Seeking advice on applying to PhD programs

[SynapticDancer]

Greetings,

I am working on my masters degree right now. Unfortunately the program that I am in does not transcend on its own to a PhD program (neuroscience and education). Since I began this program I have become very interested in neurobiology, specifically regarding behavior and cognition. I have found a few programs along the east coast (my preference of geographic location, especially if it will involve a few years), but I'm slowly learning that I need to have my apps out within the next few weeks in order to start next fall (08). I am debating if I should wait, focus on completing this MS (which I should this coming May) and apply next year, or just apply to one program (my favorite program of the bunch) for now. I figure then if I don't get into this program, I'll have until next year to apply to it again, and all of the others.

I'm also seeking advice in the following areas

Reference letters: Do I need individualized reference letters for each application? I have a few powerful reference sources, but I don't want to ask them to write multiple letters each. One source offered to send me an electronic doc that I can change the date on to use multiple times should I need to. Also, I have a micture of college administrators, supervisors from my work, and professors. Should I provide a combination for a PhD program, or should they be exclusively academic?

Personal statement: When getting into my MS program, I made the case for being in a neuro program even though I had no background in it, but a strong background in psych. However, I have yet to really get any lab experience, and I thought I would emphasize my background in psych and neuro, and that I want to enter this program in order to do labwork (the program would fund me so I can leave my job teaching math and statistics and focus on my academic work and research). Is it okay to say that, or might it be perceived as making excuses for deficits?

Further, I figure I can also apply to a safe school (a school I am most positive to get into) even though I think the school and program are fairly lame. If I don't get into my program of choice, would it be recommended that I go into a safe school, and reapply next year and transfer in an effort to stay in school. Or should I just go for the program I want and if I don't get enough info (for example, I registered for the GRE subject test but I cannot take it until april, which will be after they have made a decision) reapply next year and not bother with the lame program?

I know this is asking a lot, but most of the people in my personal life give me advice that I know is riddled with their own agendas (example, my supervisor advises me in the way that will make me not leave my job there to enter a program) and I am getting really frustrated by the whole process, not to mention that deadlines are weighing down on me.

Thanks!

[Susan Gerbic]

Hi, I just want to put my two cents in before everyone else because I have little to say concerning the actual science part.

I was turned down for the Masters program for the school nearby so now I am taking classes to improve my writing and hopefully impress some professors who will recommend me. The time is ticking away while I spend years on this project. So trust me I understand how frustrating this is.

My opinion is you should forgo the MS and go right for the PhD. Only apply to the schools that have the program you really want, not the safe school with the lame degree. You will be unhappy the whole time.

My local school does not offer a PhD but if it did I would do everything in my power to prepare myself for that program and apply forgoing the MA. Even if it meant taking more classes and waiting more time to get in.

My sister quit her excellent job at the University that offered a PhD in the field she wanted, left her medical benifits, left her cat, left her boyfriend to live in her house and she moved 4 hours away took an apt and is living a lonely crazy life at a university that has an excellent program with fantastic professors. In the end she will only have her MS (they don't offer a PhD). With this said, she knows she made the right decision, because its worth it to lose the comfortable life you are living right now, to get in the program that will really enrich you in the long run.

If you were talking about a BA then I might say, just get the darn thing where ever you can. But for the MA and PhD you need to get into programs that are excellent, not so so.

Now I'll shut up and read what the real intelligent people have to say

Susan

[Jeff Corey]

Finish your MS, even though a lot of credits won't transfer. Apply now to at least the safe program and the one you want. Letters from Professors and research supervisors are preferable. Provide any recommender with a list of good things to say about you. Don't forget to follow the directions about the confidentiality check off.
Good luck.

[volatile]

More lengthy advice tomorrow, but I'd suggest looking at PhDs in the UK and Europe where the fees are lower and you are generally in control of your own research from the beginning - there are no classes, credits, seminars, lessons or assessed work other than the thesis itself. It's a very satisfying, very mature and very rewarding way to approach a Doctorate, especially if you already have clear research goals.

You wouldn't be applying for programmes, generally, but should just be looking for academics in your field who you think would be able to supervise your project. If you're good enough, and you find the right person, applications are usually pretty straightforward (and easier, and ultimately more productive) than going through the lottery of doctoral programmes in the States.

Either way, definitely finish your MS. Oh, and learn to be patient, especially if applying for funding. It took me 3 years to get the funding for my PhD (in Art History / Philosophy).

[Jeff Corey]

Maybe that works for a degree in art history/ philosophy in Europe, but if one wants to get a Ph.D. in neuroscience on the Right Coast of the US, that's not how it works. You want to get into a good lab that is pumping out a load of publishable research. Then on your personal statement of what you wanna do, "I am particularly interested in the research that Professor Bltzflk is engaged in regarding the role of the pretectal nucleus in mental rotation'
It would help is you had previously asked Dr. Bltzflk for all her previous papers on the subject.
Different strokes for different folks.
The old boy/girl network still works. Get recommendations from people who know others where you want to go.

[TruthSeeker]

I would start applying to programs before finishing the MS especially if you plan to convocate before September. Do not apply to the lame school. Transfer from another program you just got into may make you look like a high risk candidate.

Get in touch with the professor who you would like to supervise you. Outline why you want to work with him/her and what you have to offer his/her lab. You lack lab research but translational research is big and perhaps you might pitch it that way. DO NOT send a form email saying vague things like "your research topic is interesting to me." and nothing else. I get lots of those and delete them without responding.

Your referees will expect to send multiple letters/forms to different schools. They should and will tailor it a bit to each program. It is not so time consuming once they have generated the original letter. It is helpful if you provide an email or document that lists each program letter you need, the due date and whether they return it to you (with the envelope signed etc) or send directly to the program. If possible, provide addressed envelopes with the forms. I prefer to have the organizational document as an email which I can set to alert me each time a letter is almost due.

I would forego the reference from the person who is willing to actually give you the letter. It is likely to be generic and will not help you. Ask people who will blow your horn and wave your banner.

I agree with Jeff that it is good to get letters from people that know your preferred supervisor. Another strategy is to have your MS supervisor (who should write a letter) call or email a colleague in the program you'd like to attend and ask him/her to have a look at your application. When I applied to graduate school, the program received over 200 applications and were willing to accept 7. The man I wanted to work with had decided not to take students as he was nearing retirement age. My undergrad research advisor called a friend at the program and had him put my application directly into my desired advisor's mailbox. The rest is history.

You should be honest about your lack of lab skills in your personal statement and outline a plan to acquire such skills ASAP. Could you volunteer in a lab where you currently are?

Good luck!

[volatile]

Maybe that works for a degree in art history/ philosophy in Europe, but if one wants to get a Ph.D. in neuroscience on the Right Coast of the US, that's not how it works. You want to get into a good lab that is pumping out a load of publishable research. Then on your personal statement of what you wanna do, "I am particularly interested in the research that Professor Bltzflk is engaged in regarding the role of the pretectal nucleus in mental rotation'

That's what I said, kinda - except you won't get into a lab other than as a PhD student here, really.

[drkitten]

I am working on my masters degree right now. Unfortunately the program that I am in does not transcend on its own to a PhD program (neuroscience and education). Since I began this program I have become very interested in neurobiology, specifically regarding behavior and cognition. I have found a few programs along the east coast (my preference of geographic location, especially if it will involve a few years), but I'm slowly learning that I need to have my apps out within the next few weeks in order to start next fall (08). I am debating if I should wait, focus on completing this MS (which I should this coming May) and apply next year, or just apply to one program (my favorite program of the bunch) for now. I figure then if I don't get into this program, I'll have until next year to apply to it again, and all of the others.

Okay. Some advice from yet another professional, to add next to Corey's, TS, and [probably] volatiles.

First, you do not apply to programs, you apply to advisors (even though you mail the envelope to a program). Find a person you want to work with and tailor your application to make sure that Dr. Erlenmeyer reads it and decides whether or not she wants to work with you. If there's no spedific person at the program that you want to work with, you don't want to be in that program. I usually recommend not even bothering to apply to a "safe" school. If the only reason you want to be there is because they are guaranteed to accept anyone, what will you do with the degree once you have it?

Individual reference letters always help. The skills and credentials you need to work in Dr. Erlenmeyer's lab aren't the same as the ones that you need for Dr. Florence's lab. Professorial recommendations are almost always more powerful than others unless you're talking about a professional neurologist from the Mayo Clinic or something. I don't care what your scoutmaster says about you.

Timing : Try to apply this round. If you don't pull it off, no harm done. But it's much harder to leave and come back than it is to go straight into another program.

Personal statement. Tell them who you are. Don't tell them what they want to hear; that will just disappoint you both if you get in and discover the mismatch.

[SynapticDancer]

Thanks so much!

It hadn't realy occured to me (although I'm not sure why) to try to contact professors in the program itself. This has proven very beneficial. You see, the program I want is in the grad school of art and science at the same university that I am doing my MS (although I'm in the grad school of education right now). I looked over the faculty list for this program and found that a professor I'm currently taking a class with is listed. I'm doing quite well in her class, so I sent her an e-mail inquiring about the program, talking about my interest and background, etc. I'll let you know how that goes.

All of the advice is really great so far! Thanks so much!

[SynapticDancer]

My sister quit her excellent job at the University that offered a PhD in the field she wanted, left her medical benifits, left her cat, left her boyfriend to live in her house and she moved 4 hours away took an apt and is living a lonely crazy life at a university that has an excellent program with fantastic professors. In the end she will only have her MS (they don't offer a PhD). With this said, she knows she made the right decision, because its worth it to lose the comfortable life you are living right now, to get in the program that will really enrich you in the long run.



And I think you summed it up the best! I'm feeling rather old and comfortable in my residence, job, etc. I'm feeling like I don't want a big change, even though at the same time I want nothing more! A million thanks!

[digithead]

Have you made the rounds of your professional association meetings yet? They are a great place to network...

And I echo what others have said, your personal statement should reflect your research interests, your desire to work with one or more faculty within a program, and where you see your research going in the future...

Additionally, do your homework regarding programs. Your faculty that you have now should be able to help you with this, especially the reputation of certain individuals with regard to how they treat students, how engaged you will be in their research, and if they get students out in a reasonable amount of time. Remember that you need to work with someone because you can work with them. Even if they have a great reputation, they may not make good committee chairs...

[Pyrts]

You can look for an interdisciplinary program... they're real hoots and a lot of fun. I'm currently getting an interdisciplinary PhD and love it!

Warning: It's also BLOODY EXPENSIVE!

[bpesta22]

You mentioned cognition. I like cognitive psych (not a big neuro-psych fan though). Just curious what specific research areas interest you?

The advice here seems good. It sounds like you want to go into academics. The strength of the school then goes a long way toward being competitive in the job market. More important-- depending on where you want to teach-- will be whatever pubs you have coming out. I dunno if neuropsych is over-supplied like the rest of psych, but you might have to do a post doc for a few years after the ph.d. to be competitive in the job market.

Generic letters of reference are an annoying formality. What matters more is either having an outstanding record coming in, or having the right person write your letter (specifically, someone who knows someone in the program you're applying to).

Good luck!

[Jeff Corey]

It didn't cost me much, because I hooked up with a guy who had grant money. That's why Dr K and others advised young Luke to get in touch with hot shots in the field. It helps if you have read their stuff and know where they are coming from.
May the Farce be with you, young Luke.

[wollery]

Just my two small coins of a non specified currency, as I recently wrote a reference for a Masters student applying to a PhD program. Try to get at least one referee who knows the person you'll be working with. It makes the application process smoother, and success far more likely. Ask the referees to write individualised references, it's actually a lot easier to do than you might think, and for a PhD application most will do that anyway.

Be honest about any lack of experience in a particular skill that might be part of the PhD you're applying for (such as lab work), and say that you're keen to improve that aspect of your work. If you already knew how to do everything you wouldn't need a supervisor!

[T'ai Chi]

Also, I have a micture of college administrators, supervisors from my work, and professors. Should I provide a combination for a PhD program, or should they be exclusively academic?


IMO I'd say mostly academic, but some work-related references are always useful.

[SynapticDancer]

You mentioned cognition. I like cognitive psych (not a big neuro-psych fan though). Just curious what specific research areas interest you?


I spent most of undergrad researching the effects of anxiety on learning (and memory) and academic performance. This became more specific as I became interested in mathematical thinking and math anxiety. This was all within the realm of psych and cog psych.

For my MS I'm interested in seeing if I can observe a cortical downshift from higher cognitive structures (such as the prefrontal lobe) to deep structures (such as the amygdala) when a person who demonstrates symptoms of math anxiety is given math problems while EEG recordings are taken from their scalp. There are, of course, lengthly details about my method, about what my hypothesis might accomplish if supported, what new questions it might arise about learning, specifically about building associations and pairing aversive consequences with a conditioned stimuli (i.e. math), and if not supported what the implications are about the role of anxiety in learning and performance.

[SynapticDancer]

Additionally, do your homework regarding programs. Your faculty that you have now should be able to help you with this, especially the reputation of certain individuals with regard to how they treat students, how engaged you will be in their research, and if they get students out in a reasonable amount of time. Remember that you need to work with someone because you can work with them. Even if they have a great reputation, they may not make good committee chairs...

An important point. Thanks

[SynapticDancer]

You can look for an interdisciplinary program... they're real hoots and a lot of fun. I'm currently getting an interdisciplinary PhD and love it!

Warning: It's also BLOODY EXPENSIVE!

This was something my advisor suggested as well. But if I remember correctly he said the interdis approach was only available at my institution for an EdD.

He also heeded the same warning. I'm really trying to get funded.

[SynapticDancer]

Be honest about any lack of experience in a particular skill that might be part of the PhD you're applying for (such as lab work), and say that you're keen to improve that aspect of your work. If you already knew how to do everything you wouldn't need a supervisor!

This was something that made sense to me, but I'm just afraid of what I might be up against (i.e. rich kids who had all the time in the world to volunteer in labs during undergrad while I had to work full time and take my classes at night. Unfortunately, I fear they might have better applications than me as a result).

[bpesta22]

Are you familiar with the name Mark Ashcraft? He was a mentor of mine, and used to be at my skool, til UNLV took him. Anyway, he's done a fair amount in this area.

I remember the MARS!

[SynapticDancer]

Are you familiar with the name Mark Ashcraft? He was a mentor of mine, and used to be at my skool, til UNLV took him. Anyway, he's done a fair amount in this area.

I remember the MARS!

I am very familiar with the name Mark Ashcraft! I am interested in his work concerning the role of working memory in the math anxious student, especially as a causal factor of how math anxiety impedes performance.

My current interest is to see if math anxiety behaves in much the same way neurologically as fear conditioning (to try to explore the causal roots of math anxiety, and perhaps led to a better understanding of treatment). I'm using the MARS to delineate my participants in "math anxious" and "non-math anxious". I haven't worked out all of the kinks, but for a first real attempt even if I bungle the whole thing up, at least I'll learn what not to do on my next try.

[SynapticDancer]

Thus far, this advice has been some of the most helpful I have recieved! I am using just about all of it as I continue with my applications. Thanks so much everyone, and I will let you know my progress.

[bpesta22]

Thus far, this advice has been some of the most helpful I have recieved! I am using just about all of it as I continue with my applications. Thanks so much everyone, and I will let you know my progress.

Small world!

There's been some recent research claiming working memory is equivalent to g (IQ). I think there's more to IQ than WM, but it is a non-trivial aspect of IQ.

If you do measure WM, it'd be interesting to also measure g. I use the Wonderlic, which you can get for free if you submit a research proposal to them. It's a 12 minute test and can be collected in group, so it's very easy to use. I think it would be useful to control for general IQ when looking at any type of intervention re working memory (the slope of the RT product size function correlates inversely with g!).

Also, median splits don't bother me (taking scores on the MARS and dividing people into high and low groups) but some researchers get upset with them, and there was at least one famous article arguing that it's a bad way to split people into groups.

In my world view (which many many disagree with!) IQ/WM causes math ability with then causes anxiety or enjoyment of solving math problems. I guess habituating the math anxious might help, but I'd bet whatever intervention you use will help the high math group more than the low (assuming no ceiling effects).

The above are all just my opinion, so take em with a grain of salt.

B

[SynapticDancer]

Small world!

There's been some recent research claiming working memory is equivalent to g (IQ). I think there's more to IQ than WM, but it is a non-trivial aspect of IQ.

If you do measure WM, it'd be interesting to also measure g. I use the Wonderlic, which you can get for free if you submit a research proposal to them. It's a 12 minute test and can be collected in group, so it's very easy to use. I think it would be useful to control for general IQ when looking at any type of intervention re working memory (the slope of the RT product size function correlates inversely with g!).

I'm not sure if I'm there yet. I'm mostly just trying to observe math anxiety as a neurological event. I do think there is something to be said for the importance of WM in mathematical problem solving, and the idea that math anxiety can take up space in WM (which has a finite capacity) made so much sense to me. Most of the research I have read however shows that math anxiety (MA) is independent of G and IQ. I would tend to think they would have to be related in some way, but I think the point is that MA is not a condition isloated to people ordinarily considered lacking in general scholastic aptitude.


Also, median splits don't bother me (taking scores on the MARS and dividing people into high and low groups) but some researchers get upset with them, and there was at least one famous article arguing that it's a bad way to split people into groups.

The MARS provides a scoring method for determining when a score can be considered math anxious. However, it is on a continuum so I thought I might also try to map it on a scatterplot showing level of activation with the intensity of math anxiety.


In my world view (which many many disagree with!) IQ/WM causes math ability with then causes anxiety or enjoyment of solving math problems. I guess habituating the math anxious might help, but I'd bet whatever intervention you use will help the high math group more than the low (assuming no ceiling effects).

The above are all just my opinion, so take em with a grain of salt.

B


See, I thought so when I first started research in the area. But then I worked with individuals who experienced high anxiety and tension, despite that they scored well and demosntrated that they understood the material (granted they never felt they understood the material until I confirmed their accuracy, and always thought they would do poorly prior to an exam). In this case, the anxiety was not caused by any past failure or lack of ability, and the contious demonstration of great performance did not in any way decrease the anxiety. This is why I lean more towards a pavlovian concept of stimulus pairing. These individuals experience a fearful response because something in their head is telling them "DANGER!" and environmental ques are not interferring with this signal. Most of the success I have had with these students was in taking them back to find the place when they first began experiencing the fear. I would think it's kind of similar to REBT.

[wollery]

This was something that made sense to me, but I'm just afraid of what I might be up against (i.e. rich kids who had all the time in the world to volunteer in labs during undergrad while I had to work full time and take my classes at night. Unfortunately, I fear they might have better applications than me as a result).If I had two applications in front of me for equally qualified candidates, and one had had to work through their undergraduate degree at night classes whilst holding down a full time job, the other application is going in the bin. Nothing speaks more loudly about determination to succeed!

[ponderingturtle]

If I had two applications in front of me for equally qualified candidates, and one had had to work through their undergraduate degree at night classes whilst holding down a full time job, the other application is going in the bin. Nothing speaks more loudly about determination to succeed!

I tried to tell her that this weekend. She views that as not being hired based on her merit but on her background, and is very opposed to that. I will suggest she check this thread tonight.

[SynapticDancer]

I can definetely see the arguments of both wollery and of course my turtle :)

I guess I worry that it will come across as an excuse. As if I am saying "hey, let me into this program that I might not have the actual skills to succeed in because I have this moving story of perseverance to tell". I mean, I realize ambition trumps high test scores in many cases, but truth be told, I simply would have better developed skills in certain areas if I gone to college (and nothing but college) at 18. To that end, I would hate to manage to get into a demanding program because of a narrative complete with violin and kleenex, and find that I really truly can't keep up with kids eight years younger than me who have been trained since the crib for ivy league.

To that end, I have accomplished more than I thought (and developed a terrible addition to caffeine in the process) and I'm am honestly quite pleased with where I am and where I anticipate ending up this fall.

I will reconsider my position against tugging on the heart strings of my reviewers. Most of my apps require personal statements far too short for me to go into such detail, and I would rather take the space to discuss the research I have conducted and wish to conduct. The longer ones I can afford to mention that, and I just might. :D