Do Humans Have Trouble Comprehending the Concept of Zero

[INRM]

One of the Egyptian's highlights in science and mathematics was the discovery of the number zero. Nothing.

On that note, do humans in general (innately, not counting having been taught) have trouble comprehending the concept of zero / nothingness.

Do you think this may be a reason why people believe in Afterlives? The inability to comprehend them becoming nothing?

INRM

[madurobob]

Well, I don't think they invented the concept of "nothing". Rather, they invented an elegant way of reflecting "nothing" in their number system and this allowed them to develop advanced maths not really possible with, say, roman numerals.

Of course, I'm no historian. Still, I don't think this relates much to humans having trouble comprehending "nothing".

[Hokulele]

Nitpick, Babylonians had a place-holder in their counting system that seems to be a pre-cursor to zero, and the Mayans had and used zero in their counting system. Regarding the historical and psychological implications of zero, I highly recommend the book Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea by Charles Seife. It is an excellent book.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Why would you not count having been taught a concept in trying to assess our ability to understand that concept?

[Akhenaten]

To start with, the origins of the concept of zero, as we know it today, lie in Hindu India, not Egypt. It's likely that the Mayans developed the concept even earlier.

Secondly, zero is a mathematical concept. Nothingness is a lack of matter or energy. Two different thingies, I'd say.

Thirdly, no. People believe in afterlives for all sorts of reasons. I don't think a lack of basic arithmetic skills is one of the reasons though.

The people who seem to have the most problem with their future nothingness are the theists who can't reconcile it with their current self-important view of the Universe. As someone who considers himself totally insignificant in terms of something even as small as our little planet, the prospect of my demotion from least significant bit to total zero doesn't bother me at all.


BTW. The Egyptians had no need for zero. They made sure they always had one of everything, so the problem never came up.

[wahrheit]

As someone who considers himself totally insignificant in terms of something even as small as our little planet, the prospect of my demotion from least significant bit to total zero doesn't bother me at all.

Well said, that's almost stuff for a signature. :thumbsup:

[INRM]

So prior to the Indians, nobody understood the concept of zero?

INRM

[Hokulele]

The Mayans apparently did. It shows up in their written language, in their calculations, and in their calendar.

[INRM]

How long ago were the Mayans alive?

[Hokulele]

Their calendar and calculations date back to about 400 BCE, although I have seen some texts reference their writing system back to 1200 BCE. Does it matter? Unless you are claiming the Hindus transmitted their concept of zero to the Mayans, I would guess that any independent generation of the concept of zero is interesting in and of itself.

[mhaze]

One of the Egyptian's highlights in science and mathematics was the discovery of the number zero. Nothing.

On that note, do humans in general (innately, not counting having been taught) have trouble comprehending the concept of zero / nothingness.

Do you think this may be a reason why people believe in Afterlives? The inability to comprehend them becoming nothing?

INRM

Yes, humans have problems comprehending the concept of zero. A definite and conclusive proof follows.

"How many beers are left?"

"There are no beers left".

"huhhh????"

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

This whole "inventing zero" thing has to do with using a digit as a placeholder in number. I think everyone always understood the idea of having zero beer, as mhaze notes.

~~ Paul

[Soapy Sam]

No. Pre Columbian Indians thought " no beer" were giant floating geese. They lacked the concept of suds, you see, so went for the closest alternative.

[dacium2007]

Even though zero came up sometimes in history, almost everywhere in history you see no zeros and most importantly inclusive counting - a sign that people did not understand what zero was.

For example inclusively they would think if something happens "every 4th day" they take it to mean what would we say "happens once every 3rd day". They can't reset to 0 on the day itself, they only reset to 1. So something that happens every 4rd day to them would be mean it happens on days 1 4 7 10 etc. Becaucase they count 1 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, while we count 1 2 3 4/0 1 2 3 4/0.

[Cuddles]

The main reason zero took a while to come in to fasion is because it just isn't needed for most basic things. If a farmer wants to count his animals he doesn't say "Right, I have 5 cows, 2 sheep, no camels, no horses, no dogs, no otters, etc.", he says "I have 5 cows and 2 sheep". People understood the concept of zero long before they ever wrote it down, they just didn't have much use for discussing it.

[drkitten]

Even though zero came up sometimes in history, almost everywhere in history you see no zeros and most importantly inclusive counting - a sign that people did not understand what zero was.

How does this indicate that people did not understand what zero was? Languages have idioms. In London, you need to go up one floor to get to the first floor, while in New York, you're on the first floor as soon as you walk in. Are you suggesting that Londoners have a better understanding of "no beer" than New Yorkers, or the other way around?

[Deetee]

Even though zero came up sometimes in history, almost everywhere in history you see no zeros and most importantly inclusive counting - a sign that people did not understand what zero was.

For example inclusively they would think if something happens "every 4th day" they take it to mean what would we say "happens once every 3rd day". They can't reset to 0 on the day itself, they only reset to 1. So something that happens every 4rd day to them would be mean it happens on days 1 4 7 10 etc. Becaucase they count 1 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, while we count 1 2 3 4/0 1 2 3 4/0.
I'm not sure this is because no-one understood the concept of zero - I think it just represented common terminology/convention. The first instance of something was labelled as happening on "day 1", or "year 1".

Jesus died on Friday - he rose on the 3rd day, Sunday (i.e. 48h and not 72 hours later).
Falciparum malaria is called malignant tertian fever ("3rd day") because it has a 48hour periodicity, not as you might expect from the name a 72 hour cycle. There is fever on Day 1, then fever on Day 3, the 3rd day. (similarly "quartan" malaria has a 72 hour cycle, not a 96 hour cycle).
Someone in their teens is in their second decade of life.
2001 is the first year of the millenium, not 2000 which is the last year of the previous millenium.
etc etc

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Counting starts with 1. Indexing starts with 0. That is the way the universe is meant to be.

~~ Paul

[voidx]

Regarding the historical and psychological implications of zero, I highly recommend the book Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea by Charles Seife. It is an excellent book.
Read this book as recommended, it will sort everything out for you. I read it a little over a year ago and my memory is a little fuzzy, but it lays out the history nicely.

People certainly understood the concept of zero. However, they were actually afraid of its implications. It wreaked havoc on standard math and multiplication as they understood it. It came to represent the anti-thesis of infinity. For many cultures this was a threat because many related God to the concept of infinity. I believe the indians were one of the first cultures to actually openly accept the mathematical concept of zero. Other cultures used it, as has been mentioned as simply a placeholder so as to move numbering systems away from say roman numerals and the like. However, they denied the actual concept of zero and its implications.

The book I believe even suggests that the dark ages, in combination with religious issues with accepting the concept of zero is what put western civilization so far behind mathematically and scientifically during that period of time, compared to euroasian cultures.

[Hokulele]

Even though zero came up sometimes in history, almost everywhere in history you see no zeros and most importantly inclusive counting - a sign that people did not understand what zero was.

For example inclusively they would think if something happens "every 4th day" they take it to mean what would we say "happens once every 3rd day". They can't reset to 0 on the day itself, they only reset to 1. So something that happens every 4rd day to them would be mean it happens on days 1 4 7 10 etc. Becaucase they count 1 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, 2 3 4/1, while we count 1 2 3 4/0 1 2 3 4/0.


Once again, I refer you to the Mayans. Their calendar (monthly and yearly) begin with day 0 and year 0.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Counting starts with 1. Indexing starts with 0. That is the way the universe is meant to be.

~~ Paul
Quite. Also, null <> 0.

[Damien Evans]

One of the Egyptian's highlights in science and mathematics was the discovery of the number zero. Nothing.

On that note, do humans in general (innately, not counting having been taught) have trouble comprehending the concept of zero / nothingness.

Do you think this may be a reason why people believe in Afterlives? The inability to comprehend them becoming nothing?

INRM

I think you mean Indians

ETA: That Heretical Pharaoh beat me to it