course were just as holy and devoted as the first guys that said they saw it, so I saw it too!
But what about the -millions- of people who were also outside that day, just across the Appennines, engaging in that extreme outdoor activity we've come to call World War One!
They din't see s**t! Just more death, that day.
How come it is that BVM "showed" herself to a few yokels in Portugal, rather than at the trench lines in France, where a REAL miracle would have had a salutary effect on the fate of the world after the appearance?
Both sides were after all relying on god to be on their side.
These "miracles" always fall short of being worth the effort; wrong place, wrong time, wrong witnesses.

[LibraryLady]

How in the world did this thread get resurrected? And why?

[Foster Zygote]

How in the world did this thread get resurrected? And why?

In fulfillment of prophecy.

[Kopji]

Falls under the category of

Those who deny reason cannot be conquered by it...

Well Kathy's back, and says she is the wife of Christian Dude. I am more inclined to think that they are probably the same poster but I admit that is wishful thinking. I shudder to think that in a few years we will have a new poster called Kathy Christian Kid. :|

[Elizabeth I]

Falls under the category of

Those who deny reason cannot be conquered by it...

Well Kathy's back, and says she is the wife of Christian Dude. I am more inclined to think that they are probably the same poster but I admit that is wishful thinking. I shudder to think that in a few years we will have a new poster called Kathy Christian Kid. :|

Nah, she can't be. Christian Dude writes like an educated, thoughtful person.

[Kopji]

The essence of quality doppleganging is to maintain adequate contrast between your persona's.

[articulett]

But this seems like such an obviously solvable issue. A couple more posts and I feel sure we'll get there....

Incidentally, have any topics under Religion and Philosophy every actually been resolved, or do they all just die of old age.


Well, I know of at least 2 posters that came here as believers... they came to defend against truthers and became skeptical of other woo too... they are amongst the favored posters here.

But usually, people just preach and preach whatever it is they "believe in" with the certainty that they are called on to teach us something or other,-- but it never occurs to them that they might have something to learn from us. They know other people can be deceived and wrong... they just never think it could be true of them. They need so littlle evidence to confirm what they already believe and all the evidence in the world is not enough to change their mind. But usually they are vague about what exactly they believe and why and what evidence (if any) would change their mind.

It's the same with the truthers, homeopaths, Mormons, Christians, Scientologists, believers in psychics, reincarnationists, creationists, -- all the woo... they all use the same sorts of arguments... the same logical fallacies... they all think that "faith" is a way to "know"... they all see "signs" that confirm their biases... they all think that "scientists not explaining things to their satisfaction" means that their "woo is true". They think it's good to "believe in" whatever it is they've been indoctrinated to believe in-- they feel special and chosen for being "in on" whatever truth they think they have.

[arthwollipot]

I think I just came up with a new definition for "woo".

Woo is unfounded certainty, and it is poisoning the minds of our young people today.

[articulett]

Yes... they seem to think that saying "I know" makes something more true than saying "I believe"...

But the truth doesn't care whether it's "believed in" or not. Saying "I know (there is a god/devil/reincarnation/conspiracy/etc.)" does NOT make something so.

You can believe the moon is made of cheese until the cows come home... you can claim to KNOW it is so--it still is made of rock.

[Robert Oz]

.
Like the sun aerobatics reported by 80,000 people at Fatima.
These reports couldn't be peer pressure, with people hearing of the alleged phenomena agreeing that they'd seen it also, as they of course were just as holy and devoted as the first guys that said they saw it, so I saw it too!



I defy anyone who can look directly at the sun with the naked eyes for a second or two and not see spots of many colours dancing around the sky.

[articulett]

If you stare at the dot in the middle for 20 seconds or so, the fluff disappears...

Eyes don't just "see" --they interpret. And brains do too.

[Robert Oz]

If you stare at the dot in the middle for 20 seconds or so, the fluff disappears...

Eyes don't just "see" --they interpret. And brains do too.


But I know the fluff actually disappeared, because I saw it with my own eyes. Anyone who thinks the fluff didn't actually disappear, is being bamboozled by Satan.

[articulett]

That's true.

I have an inner knowingness, and no amount of evidence can convince me otherwise.

Plus I saw it with my own eyes.

[kurious_kathy]

It's just a trick by Satan. You know how he loves a good joke.Well it's not joke, do you know how many catholics are being deceived this way? This supernatural phenomenon is well documented as thousands have seen this so called mother of heaven, but the things she says to people like calling herself queen of heaven and coredemptrous with Christ is absolute heresy. It is obviously a clear warning for people to not let themselves be deceived by this so called queen of heaven.

Oh Satan is tricky all right and I thank God for this documentary going out is as I linked it on the first post so others can be warned. Not everything spiritual is of God, and this once New age person found that out the hard way!

Oh that I wish I could show you the wonders of Jesus's love for his children, but I guess you would have to be a born again believer before you could ever know. I just know God still does work miracles today, I am one! And the true miracle is the gift of salvation! Jesus lives inside me now and I can't ever stop sharing that truth with others in hopes they can come to know Christ too. The person I was 4 summers ago is not the person I am now that I am in Christ. When He comes into our lives all I can say is he completes us.

[kurious_kathy]

Yes... they seem to think that saying "I know" makes something more true than saying "I believe"...

But the truth doesn't care whether it's "believed in" or not. Saying "I know (there is a god/devil/reincarnation/conspiracy/etc.)" does NOT make something so.

You can believe the moon is made of cheese until the cows come home... you can claim to KNOW it is so--it still is made of rock.
You sound like you don't believe we can have absolute truth in this world? Well I beg to differ, we can know truth and it does make ones soul FREE! You can know it too, but it does take FAITH! If you deny God's Son then the truth is not in you and I know that will be fatal, for all eternity! There is still time for some of you skeptics to repent of your disbelief which gives me a glimmer of HOPE!

[articulett]

There's still time for you to plug yourself into an e-meter and get yourself cured of those nasty engrams causing your disillusionment, Kathy!

I KNOW this is true. If you would just read Dianetics and try the program, you would have the truth revealed to you too. You have been deceived by Xenu, Kathy. Look how successful Tom Cruise is-- that can't be an accident... can't you SEE that Scientology is "the way". Ever since Tom Cruise hooked up with Scientology his life has been up up up. The same with Travolta. How can you even compare your life to theirs?!? How can you let Xenu deceive you so?

[kurious_kathy]

I find it curious (sorry) that some people seem to be so predisposed to see things as supernatural that they have to engage in apologetics even for claimed supernatural events that contradict their own beliefs. Since KK is convinced that Catholicism is a corruption of True Christianity tm she could have easily dismissed visions of Mary as delusions and deceptions etc. Yet she chose to see these as misleading but still supernatural signs from Satan. Not only does she get to declare visions of Mary to be of the "wrong" faith, but she gets to turn it into a validation of her own beliefs.
I still have much to grow in my understanding of scripture, but I am filled with the Holy Spirit and He gives me discernment in these things. I have many Catholic family members and am concerned whether Catholics can become born again as they are taught they only need to be of that denomination to be saved, that is NOT what Jesus says! Jesus himself said no one will enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of the spirit. This is the thing everyone questions true Christians on, not everyone is a spirit filled believer that says they believe in Jesus, they must be chosen by Him and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Don't you see? The elect cannot be deceived if the Holy Spirit is truly in them. And believe me you know when this happens, it's like a day and night difference. The spirit convicts us of our sin so repentance is a gift. Then he forgives and we walk in him turning from the life we once knew. I get so irritating when people go to confession on Sat and they are right back getting drunk that night and sleeping around, that's not repentance. Going to confession won't save anyone if they haven't truly repented which means you stop going back to that familiar old sin. Going to church is not what saves a person either. No it's a big wake up call for all not to take Gods grace for granted!

So I question Catholics on how they can be true followers of Christ and follow things that he did not teach like praying to Mary and the sacraments saving you? No, no, no that is not how it works! You must be born again to be truly saved and then we become discipled. I do believe some Catholics can be saved, but I think they would have to change churches to grow in their walk with the Lord.

A true spirit filled church teaches the pure Word of God. There are so many phony churches I do not want to even discuss it as the Emergent church movement breaks my heart. Hell is real and any church that does not teach it has gone away from the truth. Jesus even talked more about hell than heaven, because he warned people they do not want to go there. It's up to every true believer in Christ to find a healthy church with a true annointed pastor. Just an FYI not everything calling themselves Christian out there is. From what I see in Catholocism I have catorgorized it a cult as it distorts the truth and deceives people on how to truely know and receive Christ. The Eucurist Christ and the Risen Christ are not the same! Jesus is not on the cross anymore, and communion is in remembrance of what he did, it is not sacrificing Jesus over and over again for your sin. That is just not right!!

[arthwollipot]

Certainty.

I'm convinced that it's the certainty.

[kurious_kathy]

There's still time for you to plug yourself into an e-meter and get yourself cured of those nasty engrams causing your disillusionment, Kathy!

I KNOW this is true. If you would just read Dianetics and try the program, you would have the truth revealed to you too. You have been deceived by Xenu, Kathy. Look how successful Tom Cruise is-- that can't be an accident... can't you SEE that Scientology is "the way". Ever since Tom Cruise hooked up with Scientology his life has been up up up. The same with Travolta. How can you even compare your life to theirs?!? How can you let Xenu deceive you so?
Jesus is not Santa Clause! The only thing he promises us as true followers of his is that we will have problems in this world. "For if they hated me what will they do to you?" Seems evident on JREF doesn't it. It's okay to insult me, but I think Jesus takes it personal. I will never deny my God, he is the one true God that sets his people free. And yes that means the promise of heaven, no more pain, no more sorrow, I'm not there yet.

And as for those scientology dudes, forget it. It seems to me God has let them be deceived and they will just get their reward here and now. I know they won't be happy on judgement day to hear their father was the father of lies. Bummer it sucks to be lost. Just because they don't think their lost does not mean they aren't. In fact I will be bold here to state everyone outside of Christ is LOST! End of quote.

[paximperium]

Jesus is not Santa Clause!
True. St. Nicholas actually existed. Can't say the same for some fella named Jesus.


The only thing he promises us as true followers of his is that we will have problems in this world.
Wow...what a great promise


"For if they hated me what will they do to you?" Seems evident on JREF doesn't it.
Sure, Jesus said you'd be persecuted because you turned up in a forum acting like a crazy person and making useless claims and not listening to anyone in return. If that makes you feel special, go knock yourself out.


It's okay to insult me, but I think Jesus takes it personal.
And what? Will Jesus kick our asses?


I will never deny my God, he is the one true God that sets his people free. And yes that means the promise of heaven, no more pain, no more sorrow, I'm not there yet.
Who cares.


And as for those scientology dudes, forget it. It seems to me God has let them be deceived and they will just get their reward here and now. I know they won't be happy on judgement day to hear their father was the father of lies. Bummer it sucks to be lost. Just because they don't think their lost does not mean they aren't. In fact I will be bold here to state everyone outside of Christ is LOST! End of quote.
Ahhhh, the patronizing arrogance. Feels like Church again.
Does it make you feel good to act like an arrogant moron?
Does it make you feel good threatening hell to non-believers?
I can imagine you watching with glee as 3/4 of humanity burn in hell.
I do hope you feel good since you're apparently such a wonderful person.

[Hokulele]

Just because they don't think their lost does not mean they aren't.


Just because you think you are saved, doesn't mean you are.

[calebprime]

I still have much to grow in my understanding of scripture, but I am filled with the Holy Spirit and He gives me discernment in these things. I have many Catholic family members and am concerned whether Catholics can become born again as they are taught they only need to be of that denomination to be saved, that is NOT what Jesus says! Jesus himself said no one will enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of the spirit. This is the thing everyone questions true Christians on, not everyone is a spirit filled believer that says they believe in Jesus, they must be chosen by Him and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Don't you see? The elect cannot be deceived if the Holy Spirit is truly in them. And believe me you know when this happens, it's like a day and night difference. The spirit convicts us of our sin so repentance is a gift. Then he forgives and we walk in him turning from the life we once knew. I get so irritating ...


Nah, you're always entertaining. Don't worry.

[Robin]

I still have much to grow in my understanding of scripture, but I am filled with the Holy Spirit and He gives me discernment in these things. I have many Catholic family members and am concerned whether Catholics can become born again as they are taught they only need to be of that denomination to be saved, that is NOT what Jesus says! Jesus himself said no one will enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of the spirit. This is the thing everyone questions true Christians on, not everyone is a spirit filled believer that says they believe in Jesus, they must be chosen by Him and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Don't you see? The elect cannot be deceived if the Holy Spirit is truly in them. And believe me you know when this happens, it's like a day and night difference. The spirit convicts us of our sin so repentance is a gift. Then he forgives and we walk in him turning from the life we once knew. I get so irritating when people go to confession on Sat and they are right back getting drunk that night and sleeping around, that's not repentance. Going to confession won't save anyone if they haven't truly repented which means you stop going back to that familiar old sin. Going to church is not what saves a person either. No it's a big wake up call for all not to take Gods grace for granted!

So I question Catholics on how they can be true followers of Christ and follow things that he did not teach like praying to Mary and the sacraments saving you? No, no, no that is not how it works! You must be born again to be truly saved and then we become discipled. I do believe some Catholics can be saved, but I think they would have to change churches to grow in their walk with the Lord.

A true spirit filled church teaches the pure Word of God. There are so many phony churches I do not want to even discuss it as the Emergent church movement breaks my heart. Hell is real and any church that does not teach it has gone away from the truth. Jesus even talked more about hell than heaven, because he warned people they do not want to go there. It's up to every true believer in Christ to find a healthy church with a true annointed pastor. Just an FYI not everything calling themselves Christian out there is. From what I see in Catholocism I have catorgorized it a cult as it distorts the truth and deceives people on how to truely know and receive Christ. The Eucurist Christ and the Risen Christ are not the same! Jesus is not on the cross anymore, and communion is in remembrance of what he did, it is not sacrificing Jesus over and over again for your sin. That is just not right!!
Hmm... sounds like you Christians should get together, have a bit of a confab and get your story straight. Then get back to us.

[Mashuna]

I still have much to grow in my understanding of scripture, but I am filled with the Holy Spirit and He gives me discernment in these things.

That's not the Holy Spirit, that's Satan fooling you.

That's why you end up babbling all the time when you try to get your point across.

[Blackadder]

If you stare at the dot in the middle for 20 seconds or so, the fluff disappears...

Eyes don't just "see" --they interpret. And brains do too.


WOW first it didn't work for after a minute, but then I put my face more closely to the screen (about 15 cm) and IT'S a MIRACLE! It did disappear! until i blinked and it all came back.

[kurious_kathy]

Just delusions of the psychologically needy. As are other things discussed on this forum.
And how can you be so sure their delusional, thousands of people have seen this apparition and you skeptics are so easy to say I don't believe because I have not seen it myself. What if you had been there to witness this supernatural phenomemnon, would you still doubt it even if you saw it so others would not call you crazy?? I suspect most of you would doubt it even if you had experienced it because you have been programmed by too much doubt in the unknown. Just my observation of course but I do have a point. Skeptics doubt what they do not understand and that seems pretty closed minded to me.

[Hokulele]

Skeptics doubt because they do understand.

[paximperium]

And how can you be so sure their delusional, thousands of people have seen this apparition and you skeptics are so easy to say I don't believe because I have not seen it myself.
So they saw an apparition...so?


What if you had been there to witness this supernatural phenomemnon, would you still doubt it even if you saw it so others would not call you crazy??
If I saw it I'd actually investigate and find out what it was instead of instantly self deluding yourself with "goddidit!".


I suspect most of you would doubt it even if you had experienced it because you have been programmed by too much doubt in the unknown. Just my observation of course but I do have a point. Skeptics doubt what they do not understand and that seems pretty closed minded to me.
Nope, skeptics doubt exactly because we understand.

We understand how how well the mind works at tricking itself and how error prone it is. We try to understand how the universe works. Believers just do nothing but believe, we actually try to learn and investigate.

[kurious_kathy]

True. St. Nicholas actually existed. Can't say the same for some fella named Jesus.


Wow...what a great promise


Sure, Jesus said you'd be persecuted because you turned up in a forum acting like a crazy person and making useless claims and not listening to anyone in return. If that makes you feel special, go knock yourself out.


And what? Will Jesus kick our asses?


Who cares.


Ahhhh, the patronizing arrogance. Feels like Church again.
Does it make you feel good to act like an arrogant moron?
Does it make you feel good threatening hell to non-believers?
I can imagine you watching with glee as 3/4 of humanity burn in hell.
I do hope you feel good since you're apparently such a wonderful person.

I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement. Why wouldn't everyone do what was needed to avoid that tragedy? Why wouldn't everyone try to avoid going to hell?? That's what saddens me, I do not want people to end up in that horrible place forever wishing they had listened to all those silly Christians that told them, just believe!

[paximperium]

I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement. Why wouldn't everyone do what was needed to avoid that tragedy? Why wouldn't everyone try to avoid going to hell?? That's what saddens me, I do not want people to end up in that horrible place forever wishing they had listened to all those silly Christians that told them, just believe!
Translation:
"Believe us because if you don't our super loving sky god will burn you all in hell. We love you...our god loves you...but if you don't believe, we will torture you for all eternity. Sniff, we had to do it for your own good."

Don't see the hypocrisy and evil that is your belief system and god huh?

[learner]

Jesus is not Santa Clause! The only thing he promises us as true followers of his is that we will have problems in this world. "For if they hated me what will they do to you?" Seems evident on JREF doesn't it. It's okay to insult me, but I think Jesus takes it personal. I will never deny my God, he is the one true God that sets his people free. And yes that means the promise of heaven, no more pain, no more sorrow, I'm not there yet.

And as for those scientology dudes, forget it. It seems to me God has let them be deceived and they will just get their reward here and now. I know they won't be happy on judgement day to hear their father was the father of lies. Bummer it sucks to be lost. Just because they don't think their lost does not mean they aren't. In fact I will be bold here to state everyone outside of Christ is LOST! End of quote.

Kathy. Does the future of an exclusion to heaven and an eternity of hell include people that have never heard of Jesus, Christianity or your god, and as such have no route to salvation? don't you think its a little harsh on these people that are, as you say, outside of Christ, and lost!

[gypsey]

kurious_kathy
I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement. Why wouldn't everyone do what was needed to avoid that tragedy? Why wouldn't everyone try to avoid going to hell?? That's what saddens me, I do not want people to end up in that horrible place forever wishing they had listened to all those silly Christians that told them, just believe!

I typed up this whole long post in answer but I realized you just aren't worth the effort
so you screwed your life up so what every one screws up at times, it's called life and it happens,

just most people don't have to drink the koolaid to move on and get on with it

[I Ratant]

Kathy, you're not preaching to the choir here.
Most folks here have burned their churches, choirs and all! :)
What you have experienced is an awakening of your inner resolve to be a better person.
You've always had this resolve, it's just that you saw no reason to improve your lot in life.
Now that you have, be content that you have overcome problems that you now recognize can be overcome, by your personal efforts.
You don't need any crutch to pay obeisance to for the strength of mind to continue, the power comes from your mind and your heart, no where else.
If you derive some comfort from believing in divine aid, OK, but nothing but your own personal resolve can guide your life.

[Tapio]

"The following dramatization is based on the testimony of several visionaries and what they say will soon occur on planet earth" (emphasis mine)

Kathy, let's go back closer to your OP for a sec. You haven't commented on this one yet.

How about it? Does it matter to you whether the film was a real documentary, or just plain drama?

[Robin]

I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement.
That's a funny place to hold a court.

[Robin]

I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement. Why wouldn't everyone do what was needed to avoid that tragedy? Why wouldn't everyone try to avoid going to hell?? That's what saddens me, I do not want people to end up in that horrible place forever wishing they had listened to all those silly Christians that told them, just believe!
Better an eternity in Hell than an eternity in the presence of a torturer.

It constantly surprises me that Hell-believing Christians cannot see the sickening immorality of the concept.

[godless dave]

It's okay to insult me, but I think Jesus takes it personal.

Hey Jesus! You're a douche-chugging **************** and your feet smell bad.

[gypsey]

godless dave
Originally Posted by kurious_kathy
It's okay to insult me, but I think Jesus takes it personal.
Hey Jesus! You're a douche-chugging **************** and your feet smell bad.

:bigclap

[articulett]

WOW first it didn't work for after a minute, but then I put my face more closely to the screen (about 15 cm) and IT'S a MIRACLE! It did disappear! until i blinked and it all came back.

Xenu works in mysterious ways.

[calebprime]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ZvAVcBIrQ

The Great White Throne is up North, I think, maybe near Santa's house.


Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

"I am not doing anything here to feel special, I just hope some may have an ear to hear because all that do not accept Christ will go before the great white throne of judgement."

[TinfoilCat]

Kurious Kathy,

I too am a Christian, but I severely disagree with your views.

Threatening people to come to Christ or face eternal damnation in Hell, isn't a very good way to make a name for yourself.

On the doctrine on Hell:

Many Fundamentalists claim that Jesus talked of Hell, more than any other thing in the Bible. This is not true. Jesus talked of "Hades" or other places which are not synonyms of Hell. The fabrication of Hell is a modern concept which was construed by mis-translation of the original texts. The concept of Hell is most likely "adopted" from bordering religions such as the Egyptian Religion. Well that was my opinion anyway. :)

Also, please review your biased judgments of the Roman Catholic Church carefully. Not all Catholics believe in the concepts you falsely claimed they believe in. Not ALL of them believe in the SAME thing. Not ALL of them are "not saved". This statement was clearly biased and slightly judgmental.

[kurious_kathy]

Kurious Kathy,

I too am a Christian, but I severely disagree with your views.

Threatening people to come to Christ or face eternal damnation in Hell, isn't a very good way to make a name for yourself.

On the doctrine on Hell:

Many Fundamentalists claim that Jesus talked of Hell, more than any other thing in the Bible. This is not true. Jesus talked of "Hades" or other places which are not synonyms of Hell. The fabrication of Hell is a modern concept which was construed by mis-translation of the original texts. The concept of Hell is most likely "adopted" from bordering religions such as the Egyptian Religion. Well that was my opinion anyway. :)

Also, please review your biased judgments of the Roman Catholic Church carefully. Not all Catholics believe in the concepts you falsely claimed they believe in. Not ALL of them believe in the SAME thing. Not ALL of them are "not saved". This statement was clearly biased and slightly judgmental.
Well I take the verse in Matt 10:28( Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.)
very seriously as there is a healthy fear of God. Jesus himself said he is the only way to the Father so it's important people know that!
It's also important we get out and find those who haven't heard of Christ yet. I fear for others souls, so how do you think we should get through to them? I show love and help the needy when I can. Showing love is #1 and we need to speak the truth into their lives. If we start reading the New Testament Jesus is very straight forward about repentance and we all need that experience to be saved. Repentance is a gift!

[gypsey]

kurious_kathy
(snipped nonsense and drival)
Showing love is #1 and we need to speak the truth into their lives. If we start reading the New Testament Jesus is very straight forward about repentance and we all need that experience to be saved. Repentance is a gift!

you have shown consistantly that you have no idea what love is :mad::mgbanghead

[articulett]

Kathy, your god is omniscient and knows how it's all going to end up anyhow... I don't think he really needs you to save souls at JREF. Moreover, I think you are driving more people away from Christianity than closer to it by sounding as wacked as any cultist who drops by here. Has one person here made a step closer to whatever it is you "believe in" because of your endless preaching here? And how long has it been now? And how long are you going to keep at it? And what evidence do you have that this is efficacious?

If your life is super duper and you have the magically good truth, then why not just enjoy it instead of inflicting it on others? Why don't you treat nonbelievers the way you want Scientologists and Mormons and Muslims to treat you? Why can't you see that to us, you are no different than them--you are no different than any deluded person trying to convince us to believe their delusion. There is nothing that sets you apart from all the other "woo". They ALL think their woo is true. They all think that somehow they've stumbled upon some "divine truth" that can only be accessed through subjective means. I know you think you are coming across as nice and "saved" and someone that others would like to be like-- but that's because you have blinders on. We don't want to be like you. You are just coming across as loony to us as Scientologists seem to you... as certain as the hijackers who drove planes into buildings... as primitive as rain dancers playing with voo doo dolls.... as childish as a kid waiting for Santa, and as wrong as those who truly believe that Sylvia Browne has psychic powers.

And you never give us reasons to think otherwise. It's always just more of the same. It always has been. Are you sure you are not trying to convince yourself by convincing us? Sure, someone might have a life change and then think it was because you brought them to Jesus... after all, that "worked" to make you a believer. But I think the people here are a little beyond that ruse. They understand how readily humans confuse correlation with causation and plug in the story they've been indoctrinated to "believe in". To them, it would be like wishing on a star and having that wish come true. Nobody here would think that "wishing on a star" really makes wishes come true... even if their wish came true.

Get it?

(I thought not.)

[Elizabeth I]

Kathy, you're not preaching to the choir here.
Most folks here have burned their churches, choirs and all! :)


Careful - some posters here (most of the present company excepted) are stupid enough to take you literally.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you watch the video? 100's of thousands have seen her and they aren't making it up.

Why don't you quit living in denial, there is a God and he does operate in the supernatural realm. Just because you cannot see him doesn't mean he's not there!While I understand your conviction that seeing is believing and multiple witnesses constitute 'proof', you totally misunderstand what it is about these kind of sightings that lead us to conclude they are false.

There are volumes of valid scientific research demonstrating clearly that people, including hundreds of witnesses at a time in some cases, are not always interpreting what they see correctly. There are better explanations for the evidence than those you believe in that people are seeing actual apparitions in the sky (or wherever).

[Hokulele]

...

Get it?

(I thought not.)


Well said.

[wollery]

While I understand your conviction that seeing is believing and multiple witnesses constitute 'proof', you totally misunderstand what it is about these kind of sightings that lead us to conclude they are false.

There are volumes of valid scientific research demonstrating clearly that people, including hundreds of witnesses at a time in some cases, are not always interpreting what they see correctly. There are better explanations for the evidence than those you believe in that people are seeing actual apparitions in the sky (or wherever).Not to mention mass hysteria, a phenomenon which can make huge numbers of people experience the same event, even though the event they experience isn't actually happening anywhere except in their minds.

[Moochie]

Kathy, you're always on about "believe, believe, believe," but what about someone who would like to but cannot? I mean, it's not as though one can throw a switch and suddenly "see the light," is it? Surely you are aware that there are a large variety of people here, some of them Christians with a far more subtle and sophisticated understanding of their religion than you seem to have, and yet you dismiss them along with anyone else whose beliefs are not in lockstep with yours. Can you not see how alienating this is? Your approach keeps everyone at arm's length, and I doubt that is what you wish to accomplish. Eventually you'll probably end up on a great many ignore lists, either actually or at least figuratively. Whatever your particular church is telling you, it doesn't appear to be working.


M.

[Beerina]

Well it's not joke, do you know how many catholics are being deceived this way? This supernatural phenomenon is well documented as thousands have seen this so called mother of heaven, but the things she says to people like calling herself queen of heaven and coredemptrous with Christ is absolute heresy. It is obviously a clear warning for people to not let themselves be deceived by this so called queen of heaven.


"But what if you're wrong?"

But even if you're right, do you find it wonderful to live in a reality where some god plans on damning literally billions of Catholics because they were deceived?

I submit that, on the face of it, is enough to conclude God is not a good, kind, and perfect being.

Worse, according to your theology, said kind god will damn me as well for concluding that.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I shudder to think that in a few years we will have a new poster called Kathy Christian Kid. :|

Bllllarrrgh!

I'm sorry I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[devnull]

I'm sorry I just threw up in my mouth a little.

You know, in some cultures they only eat vomit....





(sorry, I love Dodgeball)

[Tapio]

How about it? Does it matter to you whether the film was a real documentary, or just plain drama?

PLEASE, Kathy, I'm interested! Genuinely! You started this thread because of a film you saw.

Not answering the question leads me to the conclusion that you don't give a damn. Is that so?

I'm not one to bash anybody, I'm just curious about your motives and moral. Maybe you can also learn something from this dialogue?

[Elizabeth I]

I'm not one to bash anybody, I'm just curious about your motives and moral. Maybe you can also learn something from this dialogue?

Nope, she admires Sarah Palin. That should be a strong clue about the quality of the intellect of that particular poster.

[moon1969]

It sounds like a bunch of made up stories. Many muslims claim that they have seen muhammed. Should I believe the muslims?

[articulett]

millions of kids get presents under their tree each Christmas...

How can anyone deny that Santa is real?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

millions of kids get presents under their tree each Christmas...

How can anyone deny that Santa is real?

Well The Hindu Milk Miracle of September 21st 1995 is "The best documented paranormal phenomenon of modern times."

See: http://www.milkmiracle.com/ for absolute proof.

Aka Ganash the Thirsty Elephant God. :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

[arthwollipot]

Kurious Kathy: do you go to an Assemblies of God church?

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy, you're always on about "believe, believe, believe," but what about someone who would like to but cannot? I mean, it's not as though one can throw a switch and suddenly "see the light," is it? Surely you are aware that there are a large variety of people here, some of them Christians with a far more subtle and sophisticated understanding of their religion than you seem to have, and yet you dismiss them along with anyone else whose beliefs are not in lockstep with yours. Can you not see how alienating this is? Your approach keeps everyone at arm's length, and I doubt that is what you wish to accomplish. Eventually you'll probably end up on a great many ignore lists, either actually or at least figuratively. Whatever your particular church is telling you, it doesn't appear to be working.


M.
Hi Moochie, I know I am not a good debater here on jref being that I'm not one that prides myself on being an intellect as much as a realist. The reality of this world is evidence enough to me that this is certainly not what God intended his creation to be. Everyone and everything is messed up do to the fall. I can see it and I believe it. The wages for sin is death and it's everywhere. Can you deny people die? No I do not think anyone can argue that evidence, the question is why do we die?? I know it's because of sin, your quest is to know that too!

I would just like to ask you if you have ever had the privlage of listening to Revi Zacharias? He is beyond a shadow of a doubt someone who has a lot to offer as far as wisdom to the intellectual world. His ministry is called RZIM and I would really like to refer every intellect on JREF to hear this wonderful speaker. He speaks at lots of campuses around the globe so perhaps some of you professors here can contact him to try to book a presentation. O may not be the one who can answer your intellectual questions, but I am pretty confident someone like Ravi will! Blessings...KJ

[Hokulele]

Ah, so the world is so obviously messed up, the average person needs a professional speaker/presenter in order to notice it.

Got it.

[kurious_kathy]

Ah, so the world is so obviously messed up, the average person needs a professional speaker/presenter in order to notice it.

Got it.No that's not it at all. Intellects have a different mind set that needs someone on that level who can get things through to them better. If you cannot identify with someone as to the way they process info. then it's pretty difficult to relate, wouldn't you agree? I just think someone like Ravi Zacharias is what the intellects relate to as that is his backround too. He's quite intellegent and I'm sure would gain more of the JREF crowd than say someone like me who is more an emotional roller coaster.

I relate more to emotional people and people who are suffering with pain and disease because I too am plagued with such things. It's not an easy road but God has taught me to trust him in every situation. He cares far more about our character than anything else. I guess I am glad I know he uses the foolish things of man to confound the wise!

[I Ratant]

The wages of sin is death?
What sin did your kitty commit?
The lettuce in your salad?
Maybe, just maybe, death is the second most normal thing everyone/thing does after birth, living for a short while being the first?
Swifties like your "reverend" latch onto the myth that life could have been eternal, ceptin' for Adam and Eve's "fall" and scare people into believing/contributing, with the more contributing one does a sign of ever deepening faith and post-mortem "reward".
Passing on the father's sin to the children forever is just plain... sadistic!

[Moochie]

millions of kids get presents under their tree each Christmas...

How can anyone deny that Santa is real?


Hmm... We weren't wealthy when I was growing up, so "Santa" would often leave gift-wrapped clothing under the tree. Christmases were a perennial disappointment to me. :(


M.

[Hokulele]

No that's not it at all. Intellects have a different mind set that needs someone on that level who can get things through to them better. If you cannot identify with someone as to the way they process info. then it's pretty difficult to relate, wouldn't you agree? I just think someone like Ravi Zacharias is what the intellects relate to as that is his backround too. He's quite intellegent and I'm sure would gain more of the JREF crowd than say someone like me who is more an emotional roller coaster.


I absolutely disagree in the strongest terms. The whole concept of "different mind sets" is a bunch of horse pocky. Effective communication does not require intellectuals who can only speak to intellectuals or otherwise. If you think you are ineffective at communicating your message to people on this board, it may have a lot to do with your message, not your delivery.

Heck, if people here could tease out the message in the incoherence spouted by someone such as Nationalcosmopolitan, they can certainly handle the grammar challenge you present.

I relate more to emotional people and people who are suffering with pain and disease because I too am plagued with such things. It's not an easy road but God has taught me to trust him in every situation. He cares far more about our character than anything else. I guess I am glad I know he uses the foolish things of man to confound the wise!


Look, it is lovely that you found something that works for you. What you clearly fail to understand is that it doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Different people have different emotional crutches. You have not found the universal you think you have.

[calebprime]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJaiBzUVKKQ&feature=related

Ravi Zacharias an intellectual?

nope.

[kurious_kathy]

"But what if you're wrong?"

But even if you're right, do you find it wonderful to live in a reality where some god plans on damning literally billions of Catholics because they were deceived?

I submit that, on the face of it, is enough to conclude God is not a good, kind, and perfect being.

Worse, according to your theology, said kind god will damn me as well for concluding that. Well I am not saying I know all things about God, but I do know what he has revealed of himself through the scriptures, he is Holy and just. I tell you the truth it is better to agree with him than disagree with him, we don't get anywhere like that!

If Catholics would read their Bibles instead of just placing it on their nightstands or coffee tables like some kind of shrine then maybe they would see that what the Catholic popes and bishops have taught is lies mixed with a little truth. After all that is Satans favorite game, twisting scripture or adding to it. Jesus said he is the way, not some coredeemer named Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus and our sister through Christ, but catholics are guilty of making an idol of her. It's not right, can't you see that?

[kurious_kathy]

Hmm... We weren't wealthy when I was growing up, so "Santa" would often leave gift-wrapped clothing under the tree. Christmases were a perennial disappointment to me. :(


M.
I'm sorry to hear that but when it comes down to it doesn't life has tons of disappointments? I have seen many of my own dreams come to nothing and now I know I have the promise of heaven. It will take an eternity for me to do all the things I never got to enjoy in this life. All this world has promised me never came to much just huge heart aches that I needed to learn to give to God. It's kind of like peeling an onion where he reveals more truth when you seek him. I am grateful Jesus does help the inner man heal, that is something you can't see but it does go on inside me and many other believers too. We do have a peace that all need in troubled times, the peace only he can give called blessed reassurance!

[RoboTimbo]

Well I am not saying I know all things about God, but I do know what he has revealed of himself through the scriptures, he is Holy and just. I tell you the truth it is better to agree with him than disagree with him, we don't get anywhere like that!

If Catholics would read their Bibles instead of just placing it on their nightstands or coffee tables like some kind of shrine then maybe they would see that what the Catholic popes and bishops have taught is lies mixed with a little truth. After all that is Satans favorite game, twisting scripture or adding to it. Jesus said he is the way, not some coredeemer named Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus and our sister through Christ, but catholics are guilty of making an idol of her. It's not right, can't you see that?

Would my dog, Mauser the Schnauzer, be eligible to go to heaven?

[paximperium]

Well I am not saying I know all things about God, but I do know what he has revealed of himself through the scriptures, he is Holy and just.
How do you know the scriptures are true?
How do you know "he" is just?


I tell you the truth it is better to agree with him than disagree with him, we don't get anywhere like that!
Why?


If Catholics would read their Bibles instead of just placing it on their nightstands or coffee tables like some kind of shrine then maybe they would see that what the Catholic popes and bishops have taught is lies mixed with a little truth. After all that is Satans favorite game, twisting scripture or adding to it. Jesus said he is the way, not some coredeemer named Mary.
How do you know YOU are correct in your interpretation of the Bible?
Are you sure Satan hasn't tricked YOU?


Mary was the mother of Jesus and our sister through Christ, but catholics are guilty of making an idol of her. It's not right, can't you see that?
Why?

[paximperium]

I'm sorry to hear that but when it comes down to it doesn't life has tons of disappointments? I have seen many of my own dreams come to nothing and now I know I have the promise of heaven.
That is so whole heartedly sad.
So the only reason you believe is because you are disappointed in this life? Very sad indeed.


It will take an eternity for me to do all the things I never got to enjoy in this life. All this world has promised me never came to much just huge heart aches that I needed to learn to give to God. It's kind of like peeling an onion where he reveals more truth when you seek him. I am grateful Jesus does help the inner man heal, that is something you can't see but it does go on inside me and many other believers too. We do have a peace that all need in troubled times, the peace only he can give called blessed reassurance!
Very sad indeed. Your inability to see any usefulness in yourself or inner-strength may be a useful reason for your beliefs. It may be the only thing giving you comfort.

But like a drug it makes you weak and becomes nothing more than a crutch. You are intoxicated and addicted to your belief. This is one more example of the harm of your religion.

[articulett]

It is sad...

it makes you want to prop up her delusion, because it seems like it's all she has. And it's probably unfixable at this point... how long has it been since she thought an unbrainwashed thought?

But it's also sad that we should have to worry about propping up peoples' feel good illusions in real life AND on our skeptics forums. Of course, Kathy is impervious. Her faith shield is strong, and no reason is able to slip through, so I guess we needn't worry about her feelings any more than she worries about ours.

[I Ratant]

Kitty should spend more time being a better christian than listening to what Svengali tells her catholics or don't do.
It's her personal good works that earn her brownie points in heaven, not dissing others for alleged fictional abuses.

[arthwollipot]

No that's not it at all. Intellects have a different mind set that needs someone on that level who can get things through to them better. If you cannot identify with someone as to the way they process info. then it's pretty difficult to relate, wouldn't you agree?I think she just said that we're too smart to believe.

[Mashuna]

It is sad...

it makes you want to prop up her delusion, because it seems like it's all she has. And it's probably unfixable at this point... how long has it been since she thought an unbrainwashed thought?

But it's also sad that we should have to worry about propping up peoples' feel good illusions in real life AND on our skeptics forums. Of course, Kathy is impervious. Her faith shield is strong, and no reason is able to slip through, so I guess we needn't worry about her feelings any more than she worries about ours.

Very true. KK is different from say, Doc, who keeps trying to demonstrate scientific proofs of God. You've actually got something to argue against there, where you can show errors in fact, or fallacies in reasoning. With Kathy, everything is faith. She's got a stated unwillingness to even try to apply reason to her beliefs. Easier to go along with a cosy lie.

[arthwollipot]

Very true. KK is different from say, Doc, who keeps trying to demonstrate scientific proofs of God. You've actually got something to argue against there, where you can show errors in fact, or fallacies in reasoning. With Kathy, everything is faith. She's got a stated unwillingness to even try to apply reason to her beliefs. Easier to go along with a cosy lie.In a way, I have a lot more respect for that position than for Doc's. KK isn't trying to weasel out of anything, she isn't trying to justify anything, she's just saying "this is what I have faith in".

Of course, she peppers that with liberal amounts of "and you should too", which annoys the hell out of me, but I think her position is more intellectually honest than that of people who engage in backflips to try and justify themselves.

And the other thing which annoys me is the certainty. The maddening, infuriating certainty without even an inkling of doubt. This is not philosophically valid in any way at all. I posted elsewhere that one definition of "woo" was unjustified certainty.

[paximperium]

In a way, I have a lot more respect for that position than for Doc's. KK isn't trying to weasel out of anything, she isn't trying to justify anything, she's just saying "this is what I have faith in".

Of course, she peppers that with liberal amounts of "and you should too", which annoys the hell out of me, but I think her position is more intellectually honest than that of people who engage in backflips to try and justify themselves.

And the other thing which annoys me is the certainty. The maddening, infuriating certainty without even an inkling of doubt. This is not philosophically valid in any way at all. I posted elsewhere that one definition of "woo" was unjustified certainty.

I kinda agree with you there, however the issue with KK is that she is preaching. She isn't just keeping these unjustified beliefs to herself but she throws it in your face and demand you believe it. She then talks over you and ignores what you say. While this is easy enough to ignore, the condescension coming from her doesn't give me much room for sympathy just abject disgust and terror that such people exist and actually vote.

Doc and Plumjam are just hopeless. I really hope they are just trolling but unfortunately the blatant dishonesty coming from them, consistently and sometimes purposefully makes me believe that they are actual true believers who see nothing wrong with lying to support their beliefs. It is very sad.

[arthwollipot]

I kinda agree with you there, however the issue with KK is that she is preaching. She isn't just keeping these unjustified beliefs to herself but she throws it in your face and demand you believe it. She then talks over you and ignores what you say. While this is easy enough to ignore, the condescension coming from her doesn't give me much room for sympathy just abject disgust and terror that such people exist and actually vote.Oh, I'm far from disagreeing with you on that score. Having spend a couple of years of my life going to an evangelical church that put high value on "witnessing", it's one of the things that really juices my piglet. But KK just comes out and says it. She doesn't engage in discussion or argument - which is what infuriates people on this board - she doesn't try to bend scientific arguments, she just says "this is what I believe, because I believe it" end of story.

It makes me want to say "OKAY!! Enough!! We've heard all of this before - those of us who used to go to church more than we ever wanted to. We know you have faith. Please please just stop hurling it in our faces. Thank you."

[HghrSymmetry]

...I'm not one that prides myself on being an intellect as much as a realist...

Thanks Kaff, about sprayed my tea all over the screen on that one.

:D

[biomorph]

I'm sorry to hear that but when it comes down to it doesn't life has tons of disappointments?
No.



I have seen many of my own dreams come to nothing Yeah, well if that's all you did was dream, what do you expect?

and now I know I have the promise of heaven.

Unless you are wrong. Oh sorry, that's not possible is it....



It will take an eternity for me to do all the things I never got to enjoy in this life.
I suggest you get on with it then, ah, Jeebus sez No!

dump the death cult, get a life. Before it's over.....


All this world has promised me never came to much just huge heart aches that I needed to learn to give to God.


It never promised anything. You just never took the opportunities, missed the targets, made the life choices you now regret. That's faith for you.


It's kind of like peeling an onion where he reveals more truth when you seek him.



And it makes your eyes water. How come its not like peeling an orange. I think the word I'm looking for here is "fruit", not vegetable.
Just why is a banana shaped like it is?

I am grateful Jesus does help the inner man heal,

While telling women to get stuffed of course.

that is something you can't see but it does go on inside me and many other believers too. We do have a peace that all need in troubled times, the peace only he can give called blessed reassurance!

Well if you are an example of it, and yet still consider your life to be that which seems still unfulfilled, no thanx.

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus said he is the way, not some coredeemer named Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus and our sister through Christ, but catholics are guilty of making an idol of her. It's not right, can't you see that?

So what? Most Jews say that Jesus was a false prophet. Many of them would ask "Can't you see that?". The Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet of God who's message was corrupted and that it is wrong to worship him as God. Again, they would ask "Can't you see that?".

Far from convincing others on this forum with your "I don't need evidence, I just know" argument, you have instead convinced most that your's is the path of ignorance and further reinforced the value of skepticism. You have shown us that your testimonial for Christianity is no different than the testimonials of the members of any of the myriad other religions that you insist are false.

[Elizabeth I]

Hi Moochie, I know I am not a good debater here on jref being that I'm not one that prides myself on being an intellect as much as a realist.

Translation: I am wilfully ignorant to the point that it is indistinguishable from stupidity, and proud of it; therefore I'm right.

[westprog]

If Catholics would read their Bibles instead of just placing it on their nightstands or coffee tables like some kind of shrine then maybe they would see that what the Catholic popes and bishops have taught is lies mixed with a little truth. After all that is Satans favorite game, twisting scripture or adding to it. Jesus said he is the way, not some coredeemer named Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus and our sister through Christ, but catholics are guilty of making an idol of her. It's not right, can't you see that?


And of course, Jesus never told anyone that The Bible was the way. Bible worship is a major heresy within Protestantism. (From the Catholic pov, of course).

The claim that Mary is believed to be a coredeemer as part of Catholic faith is simply wrong. There is a strong subdivision of Catholicism which does believe this, and they have been pressurising the Vatican to make it part of Catholic dogma. However, it isn't. It it was part of Catholic dogma, then they wouldn't need to be sending in petitions, would they?


I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand ... within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix‿ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it becomes his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being “with" is realized in her in exemplary fashion.

But this “with‿ must not lead us to forget the “first" of Christ: Everything comes from Him, as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him.

The word “Co-redemptrix," would obscure this… For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.


I've noted before the tendency among some atheists to tell Christians what they should be believing. It's clearly not restricted to them.

[Nursefoxfire]

Would my dog, Mauser the Schnauzer, be eligible to go to heaven?

He'd be welcome in my heaven! If he's the dog in your avatar, he's adorable!

[slingblade]

I see what you're all doing there.


It won't work.

You can't instigate engagement with Kathy. You can't reason, explain, tease, taunt, sneer, puzzle, or otherwise push the buttons that will encourage her to stop preaching and start thinking. It's been tried, and by many. No matter what you say, she either doesn't respond, or comes back with "my life was mired in sin and was horrible, until I found Jesus and it got a lot better. You ought to be believers too." Full stop.

Plumjam, at least, pretends to engage. Most of what he says, he doesn't believe. He will weigh his audience, say whatever he judges to be most likely to push buttons, and off he goes. As long as you go with him, he's entertained.

Doc aspires to intellectualism, but his arguments fail. His seem to be more of the "if I can prove Christianity is valid, these atheists will simply have to give up and convert." He loves arguments from authority, because he loves authority. He's fond of the "since you guys love science, here's a scientist who's also Christian. Scientists are smart, so if he's also a Christian, being Christian must be the smart thing for you to do" method of thought.

I'm not sure about Plum, but I know Doc and Kathy are head-hunting. If they could convert one atheist/agnostic here to religion, they would count it a win for their side. Because they are here with an agenda, and a goal to win, there will be no "utterance of reason from one of us, which will inspire a flash of clarity." It doesn't matter how we argue or what we say; they can't be diverted.

Thus, it's my opinion that DOC and Kathy need to be ignored utterly.

With Plum, though, it's fun to pick up a stick just like his and have a pretend sword-fight. Hey, at least he gives as good as he gets, as far as entertainment value. :p

[RoboTimbo]

He'd be welcome in my heaven! If he's the dog in your avatar, he's adorable!

You are so going on my friends list.

[paximperium]

Thus, it's my opinion that DOC and Kathy need to be ignored utterly.
To a degree. I enjoy dismantling their arguments. For DOC, he squirms, ignores it and tries to go off into a tangent. The problem with a forum like this, is that WE allow him to run away.


With Plum, though, it's fun to pick up a stick just like his and have a pretend sword-fight. Hey, at least he gives as good as he gets, as far as entertainment value. :p
I disagree. I don't play his game, I don't pretend to laugh at his attempt at humor.

I tear his arguments apart and he falls into classic technique of "lying, lying, caught for lying, claim I'm making things up, lying, claim I'm being mean, lying, whine, whine, and then run away." Unlike others who have told me "Don't be mean to him. He's a nice guy and is fun." I don't play his dishonest little game. He butters people up. He acts nice. It is a tactic, nothing more.

I'm likely on his ignore list.

[Freethinker]

Hmm... We weren't wealthy when I was growing up, so "Santa" would often leave gift-wrapped clothing under the tree. Christmases were a perennial disappointment to me. :(


M.

That's because you were born with sin and you didn't do all the magic stuff to appease Santa Claus. Oh, wait. It's Jesus who punishes us for the sins of some people who never existed.

I'm glad Kathy is posting again. I feel that nothing anyone says could convince people how ridiculous it is to believe in god better than Kathy's arguments that it does exist.

[paximperium]

You are so going on my friends list.

Please do your dog flirting in a non-public forum...perhaps a non-discrete chat room.:p

[Nursefoxfire]

Please do your dog flirting in a non-public forum...perhaps a non-discrete chat room.:p

So... a connected chat-room then? :-P

Besides, dog-flirting is a well-loved practice by all sorts of lonely people at dog-parks, sheesh!

[RoboTimbo]

Please do your dog flirting in a non-public forum...perhaps a non-discrete chat room.:p


Mauser was just biding his time while waiting for a reply from KK. So if you look at it as being taken out of context, it was on-topic. I still want to know if Kathy will allow Mauser into her heaven. From the gist of other posters, it looks like we might be waiting for an answer in vain.

[paximperium]

Mauser was just biding his time while waiting for a reply from KK. So if you look at it as being taken out of context, it was on-topic. I still want to know if Kathy will allow Mauser into her heaven. From the gist of other posters, it looks like we might be waiting for an answer in vain.

The dog-flirting is inappropriate...it is making me uncomfortable.
Ignobel my Golden Retriever and Tarantula the attack cat disapproves.

[RoboTimbo]

The dog-flirting is inappropriate...it is making me uncomfortable.
Ignobel my Golden Retriever and Tarantula the attack cat disapproves.


I had Pita the attack cat. RIP. I wonder if he's in heaven?

[HghrSymmetry]

I see what you're all doing there.


It won't work.

You can't instigate engagement with Kathy. You can't reason, explain, tease, taunt, sneer, puzzle, or otherwise push the buttons that will encourage her to stop preaching and start thinking. It's been tried, and by many. No matter what you say, she either doesn't respond, or comes back with "my life was mired in sin and was horrible, until I found Jesus and it got a lot better. You ought to be believers too." Full stop.


I would guess most people are aware of that. The T-i's, Ed-e's, R-d's, and Kaff's are too far gone for any type of rational discussion. In fact, they've proven they are.
When we answer and or engage them, most probably don't expect much of a coherent response...it's more for the other posters benefit rather than theirs.

Most realize that getting a point across to them is synonymous with pissing on an electric fence. Yet, if we can even mildly entertain others with our posts, I consider it at least partially worthwhile in an entertainment sense.

Just look at the price of movies now-a-days. Heck, even rentals aren't all that cheap.
And hey, if we have a little time to burn, and we have an Internet connection anyway...what the heck...no harm done.

[Nogbad]

To a degree. I enjoy dismantling their arguments. For DOC, he squirms, ignores it and tries to go off into a tangent. The problem with a forum like this, is that WE allow him to run away.


I disagree. I don't play his game, I don't pretend to laugh at his attempt at humor.

I tear his arguments apart and he falls into classic technique of "lying, lying, caught for lying, claim I'm making things up, lying, claim I'm being mean, lying, whine, whine, and then run away." Unlike others who have told me "Don't be mean to him. He's a nice guy and is fun." I don't play his dishonest little game. He butters people up. He acts nice. It is a tactic, nothing more.

I'm likely on his ignore list.

That seems a tad harsh - PJ has made me laugh on more than one occasion - no idea which religion he favours though. I have a vague inkling it is something eastern - Buddhism?

[Moochie]

I see what you're all doing there.


It won't work.

You can't instigate engagement with Kathy. You can't reason, explain, tease, taunt, sneer, puzzle, or otherwise push the buttons that will encourage her to stop preaching and start thinking. It's been tried, and by many. No matter what you say, she either doesn't respond, or comes back with "my life was mired in sin and was horrible, until I found Jesus and it got a lot better. You ought to be believers too." Full stop.

Plumjam, at least, pretends to engage. Most of what he says, he doesn't believe. He will weigh his audience, say whatever he judges to be most likely to push buttons, and off he goes. As long as you go with him, he's entertained.

Doc aspires to intellectualism, but his arguments fail. His seem to be more of the "if I can prove Christianity is valid, these atheists will simply have to give up and convert." He loves arguments from authority, because he loves authority. He's fond of the "since you guys love science, here's a scientist who's also Christian. Scientists are smart, so if he's also a Christian, being Christian must be the smart thing for you to do" method of thought.

I'm not sure about Plum, but I know Doc and Kathy are head-hunting. If they could convert one atheist/agnostic here to religion, they would count it a win for their side. Because they are here with an agenda, and a goal to win, there will be no "utterance of reason from one of us, which will inspire a flash of clarity." It doesn't matter how we argue or what we say; they can't be diverted.

Thus, it's my opinion that DOC and Kathy need to be ignored utterly.

With Plum, though, it's fun to pick up a stick just like his and have a pretend sword-fight. Hey, at least he gives as good as he gets, as far as entertainment value. :p

I think I'd have to agree with most of that. It's awfully hard to have a conversation with someone who continuously speaks over you or around you -- I should know, both of my parents were very much like that. And I've since come to see that method of non-talk as a smokescreen that masks fear, not certainty.


M.

[MarkCorrigan]

That seems a tad harsh - PJ has made me laugh on more than one occasion - no idea which religion he favours though. I have a vague inkling it is something eastern - Buddhism?

Oh hells no, he's a Christian creationist.

[Nursefoxfire]

...
You can't instigate engagement with Kathy. You can't reason, explain, tease, taunt, sneer, puzzle, or otherwise push the buttons that will encourage her to stop preaching and start thinking.
...


Wow, I thought you were talking about the Terminator for a second!

Kyle Reese: Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

[Nogbad]

Oh hells no, he's a Christian creationist.

Sorry but it has to be done


http://files.myopera.com/drlaunch/albums/37656/no-wai001.jpg

[paximperium]

Oh hells no, he's a Christian creationist.

Actually, we do not know. Since he lies so much, he has claimed that isn't a Creationist but supports Creationism; he claims he is a ID-iot but uses various Creationists propaganda.

He has also denied being Christian before and tries to sound New Age-ey with vague "peace" and "Creator" woo words and yet, he often comes out in support of Christian claims.

Personally, don't know, don't care. He spouts BS and deserves no respect and only disdain.

[Hokulele]

Um, can we stop talking about specific posters (maybe start a thread in Community) and their foibles and return to Fatima? Sorry, I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but Ichneumonwasp has made some good points and I am interested in responses to them.


ETA: Crap. It was the other thread currently discussing Fatima where IW made his posts. My bad. Ignore the woman behind the curtain and carry on.

[Nogbad]

Um, can we stop talking about specific posters (maybe start a thread in Community) and their foibles and return to Fatima? Sorry, I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but Ichneumonwasp has made some good points and I am interested in responses to them.


ETA: Crap. It was the other thread currently discussing Fatima where IW made his posts. My bad. Ignore the woman behind the curtain and carry on.

:( I just searched the whole thread

D'oh!

Actually, Kathy does have a minor point. Isis was "Queen of Heaven" she was also Stella Maris or "Star of the Sea" and "Mother of the Gods" and a very popular deity in Rome by the time Christianity came along. When it became illegal to be a Pagan many of Isis' temples were converted to Churches dedicated to Mary "Queen of Heaven" "Mother of God" and for some reason "Star of the Sea".

[slingblade]

Whatever. My giveacrap is rapidly dwindling. Carry on, at least you're all having fun or something.

[articulett]

Actually, we do not know. Since he lies so much, he has claimed that isn't a Creationist but supports Creationism; he claims he is a ID-iot but uses various Creationists propaganda.

He has also denied being Christian before and tries to sound New Age-ey with vague "peace" and "Creator" woo words and yet, he often comes out in support of Christian claims.

Personally, don't know, don't care. He spouts BS and deserves no respect and only disdain.

He's a follower of Meher Baba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba and a creationist-- I know, I know.... after a while all the woo sound the same.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Sorry but it has to be done


http://files.myopera.com/drlaunch/albums/37656/no-wai001.jpg

That's the ugliest kitten I have ever seen. :cool:

[SimonD]

He's a follower of Meher Baba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba and a creationist-- I know, I know.... after a while all the woo sound the same.

I liked this bit the best


On February 10, 1954, Meher Baba declared that he was the Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar) (an incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation) of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God)).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba#cite_note-7)
After suffering as a passenger in two automobile accidents, one in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) in 1952 and one in India in 1956, his capacity to walk became seriously limited

Not much good being a god if you can't stop a car crash. Or maybe the other gods didn't like this upstart :)

[biomorph]

Not much good being a god if you can't stop a car crash. Or maybe the other gods didn't like this upstart :)

I've got a piece of skimpy attire that seems to contribute to car crashes, does that qualify me as an avatar?:p

[Foster Zygote]

I liked this bit the best



Not much good being a god if you can't stop a car crash. Or maybe the other gods didn't like this upstart :)

Some witnesses reported that the other car's license plate read "YWVH".

[RoboTimbo]

Kurious Kathy,

I ask you again, would my dog Mauser the Schnauzer be eligible for heaven?

[arthwollipot]

...nope, she's gone again.

[kurious_kathy]

Whatever. My giveacrap is rapidly dwindling. Carry on, at least you're all having fun or something.
Hi Sling, I know you don't see things through the eyes of faith like I do anymore but can I just ask why you seem so down? Do you still believe in love?

[kurious_kathy]

Kurious Kathy,

I ask you again, would my dog Mauser the Schnauzer be eligible for heaven?

I would have to say there is a real possibility of that!

[arthwollipot]

EEeyeyyaaaa!!

Sorry, you startled me. I thought you'd gone.

[kurious_kathy]

PLEASE, Kathy, I'm interested! Genuinely! You started this thread because of a film you saw.

Not answering the question leads me to the conclusion that you don't give a damn. Is that so?

I'm not one to bash anybody, I'm just curious about your motives and moral. Maybe you can also learn something from this dialogue?
The people who made this documentary are not hiding from anyone and I am sure if you want to inquire of them more they would be more than happy to give you their research and interview notes. Many were interviewed for that film and it is not a hoax!

[kurious_kathy]

Just because you think you are saved, doesn't mean you are.
I am absolutely confident in my salvation and that no one can snatch me out of his hand, but I do question where my place in heaven will be?

[Mashuna]

I am absolutely confident in my salvation and that no one can snatch me out of his hand, but I do question where my place in heaven will be?

Just because you think you are saved, doesn't mean that you are.

[arthwollipot]

I am absolutely confident in my salvation and that no one can snatch me out of his hand, but I do question where my place in heaven will be?Yes, but what if you're wrong?

[wollery]

The people who made this documentary are not hiding from anyone and I am sure if you want to inquire of them more they would be more than happy to give you their research and interview notes. Many were interviewed for that film and it is not a hoax!It isn't a documentary. :rolleyes:

[paximperium]

The people who made this documentary are not hiding from anyone and I am sure if you want to inquire of them more they would be more than happy to give you their research and interview notes. Many were interviewed for that film and it is not a hoax!

How do you know? Did you ask them? Did you actually double check their claims?

If you didn't, why didn't you?

[paximperium]

I am absolutely confident in my salvation and that no one can snatch me out of his hand, but I do question where my place in heaven will be?

Are you sure?
Maybe Satan just wants you to feel confident,no, arrogant about your "salvation" that you would flaunt it?..my my such pride.

[CriticalSock]

I've got a piece of skimpy attire that seems to contribute to car crashes, does that qualify me as an avatar?:p

Evidence?

[RoboTimbo]

I would have to say there is a real possibility of that!

But he has no way to accept Jesus as his savior so how can he be admitted to heaven? So, do all animals just get a free pass?

I won't ask about my cat, Pita. I'm pretty sure he was beyond salvation.

[Moochie]

Can't say I'm looking forward to a future residence in heaven, whether fantasy or not. I'd trade my place in the queue for a decent wide-screen TV, and a top-of-the-line gaming PC in the here and now anytime. And no, I'm not being facetious.

Also, in my opinion any evangelicals who are happily despoiling the planet because they feel assured of a place in "heaven" when the manure hits the fan are in for a very rude awakening. If you can't look after your home while here, now, what makes you think you'll have any success in a place for which there is not a shred of evidence? All you are doing is playing into the hands of some extremely greedy, amoral people who have found a cogent method for controlling others to do their bidding; i.e., rape and pillage the planet so that they can amass untold fortunes here and now, while promising you a place in a fictional "heaven." Your fantasy of the "end-times" and so-called "rapture" is in fact a self-fulfilling prophecy.


M.

[RoboTimbo]

Can't say I'm looking forward to a future residence in heaven, whether fantasy or not. I'd trade my place in the queue for a decent wide-screen TV, and a top-of-the-line gaming PC in the here and now anytime. And no, I'm not being facetious.

Also, in my opinion any evangelicals who are happily despoiling the planet because they feel assured of a place in "heaven" when the manure hits the fan are in for a very rude awakening. If you can't look after your home while here, now, what make you think you'll have any success in a place for which there is not a shred of evidence? All you are doing is playing into the hands of some extremely greedy, amoral people who have found a cogent method for controlling others to do their bidding; i.e., rape and pillage the planet so that they can amass untold fortunes here and now, while promising you a place in a fictional "heaven." Your fantasy of the "end-times" and so-called "rapture" is in fact a self-fulfilling prophecy.


M.


And hey, no offense against cats in general.

[Moochie]

And hey, no offense against cats in general.

Thanks. Kitty is already becoming militant about the impending council regulations about cat curfews. He's already contacted the ACLU (Australian Cat Liberty Union) regarding this most egregious curtailing of his freedom of movement.


M.

[I Ratant]

I am absolutely confident in my salvation and that no one can snatch me out of his hand, but I do question where my place in heaven will be?
.
Those dod-rotted mackeral snapping Catholics feel you have to work and earn right up to your last day to have a -chance- at getting your wings and harp.
No "believe now and be saved in 35 years".
Makes attaining the goal just bit harder, than sitting back and smirking about "being saved", no further effort required.
Your place in "heaven" will be right next all the rest of us... after some time passes, just a bunch of disassociated minerals and elements making up the world's compost.
What you SHOULD be striving for is to be remembered with fondness and love by those who survive you by living a life worth remembering, not shouting at everyone from the street corners that -you're- saved and they aren't.
The only memory that leaves is a vague rememberance of some nutcase way back when.

[Elizabeth I]

In my opinion, the best argument for avoiding heaven is that, if she's right, it will be filled with people like KK.

Can you imagine eternity with an infinite number of ignoramuses all talking just like her?

[HghrSymmetry]

In my opinion, the best argument for avoiding heaven is that, if she's right, it will be filled with people like KK.

Can you imagine eternity with an infinite number of ignoramuses all talking just like her?


Sounds a bit more like a description of hell.

[slingblade]

Hi Sling, I know you don't see things through the eyes of faith like I do anymore but can I just ask why you seem so down?

No. Don't derail the thread.

[biomorph]

I've got a piece of skimpy attire that seems to contribute to car crashes, does that qualify me as an avatar?

Evidence?

Well cars do crash, all over the world.

I do have some skimpy attire in my collection somewhere.......

You just gotta have faith baby :p:p

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I;
In my opinion, the best argument for avoiding heaven is that, if she's right, it will be filled with people like KK.

Can you imagine eternity with an infinite number of ignoramuses all talking just like her?


Sounds a bit more like a description of hell.
.
They won't know it.
Hell is where all the interesting people will be!

[Foster Zygote]

.
They won't know it.
Hell is where all the interesting people will be!

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.

Mark Twain

[slingblade]

Wow, it's a good thing I was scolded for derailing the thread from its more interesting topic.


...um, what was it, again?

[HghrSymmetry]

Something about a mass sighting of Isis or some other later rendition.