The "faith" of my father

[Abdul Alhazred]

The "faith" of my father was Atheism. He was unapolgetic about it and taught it to his children.

He was raised a Roman Catholic, but not bitter or disrespectful toward his parents or relatives.

My mother was Jewish, but certainly not religious when I was a a child. She bacame more religious later, but that story is for another time.

Since I was a child I have flirted with both Orthodox Judaism and various fundie Christian types, before I settled down to the "faith" of my father.

I'm not so positive as he was. The fact that the universe has a definite beginning in time gives me pause. But I am certain that the particular claims of any organized religion are false.

That said, I have noticed that in general the bitterest and nastiest Atheists are the ex-Catholics and ex-Christian-fundies.

Something to do with the Devil gnawing at your soul, perhaps? :p

Too nasty? OK here: :rub:

[Lord Kenneth]

May I ask... what the hell are you talking about?

:confused:

[triadboy]

My dad was very non-religious. I never got to talk to him about it, but he never went to church with us. He was from the reformed Mormons that split off in the mid-west, but joined the Navy as soon as he could and split.

My mom, on the other hand, felt some kind of obligation to dress my ass up in a suit and drag me and my sister to church. (We're both atheists now). When I was about 8 we moved to Germany and I never went to church again. I guess the sound of a priest screaming and stomping in German would have been too frightening.

My wife and 2 beautiful daughters (20 and 12) are all non-believers and I'm damn proud of them!

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
May I ask... what the hell are you talking about?

:confused:

:confused: :confused:

Just reminiscing a bit.

I'm confused that you're confused.

Ask me a specific question, and I'll do my best to answer. I can't promise satisfaction, but I'll try.

[Lord Kenneth]

I don't understand... are you calling atheism a faith? Huh?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
That said, I have noticed that in general the bitterest and nastiest Atheists are the ex-Catholics and ex-Christain-fundies.

That's a good observation, but I think there are excellent reasons for that. When you have an ideal that is destroyed for whatever reason, of course you'll be bitter and perhaps nasty. Particularly with Christianity. They claim to follow Love, but so many Christians aren't even close and are in fact diabolical. The past is tough to forget, and tougher to forgive.

-Elliot

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
I don't understand... are you calling atheism a faith? Huh?

OK, the non-faith of my father. The point is I have returned to my early non-religious training after trying the other and rejecting it.

That's the point of the quotation marks. Get it, huh, huh, huh? :rolleyes:

I don't know how you came to your non-faith, but I was brought up in it, tried the other, and came back.

What's your story? No implied criticism.

[kourama]

Speaking as a former christian who is still working to overcome bitterness, I can understand why people carry chips on their choulder long after they've freed themselves from the clutches of religion.

I still feel my identity threatened around people who assume I'm christian or otherwise religious and sometimes try too hard to make sure that I'm not lumped in with that group.

The scars last a long, long time.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
I don't understand... are you calling atheism a faith? Huh?
He was speaking metaphorically. One clue is the fact that he put "faith" in quotes. Another clue is just the entire tone of the post.

I expected better literacy skills from you, Kenneth.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Yahzi

He was speaking metaphorically. One clue is the fact that he put "faith" in quotes. Another clue is just the entire tone of the post.

I expected better literacy skills from you, Kenneth.


What, are you against me now, too?

I wasn't sure if he meant that or not. Calling atheism a "faith", is like referring to bald as a "hair color".

I know what he meant, but still...

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth



What, are you against me now, too?

I wasn't sure if he meant that or not. Calling atheism a "faith", is like referring to bald as a "hair color".

I know what he meant, but still...


The phrase "faith of my father" is from an old hymn. I was taking off from that. My actual father was a Atheist, and I am now maybe not quite an Atheist but certainly a rejector of the claims of any religion. I certainly do not worship or pray.

Have you ever prayed? I don't mean merely reciting formulas, but praying believing in it?

It really does feel like you are talking to someone. You stop doing it when you realize no one is listening.

The point is that I was raised an Atheist, unlike most of the Atheists here. Questioned it, came back. It doesn't seem to be the same thing as being raised as a religious pazuki and abandoning it.

No pose of superiority, just an observation.

By the way, a bald man still has (by courtesy) the same hair color that he had when he still had hair. Even if for whatever reason he no longer has eyebrows, a beard, chest, body, armpit, and crotch hair.

If he (or she come to think of it) never had any hair at all, the hair color is "invisible", but that's still a hair color.

In much the same way the Invisible Pink Unicorn is still pink despite the spell of invisibility she has cast upon herself. Just as I still have a red beard although I shave it.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth



What, are you against me now, too?

I wasn't sure if he meant that or not. Calling atheism a "faith", is like referring to bald as a "hair color".

I know what he meant, but still...

OH! So now you're making fun of my hair color?!

[Sindai]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
The fact that the universe has a definite beginning in time gives me pause.

Not necessarily. The big bang may also have been the beginning of time itself.

[Rayn]

I was raised as a Presbyterian by my still deeply religious family. Eventually I just stopped attending church, and when I went away to college, there wasn't any looming threat of church on Sunday. Plus, I was beginning to have some issues with the contradictions and unanswered questions I had, so I pulled away, plus my philosophy/biology studies in college definitely helped move me away from organized religion.

However, I still am a spiritual person, and believe that I can find the answers to the universe through personal insight. Though, in some ways that makes me a follower of religion (such as with Christ's Gnostic Gospels, Buddhism, etc.), I prefer to find my own path where that is concerned. I will grant that many ex-Xians, or any ex-religious types are usually the most vehement atheists, I was like that at one point as well. For me, it was a lashing out at being forced to undergo these rituals for so long, and not being told the whole truth, the history behind such movements, etc. I eventually came to peace with it through finding that many people need spirituality, and all the atheism and scientism in the world isn't going to get rid of it. My spirituality is intensely personal, and I have no need to defend it in any way, which is one of the faults I find with many religious types, those people who feel they must make their faith stand up to the scrutiny of science. How absurd.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Rayn

However, I still am a spiritual person...

I have heard this many times and I still attach no meaning to it. What exactly does "spiritual" mean (yes I have a dictionary) and what is a spiritual person?

Have you rejected religion but believe in crystal gazing or some such, like some of the "not religious, but spiritual" folks I have encountered? I think not, based on the rest of what you have said.

I don't know what a spiritual person is, but I have the intuition that I am not one. What is one, eh?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Rayn
However, I still am a spiritual person, and believe that I can find the answers to the universe through personal insight.

I have a problem with 'spirituality'. What does that mean? Does it have to do with spirits? Does it have to do with belief in anything watching over you? I can go inside myself, but that couldn't be spirituality. If one has no religion - I don't understand spirituality.


I believe we are some mightly lucky bacteria, on a well-positioned planet, that managed to grow a brain and stand upright. When we die - that's it. Will we be reunited with the energy of the universe? Sure! But who cares? Live today like there's no tomorrow.

[Rayn]

Abdul, triadboy:

Well, I can't exactly describe "spirituality" as far as it feels for me, but I'll give it a shot. I just believe there is something greater than me (the Universe) and that I am fundamentally a part of it, that it is a beautiful thing that I will return to when I die.

I don't believe in "crystal gazing" or new age stuff, but I do believe that rituals are an important thing, especially when they are personal. From a Tom Robbins book, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues:

"I believe in everything, nothing is sacred.
...
I believe in nothing, everything is sacred."

Everyone can choose what they value or not, but it is part of the same coin. I believe such dichotomies are part of our life, but they are essentially a singularity, two sides of the same coin. I have no real vocabulary that I can use to describe it, but I try and feel content. I don't know about "life after death," and what-not, but I don't discount them as impossibilities. However, I still am a wuss when it comes to death, my ego is an attention-whore, but I do believe there is a point where you can be peaceful.

I suppose I just believe that "spirituality" would be based upon one's own value systems, and the ritualistic actions used to honor them. It should be personal, but many feel the need to share it, be a part of something more tangibly greater, like a congregation. I don't feel such a need, but I feel I am trying to really feel a part of a whole, instead of a separate observor. Just my opinions on the subject.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth

What, are you against me now, too?

Hmm, creeping paranoia. Just because I point out when you are being a jerk doesn't make me against you. I only do it because I know you can do better.

If you knew what he meant, then why did you ask for clarification?

Lighten up, already.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Rayn
Well, I can't exactly describe "spirituality"...
Your description seems a lot like saying: "I have an emotional relationship with the universe."

Kids have emotional relationships with inanimate objects like teddy bears. They do this by projecting personas (thoughts and feelings) onto the object. This is normal and healthy for children, a form of play that is really practice for dealing with real people.

However, when you grow up and become an adult, you are supposed to stop projecting.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


The point is that I was raised an Atheist, unlike most of the Atheists here. Questioned it, came back. It doesn't seem to be the same thing as being raised as a religious pazuki and abandoning it.



Not raised as such, but my maternal Grandfather (with whom I lived for a while) and my mother were both firmly atheist. There was never any discussion about it, just god was something that other people believed in, like Astrology or UFOs. I was essentially left entirely to make up my own mind, which I did.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Rayn
I just believe there is something greater than me (the Universe) and that I am fundamentally a part of it, that it is a beautiful thing that I will return to when I die.

Will you remember anything. If not, it's a moot point.

Everyone can choose what they value or not, but it is part of the same coin. I believe such dichotomies are part of our life, but they are essentially a singularity, two sides of the same coin. I have no real vocabulary that I can use to describe it, but I try and feel content. I don't know about "life after death," and what-not, but I don't discount them as impossibilities. However, I still am a wuss when it comes to death, my ego is an attention-whore, but I do believe there is a point where you can be peaceful.

I suppose I just believe that "spirituality" would be based upon one's own value systems, and the ritualistic actions used to honor them. It should be personal, but many feel the need to share it, be a part of something more tangibly greater, like a congregation. I don't feel such a need, but I feel I am trying to really feel a part of a whole, instead of a separate observor. Just my opinions on the subject.

This is easy...you are a Gnostic. Go buy JESUS AND THE LOST GODDESS by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy. You will love it. I'm reading it now and you are the poster child.

In a nutshell:

The original xians were gnostics. The Jesus story is allegory. He is born in a cave representing the cosmos. He is resurrected from a cave representing his 'escape' from the cosmos.

To a normal joe - we are part of an eternal cosmos. But to a Gnostic, WE are eternal and the cosmos passes through us! The Jesus story is allegorically showing Jesus becoming eternal by realizing his god-hood - and at the same time teaching us we are gods too. The Jesus story was meant for psychic initiates. These are the beginners who receive a story and contemplate upon it (Outer mystery). They read about the dying god-man. However the next step teaches them that they ARE the dying god-man (Inner mystery).

There are many gnostic writings. The problem with xianity is - they selected 4 writings and positioned them in history. - and never received the inner mystery teachings.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by triadboy
I believe we are some mightly lucky bacteria, on a well-positioned planet, that managed to grow a brain and stand upright.

I'm a mighty lucky bacterium on a well positioned planet,
And have to choose between Democrats and Republicans, damn it!

I managed to grow a brain and stand upright,
But still I am uptight. Oh *****!

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

That said, I have noticed that in general the bitterest and nastiest Atheists are the ex-Catholics and ex-Christian-fundies.


The reason for this is simple. Being lied to for such a long time period builds up anger and resentment.

Also, knowing that as a christian it is your "duty" to recruit as many other new suckers as possible (like Amway) and to steer anyone back in who is heading out (again, like Amway). After being a part of this we (I) often feel the need to "repair the damage" and educate those around us.
.

[Rayn]

triadboy said: This is easy...you are a Gnostic. Go buy JESUS AND THE LOST GODDESS by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy. You will love it. I'm reading it now and you are the poster child.

I'll check out the book, I know of the Gnostic Gospels and what not, but I'm interested in learning more. As far as any retention of memory/self after death, I'm unsure of that, hence my comments about being a wuss towards death. I'd like to think that there is such an "after-life," but I can't be sure there is, which scares me, or at least my ego. Anyway, I appreciate your input, thanks for the book, I'll add it to my ever-lengthening list.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Rayn

Anyway, I appreciate your input, thanks for the book, I'll add it to my ever-lengthening list.

Also The Jesus Mysteries by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy.

[Rayn]

Cool thanks.