Pseudoscience/chemistry? "Irreversible eletrolytic catalysation"

[The Atheist]

Welcome to New Zealand's answer to Steorn.

They don't claim to have invented cold fusion, but some of the claims sound awfully close to it.

Fuelstar is a product developed by an Aussie who lives in NZ. He claims on his own website to have sold 180,000 of these devices worldwide. The device is a tin can filled with tin ball bearings. The can is fitted to the petrol/diesel/fuel line of any moving internal combustion engine. Through an unknown process, "sub-micron" particles of tin oxide are released which then act in much the same way as lead used to in petrol, but far more efficiently - to the extent that a petrol saving of 12% is promised, along with a handy 5% increase in power, reduced emissions and a free trip to Proxima Centauri.

Now, the "science" behind this has been repeatedly debunked, but that hasn't stopped Mr Cornelius from selling his units - at a price of $468 or better.

He has the highly convenient excuse ready-made on his website (and I love this): If a laboratory test fails to confirm the results in actual use, then it is the test or test methodology which is at fault, rather than the more obvious conclusion that the product doesn’t work to its expectation.

The only real fly in the ointment is that this bloke reckons it can work: T J Sprott OBE MSc PhD FNZIC Consulting chemist Forensic scientist.

In case you're unfamiliar with the "OBE" it's a high public honour conferred by the state [then Queen]. Jim Sprott is rightly regarded as an iconic New Zealand forensic scientist.

Check out the Fuelstar claims (and enjoy their test results) at their website here. (http://www.fuelstar.co.nz)

Now, I have no problem dispensing with Mr Cornelius and his sloppy gadget and pseudoscience, but Jim Sprott is another matter indeed. Many people think Jim has gone a bit dotty in his old age and he has admittedly come out with some stuff which sounds increasingly far-fetched.

In this instance, Jim seems to be verging on cold fusion, and I told him so today. Anyway, Jim swears that, given a certain vibration frequency, an "irreversible electrolytic catalysation" occurs within the tin pellets, which creates the sub-micron sized particles of tin oxide, which then causes the petrol in the combsution chamber to burn at a different rate from usual, creating the energy efficiency improvement. Jim assured me that it has "been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of doubt" that these tin particles exist within petrol and that they are measurably electronically charged. He also claims that the device definitely works, but he doesn't understand how. He admitted that anyone cracking this conundrum would be due a Nobel Prize for Chemistry.

Now, I'm well out of my depth here and wouldn't mind a chemist or two discussing a few points with me. I have already retained the services of an independent testing analytical chemist and mechanical engineering company, but I'd like to brush up on some of the chemistry without these buggers charging me $200 to teach me the Table of Elements.

There are a number of holes in Jim Sprott's case, the largest of which would seem to be that if this thing doesn't always work (and he admits that), it must be a very specific frequency of vibration which causes the catalysis. Despite that, a range of equipment from huge marine engines to cars and buses to lawnmowers all create this frequency while moving. He claims that it's clearly the movement which creates the frequency, because all dynamometer testing has shown no change in economy, power or emission. Shades of Mr Cornelius' "the test is wrong, not the product"

Can anyone shed any light on the chemistry involved here and whether the reaction of the tin is possible/likely/factual, disregarding at this stage the effect on petrol combustion. [nil]

[Acleron]

The FuelStar site claims that it is particles of tin that are released into the petrol and these form tin oxide during the subsequent combustion process. This seems perfectly reasonable.

Tin + Oxygen + high temperature -> tin oxide

There seems to be no reason to invoke the dreaded 'vibrations' or "irreversible electrolytic catalysation".

Laughingly, one end of this device contains 'powerful magnets' which "assist in fracturing hydrocarbon clusters through magnetic resonance". Quick, better tell the MRI technicians that their patients could explode or at least leave a nasty mess in the machine.

"Many people think Jim has gone a bit dotty in his old age", the many seem to have it.

[Madalch]

"Many people think Jim has gone a bit dotty in his old age", the many seem to have it.
I don't have an OBE or an FNZIC, but I will match his PhD in chemistry (and I've got a LRHSC).

And I'll agree with Acleron.

Catalysis is seldom irreversible. And it seems like you'd be going through a fair amount of tin, which would eventually gunk up your fuel and exhaust lines. And magnetic resonance isn't going to break up hydrocarbon molecules.

[patnray]

A catalyst promotes a chemical reaction without being consumed itself. For example, catalytic converters in the exhaust system use platinum to promote reactions to clean up the exhaust. You never have to replace the platinum in your catalytic converters. If the tin (or tin oxide) is being released into the petrol it is not acting as a catalyst. So what is the catalyst? And if tin (or tin oxide) is released into the petrol, how often does the tin in the device have to be replaced? Or does it somehow magically make its way from the exhaust back into the device?

In an electrolytic reaction, an electric current provides electrons that complete a reaction with a positive ion. Which would mean the device would have to be connected to the electrical system.

Neither catalysis nor electrolysis is dependant on vibrational frequency.

So, the effect can't be tested by measuring power output, the purported compounds can't be detected in the exhaust, the device consumes neither power nor chemicals, but we should take their word for it that it works. And the device must physically move (apparently the vibrations of the engine itself are not sufficient). I'm sure they have loads of testimonials too...

[The Atheist]

Thanks for the answers - that's pretty much the track I've been down.

[Taffer]

Completely OT, but TA has any independent test every been done on the Magnasleep range?

[The Atheist]

Completely OT, but TA has any independent test every been done on the Magnasleep range?

*Groan*

*sob*

I just realised we're in a public thread and I can't use the masking I'd like to to describe Magne-Sleep and Bio-Mag.

I looked for a single way to attack these guys and it simply isn't possible. And do you know why?

MRI.

Because MRI operation instructions are that pregnant women in the third trimester should not be present during imaging, the manufacturers have the market by the gulliballs.

The Gauss differential between MRI and fridge magnets is irrelevant to a large degree, simply because we can't disprove the bleeding things and we'd need very hard proof to dissuade people. Even worse, these magnet peddlars are as cunning as you know what kind of rats. They mount the suckers on gloriously soft, plush, 100% pure virgin New Zealand wool blankets!

How could you not have a better sleep on it?


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

I HATE those damn things with a passion, mostly because I'm powerless. On one hand, there's me a science textbook, on the other, April Ieremia, Inga Tuigamala, Murray Deaker.... Dead duck.

[The Atheist]

One question for the chemists:

Ignoring the getting the tin oxide into the petrol, what would tin oxide do to the combustion process? My understanding is: nothing.

Also, note that the tin pellets are guaranteed to last for 500,000 km. I must get andyandy to figure out what the ration of tin:petrol would be on that mileage. 200gm of tin in one for a car, I am told.

[Taffer]

*Groan*

*sob*

I just realised we're in a public thread and I can't use the masking I'd like to to describe Magne-Sleep and Bio-Mag.

I looked for a single way to attack these guys and it simply isn't possible. And do you know why?

MRI.

Because MRI operation instructions are that pregnant women in the third trimester should not be present during imaging, the manufacturers have the market by the gulliballs.

The Gauss differential between MRI and fridge magnets is irrelevant to a large degree, simply because we can't disprove the bleeding things and we'd need very hard proof to dissuade people. Even worse, these magnet peddlars are as cunning as you know what kind of rats. They mount the suckers on gloriously soft, plush, 100% pure virgin New Zealand wool blankets!

How could you not have a better sleep on it?


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

I HATE those damn things with a passion, mostly because I'm powerless. On one hand, there's me a science textbook, on the other, April Ieremia, Inga Tuigamala, Murray Deaker.... Dead duck.

That's what I thought (and feared). I hate them with a passion too.

:(

[Madalch]

One question for the chemists:
Ignoring the getting the tin oxide into the petrol, what would tin oxide do to the combustion process? My understanding is: nothing.
Various metal oxides (usually transition metal oxides, but tin might also work) will catalyze a number of different reactions involving hydrocarbons (catalytic cracking, that sort of thing), so I can't say it would do nothing.

But the combustion of hydrocarbons under the conditions of an internal combustion engine is probably as complete as one can get, given the short duration of a cycle. So I wouldn't invest in any catalysts for it.

[The Atheist]

Various metal oxides (usually transition metal oxides, but tin might also work) will catalyze a number of different reactions involving hydrocarbons (catalytic cracking, that sort of thing), so I can't say it would do nothing.

Sorry, badly worded - I mean nothing in terms of performance, as you note:

But the combustion of hydrocarbons under the conditions of an internal combustion engine is probably as complete as one can get, given the short duration of a cycle. So I wouldn't invest in any catalysts for it.

Thanks. That's as I see it.

[Jeff Corkern]

One question for the chemists:

Ignoring the getting the tin oxide into the petrol, what would tin oxide do to the combustion process? My understanding is: nothing.

Also, note that the tin pellets are guaranteed to last for 500,000 km. I must get andyandy to figure out what the ration of tin:petrol would be on that mileage. 200gm of tin in one for a car, I am told.

It's not impossible that tin could have some kind of effect. I am afraid this is not one of those trivial chemical questions any chemist could answer. It would take an expert in gasoline combustion to really know the answer.

I am an environmental chemist, FYI.


If you look at a periodic table, you will observe that Carbon, Silicon, Germaniun, Tin, and Lead are all in one column. This means they all have certain chemical properties in common, because they all have the same outer electronic configuration.

They all react with hydrogen in the same way, or example. CH4 (also known as methane), SiH4, GeH4, SnH4, and PbH4 can all form, though I am not sure how stable the last two are.

I cannot quite bring myself to say this tin thing is nonsense, although the reasons cited for the improvement in performance sound like complete nonsense. I have a reason for thinking it might work.

One of the metals in that group, Lead, was once used to prevent knocking (and thereby increase performance) in automobile engines, in the compound tetra-ethyl lead. (Pb(Et)4, lead with four ethyl groups attached to it). It worked just fine, except widespread use resulted in high levels of lead in the environment, and since lead bio-accumulates in the human body, its use was abandoned in favor of methyl tert-butyl ether.

As an environmental chemist, I wonder what the emissions are like. I'd bet a nickel you're getting high levels of tin out the exhaust.

There is quite a history of people claiming to come up with magic gadgets that improve fuel efficiency. Some of these gadgets have actually worked, but they all failed emissions testing, alas. There are more factors to be considered than fuel efficiency.

I'd bet another nickel that's how this shakes out, too. Maybe it works, but you're squirting heavy metals out into the environment again, and we already know that's a bad idea.

Hope this helps.

[The Atheist]

It's not impossible that tin could have some kind of effect. I am afraid this is not one of those trivial chemical questions any chemist could answer. It would take an expert in gasoline combustion to really know the answer.

I am an environmental chemist, FYI.


If you look at a periodic table, you will observe that Carbon, Silicon, Germaniun, Tin, and Lead are all in one column. This means they all have certain chemical properties in common, because they all have the same outer electronic configuration.

They all react with hydrogen in the same way, or example. CH4 (also known as methane), SiH4, GeH4, SnH4, and PbH4 can all form, though I am not sure how stable the last two are.

I cannot quite bring myself to say this tin thing is nonsense, although the reasons cited for the improvement in performance sound like complete nonsense. I have a reason for thinking it might work.

One of the metals in that group, Lead, was once used to prevent knocking (and thereby increase performance) in automobile engines, in the compound tetra-ethyl lead. (Pb(Et)4, lead with four ethyl groups attached to it). It worked just fine, except widespread use resulted in high levels of lead in the environment, and since lead bio-accumulates in the human body, its use was abandoned in favor of methyl tert-butyl ether.

Yep, that's all fine and this is where the pseudoscience comes in.

Exhaustive testing has been done at Melbourne & Auckland Universities using dynamometer tests and they all found exactly no increase in power and no reduction in fuel consumption.

That's when this mystery "resonant vibration frequency" rears its head. The claim behind the Fuelstar is that the frequency of vibration produces the effect, which is why dyno testing hasn't ever found any benefits.

As an environmental chemist, I wonder what the emissions are like. I'd bet a nickel you're getting high levels of tin out the exhaust.

There is quite a history of people claiming to come up with magic gadgets that improve fuel efficiency. Some of these gadgets have actually worked, but they all failed emissions testing, alas. There are more factors to be considered than fuel efficiency.

I'd bet another nickel that's how this shakes out, too. Maybe it works, but you're squirting heavy metals out into the environment again, and we already know that's a bad idea.

Hope this helps.

Actually, the emission business was the original claim of the device - it's only in the past year, with rapidly rising petrol prices, that it's seriously back on the market. Emissions testing showed no different emissions than just petrol - which tends to indicate that petrol + vibration + tin pellets doesn't actually get any tin into the petrol. Which is pretty much as you'd expect.

[Madalch]

I cannot quite bring myself to say this tin thing is nonsense, although the reasons cited for the improvement in performance sound like complete nonsense. I have a reason for thinking it might work.

One of the metals in that group, Lead, was once used to prevent knocking (and thereby increase performance) in automobile engines, in the compound tetra-ethyl lead. (Pb(Et)4, lead with four ethyl groups attached to it). It worked just fine, except widespread use resulted in high levels of lead in the environment, and since lead bio-accumulates in the human body, its use was abandoned in favor of methyl tert-butyl ether.

Tetraethyllead (no hyphens) worked to prevent knocking because it formed relatively stable free radicals, if I recall correctly. But metallic tin isn't going to react with hydrocarbons to give alkyltin compounds of any sort- it would need alkyl halides to undergo such a reaction.

[patnray]

As an environmental chemist, I wonder what the emissions are like. I'd bet a nickel you're getting high levels of tin out the exhaust.

That would mean tin is being consumed. Is elemental tin disolved by gasoline? How does it become tin oxide in the fuel line? And if that is the mechanism by which it "works", why all the nonsense about "irreversible electrolytic catalysation"? Why are special "vibrations" not available on a dynamometer required for it to work?

Tetraethyl lead was used to prevent knocking, not to improve mileage, although slowing down the combustion probably does result in more efficient extraction of power from the combustion and a modest increase in mileage.

Sorry, but if there were a real chemical basis for this they would not need to hide behind pseudoscientific language.

[The Atheist]

That would mean tin is being consumed. Is elemental tin disolved by gasoline? How does it become tin oxide in the fuel line? And if that is the mechanism by which it "works", why all the nonsense about "irreversible electrolytic catalysation"? Why are special "vibrations" not available on a dynamometer required for it to work?

All the answers to those questions are hidden behind a big "we don't know". In reality, it's because "they don't exist". The only trouble is that the supporter of the technology being viable is probably NZ's most famous living scientist.

When he states his PhD in Electrolytic Chemistry then tells listeners about the vibration frequency which causes the good old irreversible electrolytic catlysation, people assume that he knows what he's talking about.

No matter, the test I have lined up will put this one to bed once and for all.

Tetraethyl lead was used to prevent knocking, not to improve mileage, although slowing down the combustion probably does result in more efficient extraction of power from the combustion and a modest increase in mileage.

Sorry, but if there were a real chemical basis for this they would not need to hide behind pseudoscientific language.

And they'd maybe have a headquarters in a plush downtown address, watching their billions of dollars come in, rather than operating out of this bloke's garage.

I did have one good laugh so far - when talking to the "inventor", Ian Cornelius and the method of testing, he was going to have to...

"...talk to me technical manager. You may have heard of him, Dave ****, he builds racing engines out at Pukekohe."

"Ah, your "technical manager" is a mechanic?"

"... umm..... ..... yes."

"*uncontrollable laughter* My apologies, but Jim Sprott assures me that this is Nobel Prize level stuff. I'm not sure they have one for auto-shop blokes."

[BenBurch]

Well, then, if we really want to test this we need to prepare some gasoline that has been saturated with tin, probably boiling it in a retort under pressure with tin powder would do the job, and then of course you filter the resultant liquor.

If tin helps, this should REALLY show the effect when tested in an engine with a pony brake.

[krelnik]

using dynamometer tests ... they all found exactly no increase in power and no reduction in fuel consumption.

That's when this mystery "resonant vibration frequency" rears its head. The claim behind the Fuelstar is that the frequency of vibration produces the effect, which is why dyno testing hasn't ever found any benefits.


Seems like this is easily resolved. The Mythbusters did a show where they tested magical fuel devices like this one, and they measured the fuel economy using a large graduated cylinder that was connected to the fuel intake of the engine, bypassing the normal fuel tank. Some of this was done on a dyno, but other tests were done out on a track. Test this device the same way, out on a track with a measured fuel intake.

Heck, they revisit myths periodically, maybe we should submit this device for a revisit episode.

--Tim Farley

[Jeff Corkern]

Sorry, but if there were a real chemical basis for this they would not need to hide behind pseudoscientific language.

Yup.

I didn't mean to imply I believed in it. I think all that vibration stuff is nonsense. I was just trying to be as objective as possible.

[Jeff Corkern]

Tetraethyllead (no hyphens) worked to prevent knocking because it formed relatively stable free radicals, if I recall correctly. But metallic tin isn't going to react with hydrocarbons to give alkyltin compounds of any sort- it would need alkyl halides to undergo such a reaction.

Yeah, that was my chemical problem with this. You've got to get elemental tin into alkane solution in significant quantities, and tin not's reactive, and alkanes certainly aren't reactive. I can't see a way to get tin into solution.

That vibration thing makes no sense to me.

I think you're right about the free-radical thing. I read something about gasoline combustion mechanisms in C&E News decades ago. IIRC, there are two combustion mechanisms, one a smooth-burning one and the other an explosive mechanism("knocking" is gasoline exploding in the cylinder), which I vaguely recall involves free-radical chain propagation. Lead interrupts the propagation by forming relatively stable free radicals.

[The Atheist]

I've just posted a public thanks to you all here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3155001#post3155001)

Special thanks to Jeff, and here's why:

Jeff's initial comment above first raised the spectre of tin being expelled through exhaust systems. He expanded on that by e mail to me and raised the immensely important issue of tin as a potential pollutant.

This has turned out to be the final piece of the puzzle.

Even though proven to not work, people are still stupid enough to buy this idiot device as they buy homeopathic remedies, so an additional means of attack was needed to finish them off.

The end for Fuelstar is that, if it works, it is expelling tin oxides.

I spoke this morning to a senior toxicologist at New Zealand's National Poisons Centre and he told me quite a bit about tin. Even better, we discussed the growing realisation of health risks posed by minute particles of metal entering the lungs. Given Fuelstar's own talk about "sub-micron" particles of tin, the doctor I was talking to felt that they would certainly qualify as being something we would not choose to add to the environment.

Based upon his position - and he's the bloke the NZ Gov't asks for advice, they pay his salary - there is exactly zero chance that the Ministry for the Environment would allow this device to remain on sale, if it is releasing tin particles.

And if it isn't releasing tin particles...

IT DOESN'T WORK!

Fuelstar is about to be caught between two immovable objects, both government departments and the demise of the device is now merely a formality.

Thank you very much!