Karen Sellers - telekinesis

[Pup]

Don't see a thread on this, so I might as well start one, mentioning some of the obvious things.

Even on a sidewalk, is it possible the rumble of traffic could affect the key? Easy enough to tell by watching it as traffic goes by.

Checking for magnets or using a non-ferrous key.

If it's outdoors, might be helpful to have a grid or some obvious reference point attached to the jar behind the key, from the camera's point of view, so something in the background doesn't give any chance for an illusion of movement, if the clear sides of the jar don't photograph perfectly due to lighting or whatever. "See, it moved in relationship to those weeds!" "You mean the ones blowing in the breeze?" "There was no breeze."

And it goes without saying that "touch the surface that the jar is sitting on" doesn't include jumping up and down inches from it with all your might, but I'll say it anyway. :-)

[sthomson]

I thought the sidewalk suggestion was a bad idea - a warehouse with concrete floors would be much better. Heck, lots of houses have concrete floors on their basements.

[Crossbow]

If one is concerned about Karen Sellers moving the key through vibrations (like a stomping foot, people walking around, etc.) then I suggest that the test platform be made of a large, stone block that is sitting on top of an inner tube that is somewhat filled with air.

This sort of device is used for making holograms which are very, very, very sensitive to vibrations.

[ben m]

If one is concerned about Karen Sellers moving the key through vibrations (like a stomping foot, people walking around, etc.) then I suggest that the test platform be made of a large, stone block that is sitting on top of an inner tube that is somewhat filled with air.

This sort of device is used for making holograms which are very, very, very sensitive to vibrations.

Those platforms the work surface from seismic noise. But you can move the platforms themselves (very easily, in fact) with the touch of a finger. It'd be fine if Sellers was touching the ground and the tube/block/jar were nearby, but I bet she wants to touch the block.

A sidewalk or concrete slab should be fine as long as the protocol forbids her from jumping or pounding.

[Dutchman]

Why oh why is a telekinesis demonstration always with a light object on a string, that moves with every random vibration?
I would just love to see a telekinizer saying "Hey, here we have this coffee mug, paper weight or whatever. I will move it one foot up, three feet sideways and back down again". Now that would be cool and amazing.
Not holding my breath though...

[William Smith]

Why oh why is a telekinesis demonstration always with a light object on a string, that moves with every random vibration?
I would just love to see a telekinizer saying "Hey, here we have this coffee mug, paper weight or whatever. I will move it one foot up, three feet sideways and back down again". Now that would be cool and amazing.
Not holding my breath though...

It is because the presence of skeptics all over the world limits their powers. Duh.

[Cuddles]

The easiest way to avoid problems with vibrations would be to specify the object to swing in a certain direction. Natural vibrations, or ones induced by stamping on the floor or whatever, would make it swing randomly. If she can make it swing in chosen direction better than 50% of the time, it can't be just by wobbling the jar. This is similar to the person who claimed to be able to move a candle flame - they move by themselves all the time, but getting it to move in the right direction proved impossible.

[RemieV]

The easiest way to avoid problems with vibrations would be to specify the object to swing in a certain direction. Natural vibrations, or ones induced by stamping on the floor or whatever, would make it swing randomly. If she can make it swing in chosen direction better than 50% of the time, it can't be just by wobbling the jar. This is similar to the person who claimed to be able to move a candle flame - they move by themselves all the time, but getting it to move in the right direction proved impossible.


That stipulation is in the protocol rough draft ;)

[Crossbow]

Those platforms the work surface from seismic noise. But you can move the platforms themselves (very easily, in fact) with the touch of a finger. It'd be fine if Sellers was touching the ground and the tube/block/jar were nearby, but I bet she wants to touch the block.

A sidewalk or concrete slab should be fine as long as the protocol forbids her from jumping or pounding.

The protocol does not allow her to touch the jar.

By the same token, I would expect that she would not be allowed to touch the platform that the jar is sitting on.

[Crossbow]

Double-post.

Sorry about that!

[RemieV]

The protocol does not allow her to touch the jar.

By the same token, I would expect that she would not be allowed to touch the platform that the jar is sitting on.

She has to touch the surface the jar is sitting on in order for her powers to work.

[Crossbow]

She has to touch the surface the jar is sitting on in order for her powers to work.

Are you sure that is a good idea?

It sounds like it would be quite easy for her to physically shake or push the surface that the jar is sitting on and getting to the key to move this way instead of by telekinesis.

[jojonete]

She has to touch the surface the jar is sitting on in order for her powers to work.Are you sure that is a good idea?

It sounds like it would be quite easy for her to physically shake or push the surface that the jar is sitting on and getting to the key to move this way instead of by telekinesis.
That's exactly the reason for the requirement of the jar being on the ground, on a concrete surface.

As ben m said:
A sidewalk or concrete slab should be fine as long as the protocol forbids her from jumping or pounding.

[Crossbow]

That's exactly the reason for the requirement of the jar being on the ground, on a concrete surface.

As ben m said:

I have to admit that I am still a bit concerned about cheating.

Even a sidewalk can pick up vibrations from traffic rolling around nearby, heavy machinery, etc. And if the sidewalk is not in good contact with the ground, then one can shift it a bit just by walking or pressing on it.

What might be better is a large sidewalk in park that it widely separated from a road and other structures.

[sthomson]

What might be better is a large sidewalk in park that it widely separated from a road and other structures.

And I don't really like sidewalks at all because they're often not very smooth, and they're meant to be a bit bouncy - it's a different mix of concrete than for smooth concrete floors, like in warehouses or basements.

[Crossbow]

And I don't really like sidewalks at all because they're often not very smooth, and they're meant to be a bit bouncy - it's a different mix of concrete than for smooth concrete floors, like in warehouses or basements.

Sorry, but that is not entirely right.

True, concrete is mixed and made in various ways for various purposes, but there is no such thing as a 'bouncy' concrete.

Instead, it sounds like the footing may be a bit bouncy, but not the concrete itself.

Never the less, it does show that one should carefully examine the concrete in question in advance of the test just to make sure that it is firmly fixed into position.

[Worm]

I'm not sure about the condition for success.

'move the key in a consistent motion'

that seems pretty vague to me. What constitutes 'consistent motion' ?

[LazyPint]

I'm not sure about the condition for success.

'move the key in a consistent motion'

that seems pretty vague to me. What constitutes 'consistent motion' ?

Surely it means in a circular manner for long enough without it swinging back and forth or spinning on the spot?

From the sound of the test, any motion in an airtight jar would be pretty special. But I understand it has to be circular since that's what Karen Sellers claims to be able to do.

I just hope the superglue holding the wire in the jar doesn't break. Or snap, whatever superglue does when it's had enough.

[Random]

Don’t think she will respond. Sounds like she has a modified table tipper act, using very minor shifting of a table to build up a sympathetic vibration on the key in the jar, hence the circular motion and "touching the surface the jar is resting on". Stipulating that the jar will be placed on the ground should inform her quickly that the JREF are onto that scam, unless she is doing it subconsciously and doesn’t realize it.

[Ryan O'Dine]

A couple kinda stupid thoughts from the peanut gallery...

1. Consider a monochromatic key of a single construction/substance (yes, I own multi-colored, multi-substance keys). If the test is outside or near a window, differential heating in sunlight could move a delicately balanced pendulum... maybe.

2. If you have access to local seismographic data, even in an area not known for such activity, it might be worth having a record.

Hey -- I did say stupid.

Oh, and I second Pup’s non-stupid advice of using a non-ferrous key. I’d be surprised if even a strip search could cover all the possibilities of magnet hiding.

[latent aaaack]

Did Karen satisfy the media presence and academic witness requirement? If so where can more info on her be found?

[Pope130]

I've just read the proposed protocol, which looks good. I have some suggestions.

Use a brass key. No question of a hidden magnet being used.

Set the jar to the concrete using putty. This will preclude any rocking of the jar or 'accidental' displacement by a brushing contact.

For the surface you might look for a cement floored aircraft hanger. Solid floor, out of the weather in a controllable area.

HTH

Robert

[Bellman]

Several people have mentioned using different types of key, but I feel compelled to ask: Why use a key at all?

Surely there are better things to use - like a stone or a conker, or something natural that has the rough same weight with none of the worry of magnetism or 'sunlight warping it and making it rock', or what have you.

Why does it always have to be a key?

[William Smith]

Several people have mentioned using different types of key, but I feel compelled to ask: Why use a key at all?

Surely there are better things to use - like a stone or a conker, or something natural that has the rough same weight with none of the worry of magnetism or 'sunlight warping it and making it rock', or what have you.

Why does it always have to be a key?

Welcome to the forum, Bellman.

The protocol is designed to meet the described ability. Randi says: "If you claim to be able to play the violin, we won't make you play the piano." Hence the key on a string.



If I had to guess about the reason for her application, I'd go with the intent to cheat. (No offense intended, Ms. Sellers.) My second guess would be that the applicant fell for some self-deception. A distant third is the thought that she's a few prawns short of a universe.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Had another thought overnight.

If you could set up one or more duplicate jar/key arrangements placed outside her range, but otherwise in as close to the same conditions as the test jar, you’d have a kind of control. Put time-synced cameras on everything, and compare any movements afterward.

No more seismographic or traffic problems.

[Olowkow]

Oh, and be sure there are no elephant herds within 30 miles or so...they communicate via infrasound.

[Gr8wight]

What I don't see in the protocol is the number of attempts that will comprise a complete test, and the number of successful attempts that will comprise a successful test. Also, I do not see the stipulation that a direction of spin (clockwise or counter-clockwise) will be chosen at random prior to each attempt, and that the direction of spin acheived must match the direction of spin chosen for an attempt to be deemed successful.

[Crossbow]

I've just read the proposed protocol, which looks good. I have some suggestions.

Use a brass key. No question of a hidden magnet being used.

Set the jar to the concrete using putty. This will preclude any rocking of the jar or 'accidental' displacement by a brushing contact.

For the surface you might look for a cement floored aircraft hanger. Solid floor, out of the weather in a controllable area.

HTH

Robert

Great ideas!

:)

Non-magnetic key and aircraft hanger. Since the concrete at airports is often about three feet thick that should eliminate the possibilty of her shifting it about. And provided that the weather is not too windy and there are not airplanes rolling about nearby, then that should eliminate any normally vibrations from occurring.

[hellaeon]

Ok, why not set up the key in a jar in a sound booth or in a music studio room? They are commonly built to remove sound and any kind of vibration or influence in the desired result.

She could still see the jar and hell, have it lean on the glass.

[RemieV]

No response from Ms. Sellers so far.

[Father Dagon]

What good is a special ability if you only can move a key? Come on when some one has Sylar-strength telekinesis (the gore can be left out from the demonstration.)

[hellaeon]

What good is a special ability if you only can move a key? Come on when some one has Sylar-strength telekinesis (the gore can be left out from the demonstration.)


See you dont understand.

Why do you think luke had to travel to Dagobah in Episode 4? You dont just have these powers without training hard - starting with keys on strings, you can work your way up to real world application like moving rebel star fighters out of swamps.

[Father Dagon]

See you dont understand.

Why do you think luke had to travel to Dagobah in Episode 4? You dont just have these powers without training hard - starting with keys on strings, you can work your way up to real world application like moving rebel star fighters out of swamps.Yeah, but did Luke leave Yoda just after being able to move little pebbles?

Sellers is like Geller, only demonstrating sissy powers. If I was Geller and if the powers was real, I would train my powers until I could bend I-beams and not a minute earlier.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yeah, but did Luke leave Yoda just after being able to move little pebbles?

Sellers is like Geller, only demonstrating sissy powers. If I was Geller and if the powers was real, I would train my powers until I could bend I-beams and not a minute earlier.

Sure. Sure. And then the Twoothers would blame you for bringing down the WTC towers. :D

[William Smith]

Another applicant fallen silent in the face of a controlled test?

[saizai]

Suggestions:

1. Nonmagnetic key. Add testing with a strong magnet in addition to the fan test.
2. Large key. Go for one of those big ol' 13th century things. More stable.
3. Specify exactly how far from center it has to be on the spin. Put a calibrated paper w/ concentric circles at the bottom of the glass, have the key reach to just barely above it. Then it'll be easy to tell how far it is from center. Check alignment with center as part of setup.
4. (Optional) Have a glass-in-glass design - the outer one being open at the bottom (like those things for holding cheese - the top part's a glass bell). Then she could touch the outer bell without disturbing the inner one. Might feel better.
5. Major tweak: Instead of requiring her to specify a direction (maybe that's an advanced skill?), just have her move it at all. Compare to an identical control setup - she picks which one is the control - that's outside her range. Video both of 'em. Success is if the two setups differ in behavior (e.g. swing vs no swing in a specified 5-minute period, over 20 or so such periods) to a statistically significant degree. Pro: Would detect any deviation caused, not require her to pick a direction; Con: More complex setup & oh noes teh math.