Machines that go ping!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I've only just read this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=95894) thread and hence looked at this (http://www.alternative-doctor.com/) website.

What is is about AltMeddlers that they think of themselves as the great iconoclasts then believe every word of the sales brochure for any whacky gizmo or gadget that claims to work with "vibrations" or "energy"?

I find this one of the most perplexing aspects of the whole world of sCAM

(The thread title? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arCITMfxvEc)

[tsg]

What is is about AltMeddlers that they think of themselves as the great iconoclasts then believe every word of the sales brochure for any whacky gizmo or gadget that claims to work with "vibrations" or "energy"?

I object to this as a gross mischaracterization. It also has to say "quantum".

[Hellbound]

And "quantum energy vibrations" is the triple-secret bonus word.

[casebro]

hmmm. I'm wondering if we go to nuclear energy in a big way, to avoid green house AGW, if we will see the goodness? Then the word "ATOMIC" will come back into vogue as an advertising adjective?

Conversely, can we use 'quantum' to sell the public on nuclear energy? "Save the world the Quantum Way- Vote for nuclear power!"

[Hellbound]

Oh oh oh!!

New all-natural quantum nuclear reactor! The waste products are full of vibrational energy! It's good for you!

I see potential here...

[Thing]

Remember: waves = good, rays = bad.

[Schneibster]

Resonant quantum energy vibrations.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

http://www.energetic-medicine.net/device-comparison.html

Wow! Not debating angels on pinheads, but claiming to count them and describing the colours of their wings!

[Deetee]

Bioresonant quantum energy vibrations.

Regarding the "enegetic medicine" devices (thanks BSM)....
This page summarises (http://www.energetic-medicine.net/devices.html)what they are meant to do.
Read it and weep.

The cheapest is $10k, but hink of the money you can make to recoup your outlay!
For instance, with this one you can cure 500 people at once:Quantec (http://www.energetic-medicine.net/Quantec.html)
The Quantec is a radionics device deigned to restore health by the vibration emission of remedies. Inbuilt programming also allows the transmission of therapeutic signal to 500 clients simultaneously.How does it work? Read it and scream with the pain of a thousand flames of woo burning your brain:
Quantec believe that biophotons (light emissions, weak electromagnetic waves) merge into a collective global consciousness, also known as the ‘spirit’ or morphogenetic field. The intrinsic intelligence of the morphogenetic field interacts with the white noise diode (random generator) within the Quantec system, the computer and the software with the desired intention. Deficiencies of the client’s morpgogenetic field are identified in the Quantec scan, then removed/resolved with radionics impulses. A well instructed morphogenetic field can induce desired materialistic changes, and thereby restore the client to full health.

Each biophoton has a twin photon, which has been shown to maintain simultaneous contact with it’s opposing pair over any distance. This enables remedy collection and distance healing with the Quantec by simply taking a digital photograph of the target (camera included), which is saved 1:1 on the computer hard disk. The theory states that a certain percentage of the biophotons in the photograph will be twin photons, so the information and corresponding vibration of any object or client can be collected or transferred by the Quantec.

[Rolfe]

:jaw-dropp

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Bioresonant Read it and scream with the pain of a thousand flames of woo burning your brain:

This, I think goes to the heart of the deluded or fraudulent (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2006/07/memetics-of-quackery-part-1.html) debate.

Someone at some time has sat down with a bucket of electronic bits and made these machines. How the hell can you build such a device without any coherent sense of testing whether the machine you have just made actually operates according to your theory.

We know that making homeopathic remedies by diluting and shaking is deluded, but it is at least simple, you just follow the easy instructions in the book. The thing with these machines is that they are complicated, there are all sorts of ways in which they could be made wrongly.

Also you have two phases. There is the prototyping then there is the manufacture of a final device. Presumably these people, if not frauds, think they are geniuses whose every prototype and design variant works brilliantly first time. The second is manufacture where the real world accepts the potential for a dodgy bit of soldering would disable a perfectly well-designed device, hence the need for quality control.

It's the phase between dreaming up the idea and making the machine that I'd like to get them to justify and I'd like to ask a woo just what is the difference between these machines and Big Pharma's methods which means they swallow hook, line and sinker the spiel of these loony-machines makers.

In my recent conversation with a homeopath, he was quite prepared to describe our old friend the e-Lybra (http://www.bio-resonance.com/elybra.htm) machine as "wacky", but didn't have an answer when I pointed out that its users were just as happy with it as the users of lovingly handcrafted magic water from the standard homeo pharmacies.

[Dr. Imago]

Don't get me started about the BIS™ monitor...

Okay, I'll start. ;)

This is a "legitimate" medical device that we use in the OR that actually does monitor brainwave activity to purportedly enable the practitioner to assess current "depth of anesthesia."

I do think this machine has legitimate role in certain anesthetics, but the company's goal (which any marketer of any device ultimately wants) is for us to use it an all anesthetics. How do they accomplish this? By sending b-roll to television outlets scaring the public about the possibility of intra-operative awareness, a rare phenomenon usually caused by either clinician error or already well-known and understood risks associated with particular surgeries, and not the failure of the medications used to exert an effect.

In all seriousness, there is already so much going on in the room that we have to pay attention to, and adding another monitor creates the potential for clinician fatigue and distraction. For example, the clinician may fixate on the number produced by this machine (which the company states is a proprietary algorithm based upon EEG and EMG to calculate a "gross" number that purportedly correlates with likelihood of awareness).

I've seen firsthand where anesthetics were unnecessarily deepened because clinicians fell into the trap of treating the BIS number instead of the patient. The BIS people will tell you that the magic number is 60 (i.e., below 60 your chance of having awareness during anesthesia is miniscule). They will also say that you can lessen the amount of drugs and medication given by "titrating" your anesthetic to achieve this number. What they don't account for is the patient who still generates a number of 70-75, despite near elephant-levels of anesthetic agents.

I had a patient once, who despite all other signs we are taught in anesthesia school of an appropriately deep anesthetic, would not drop his number below 65. On occassion and during critical portions of the case, his number was in the low 80's (according to the company, significant risk for awareness). Instead of treating the number, I relied on other input from my anesthetic machine (after checking to ensure I hadn't missed anything) and the patient's vital signs and clinical presentation to determine that the anesthetic was deep enough. Had I simply treated the number, I might've been inclined to deepen the anesthetic to a level where hemodynamic instability might've occcurred. In this particular patient, I followed-up 24 hours later and there was absolutely no recollection of the peri-operative time. The last thing he'd remembered was being wheeled down the hallway to the operating suite. The next thing after that was waking up in his hospital bed... not in the recovery room, but the floor! To me, this was firsthand (albeit anecdotal) proof why a vigilante clinician will always trump the false re-assurance of a monitoring device.

What's my point? There are potentially legitimate devices out there that we are, through public pressure and legal action, pushed to use. While studied extensively and even eventually approved by the appropriate regulatory bodies, they still may have hidden risks in their use. Based on this knowledge, I can't see why anyone would buy a non-regulated device not only not-knowing or being able to quantify its purported legitimate treatment effect in the first place, but also not knowing what potential harm it may do.

Are people really so gullible? (Don't answer that. ;) )

-Dr. Imago

[Acleron]

This, I think goes to the heart of the deluded of fraudulent (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2006/07/memetics-of-quackery-part-1.html) debate.

Someone at some time has sat down with a bucket of electronic bits and made these machines. How the hell can you build such a device without any coherent sense of testing whether the machine you have just made actually operates according to your theory.



You don't need any theoretical background to swish some water in a bottle and proclaim it a wonder cure thus many of these woos can be deluded and others are simply fraudulent.

I feel you must know the elements of electronics to construct these devices and therefore must know they are fraudulent. Even if somebody else constructs the device you have to explain to them what effect you want. His 'Hypergravity vibration exercizer' for example cannot have been constructed by telling an engineer build me something that 'increases growth hormone, reduces blood pressure, lowers cholesterol, REVERSES OSTEOPOROSIS and has a host of other health benefits'.

[Deetee]

This, I think goes to the heart of the deluded or fraudulent (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2006/07/memetics-of-quackery-part-1.html) debate.
Nice summary.
The "Quack memeplex" - I like it.:D
Expect me to use it in the future somewhere.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

You don't need any theoretical background to swish some water in a bottle and proclaim it a wonder cure thus many of these woos can be deluded and others are simply fraudulent.

I feel you must know the elements of electronics to construct these devices and therefore must know they are fraudulent. Even if somebody else constructs the device you have to explain to them what effect you want. His 'Hypergravity vibration exercizer' for example cannot have been constructed by telling an engineer build me something that 'increases growth hormone, reduces blood pressure, lowers cholesterol, REVERSES OSTEOPOROSIS and has a host of other health benefits'.

Which kinda leads me on to the regulatory authorities on our respective sides of the pond.

Surely some nonsense device that makes unsubstantiated, unsubstantiatable and probably untrue claims must fall foul of consumer protection legislation.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Nice summary.
The "Quack memeplex" - I like it.:D
Expect me to use it in the future somewhere.

I have here for your perusal and delight the "Quack Memeplexer 2007" an electronic device guaranteed to hold your quack memes secure against all possible criticism. Only £10,000 (+P&P).

I think I may have fallen into a self-referential recursion from which there is no escape.

[Hellbound]

BSM:

But it's Quantum! You can tunnel out!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

BSM:

But it's Quantum! You can tunnel out!


Yes, I could, but the "Quantum Quack Memeplexer 2007" is £20,000 and I don't have that kind of money.

I think I need a lie-down.

[Deetee]

I have here for your perusal and delight the "Quack Memeplexer 2007" an electronic device guaranteed to hold your quack memes secure against all possible criticism. Only £10,000 (+P&P).
Is it VAT exempt and tax-deductable?