NYPD air units on 9/11 warning of collapse?

[BenBurch]

Do I recall correctly that just prior to the collapse of the South Tower, air units of the NYPD were telling FDNY that collapse appeared to be imminent?

I cannot find the reference now, though.

Anyway, if I have recalled this correctly;

1. How do the CTers account for this?

2. Are there interviews with those pilots? What exactly did they see?

[boloboffin]

I believe that's right, and the truthers have accounted for it by claiming it as evidence that the towers were brought down by CD. After all, no one in the history of the human race has ever thought that a building might suddenly collapse.

[BenBurch]

I believe that's right, and the truthers have accounted for it by claiming it as evidence that the towers were brought down by CD. After all, no one in the history of the human race has ever thought that a building might suddenly collapse.

Then that is the slowest CD ever! I recall the warning was a tiny number of MINUTES prior.

[Bell]

Here's an interesting program about the NYPD pilots:

to5FJTrHt1k

[gumboot]

Do I recall correctly that just prior to the collapse of the South Tower, air units of the NYPD were telling FDNY that collapse appeared to be imminent?


No. They predicted the collapse of the North Tower, not the South Tower:

Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building."

Fatal Confusion (http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/7/7_P911.html)

-Gumboot

[defaultdotxbe]

I believe that's right, and the truthers have accounted for it by claiming it as evidence that the towers were brought down by CD. After all, no one in the history of the human race has ever thought that a building might suddenly collapse.
1: no skyscraper has ever collapsed

therefore

2: no one expected the WTC to collapse

therefore

3: anyone why DID expect it to collapse must have had foreknowledge of the CD


its like ring around the rosie but with logic, lol

[BenBurch]

Thanks, Gumboot.

Hmmm... Funny sort of Controlled Demolition then; It makes the exterior, massive, air-cooled on one side exterior wall glow red visible in daylight? That is a lot of heat this CD created before the building fell down! And don't say Thermite! You thermite guys have been making your "charges" smaller and smaller to fit facts, and now you'll have to make them weigh TONS.

[BenBurch]

1: no skyscraper has ever collapsed

therefore

2: no one expected the WTC to collapse

therefore

3: anyone why DID expect it to collapse must have had foreknowledge of the CD


its like ring around the rosie but with logic, lol

Sad to say, but I think you're right. :(

[Kryptos]

I cannot vouch for the rest of the Wikipedia article on the Collapse of the WTC, as I haven't had time to work on it or help maintain it. In fact the article is a mess. But, here I quote one section that I did write, which talks about what the NYPD knew.


Deteriorating conditions

Calls from occupants trapped in the upper floors relayed information via 9-1-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-1-1) about conditions. At 9:37 a.m., an occupant on the 105th floor of the South tower, reported that floors beneath him "in the 90-something floor" had collapsed.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-nist-ncstar1-8-p37) Deteriorating conditions were also reported by the helicopters of the NYPD aviation unit.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-nist-ncstar1-8-p37)
9:52 a.m. - the NYPD aviation unit reported over the radio that "large pieces may be falling from the top of WTC 2. Large pieces are hanging up there"
9:59 a.m. - they report that the South Tower is coming down.NYPD helicopters report deteriorating conditions of the North Tower.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-nist-ncstar1-8-p37)
10:20 a.m. - the NYPD aviation unit reports that the top of the tower might be leaning.
10:21 a.m. - they report that the North Tower is buckling on the southwest corner and leaning to the south.
10:27 a.m. - the aviation unit reports that the roof is going to come down very shortly.
10:28 a.m. - the NYPD reports that the tower is collapsing.With dispatchers overwhelmed, there was minimal communication with the NYPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department), and the FDNY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Fire_Department) were experiencing problems with faulty radios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_radio_communications). Firefighters inside the towers did not hear the evacuation order from their supervisors on the scene. 343 firefighters died in the Twin Towers, as a result of the collapse of the buildings. [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-mckinsey-ems)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-mckinsey-nypd)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#_note-7)


The McKinsey Report (for the NYPD and FDNY), used as a reference, explains that communication between the two was extremely poor, and that their staging points were at totally different spots. Then, of course after the South Tower collapsed, everyone was dispersed and coordinating any information about the North Tower was difficult, to say the least.

[einsteen]

1: no skyscraper has ever collapsed

therefore

2: no one expected the WTC to collapse

therefore

3: anyone why DID expect it to collapse must have had foreknowledge of the CD


its like ring around the rosie but with logic, lol

How would Arkan call this kind of logical flaw ? But to the point, I remember that some of them would expect a collapse but a local collapse, not a global one. But the building was an architectural freak!

[defaultdotxbe]

How would Arkan call this kind of logical flaw ?

probably affirming the consequent

if x knew of CD, x would know the building will fall
x knew the building will fall
therefore, x knew of CD

[Dave Rogers]

How would Arkan call this kind of logical flaw ? But to the point, I remember that some of them would expect a collapse but a local collapse, not a global one. But the building was an architectural freak!

2 is a simple non sequitur - the fact that something has never happened does not necessarily imply that it is not expected to happen in specific circumstances. 3 is poorly stated but probably follows logically when properly stated, which is something like:

2. No one expected the WTC to collapse from impact and fire damage,

therefore,

3. Anyone expecting the WTC to collapse must have based that expectation on knowledge of some other factor.

We still require a step 4 to determine that said other factor is a CD.

However, since 2 is a non sequitur, the fact that 3 follows from 2 is irrelevant.

Arkan, how did I do?

Dave

[BenBurch]

Thank you Kryptos. As a Wiki editor myself I simply don't trust the accuracy or neutrality of any hot button entries, but since you did that research yourself that removes any doubts.

[parky76]

What? They predicted the tower would collapse? Now its totally an inside job!!!

How could anyone predict the building would collapse..unless they had secret NWO info???

-In all honesty, even I, watching on CNN, thouhgt it would collapse. You could see the tower slightly leaning towards the direction of the impact.

[BenBurch]

What? They predicted the tower would collapse? Now its totally an inside job!!!

How could anyone predict the building would collapse..unless they had secret NWO info???

When did NWO Kitty get her helicopter license, I wonder? That cat gets more done in a day than the rest of we Illuminati put together!

[Sabrina]

NWO Kitty's a he, BTW. APA Kitty is a girl.

[BenBurch]

NWO Kitty's a he, BTW. APA Kitty is a girl.

:X

I hope this doesn't mean another "visit".

[gumboot]

While the NYPD aviation unit didn't predict a building collapse until after one of the buildings had fallen, others were a bit quicker in their predictions:

By 9:30 a.m., after both planes had struck, a rumor was circulating that a third hijacked plane was headed to New York. Assistant Chief Joseph Callan recalled feeling the north tower move. "I made the decision that the building was no longer safe," the chief told the Fire Department's oral history interviewers.

"All units in Building 1," he announced over the radio at 9:32. "All units in Building 1, come out, down to the lobby. Everybody down to the lobby."

Dwyer, J., Flynn, K. and Fessenden, F.; Fatal Confusion (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E7DA1E31F934A35754C0A9649C8B 63), New York Times, July 7 2002


Chief Callan provided more detail of his reason for this evacuation call in his FDNY testimony:

Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower.

Interview with Assistant Chief Joseph Callan (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Callan_Joseph.txt)
Conducted by NYC Fire Marshall Michael Starace, 2 November 2002


There’s also more information about the engineer who notified an EMS outside WTC7 that the towers would collapse, as recounted in the Commission Report.

I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I’m not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building’s stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.

I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located. Told him where it was across the street from number 1 World Trade Center. I told him ‘You see Chief Ganci and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severely compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse.’ So, he left off in that direction.

Interview with EMS Division Chief John Peruggia (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Peruggia_John.txt)
Conducted by Ron Castorina, 25 October, 2001


EMT Zarrillo continues the story:

John came to me and said you need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the following message: that the buildings have been compromised, we need to evacuate, they're going to collapse. I said okay. I went down Vesey Street towards West.

Q. You were by yourself?

A. I was by myself, me and my helmet and my radio. I got to the corner of Vesey and West. I found some EMS vehicles. I think I saw Chief Gombo there.
I'm not really sure. I mentioned to the EMS people there, again, not knowing who they were, I said you need to get away from here, the building might collapse, we need to leave this spot.

As I was walking towards the Fire command post, I found Steve Mosiello. I said, Steve, where's the boss? I have to give him a message. He said, well, what's the message? I said the buildings are going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With a very confused look he said who told you that? I said I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get out. He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said, hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are going to collapse. His reply was who the **** told you that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci, Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM. The message I was given was that the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down and that's when the building came down, the first tower came down.


Interview with EMT Richard Zarrillo (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110161.PDF)
Conducted by Ron Castorina, 25 October 2001


There’s also anecdotal evidence that others foresaw a building collapse:

My Thayer School engineering training came back, and I realized that with that intensity of heat in a building in which the steel girders were insulated with asbestos, it had to collapse within one hour. I called the fire department, police, etc. and told them the building was guaranteed to collapse. I was told that 911 was only for emergencies, and I should call somewhere else.

Ray C. Dougherty, Professor of Linguistics, New York University
Email to his Dartmouth College alumni mailing list, 11 September 2001
As hosted by New York University (http://www.nyu.edu/pages/linguistics/kaleidoscope/PDF-Essays/What%20a%20way%20to%20go.pdf)
And Dartmouth College Class of 1962 (http://www.alum.dartmouth.org/classes/62/bombdough.htm)

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

More info here:
Accounts of structural instability in the Twin Towers, Bowing of columns, Collapse expected (http://911stories.googlepages.com/accountsoftowerstructuralinstabilityande)

[BenBurch]

Excellent. Thanks, guys!

I had a Truther tell me that the FDNY command structure was in on the plot, so they won't believe this material. But its all you need to rule out their scenario completely.

[Mangoose]

just look at the photos the helicopter guys took of the NT right before it collapsed....it's no mystery why they came to the conclusions they did.

[Bell]

just look at the photos the helicopter guys took of the NT right before it collapsed....it's no mystery why they came to the conclusions they did.

I just asked Gravy yesterday where to find those pictures...

http://www.pbase.com/bankst/image/35931732/original :(

Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/bankst/911_gallery

[Mangoose]

Also, there is an ABC video of a reporter being told just seconds before the NT collapse that the tower is leaning and they have to move everyone back.