What is the status of Jones' microspheres ?

[BigAl]

What are the talking points when someone brings up those "microspheres" and the allegation that they prove something about thermate at WTC?

(I tried to put together the answer via search but couldn't find anything specific.)

Has Jones ever released the entire lab report ? If so, what can be said about what it said?

Has any other lab been able to look at a sample?

[T.A.M.]

See posts by CrazyChainsaw and Greening.

There is just as much, if not more, evidence that the microspheres were the result of heat, and the presence of a large amount of organic material (bodies, paper, food) than Thermite. If some ones says this is not true, ask them to prove it...they cannot.

TAM:)

[dudalb]

I love your avatar,Tam.

[Apollo20]

I e-mailed Dr. Jones about the status of his microsphere research about a month ago and received no reply.

However, I notice he has recently published an EDX spectrum described as "Sphere from TruthBurn thermite reaction". The spectrum shows Fe, Al, Si as major constituents and K, Ca, Mg, Na, etc as minor constituents. (And no S, by the way!)

The published figure is accompanied by a caption that reads: "High Fe, Al, Si also seen routinely in WTC spheres"

This is very interesting because, as best I recall, all the WTC sphere spectra previously published by Jones did NOT show Si as a major peak. Now, all of a sudden, Si is "routinely" seen in WTC EDX spectra.

This change is very significant because I have wondered about the absence of Si in Jones' previous results, because Si is commonly seen in certain types of microspheres I have been looking at as a possible natural explanation of the WTC spheres....

Now, since the WTC spheres "routinely" contan Si, perhaps I have an answer!

P.S.

TAM: Please do NOT ask me to elaborate on this...

[MikeW]

Has any other lab been able to look at a sample?
That's what I'd like to know. He said that was going to happen, from memory, but...?

[Alferd_Packer]

Cliff Carnicom has a neat little lab in his kitchen he uses to analyze chemtrails with. Maybe Jones can send some there.

[Mr. Skinny]

(snip0
Has any other lab been able to look at a sample?
When Apollo20 first mentioned the iron spherules here, I offered to put him in touch with individuals at a government research lab who could analyze the samples. I never got a response from him, and frankly, his later behavior on here became a little disconcerting, so I let it drop.

[Apollo20]

When I saw the behavior of Tam, Enigma, Pardalis, Gravy, Rwguinn, LashL, etc,
I let it drop too......
do not change other members user names as a petty insult. It's childish and against the rules. Please remember to be civil and polite

[boloboffin]

Still micro, still spheres, still [rule10].

[Mr. Skinny]

When I saw the behavior of Tam, Enigma, Pardalis, Gravy, Rwguinn, Lashill, etc,
I let it drop too......
OK. Well, since I didn't specifically say it earlier, I withdraw the offer, but what does the behavior of TAM, Enigma, Pardalis, Gravy, Rwguinn, LashL, etc. have to do with me? :confused:

[T.A.M.]

Decided to go for cranky obnoxiousness this time did you Frank?

So now asking someone with knowledge that exceeds mine in a particular area is to be avoided is it???

P.S.

TAM: Please do NOT ask me to elaborate on this...

Now suddenly my comments are to be scorned, or considered worthy of making you "drop" the issue?

Any chance you want to elaborate on what about my posting content or style you find so annoying as to make such comments?

TAM

[Apollo20]

Mr. Skinny/Mr. TAM:

Please try to stay on topic........

[T.A.M.]

I love your avatar,Tam.

Well I changed from the kool-vax due to someone having an issue with the needle aspect of it. I changed from the Braveheart-Vendetta hybrid as it seemed to scare people (perhaps they wrongfully thought I might be sliding into Woo). So this seems to best reflect my present position...lol

Glad you like it...thanks.

TAM:)

[Mr. Skinny]

Decided to go for cranky obnoxiousness this time did you Frank?

So now asking someone with knowledge that exceeds mine in a particular area is to be avoided is it???


Now suddenly my comments are to be scorned, or considered worthy of making you "drop" the issue?

Any chance you want to elaborate on what about my posting content or style you find so annoying as to make such comments?

TAM
Coming on the heels of my post, I'm curious as well, TAM. I happen to think you strive to be level-headed and polite.

I'm curious as to what Apollo20's problem is with you (and me).

[Apollo20]

Again, gentlemen, I ask you to stay on topic.... please!

[dudalb]

Well I changed from the kool-vax due to someone having an issue with the needle aspect of it. I changed from the Braveheart-Vendetta hybrid as it seemed to scare people (perhaps they wrongfully thought I might be sliding into Woo). So this seems to best reflect my present position...lol

Glad you like it...thanks.

TAM:)

I am just so sick of seeing every Internet Anarchist and Wannabe Revolutionary use the image of Guy Fawkes from "V For Vendetta" as his emblem. It has lost whatever cool factor it ever had and has become a tired cliche.
Now I might use a good avatar of Night Owl from Moore's "Watchmen" if one becomes available and the film is any good....

[Mr. Skinny]

Again, gentlemen, I ask you to stay on topic.... please!
You, sir, are the one that took the thread off topic.

ETA: I admit to contributing to the derail as well, and I'll drop it, or start a new thread.

Apologies to the forum.

[einsteen]

Could someone give examples of physical/chemical processes in which these special kind of sphericules are formed ? I know nothing about the subject and would like to have experts opinions instead of googling my ass off, Apollo20 has the credentials to comment on them.

[T.A.M.]

Mr. Skinny/Mr. TAM:

Please try to stay on topic........

mr. greening, please do the same. You brought it out of topic with your comments...TWICE.

TAM

[dudalb]

As for Moore's microspherers,they remain as nonsensical as ever,guarantted to cause laughter in any first year college level science class.

[Mr. Skinny]

mr. greening, please do the same. You brought it out of topic with your comments...TWICE.

TAM
I was the first to discuss Dr. Greening's behavior.

I apologize.

Let's drop it and stay on topic.

[T.A.M.]

I would stay on topic but mr. Greening has asked that I not ask him to elaborate, so what next??

TAM:)

[Mr. Skinny]

I would stay on topic but mr. Greening has asked that I not ask him to elaborate, so what next??

TAM:)
I know!

Apollo20,

Could you elaborate on your previous (on-topic) post and explain to us non-chemists what it all means, and what your "answer" might be?

[Apollo20]

Einsteen:

I would be pleased to discuss the microspheres with you since you are a scholar and a gentleman, but perhaps PHYSORG would be a more appropriate venue. The posters here appear to want to discuss avatars and their personal opinions of my behavior. Too bad!

I will say that the iron-rich microspheres provide evidence of molten iron, which, in turn, is evidence of very high temperatures. The chemical signature of the other (non-ferrous) elements in the spheres is key to understanding their origin.

[beachnut]

Einsteen:

I would be pleased to discuss the microspheres with you since you are a scholar and a gentleman, but perhaps PHYSORG would be a more appropriate venue. The posters here appear to want to discuss avatars and their personal opinions of my behavior. Too bad!

I will say that the iron-rich microspheres provide evidence of molten iron, which, in turn, is evidence of very high temperatures. The chemical signature of the other (non-ferrous) elements in the spheres is key to understanding their origin.
But they have nothing to do with proving the idiot ideas of 9/11 truth. Zip. So in a real world talking about avatars is an order of magnitude more real than Jones's ideas on 9/11. Simple! You really do not need a PhD to understand 9/11! In fact, based on the opinions posted by PhDs, I have to say any lay person can beat the insights of a PhD, and all of 9/11 truth.

Your behavior is self critiquing. Why not recite the alcohols from memory for us and be useful.

Please do not list the origins of a micro sphere piece of iron found in some dust in some apartment and ignore the leap to thermite by Jones, who ideas on 9/11 are pure nuts. He just made it up after 4 years for some perverted biased idea; is he a PhD?

[PhantomWolf]

I see someone forgot to have their coffee this morning.

[Max Photon]

Einsteen:

I would be pleased to discuss the microspheres with you since you are a scholar and a gentleman, but perhaps PHYSORG would be a more appropriate venue. The posters here appear to want to discuss avatars and their personal opinions of my behavior. Too bad!

I will say that the iron-rich microspheres provide evidence of molten iron, which, in turn, is evidence of very high temperatures. The chemical signature of the other (non-ferrous) elements in the spheres is key to understanding their origin.


A little clarification please...

Do all of the spheres have the same composition, or are there different types of microspheres?

In other words, are some of the microspheres metallic, and others glassy?

I thought it was the latter.

Doesn't Steven Jones discuss vesicular silicates?


Also, does anyone know the melting and boiling temperatures of the custom WTC window glass (or at least their composition)?


Max

* * *

[bofors]

See posts by CrazyChainsaw and Greening.

There is just as much, if not more, evidence that the microspheres were the result of heat, and the presence of a large amount of organic material (bodies, paper, food) than Thermite. If some ones says this is not true, ask them to prove it...they cannot.

TAM:)

That is just ridiculous.

Please tell us what your experience (or the posters you cite) is in analytical chemistry?

[PhantomWolf]

That is just ridiculous.

Please tell us what your experience (or the posters you cite) is in analytical chemistry?

Well for me it's what I come out of University with and what I did in my first job till I got sick of it and switched to computers, other than that, Crazy Chainsaw actually is mad enough to recreate WTC like events in his backyard including the burning of Aluminium, water, and steel to create explosions. His experiments are what resulted in the production of mircospheres similar to those Jones found and he used organic matter to do it. He started with blood as that was what we'd discussed, but then moved on to test all sort of items including plants and ham sandwiches I believe.

What have you done to determine if his results are ridiculous? Oh that's right, you're the one that figures there is no need to know anything about something you don't accept before declaring it so.

[bofors]

However, I notice he has recently published an EDX spectrum described as "Sphere from TruthBurn thermite reaction". The spectrum shows Fe, Al, Si as major constituents and K, Ca, Mg, Na, etc as minor constituents. (And no S, by the way!)

Of coarse Sulfur would not be found in thermite reaction residue, Sulfur is only in thermate. Sulfur is the difference between thermite and thermate.


This change is very significant because I have wondered about the absence of Si in Jones' previous results...

Sorry, the change (if there is even one) is not significant just because you have been wondering about something...

Don't you see how ridiculously egocentric you are?

[PhantomWolf]

Don't you see how ridiculously egocentric you are?

Pot. Keetle. Black.

[brodski]

Will everyone please stop with the personal comments and the discussion of member's personalities. This thread is about Jones and his micro-spheres.

[Sparky]

That is just ridiculous.

Please tell us what your experience (or the posters you cite) is in analytical chemistry?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this but isn't Dr. Greening a chemist?

[DGM]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this but isn't Dr. Greening a chemist?
Yes, I'm not sure he knows he's Apollo 20 also.

[Gravy]

Since these spheres are the expected result of a hot office building fire, I wonder if the people who are interested in them will ever get around to asking people in the know "why?" I've made this suggestion several times over the past 6 months.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Of coarse Sulfur would not be found in thermite reaction residue, Sulfur is only in thermate. Sulfur is the difference between thermite and thermate.
. . .
*cough*bariumnitrate*cough*

[bofors]

I will say that the iron-rich microspheres provide evidence of molten iron, which, in turn, is evidence of very high temperatures. The chemical signature of the other (non-ferrous) elements in the spheres is key to understanding their origin.

The small size of the microspheres and the uniform presence in the WTC dust are by themselves evidence of an explosive blast as well

The atomic composition determined by X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy
(XEDS) shows the spheres were derived from a thermate reaction.

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The small size of the microspheres and the uniform presence in the WTC dust are by themselves evidence of an explosive blast as well

The atomic composition determined by X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy
(XEDS) shows the spheres were derived from a thermate reaction.

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.
Are you implicitly claiming then that both thermate and explosives were used?

[Bell]

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.

Wait! I must of missed that! What other evidence?

[beachnut]

Why do only idiots think micro spheres are evidence of explosives? Bet they are in 9/11 truth. Why? Nut ideas from 9/11 truth; micro spheres.

[boloboffin]

self delete

[bofors]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this but isn't Dr. Greening a chemist?

I see now that I made mistake when reading TAM's post. He said "Greening",
I thought he meant a JREF member named "Greening"... I did not understand that he was referring to Dr. Frank Greening.

Sorry.

I believe Frank Greening has a Ph.D. in physical chemistry. I would assume that he has some experience with analytical chemistry then.

[Bell]

self delete

Omg! Boloboffin has become a troofer. And he allready has his own theory on why the towers collapsed.

[bofors]

Do all of the spheres have the same composition, or are there different types of microspheres?


Basically, yes.


In other words, are some of the microspheres metallic, and others glassy?

I thought it was the latter.


No, all the spheres are metallic, a magnetic is used to seperate them from the dust.

[Sparky]

Yes, I'm not sure he knows he's Apollo 20 also.

So Bofors just questioned a chemist's experience in chemistry.

Sweet...

[bofors]

Are you implicitly claiming then that both thermate and explosives were used?

Yes, it appears that thermate was used to cut and then some explosive was used to blast.

[jhunter1163]

OK, here's a question from a non-chemist. Dr. Greening says that the spherules are iron-rich. Is it possible that this is because they were heated to a temperature that would cause other elements in the spherules to separate/vaporize, leaving spherules enriched in iron?

[BenBurch]

Basically the microspheres are Jones intentionally committing professional malpractice;


No chain of custody. They were found in some chick's apartment 100 yards away and long after site demolition had commenced.
He mis-analyzed them, claiming they were thermite, which they aren't, and then to rescue that position claiming thermate. Despite the fact that there is no Barium Nitrate in it, which either of those require, and that the site was full of sulfur in the form of pulverized and burnt wallboard.


BYU (not known for their lack of woo) fired him.

[bofors]

So Bofors just questioned a chemist's experience in chemistry.

Sweet...

Well, I did not mean to... but so what?

Of course, I am going to question Dr. Greening experience in analytical chemistry.

Where is his academic resume?

Personally, I spent a good five years working in one of the best materials analysis laboratories on the planet, the University of Michigan, Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory (EMAL): http://www.emal.engin.umich.edu/

[Max Photon]

* * *

For everyone's viewing pleasure:

USGS ATLAS OF WTC DUST (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/table_1.html)


* * *

[bofors]

OK, here's a question from a non-chemist. Dr. Greening says that the spherules are iron-rich. Is it possible that this is because they were heated to a temperature that would cause other elements in the spherules to separate/vaporize, leaving spherules enriched in iron?

No, not to any significance. The question is where does this iron come from in the first place.

[Sparky]

Personally, I spent a good five years working in one of the best materials analysis laboratories on the planet, the University of Michigan, Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory (EMAL): http://www.emal.engin.umich.edu/

May I ask what duties you actually performed there?

[Good Lt]

Yes, it appears that thermate was used to cut and then some explosive was used to blast.

No, it doesn't.

[bofors]

No chain of custody. They were found in some chick's apartment 100 yards away and long after site demolition had commenced.


If you have an alternative source of WTC dust, please let us all know.


He mis-analyzed them, claiming they were thermite, which they aren't, and then to rescue that position claiming thermate. Despite the fact that there is no Barium Nitrate in it, which either of those require, and that the site was full of sulfur in the form of pulverized and burnt wallboard.


You seem to be ignoring the big picture and focusing on a hand full irrelevant details (which is typical of "debunkers" here).

Do you have any personal experience with analytical chemistry?

[BenBurch]

* * *

For everyone's viewing pleasure:

USGS ATLAS OF WTC DUST (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/table_1.html)


* * *

Thanks, Max!

That pretty much lays to rest any thoughts that Jone's analysis is correct.

[Mr. Skinny]

The small size of the microspheres and the uniform presence in the WTC dust are by themselves evidence of an explosive blast as well
They are, by themselves, evidence of small spheres.

The atomic composition determined by X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy
(XEDS) shows the spheres were derived from a thermate reaction.
For us non-scientists, is XEDS data qualitative or quantative?

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.
Just take it easy now...

[T.A.M.]

Like I said, ask for proof that the iron microspheres COULD NOT have been produced by a combination of iron/steel, heat, and organic materials (such as bodies, paper, food, etc...)
If they cannot provide proof that the spheres COULD NOT have come from such, than what does OCCAM tell you GENTLEMEN?

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

* * *

Bofors,

With all due respect, I believe it is a mistake to assume that if thermite or thermate were used at the WTCs, that it was used to cut or melt steel.

The thermite/thermate could have been used to heat-weaken the steel, at less than 1/2 the melting temperature of steel.

There is no evidence of melting steel in the FEMA photos of Ground Zero.

- - -

Gravy,

Are you claiming that the office fires produced molten iron?

What is the source of the iron?

And are you saying the office fires were over 1536 Celsius?

- - -

I hope everyone paid attention to Apollo20's point that the iron microspheres are direct evidence of molten iron.

And I hope everyone gets it that MAX-MIHOP explains the presence of molten iron.


Max

* * *

[DGM]

If you have an alternative source of WTC dust, please let us all know.



You seem to be ignoring the big picture and focusing on a hand full irrelevant details (which is typical of "debunkers" here).

Do you have any personal experience with analytical chemistry?


There's no irony meter strong enough for this.:boggled:

[bofors]

May I ask what duties you actually performed there?

I did not have any "duties" at EMAL.

EMAL was a labortory that I used to perform my research.

While I used partically every piece of EMAL instrumentation available, my work was primarily Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM).

I studied genetically engineered silk-like protein polymers.

[BenBurch]

If you have an alternative source of WTC dust, please let us all know.

Nope, but that doesn't excuse him for using trash and presenting it as a valid sample.

You seem to be ignoring the big picture and focusing on a hand full irrelevant details (which is typical of "debunkers" here).

Mind explaining that?

Do you have any personal experience with analytical chemistry?

Lots.

I helped design the fully automated bomb calorimeter that most coal mines use, for example, and have worked as a industrial plastics chemist. I know how to run spectrographs, gas chromatographs, and electrophoresis equipment.

I've built amateur liquid fueled rocket motors. (And destroyed them in testing. I still have scars from one that had a "hard start".)

I've also made and detonated many pounds of explosives and thermite just for my own amusement.

[T.A.M.]

excellent. Another chemist among us.

TAM:)

[leftysergeant]

The small size of the microspheres and the uniform presence in the WTC dust are by themselves evidence of an explosive blast as well

And you can post a refererence to the fact that they were uniformly distributed and the spherules were of equal size? If no, WRONG.

There are other ways that the spheres can be formed. Like welding. You do know what welding is, don't you? Joining two pieces of metal by melting the edges and filling in the gaps with a little extra metal? You might ask some blue-collar worker down the street from you to explain the concept. I'm not a welder myself, but have had a lot of contact with them, both as a fire fighter and as an occassional construction laborer. You never get rid of all of the dust it creates from a construction site.

The atomic composition determined by X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy
(XEDS) shows the spheres were derived from a thermate reaction.

How does this process distinguish between those sphereules produced by thermite and those produced by wleding?

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.

There being no positive proof of explosive demolition, you then have bugger all.

Oh, and about the sulphur? It's part of the buildings in their normal state.

Have you any idea what calcium sulphate is?

[bofors]

For us non-scientists, is XEDS data qualitative or quantative?

The data itself is explictly quantitative, we are talking about numerical intensities of radiation at specific numerical wavelengths.

However, interpreting analytical data can be more of a qualitative process. There are often mirror discrepancies and one needs to know what is important and what it not.

[BenBurch]

For us non-scientists, is XEDS data qualitative or quantative?


Well, I did software for an imaging x-ray diffraction spectrometer system. It is quantitative, but only with respect to the surface layers. And it can make you a map of the surface chemistry.

But as we were selling into the semiconductor industry, and doping effects the surface layers, this was the proper tool.

[BenBurch]

excellent. Another chemist among us.

TAM:)

More a physicist. But I've never let qualifications or lack thereof stop me from trying for a job.

[bofors]

Like I said, ask for proof that the iron microspheres COULD NOT have been produced by a combination of iron/steel, heat, and organic materials (such as bodies, paper, food, etc...)

The proof you ask for is quite obvious, even NIST admits the fires were not hot enough to melt the steel which is necessary for the formation of microspheres.

In fact, NIST denies the existence of molten steel metal entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihj-Kz9wjY

[T.A.M.]

For those who wish to see what has already been said here on this issue, including some good points from CC, go here...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91019

TAM:)

[BenBurch]

The proof you ask for is quite obvious, even NIST admits the fires were not hot enough to melt the steel which is necessary for the formation of microspheres.

In fact, NIST denies the existence of molten steel metal entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihj-Kz9wjY

I think you need to learn a little about what happens when you smack materials around as hard as they were on that day in the presence of very hot fires.

Try this. Visit a Smithy. Take samples of the dust on the floor near the anvil. Report back what you find if you are still interested after you learn what you are going to learn.

No molten ANYTHING at a Smithy.

Except maybe in the coffeepot. But the contents of that might be another Conspiracy Theory waiting to happen. :D

[Sparky]

Do you have any personal experience with analytical chemistry?

I think you've tried the argument from authority routine already.

Can you tell me how the uniform size and dispersion of the microspheres are proof of controlled demolition? Please connect all the dots for me (if possible).

Can you also explain how your vast knowledge of protein polymers fits in with CD scenario?

[Bell]

Bofors, I think you missed my post:

Taken with the other evidence of controlled demolition, this proves beyond any doubt that the WTC buildings were destroyed by explosives.

Wait! I must of missed that! What other evidence?

[Mr. Skinny]

The data itself is explictly quantitative, we are talking about numerical intensities of radiation at specific numerical wavelengths.
Sorry, bofors, but that came across as a bit of word salad for me.

Does the process deliver results that say, for example: Pb = 11.2%, or does it just say: Pb, or perhaps Pb = High?

However, interpreting analytical data can be more of a qualitative process. There are often mirror discrepancies and one needs to know what is important and what it not.
For now, erm...I'm just trying to learn if XEDS will give you results similar to an XRF.

Maybe I should just look it up myself.

Thanks anyhow, bofors.

[BenBurch]

I think you've tried the argument from authority routine already.

Can you tell me how the uniform size and dispersion of the microspheres are proof of controlled demolition? Please connect all the dots for me (if possible).

Can you also explain how your vast knowledge of protein polymers fits in with CD scenario?

I almost called him on that fallacy, but he had asked the wrong nerd if he ever did any analytical chemistry.

[bofors]

And you can post a refererence to the fact that they were uniformly distributed and the spherules were of equal size? If no, WRONG.

From my experience trying produce uniform microspheres of protein-polymers, I would expect a normal, Gaussian distribution, bell-curve:

http://zoonek2.free.fr/UNIX/48_R/g587.png

[leftysergeant]

The proof you ask for is quite obvious, even NIST admits the fires were not hot enough to melt the steel which is necessary for the formation of microspheres.

In fact, NIST denies the existence of molten steel metal entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihj-Kz9wjY

Stop dodging. I asked you what rules out the spherules as a by-product of welding?

Steel was melted all over the place during the CONSTRUCTION of the towers. Why are you disregarding this possible source or showing how it is eliminated by you ray gun examination.

This is not rocket science I am talking about, but you seem to have rocket-science-quality instruments at your disposal, so you have no excuse.

Cough up the disproof that these are not welding residues.

(BTW, I don't recall seeing any sign of Crazy Chainsaw lately. Hope nothing bad has happened to him. He does live, shall we say, on the edge sometimes.)

(Come to think of it, sometimes it seems he is trying to live up to his screen name.)

[DGM]

I think you need to learn a little about what happens when you smack materials around as hard as they were on that day in the presence of very hot fires.

Try this. Visit a Smithy. Take samples of the dust on the floor near the anvil. Report back what you find if you are still interested after you learn what you are going to learn.

No molten ANYTHING at a Smithy.

Except maybe in the coffeepot. But the contents of that might be another Conspiracy Theory waiting to happen. :D

I can send a whole barrel full from my shop! Or he could go scooping around any construction site where steel is being erected.:D

[BenBurch]

bofors, we all had high school statistics and know what a gaussian function looks like.

What you were ASKED was to provide the data on your spherules. Not a graph of a function. That isn't data.

[BenBurch]

Lefty, indeed welding and cutting create such spheres. As does Smithing. As does metallic brake shoes. Basically any place where you have hot or distressed metal and glowing sparks are struck, the end product is usually a spherule.

[Mr. Skinny]

I almost called him on that fallacy, but he had asked the wrong nerd if he ever did any analytical chemistry.
I don't know gobs about chemistry, but I've been working with analytical chemists, polymer chemists, composites chemists, metallurgists, ceramics engineers, foundrymen, etc. for over 30 years.

I can find someone to answer a question within a few phone calls or a walk down a few hallways.

[BenBurch]

I don't know gobs about chemistry, but I've been working with analytical chemists, polymer chemists, composites chemists, metallurgists, ceramics engineers, foundrymen, etc. for over 30 years.

I can find someone to answer a question within a few phone calls or a walk down a few hallways.

I don't claim to be an expert. Just that I know how to proceed and where to look things up! :)

[Bell]

From my experience trying produce uniform microspheres of protein-polymers, I would expect a normal, Gaussian distribution, bell-curve:

Leave my curves out of this, will you?

[dudalb]

Nope, but that doesn't excuse him for using trash and presenting it as a valid sample.



Mind explaining that?



Lots.

I helped design the fully automated bomb calorimeter that most coal mines use, for example, and have worked as a industrial plastics chemist. I know how to run spectrographs, gas chromatographs, and electrophoresis equipment.

I've built amateur liquid fueled rocket motors. (And destroyed them in testing. I still have scars from one that had a "hard start".)

I've also made and detonated many pounds of explosives and thermite just for my own amusement.

Ever do anything with CIvil War Era Cannons? As a reenactor, I can say there is nothing like the smell of Black Powder in the Morning, It's The Smell of..of..VICTORY!

[pomeroo]

Of coarse Sulfur would not be found in thermite reaction residue, Sulfur is only in thermate. Sulfur is the difference between thermite and thermate.




Sorry, the change (if there is even one) is not significant just because you have been wondering about something...

Don't you see how ridiculously egocentric you are?


I am writing this response as I read, so I do not yet know how many other posters will advise you to read Dr. Greening's paper on sulfur (available on 911myths.com, in the section "Investigations, more"--not that you have the slightest intention of doing so, of course).

Your last sentence would be ironic if fantasists understood the concept.

[pomeroo]

Yes, it appears that thermate was used to cut and then some explosive was used to blast.



No, actually it appears nothing of the sort. But you already knew that.

[PhantomWolf]

You seem to be ignoring the big picture and focusing on a hand full irrelevant details (which is typical of "debunkers" here).

I can't believe you said this. Scientists live on the details, they are what make and break your theory. As people here are fond of saying, the devil is in the details. You can't look at the big picture until you have deal with the details. The fact that a major component of Thermate (Barium Nitrate) was missing and the elements that Jones identified (Fe, Al, Mn, S) are all found in common building materials which were used in the WTC, that's a big detail. I could get dust from nearly any building on the planet to have a similar chemical analysis to Thermate simply because they contain the same staff, that doesn't make them the same though any more that a person and an apple are the same because their elemental compositions are similar.

Do you have any personal experience with analytical chemistry?

Would you like me to repeat my previous post on this?

[BenBurch]

Ever do anything with CIvil War Era Cannons? As a reenactor, I can say there is nothing like the smell of Black Powder in the Morning, It's The Smell of..of..VICTORY!

No, but I love black powder arms!

[rwguinn]

OK, here's a question from a non-chemist. Dr. Greening says that the spherules are iron-rich. Is it possible that this is because they were heated to a temperature that would cause other elements in the spherules to separate/vaporize, leaving spherules enriched in iron?
Ok--
Now, anybody want to take a guess at what the majority element of steel is?

[rwguinn]

Ever do anything with CIvil War Era Cannons? As a reenactor, I can say there is nothing like the smell of Black Powder in the Morning, It's The Smell of..of..VICTORY!
I prefer the week living in a tipi, wearing dead animals, throwing knives and 'hawks, and placing in the middle of the pack with a flintlock...

[leftysergeant]

Okay, cut the pseudo-intellectual crap and tell this old working schlub fire fighter what you think distinguishes the sphereules from welding residue.

It has also occurred to me more than once that there are aircraft oxygen generators that burn various chemical compounds, some of which contain aluminum, to release 02. Has anybody looked at the pssobility that such may have contributed some of tha Al-rich sphereules?

[Gravy]

Ok--
Now, anybody want to take a guess at what the majority element of steel is?Thermate?

[BenBurch]

Thermate?

:hit:

[rwguinn]

:rolleyes::mgduh
Thermate?


The Dark Side is smothered in Gravy...:alien011:

[Apollo20]

I believe that Max P. is correct about there being two types of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust. But Jones has tended to focus on the ones with Fe and S, and without Si. The Fe/O/S spheres are partially oxidized metallic particles and are magnetic. I think the ones with Si would be glassy and probably non-magnetic. The EDX spectrum published by Jones for the "TruthBurn thermite reaction" appears to be Fe and Si-rich and I suspect it too is from a glassy particle. This being the case then it is probably flyash similar to figure 577 in McCrone's Electron Microscopy Particle Atlas. This is ash from an incinerator that was burning mostly wood, paper, plastic and other organic matter. The presence of potassium is significant since this element is enriched in many types of wood. (I believe the TruthBurn event invoved setting WOOD on fire so the TruthBurn ash is mostly common WOOD ASH containing glassy/amorphous alumino-silicates such as mullite, Al6Si2O13.

[BenBurch]

I can send a whole barrel full from my shop! Or he could go scooping around any construction site where steel is being erected.:D

You wouldn't own a really good digital microscope would you?

We probably need 1000X to see that the specks are round.

The microscopy folks I used to work with got sold and moved to europe, so right now 150X is the best I have here.

[The Almond]

The data itself is explictly quantitative, we are talking about numerical intensities of radiation at specific numerical wavelengths.

I would strongly dispute that statement. Intensity, measured as the integral of a region of interest, is no more quantitative (in the sense that it has no bearing on actual weight percent composition) than looking at your foot and trying to determine if it is "big."

Quantification of EDS spectra involves, in its simplest form, five steps:
1) Deconvolution of the region of interest to remove overlap and subtract the background (which often requires extensive modeling of the Bremstrahlung for lighter elements such as oxygen)
2) Integration of deconvolved peak
4) Determination of the k-ratio, which is the ratio of the peak integral of the experimental data to some known standard.
5) Correction of the k-ratios of all of the peaks present in a spectrum for the effects of atomic number, absorption and fluorescence. These corrections are collectively known as ZAF corrections, and they are frequently handled by software such as CITZAF, written by John T. Armstrong from the California Institute of Technology.

The point is that, while EDS data can be quantitative, it requires processing and comparison to known standards to be so.

Generally speaking, EDS data are best for qualitative determinations of the composition of the sample. It is possible to identify the elements present in a sample surface without knowing anything about the actual composition of the sample. This stands in stark contrast to a complimentary technique known as Wavelength Dispersive Spectroscopy. WDS is widely considered to be the better quantitative analysis technique. But due to limitations in Bragg's law, you really have to know something about the sample first in order to select the proper crystal to diffract the X-rays of interest.

However, interpreting analytical data can be more of a qualitative process. There are often mirror discrepancies and one needs to know what is important and what it not.

Again, it might be semantic, but I would contend that qualitative analysis aims to determine if an element is present or not. That being said, idiots, like Stephen Jones, misinterpret the data all the time.

Sorry, bofors, but that came across as a bit of word salad for me.

Does the process deliver results that say, for example: Pb = 11.2%, or does it just say: Pb, or perhaps Pb = High?

Referring to my comments above, Mr. Skinny, both are correct. It's just that the quantitative result takes a lot of work and isn't quite as accurate as wavelength dispersive spectroscopy. I would also add that making an analysis based entirely upon peak integral as to what is more or less is fraught with danger. Heavier elements, such as lead and bismuth, tend to absorb lighter elements, despite the fact that their overvoltage is not as great. That means that, while the lead peak might be smaller than the silicon peak, it does not mean there is more silicon in the sample than lead.

For now, erm...I'm just trying to learn if XEDS will give you results similar to an XRF.

Maybe I should just look it up myself.

Thanks anyhow, bofors.

X-ray fluorescence will yield a very similar result to electron probe microanalysis. In one instance, the rapid deceleration of an electron by a sample will cause the photoelectric absorption and emission of a characteristic X-ray. In the case of XRF, an incident beam of X-ray photons will undergo a process of photoelectric absorption and emission to produce a characteristic X-ray.

Fluoresced X-rays can be analyzed in two ways:
1) In an energy dispersive mode with a silicon lithium or silicon drift detector
2) In a wavelength dispersive mode with an appropriate crystal (TAP, LIF, LDEB1, LDEB2, etc.)

The principle advantage to XRF is that there is no bremstrahlung background, meaning that modeling and background correction are much simpler. This allows for much lower detection limits than are seen in traditional electron probe excited X-ray analysis.

The drawback to XRF is beam size and interaction volume. As a general rule, electrons and X-rays excited by electron photoelectric interaction, come from an area usually less than 10 microns in diameter, and less than 10 microns deep. XRF beams range anywhere from about 10 microns to 1 millimeter in diameter, with massive penetration into the sample. For that reason, XRF is traditionally viewed as a bulk analytical method.

If you're interested in both methods, I can suggest Scanning Electron Microscopy and X-ray Microanalysis by Goldstein, Newbury, Joy, et al. and X-ray Fluorescence by Ron Jenkins. Both books are extremely accessible, well referenced, and widely regarded in the microanalytical community.

This is an interesting side note: Today, November 8th, was the day that Roentgen discovered the X-ray.

[LashL]

Stop dodging. I asked you what rules out the spherules as a by-product of welding?

Steel was melted all over the place during the CONSTRUCTION of the towers. Why are you disregarding this possible source or showing how it is eliminated by you ray gun examination.
...




So far as I know, none of the people who have promoted "spherules = evidence of something nefarious" scenarios have ever postulated a credible theory that addresses, let alone refutes, the obvious and likely probability that such spherules were created during the construction of the towers and dislodged by the collapse of the towers.

[Apollo20]

The WTC microspheres do not entirely mimic welding fume in their composition or morphology. For example, please explain the high sulfur .....

[Arus808]

the gypsum that was used in the building?

[Apollo20]

Please read papers by N. T. Jenkins and T. W. Eagar. Welding fume is usually enriched in manganese ferrite, MnFe2O4. Consequently the Mn/Fe ratio is high and is a useful fingerprint for welding debris.

[The Almond]

The WTC microspheres do not entirely mimic welding fume in their composition or morphology. For example, please explain the high sulfur .....

Can you give me the link to where the quantitative analysis was done? I'm curious to know whose method they used to account for particle effects, Armstrong or Small.

[Apollo20]

Arus 808:

Gypsum may be a source of sulfur in the WTC dust, but not in welding fume. Don't foget we are talking about iron that has passed through a liquid state.

[catbasket]

I dunno, maybe I'm too thick to see the reason, but could someone - anyone - explain to me why the evil gubmint that exploderized WTC 1&2 would then bother to crash planes into them?

[Apollo20]

The Almond:

The paper is in the Welding Journal from June 2005. (Sorry, I have no links!).

The authors compared ICPMS, XRF and NAA analytical techniques for GMAW and SMAW fume. (I have used all of these analytical methods ... in fact I was in charge of NAA and XRF for 12 years on my job.)

Of course welding methods were different back in the 60s and 70s.

[Arus808]

Arus 808:

Gypsum may be a source of sulfur in the WTC dust, but not in welding fume. Don't foget we are talking about iron that has passed through a liquid state.


but gypsum, when smashed or destoryed creates huge amounts of dust (as Im experiencing this in our office right now, since they just destroyed two walls that seperated our offices from the office next door).

is it hard to believe that the gypsum dust particles caked themselves onto the steel members of the wtc towers?

[Max Photon]

I believe that Max P. is correct about there being two types of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust. But Jones has tended to focus on the ones with Fe and S, and without Si. The Fe/O/S spheres are partially oxidized metallic particles and are magnetic. I think the ones with Si would be glassy and probably non-magnetic. The EDX spectrum published by Jones for the "TruthBurn thermite reaction" appears to be Fe and Si-rich and I suspect it too is from a glassy particle. This being the case then it is probably flyash similar to figure 577 in McCrone's Electron Microscopy Particle Atlas. This is ash from an incinerator that was burning mostly wood, paper, plastic and other organic matter. The presence of potassium is significant since this element is enriched in many types of wood. (I believe the TruthBurn event invoved setting WOOD on fire so the TruthBurn ash is mostly common WOOD ASH containing glassy/amorphous alumino-silicates such as mullite, Al6Si2O13.


From RJ Lee (http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTCDustSignature_ExpertReport.051304.1646.mp.pdf):

"Additionally, WTC Dust can be differentiated from other building dust on the basis of its unique composition and morphology. WTC Dust Markers exhibit characteristics of particles that have undergone high stress and high temperature. Asbestos in the WTC Dust was reduced to thin bundles and fibrils as opposed to the complex particles found in a building having asbestos-containing surfacing materials. Gypsum in the WTC Dust is finely pulverized to a degree not seen in other building debris. Mineral wool fibers have a short and fractured nature that can be attributed to the catastrophic collapse. Lead was present as ultra fine spherical particles. Some particles show evidence of being exposed to a conflagration such as spherical metals and silicates, and vesicular particles (round open porous structure having a Swiss cheese appearance as a result of boiling and evaporation)."

[bold mine]

ETA: So there are metallic spheres and silicate spheres, which had to pass through a melting phase, AND some of the spheres experienced boiling/evaporation!

Is it getting hot in here?

* * *

[BenBurch]

The WTC microspheres do not entirely mimic welding fume in their composition or morphology. For example, please explain the high sulfur .....

Gypsum wallboard. Note that Jones is doing a SURFACE analysis. It could just be a coating.

[BenBurch]

I dunno, maybe I'm too thick to see the reason, but could someone - anyone - explain to me why the evil gubmint that exploderized WTC 1&2 would then bother to crash planes into them?

Well, I've heard a couple of the stupider twoofers say that the government did it in such a convoluted fashion just so that you'd think that.

Ignoring that such a plot (cast of thousands) could never be pulled off in secrecy.

[BenBurch]

Hmmm--- Just thinking - were any conventional rivets used in the WTC tower construction? You know, the sort you have to place glowing hot so you can form the buck-tail on the other side?

[Max Photon]

From RJ Lee (http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTCDustSignature_ExpertReport.051304.1646.mp.pdf):

"Additionally, WTC Dust can be differentiated from other building dust on the basis of its unique composition and morphology. WTC Dust Markers exhibit characteristics of particles that have undergone high stress and high temperature. Asbestos in the WTC Dust was reduced to thin bundles and fibrils as opposed to the complex particles found in a building having asbestos-containing surfacing materials. Gypsum in the WTC Dust is finely pulverized to a degree not seen in other building debris. Mineral wool fibers have a short and fractured nature that can be attributed to the catastrophic collapse. Lead was present as ultra fine spherical particles. Some particles show evidence of being exposed to a conflagration such as spherical metals and silicates, and vesicular particles (round open porous structure having a Swiss cheese appearance as a result of boiling and evaporation)."

[bold mine]

ETA: So there are metallic spheres and silicate spheres, which had to pass through a melting phase, AND some of the spheres experienced boiling/evaporation!

Is it getting hot in here?

* * *



The boiling point of alumino-silicate (bentonite) is 2760 C.

ETA: Iron's boiling point is 2861 C.

* * *

[The Almond]

Gypsum wallboard. Note that Jones is doing a SURFACE analysis. It could just be a coating.

That all depends on the thickness of the coating and the size of the particles. It is possible that the EPMA technique is recovering characteristic X-rays from the entire particle, not just the surface.

[Apollo20]

Max:

I guess I was wrong about glassy spherical particles being non-magnetic. See the paper by J. C. Hower et al. entitled: "Petrology, mineralogy, and chemistry of magnetically-separated sized flyash." in Fuel Vol 78, page 197, (1999).

It appears that spherical particles containing as much as 60 % alumino-silicate, (with 20 + % iron), were found to be magnetic.

[BenBurch]

The boiling point of alumino-silicate (bentonite) is 2760 C.

ETA: Iron's boiling point is 2861 C.

* * *

Metal sparks get to temperatures like that IIRC.

[BenBurch]

That all depends on the thickness of the coating and the size of the particles. It is possible that the EPMA technique is recovering characteristic X-rays from the entire particle, not just the surface.

Still the sulfated part could be just the surface. He can't resolve the depth.

[catbasket]

Well, I've heard a couple of the stupider twoofers say that the government did it in such a convoluted fashion just so that you'd think that.

Ignoring that such a plot (cast of thousands) could never be pulled off in secrecy.

So in TwooferWorld the reason the POTUS and his minions killed approx 3,000 people is to make me think I'm a thicko? I knew that already ... he could have just sent me an e-mail, I'd have accepted that.

One of my personal heroes (Stephen Fry - Brit atheist, skeptic, comedian, actor, game-show host) has a phrase for that - "absolute arse". Sums up the 9/11 CT quite accurately in my opinion.

[leftysergeant]

Dang. Now I have to wade through a bunch of YouTube to find that clip where jones mentions finding manganese and barium, and trying to tie that back into his thermite woo-woo. Not sure whether he found it himself or is just blathering about someone else's work as supporting his.

Manganese is present in one of the initiators for thermite.

[The Almond]

Dang. Now I have to wade through a bunch of YouTube to find that clip where jones mentions finding manganese and barium, and trying to tie that back into his thermite woo-woo. Not sure whether he found it himself or is just blathering about someone else's work as supporting his.

Manganese is present in one of the initiators for thermite.

You'll have better luck looking through his presentation here. (http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/DrJonesTalksatISUPhysicsDepartment.pdf) Though, I have to warn you, it's full of crap.

Jones's finding of manganese in steel is akin to finding chocolate in a Snickers bar. Iron and manganese are abundant on earth, and they very frequently show up together in steel alloys.

It's no small secret that Jones is finding elements and forcing them to prove this theory. He found fluorine, but failed to account for the iron L alpha / fluorine K alpha peak overlap. Again, if you're an idiot, you will always find fluorine with iron because the peaks overlap.

[Sparky]

Has Bofors left the building? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question on how the uniform size and dispersion of the microspheres is proof of explosives.

[BenBurch]

Has Bofors left the building? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question on how the uniform size and dispersion of the microspheres is proof of explosives.

First I want to make him demonstrate that there WAS a uniform size and dispersion pattern. I think that "fact" was MADE UP.

We need a new word. What do you use for a reputed "fact" that isn't actually true? Maybe lact?

[WilliamSeger]

I'm sure this is painfully obvious to most people here, but...

I think the microspheres are very interesting, but until it's demonstrated that they were produced during the collapse, rather than before or after, there is no logical reason to conclude they are two effects of the same cause. And even if they can be related, it's going to be hard to pin down one particular cause unless you can demonstrate that it's the only possible cause, or at least the most probable cause. That's the fundamental problem with Jones' thermate analysis: You don't need to be a chemist to recognize the fuzzy thinking of saying that the presence of some thermate bi-products proves thermate caused the collapses, without considering alternate sources. Jones needs a chemical signature that can only be produced by thermate to make that case, and he doesn't seem to have one.

[leftysergeant]

The only thing that would be a positive signiture of thermite would be a high concentration of aluminum oxide dust. But I may be missing some other application of aluminum oxide that would be coomon in an office building.

There remains the big problem that no trace was found of thermite-cut steel in the wreckage, even with people looking for such. Just the fire fighters and union welders would have noticed it in the course of their duties on the pile.

[Sparky]

The only thing that would be a positive signiture of thermite would be a high concentration of aluminum oxide dust. But I may be missing some other application of aluminum oxide that would be coomon in an office building.


The aluminum fuselage of a jet airliner or the aluminum cladding on the outside of the towers perhaps?

[Sparky]

Has bofors abandoned this thread?

[Disbelief]

Has bofors abandoned this thread?

Just like all his others. He might do a fly by, but he won't post anything of substance.

[rwguinn]

The only thing that would be a positive signiture of thermite would be a high concentration of aluminum oxide dust. But I may be missing some other application of aluminum oxide that would be coomon in an office building.

There remains the big problem that no trace was found of thermite-cut steel in the wreckage, even with people looking for such. Just the fire fighters and union welders would have noticed it in the course of their duties on the pile.
Oops.
The building's facade was aluminum. Aluminm oxide in the dust? probably...

[Sparky]

Just like all his others. He might do a fly by, but he won't post anything of substance.

Ahh, what a shame. I was so hoping he would provide the evidence I was asking for.
/snark

[Alferd_Packer]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the microspheres are fly ash used to make the light weight concrete slabs?

[The Almond]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the microspheres are fly ash used to make the light weight concrete slabs?

Fly ash is usually reactive in concrete, forming CSH gel in a pozzolanic reaction with calcium hydroxide. That being said, fly ash usually contains a fair number of iron rich magnetic spheres, though I don't know their exact composition. They are nonreactive in concrete and could be released as they were.

[Max Photon]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the microspheres are fly ash used to make the light weight concrete slabs?



Fly ash is usually reactive in concrete, forming CSH gel in a pozzolanic reaction with calcium hydroxide. That being said, fly ash usually contains a fair number of iron rich magnetic spheres, though I don't know their exact composition. They are nonreactive in concrete and could be released as they were.


Good question.

Here is wikipedia on fly ash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash):


* * *

[Gravy]

For using the word "pozzolanic," The Almond wins today's Internet.

[Max Photon]

* * *

A primary goal of military deception (MILDEC) is to hide the sponsor at the expense of the operation.

Those who argue that nukes, space beams, or high-explosives were used are swimming against this current because all of the above are highly traceable.

One the other hand, I hope everyone can at least see the intellectual argument why - if the towers were brought down by controlled-demolition - thermite would be an ideal substance; thermite is simply not traceable, AND its very existence or use is cloaked by incredible ambiguity, as evidenced by this thread on the origin of the microspheres.

The inherent ambiguities around thermite are in part what led me to the idea of the thermite-dusted shock-tube (that, and the flashes seen in various videos that look like shock-tube flashes, yet are far too slow to be high-explosives such as HMX).

Get it?

If thermite were used to:


create phreato-thermatic explosions
heat-weaken splices
dust shock-tube
create highly visible and choreographed fires

AND enable NIST to say "NIST found no evidence of controlled-demolition using explosives...",

AND the catalyst is not traceable,

AND the catalyst is masked by ambiguity,

then I'd say the use of thermite as the catalyst to initiate and cloak the collapse of the towers is clever indeed!


MILDEC knows its game theory, that's for sure.


Max

* * *

[Mr. Skinny]

For using the word "pozzolanic," The Almond wins today's Internet.
I agree.

Plus, he wins for starting the next sentence "That being said..." like, of course we all understood what he meant by the first sentence, and thus we were now ready to absorb the true meaning of his post. :)


*shuffles off to look up "pozzolanic"*

[MIKILLINI]

* * *

A primary goal of military deception (MILDEC) is to hide the sponsor at the expense of the operation.

Those who argue that nukes, space beams, or high-explosives were used are swimming against this current because all of the above are highly traceable.

One the other hand, I hope everyone can at least see the intellectual argument why - if the towers were brought down by controlled-demolition - thermite would be an ideal substance; thermite is simply not traceable, AND its very existence or use is cloaked by incredible ambiguity, as evidenced by this thread on the origin of the microspheres.

The inherent ambiguities around thermite are in part what led me to the idea of the thermite-dusted shock-tube (that, and the flashes seen in various videos that look like shock-tube flashes, yet are far too slow to be high-explosives such as HMX).

Get it?

If thermite were used to:


create phreato-thermatic explosions
heat-weaken splices
dust shock-tube
create highly visible and choreographed fires

AND enable NIST to say "NIST found no evidence of controlled-demolition using explosives...",

AND the catalyst is not traceable,

AND the catalyst is masked by ambiguity,

then I'd say the use of thermite as the catalyst to initiate and cloak the collapse of the towers is clever indeed!


MILDEC knows its game theory, that's for sure.


Max

* * *

And using the aluminum from the airliners and the aluminum cladding of the towers created a thermatic reaction upon collision. Right Max?
Mildec knew this to create a cold spot and, later on, what the NIST would describe as fires on piles of debris. Now thats precision planning right there.
Except, revamping those airliners to be remote controlled to their destination..now there is a Big problem yet to be resolved, Max. (my apologies to everyone for the derail).

[DGM]

* * *

A primary goal of military deception (MILDEC) is to hide the sponsor at the expense of the operation.

Those who argue that nukes, space beams, or high-explosives were used are swimming against this current because all of the above are highly traceable.

One the other hand, I hope everyone can at least see the intellectual argument why - if the towers were brought down by controlled-demolition - thermite would be an ideal substance; thermite is simply not traceable, AND its very existence or use is cloaked by incredible ambiguity, as evidenced by this thread on the origin of the microspheres.

The inherent ambiguities around thermite are in part what led me to the idea of the thermite-dusted shock-tube (that, and the flashes seen in various videos that look like shock-tube flashes, yet are far too slow to be high-explosives such as HMX).

Get it?

If thermite were used to:


create phreato-thermatic explosions
heat-weaken splices
dust shock-tube
create highly visible and choreographed fires

AND enable NIST to say "NIST found no evidence of controlled-demolition using explosives...",

AND the catalyst is not traceable,

AND the catalyst is masked by ambiguity,

then I'd say the use of thermite as the catalyst to initiate and cloak the collapse of the towers is clever indeed!


MILDEC knows its game theory, that's for sure.


Max

* * *
Or;
Let the fuel on the planes light everything in the building on fire and let the buildings collapse on their own.






Nah...............Too simple.......carry on, Max

[pomeroo]

* * *

A primary goal of military deception (MILDEC) is to hide the sponsor at the expense of the operation.

Those who argue that nukes, space beams, or high-explosives were used are swimming against this current because all of the above are highly traceable.

One the other hand, I hope everyone can at least see the intellectual argument why - if the towers were brought down by controlled-demolition - thermite would be an ideal substance; thermite is simply not traceable, AND its very existence or use is cloaked by incredible ambiguity, as evidenced by this thread on the origin of the microspheres.

The inherent ambiguities around thermite are in part what led me to the idea of the thermite-dusted shock-tube (that, and the flashes seen in various videos that look like shock-tube flashes, yet are far too slow to be high-explosives such as HMX).

Get it?

If thermite were used to:

create phreato-thermatic explosions
heat-weaken splices
dust shock-tube
create highly visible and choreographed firesAND enable NIST to say "NIST found no evidence of controlled-demolition using explosives...",

AND the catalyst is not traceable,

AND the catalyst is masked by ambiguity,

then I'd say the use of thermite as the catalyst to initiate and cloak the collapse of the towers is clever indeed!


MILDEC knows its game theory, that's for sure.


Max

* * *


Max should stop slandering the brave men and women who defend this country and permit ignorant fools to spout any sort of nonsense they please.

[Apollo20]

Where I worked it was flyash, not fly ash..........

To sort out the mystery of the spheres you need data from lots of particles.

Average concentrations of Fe, Al, Si, Ca, K, Cl, Mn, Ni, Zn, V, S, etc are also of major interest.

[beachnut]

Fly ash is usually reactive in concrete, forming CSH gel in a pozzolanic reaction with calcium hydroxide. That being said, fly ash usually contains a fair number of iron rich magnetic spheres, though I don't know their exact composition. They are nonreactive in concrete and could be released as they were.
Are you messing up Jones's thermite ideas? He has made up the thermite plot and is backing in the false evidence. Is he a PhD?

To sort out the mystery of the spheres, you just have to look at the idiot who thinks they are proof of thermite. What other idiotic ideas can Jones come up with?

[The Almond]

For using the word "pozzolanic," The Almond wins today's Internet.

I thank you sir. Could I please have my internet delivered in non-sequential bills stacked neatly in a black briefcase? Just look up NWO protocol 12-B.3g2. Thanks a bunch.

I agree.

Plus, he wins for starting the next sentence "That being said..." like, of course we all understood what he meant by the first sentence, and thus we were now ready to absorb the true meaning of his post.

This is the pozzolanic reaction, which I swear I'm not making up:

CH + S = CSH

And to think, I went to engineering school for just over 5 years to learn that. The "CH" is a byproduct of the hardening of concrete. Fly ash supplies the "S", which stands for silicon. The end result is called CSH gel, and that is the substance that makes concrete hard.

[tsig]

Are you messing up Jones's thermite ideas? He has made up the thermite plot and is backing in the false evidence. Is he a PhD?

To sort out the mystery of the spheres, you just have to look at the idiot who thinks they are proof of thermite. What other idiotic ideas can Jones come up with?

All you have to do is look at where the spheres come from.

There are those that are stupid from birth and there are those that make themselves stupid for the word. Let them that can hear it hear it.

[T.A.M.]

I thank you sir. Could I please have my internet delivered in non-sequential bills stacked neatly in a black briefcase? Just look up NWO protocol 12-B.3g2. Thanks a bunch.



No, as per NWO Communications Memo 10101, your Internet will delivered through the usual protocol of 1's and 0's.

TAM:)

[BigAl]

I've looked for the citation that someone, maybe Lefty or Crazy, provided for a metallurgy reference and used to show that all the elements found by Prof. Jones in his microspheres is commonly found anywhere elsewhere.

Is there a one-page summary of the case against Jones and his microspheres? I can't find anything on Mark's fine pages. Microspheres deserve their own page.

What is the best citation for something that apparently hasn't happened; the release by Jones of the entire analysis of the elements in his microspheres?

[boloboffin]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3269290#post3269290