[Split]Fireballs and their causes (split from: The Keymaster's latest)

[Slayhamlet]

Why? I never contested he described a fireball. For some reason you guys concluded the fireball had to be from jetfuel.

That's the subtlety you seem to be missing.

What caused the fireball, Red?

[cmcaulif]

Why? I never contested he described a fireball. For some reason you guys concluded the fireball had to be from jetfuel.

That's the subtlety you seem to be missing.

Explosives, when triggered go through the process of detonation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation), thats supersonic combustion, and its completely different from deflagration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration), which is subsonic combustion, like jet fuel burning. Not to mention that his testimony is used to assert that bombs were in the lobby or basement, in which case the fireball would be coming upwards rather than down, as you can see from this somewhat extreme example (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4452446280451377882)

[CHF]

Why? I never contested he described a fireball. For some reason you guys concluded the fireball had to be from jetfuel.

When in reality was a fireball from a demolition charge :rolleyes:

[RedIbis]

When in reality was a fireball from a demolition charge :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was. I'm not the one making assumptions here. There is a theory floating around that the jetfuel slowly descended the amazingly unobstructed elevator shaft to explode some 80 floors below the impact zone and suddenly combust, possibly multiple times, several minutes after the plane crashed into the bldg.

[CHF]

I didn't say it was. I'm not the one making assumptions here. There is a theory floating around that the jetfuel slowly descended the amazingly unobstructed elevator shaft to explode some 80 floors below the impact zone and suddenly combust, possibly multiple times, several minutes after the plane crashed into the bldg.

Bizarre, I know.

Just like how the lobby of the Empire State Building was blown out in 1945 after a B-25 struck the 79th floor.

I wonder if that was a demolition job to.

[RedIbis]

Bizarre, I know.

Just like how the lobby of the Empire State Building was blown out in 1945 after a B-25 struck the 79th floor.

I wonder if that was a demolition job to.

Please post the source for the report that the lobby was "blown out" from the B-25 crash.

[Slayhamlet]

I didn't say it was. I'm not the one making assumptions here. There is a theory floating around that the jetfuel slowly descended the amazingly unobstructed elevator shaft to explode some 80 floors below the impact zone and suddenly combust, possibly multiple times, several minutes after the plane crashed into the bldg.

What caused the fireball, Red?

[RedIbis]

What caused the fireball, Red?

Why do you keep asking me to speculate? I'm pointing out the assumption that the fireball Rodriguez describes was jetfuel.

[CHF]

Please post the source for the report that the lobby was "blown out" from the B-25 crash.

Popular Mechanics book.

It even has a picture of the blackened lobby.

Why do you keep asking me to speculate? I'm pointing out the assumption that the fireball Rodriguez describes was jetfuel.

Wanna know what's really ironic? Willy smelled JET FUEL at the time of his "basement bomb."

God only knows what kind of bomb that would have been.

[Slayhamlet]

Bizarre, I know.

Just like how the lobby of the Empire State Building was blown out in 1945 after a B-25 struck the 79th floor.

I wonder if that was a demolition job to.

Really? I would think a B-25 wouldn't have nearly enough fuel on board for it to reach that far down. A Boeing 767 has something like over 30 times the fuel capacity of a B-25, IIRC.

[CHF]

Really? I would think a B-25 wouldn't have nearly enough fuel on board for it to reach that far down. A Boeing 767 has something like over 30 times the fuel capacity of a B-25, IIRC.

I don't think it was the fuel alone.

IIRC, a piece of flaming debris crashed down the elevator shaft, which blew out the lobby.

[R.Mackey]

Explosives, when triggered go through the process of detonation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation), thats supersonic combustion, and its completely different from deflagration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration), which is subsonic combustion, like jet fuel burning. Not to mention that his testimony is used to assert that bombs were in the lobby or basement, in which case the fireball would be coming upwards rather than down, as you can see from this somewhat extreme example (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4452446280451377882)

Yup.

Additionally, the energy density of jet fuel is about four to ten times that of explosives. That means a kilo of jet fuel heats up way more air than a kilo of C4, for instance.

So to get actual visible fireballs from explosives, you need surprisingly large explosives. Yet, strangely, these explosives failed to kill those nearby, leaving them burned instead...

Ah, physics, nemesis of conspiracy theorists -- have you no heart? :D

[Jonnyclueless]

Yup.

Additionally, the energy density of jet fuel is about four to ten times that of explosives. That means a kilo of jet fuel heats up way more air than a kilo of C4, for instance.

So to get actual visible fireballs from explosives, you need surprisingly large explosives. Yet, strangely, these explosives failed to kill those nearby, leaving them burned instead...

Ah, physics, nemesis of conspiracy theorists -- have you no heart? :D


But does that hold true if someone has a watch? Somehow a watch seems to make a difference.

[quixotecoyote]

But does that hold true if someone has a watch? Somehow a watch seems to make a difference.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f253/quixotecoyote/oneoffs/WatchAnimation.gif

You are getting sleepy.

Embrace the woo. The woo is your friend. The woo knows how important you are. The woo loves you. The woo will never hurt you like all the others. Embrace the woo.

[R.Mackey]

I think so.

I have heard of a watch; I believe that was the original question.


ETA: Zzzzzzz...

[leftysergeant]

I didn't say it was. I'm not the one making assumptions here. There is a theory floating around that the jetfuel slowly descended the amazingly unobstructed elevator shaft to explode some 80 floors below the impact zone and suddenly combust, possibly multiple times, several minutes after the plane crashed into the bldg.

Actually, it was driven down the express elevator shafts and utilities shafts. And yes, it could have caused multiple explosions, if it is driven into multiople locations where it has to wait for a source of ignition or air. If it is hot enough, all it needs is air.

The basic concept is called "backdraft."

[Jonnyclueless]

I used to think that elevators plunging down to the bottom of an elevator shaft would make an explosion type sound and blow out the doors, however I have now learned from the Woo movement that they make the sound of a whoopie cushion, which is buried under the sounds of the demolition charges in the lower levels which serve no purpose in the demolition but help foil the whole plot.

[Corsair 115]

Popular Mechanics book.

It even has a picture of the blackened lobby.Seeing as the New York Times now has much of its old issues online and available for searching, one shouldn't have much trouble digging up the actual reports of the incident which were published in the newspaper if one wanted additional confirmation.

[ref]

I don't think it was the fuel alone.

IIRC, a piece of flaming debris crashed down the elevator shaft, which blew out the lobby.

The plane impacted the 78th and 79th floors on the towers north end.

...

The other engine hit the door leading into an elevator shaft and fell 80 stories. While falling the engine cut the cables on many of the elevators.

http://www.withthecommand.com/2002-Jan/NY-empireplane.html

Many reported seeing flaming debris fall down the elevator shafts. Unaware that the plane's other engine and part of its landing gear had fallen through the elevator shaft, rescue workers used elevators to transport casualties.

http://www.esbnyc.com/tourism/tourism_facts_esbnews_mar1996.cfm?CFID

[PhantomWolf]

Here's a nice fireball created by an explosive (20,000 lbs of C-4.) It was a FBI test. Note that the shockwave (which moves the camera) is far bigger than the fireball. There is no way to be burn by this without being killed by the compression wave.

cmxb4UoTdpE

Note that it's also handy to debunk those that go on about it being impossible to create a huge crater with a truck bomb.